Are BCAAs any good for Fat Loss & Muscle Growth?

Diaz

Hi All – I am (like most) looking to reduce my bodyfat % and increase my muscle mass. I’m in the gym 2 times per week and Jiu Jitsu twice a week. Eating very healthy (fruit, veg, lean meat, legumes)

I seen the below advertisement for Athletic Greens Branch Chain Amino Acids and I was just wondering what the general consensus was on BCAA for reducing bodyfat % and increasing muscle mass.

For many people, weight-loss is an important goal for this year but what about your muscle mass? Often times with strict diets we lose not only fat, but muscle as well.

A quality Branch Chained Amino Acid product is key to help you lose the fat, but not the muscle.

In fact, a study from Harvard Medical School recently reported that doubling the daily intake of just one of the three amino acids in Athletic Greens BCAA's "reversed many of the metabolite abnormalities [of metabolic syndrome] and caused a marked improvement in glucose tolerance and insulin signaling."

Taking just a few grams of BCAA's in between meals and before your workouts each day can result in ASTOUNDING fat loss! All while sparing valuable muscle. BCAA's do this by assisting insulin sensitivity, pushing for preferential fat burning ahead of muscle tissue, while simultaneously triggering specific protein synthesis in the muscle.

Any experiences good or bad with BCAA or Athletic Greens BCAAs would be helpful?

Tx.

Hardonraging

I've been talking BCAA now for the past month or 6 weeks, twice a day on training days... I've done a fair bit of cardio, mixed with a tough resistance program, And i ruin a low carb / paleo style lifestyle.

Has it made any huge difference in terms of bf% loss?, it's very hard to say, I do find recovery is faster, coupled with ZMA, It could be a placebo effect, but i find i've more energy when i take it pre work out also ..

The supposed benefit's are the protection of muscle while on a cut / looking to drop bf%, I've noticed that I've not lost any strength of late, infact I've gained some what since taking it ..

But as always there's a multitude of factor's to take in to account, Some of the guys here have been using it for donkey's years so they may have a more informed answer ..

Doug Cartel

Last time I checked, BCAAs are produced in the body by breaking down proteins in your diet. These are then re-assembled into the proteins that make up your body. Under normal circumstances, you will not use BCAAS directly. It's only in extreme cases like recovering from severe burns that your body starts to process BCAAs form your diet.

That said, there are lots of people who take them and swear by them. Who knows really?

xgtdec

I take bcaa's mainly because it makes water taste lovely and ensure im drinking enough...any benefits after that id find hard to pin point!

Hardonraging

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Last time I checked, BCAAs are produced in the body by breaking down proteins in your diet. These are then re-assembled into the proteins that make up your body. Under normal circumstances, you will not use BCAAS directly. It's only in extreme cases like recovering from severe burns that your body starts to process BCAAs form your diet.

That said, there are lots of people who take them and swear by them. Who knows really?

I've heard Ian McCarthy say something similar... Orange BCAA is totes nyom tho !!

amazingemmet

With BCAA's I find there's a huge difference between my clients who take them and ones who don't. More so in men then women as men will tend to oxidise BCAA's for energy more readily then women. What I've found is you need to take a lot of them and mix your own ratio. Google "Poliquin BCAA"s recommendations" Most average sized people will be taking about 20-30g per workout.

If you haven't gotten any benefit out of them I'd suggest you need to take more then reevaluate.

Hardonraging

amazingemmet wrote: »

With BCAA's I find there's a huge difference between my clients who take them and ones who don't. More so in men then women as men will tend to oxidise BCAA's for energy more readily then women. What I've found is you need to take a lot of them and mix your own ratio. Google "Poliquin BCAA"s recommendations" Most average sized people will be taking about 20-30g per workout.

If you haven't gotten any benefit out of them I'd suggest you need to take more then reevaluate.

Emmet, If i might ask, I know i've spotted you mixing up your own Poloquin blend of BCAA, do you flavor it, given the mixer's come unflavored ?

amazingemmet

Hardonraging wrote: »

Emmet, If i might ask, I know i've spotted you mixing up your own Poloquin blend of BCAA, do you flavor it, given the mixer's come unflavored ?

I just put a fizzy vitamin C tablet in it and covers the taste fine for me. You could also use a squeeze of lemon/lime and some stevia or some dilutable juice mix. I also normally mix mine up with a lot of water so the taste isn't too strong.

Some people might argue that Vitamin C will surpress cortisol during the workout and not be 100% optimal. To me its a small difference.

Hanley

amazingemmet wrote: »

With BCAA's I find there's a huge difference between my clients who take them and ones who don't. More so in men then women as men will tend to oxidise BCAA's for energy more readily then women. What I've found is you need to take a lot of them and mix your own ratio. Google "Poliquin BCAA"s recommendations" Most average sized people will be taking about 20-30g per workout.

If you haven't gotten any benefit out of them I'd suggest you need to take more then reevaluate.

What sort if benefits do you see?

Serious Q. I'm all for ninja tricks to maximize GAINZZ

Hanley

Hanley wrote: »

What sort if benefits do you see?

Serious Q. I'm all for ninja tricks to maximize GAINZZ

Do you even lift?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

amazingemmet wrote: »

I just put a fizzy vitamin C tablet in it and covers the taste fine for me. You could also use a squeeze of lemon/lime and some stevia or some dilutable juice mix. I also normally mix mine up with a lot of water so the taste isn't too strong.

Some people might argue that Vitamin C will surpress cortisol during the workout and not be 100% optimal. To me its a small difference.

Have to say the tubes of fizzy vit c and multivit tables from lidl taste lovely. However with my professional hat on, sipping acidic drinks for long periods is not good for our teeth. But those on here eat so little refined sugars and carbs that I am sure its minimal.

I took BCAA for a while, didnt notice any difference. Maybe if your totally elite? Might as well have put them up my arse really. Trained in a place where everyone had tuperware containers with BCAA tablets and popped 3-4 after ever set....nonsense, your blood is swimming in amino acids if your on a load of protein, and your digestive system is on low power during exercise anyway.

JJayoo

Would it not be more cost efficient to spend your money on Glutamine instead of BCAA?

amazingemmet

Hanley wrote: »

What sort if benefits do you see?

Serious Q. I'm all for ninja tricks to maximize GAINZZ

Extremely reduced doms is the first one, as an example I done legs day of the GVT program A1 squats @100kg 4010, A2 leg curls @40kg same tempo and had literally no doms, mild tightness in the insertion of the hamstring on the pelvis but that was about it. I find I can handle multiple sessions in a day with no hassle.

On the client front I found the clients who followed the protocol had much less reported doms and better energy through the whole session. With women it was less pronounced effect but still better then with out.

I've also tried this with just large doses of Leucine 15-20g and it had the same doms reducing effect but I found session to session recovery to be not as good, still increased. I also found the poliquin formula better then other ratio's I suspect with the extra Lysine but who knows.

On the gelatine caps front I think to avoid them as I don't think they'll digest fast enough, no proof of this just instinct.

At this stage I've tried pretty much every workout formula going, nothing, whey, caesin, whey + carbs, Leucine, Bcaa's, Bcaa's+ carbs, and various combos of the above. Now I've had loads of clients to experiment on as well and my conclusion is Leucine or the Poliquin Bcaa forumla is the winner so far with nothing being in close third when doing intensification phases.

Diaz

JJayoo wrote: »

Would it not be more cost efficient to spend your money on Glutamine instead of BCAA?

Pardon my ignorance but what does Glutamine do?

Diaz

amazingemmet wrote: »

Extremely reduced doms is the first one, as an example I done legs day of the GVT program A1 squats @100kg 4010, A2 leg curls @40kg same tempo and had literally no doms, mild tightness in the insertion of the hamstring on the pelvis but that was about it. I find I can handle multiple sessions in a day with no hassle.

On the client front I found the clients who followed the protocol had much less reported doms and better energy through the whole session. With women it was less pronounced effect but still better then with out.

I've also tried this with just large doses of Leucine 15-20g and it had the same doms reducing effect but I found session to session recovery to be not as good, still increased. I also found the poliquin formula better then other ratio's I suspect with the extra Lysine but who knows.

On the gelatine caps front I think to avoid them as I don't think they'll digest fast enough, no proof of this just instinct.

At this stage I've tried pretty much every workout formula going, nothing, whey, caesin, whey + carbs, Leucine, Bcaa's, Bcaa's+ carbs, and various combos of the above. Now I've had loads of clients to experiment on as well and my conclusion is Leucine or the Poliquin Bcaa forumla is the winner so far with nothing being in close third when doing intensification phases.

So, If I am reading this right it is really more just reduction of DOMS that is noticeable benefit of taking BCAAs? Not neccesarily greater fat loss or muscle growth?

john_cappa

Diaz wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance but what does Glutamine do?

Very little IMO and is already in an abundance in everyone's diet (100 gram whey is around 18% glut ).

amazingemmet

Diaz wrote: »

So, If I am reading this right it is really more just reduction of DOMS that is noticeable benefit of taking BCAAs? Not neccesarily greater fat loss or muscle growth?

In regards to fat loss, I've seen mild increases in muscle mass while dieting down while using them. I had one woman gain 2kg scale weight over the course of her contest prep while dropping bodyfat, she used them every work out.

I think its one of these things, its only going to cost about 30yoyo's to try it out for 6 weeks. If you know your body and have the basics dialled in then you'll know how you recover/ perform with out and will be able to judge how they affect you. If you don't have the basics down then you have no real reference point so who knows if they'll do anything for you.

Diaz

amazingemmet wrote: »

In regards to fat loss, I've seen mild increases in muscle mass while dieting down while using them. I had one woman gain 2kg scale weight over the course of her contest prep while dropping bodyfat, she used them every work out.

I think its one of these things, its only going to cost about 30yoyo's to try it out for 6 weeks. If you know your body and have the basics dialled in then you'll know how you recover/ perform with out and will be able to judge how they affect you. If you don't have the basics down then you have no real reference point so who knows if they'll do anything for you.

Yeah, fair point alright. One last thing (Columbo style) Is there any particular brand you would recommmend? There seems to be 100's out there.

amazingemmet

Diaz wrote: »

Yeah, fair point alright. One last thing (Columbo style) Is there any particular brand you would recommmend? There seems to be 100's out there.

I reccommend making the Poliquin brand formula from myprotein/bulkpowders ingredients, the ratio is Leucine:valine:iso-leucine:lysine 4:1:1:1. To do it quickly with my protein ingredients, use 1kg of BCAA with 500g of leucine and 250g of lysine. Use a fizzy vitamin C tablet to flavour.

JJayoo

john_cappa wrote: »

Very little IMO and is already in an abundance in everyone's diet (100 gram whey is around 18% glut ).

It's widely used in hospitals as a means of slowing down muscle wastage after surgery and is used to slow down muscle wastage caused by tumors. It also has a positive effect on Growth Hormone.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/61/5/1058.short
"Ninety minutes after the glutamine administration load both plasma bicarbonate concentration and circulating plasma growth hormone concentration were elevated. These findings demonstrate that a surprisingly small oral glutamine load is capable of elevating alkaline reserves as well as plasma growth hormone."

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00334429
"In the present study, athletes participating in different types of exercise consumed two drinks, containing either glutamine (Group G) or placebo (Group P) immediately after and 2 h after exercise. They subsequently completed questionnaires (n = 151) about the incidence of infections during the 7 days following the exercise. The percentage of athletes reporting no infections was considerably higher in Group G (81%,n= 72) than in Group P (49%,n = 79,p<0.001)."

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/42/4/260.short
"High-intensity and prolonged exercise significantly enhances the levels of plasma ammonia, a metabolite with toxic effects on the central nervous system. The main purpose of the present study was to evaluate the metabolic response of athletes to glutamine (Gln) and alanine (Ala) supplementation, since these amino acids have a significant influence on both anaplerosis and gluconeogenesis................................Taken together, the results suggest that chronically supplemented Gln protects against exercise-induced hyperammonemia depending on exercise intensity and supplementation duration"


http://193.145.233.67/dspace/handle/10045/26600
"The aim of this study was to determine the effects of glutamine supplementation on performance, and hormonal changes during an 8-week resistance training program in non athlete male students. Thirty healthy non athlete male (age 21.25 ± 1.6 years, height 173.2 ± 3.2 cm, body mass 72.8 ± 2.8 kg, VO2max 43.48± 2.38 ml•kg-1•min-1) were randomly divided into a glutamine supplementation (GL) group (n=15), and a placebo (PL) group (n=15). Each group was given either glutamine or a placebo in a double blind manner to be taken orally for eight weeks (0.35 g/kg/day). GL and PL groups performed the same weight training program 3 days, each week for 8 weeks. The training consisted of 3 sets of 8 repetitions, and the initial weight was 80% of the pre-1RM. Subjects were tested for performance and blood hormone concentrations before and after the 8-week period. Both groups increased their performance however the GL group showed significantly greater increases in upper and lower body strength, explosive muscular power, blood testosterone, GH and IGF-1 when compared to the PL group; however, cortisol concentrations were significantly more reduced in GL group when compared to the PL group. It can, therefore, be concluded that within 8 weeks glutamine supplementation during resistance training was found to increase performance (explosive muscular power, muscle strength) and improved body composition (increased body mass, fat-free mass and reduced body fat)."

http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20123352562.html
" Data were analyzed through independent t test. The results showed that there were significant differences in post-test of aerobic and anaerobic capacity and body composition of football players. These results indicated that consumption of glutamine supplement combined with exercise leads to increase in aerobic power, anaerobic power, total body math, lean body math and decrease in body fat percentage."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bio.2474/abstract;jsessionid=0F8AB1B72765394AED58DA3CCE7BED85.d04t04?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
"Glutamine supplementation has prevented excessive muscle damage and suppression of neutrophil function, especially in ROS production activity, even during an intensive training period."

But more importantly it mixes with water and doesn't taste like sh1t, which is the problem with BCAA.

Doug Cartel

JJayoo wrote: »

It's widely used in hospitals as a means of slowing down muscle wastage after surgery and is used to slow down muscle wastage caused by tumors. It also has a positive effect on Growth Hormone.

I'm not sure anyone here is recovering from surgery.

john_cappa

But if you already have a diet rich in protein you already are ingesting plenty of glut IMO. So additional supplementation is unnecessary and has diminishing returns.

JJayoo

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I'm not sure anyone here is recovering from surgery.

Well if a substance was used as a means to lessen muscle wastage in a circumstance as severe as the recovery from surgery, would it not be deemed beneficial in stopping muscle athrophy? which is pretty much what everyone who lifts weights wants to avoid? Or maybe you're genetically gifted and have held onto every gram of muscle you have ever added to your frame?

Doug Cartel

JJayoo wrote: »

Well if a substance was used as a means to lessen muscle wastage in a circumstance as severe as the recovery from surgery, would it not be deemed beneficial in stopping muscle athrophy?

I don't know. If you have evidence that it is beneficial, post away. Don't keep me in suspense.

JJayoo

Doug Cartel wrote: »

I don't know. If you have evidence that it is beneficial, post away. Don't keep me in suspense.

Oh straight away sir

http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(89)91254-3/abstract
"EFFECT OF PARENTERAL GLUTAMINE PEPTIDE SUPPLEMENTS ON MUSCLE GLUTAMINE LOSS AND NITROGEN BALANCE AFTER MAJOR SURGERY"

"Twelve patients admitted for elective resection of carcinoma of colon or rectum were allocated at random to experimental and control groups (six in each) acid received a total parenteral nutrition regimen providing 230 mg N/kg and 166 KJ/kg daily over the first 5 postoperative days. In the experimental group the parenteral fluid was supplemented with a synthetic glutamine-containing dipeptide, L-alanyl-L-glutamine (54 mg peptide-N/kg per day) and the control group received corresponding amounts of alanine-N and glycine-N. On each postoperative day nitrogen balance was better in the experimental group; mean daily nitrogen balance with alanyl-glutamine was -1·5 (SE 0·4) g N/day and with the control solution -3·6 (0·2) g N/day. The cumulative nitrogen balances on the fifth postoperative day were -7·1 (2·2) and -18·1 (1·7) g N, respectively. With the peptide-containing solution intramuscular glutamine concentration remained close to the preoperative value whereas with the control solution it decreased from 19·7 (SE 0·9) to 12·0 (0·6) mmol/l intracellular water."

http://nutrition.highwire.org/content/131/9/2543S.short
The Effect of Glutamine Supplementation in Patients Following Elective Surgery and Accidental Injury
" Six randomized blind trials (two multicentered investigations) reported a decreased length in hospital stay in postoperative patients receiving GLN supplementation. After blunt trauma, GLN supplementation increased plasma concentrations, attenuated the immunosuppression commonly observed and decreased the rate of infection. Patients with burn injury have low GLN plasma and intramuscular concentrations; turnover and synthesis rate are accelerated, yet apparently inadequate to support normal concentrations. These data suggest that GLN supplementation has important effects in catabolic surgical patients, but the exact mechanisms to explain these events remain unknown, and more research is required to explain the apparent benefits of dietary GLN."


http://pen.sagepub.com/content/17/2/165.short
Effect of Glutamine-Supplemented Total Parenteral Nutrition on Recovery of the Small Intestine After Starvation Atrophy
"The addition of glutamine to TPN solutions significantly improved recovery of the intestine from starvation atrophy, and additional efforts to make it commercially available are indicated. This study again confirms the preferable use of a regular oral diet when clinically feasible and safe."

http://journals.lww.com/co-clinicalnutrition/Abstract/2004/01000/Glutamine__recent_developments_in_research_on_the.11.aspx
Glutamine: recent developments in research on the clinical significance of glutamine
"Based on a recent meta-analysis and up-to-date clinical trials, we may conclude that glutamine has a beneficial effect on infectious complications and reduces hospital stay (Not really a muscle related thing but still pretty cool). In critically ill patients glutamine supplementation may reduce morbidity and mortality. The greatest effect was observed in patients receiving high dose parenteral glutamine. A recent study with high dose enteral glutamine demonstrated a reduced mortality in the glutamine supplemented group. In the future more trials with larger numbers of participants are needed, especially with high dose enteral glutamine in the perioperatively and the intensive care unit setting.

JJayoo

john_cappa wrote: »

But if you already have a diet rich in protein you already are ingesting plenty of glut IMO. So additional supplementation is unnecessary and has diminishing returns.

But the OP is asking about BCAAs, Should the thread be instantly locked and the OP told to get a protein rich diet? I agree with you by the way and the only time I have ever used Glutamine is in the mornings if I was doing some fasted cardio or if I was playing a match as the Glutamine mixes very easily with water.

But if we were rats it would be sweet

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-007-0723-z
"Glutamine supplementation induces insulin resistance in adipose tissue, and this is accompanied by an increase in the activity of the hexosamine pathway. It also reduces adipose mass, consequently attenuating insulin resistance and activation of JNK and IKKβ, while improving insulin signalling in liver and muscle"

Oisinjm

In my opinion, BCAAs are only going to contribute to muscle recovery and a reduction in DOMS. This is through my own personal experience with them and through what I've read. Supplement companies are obviously also going to tell you they'll make you ripped and huge at the same time, it's in their interest. I usually only take them when I'm on a cut to aid the recovery process. Most of the year I reckon they're an added, unnecessary expense and since I'm eating enough my recovery should be fine.

As for glutamine there is a lot of conflicting evidence out there but through my own experience I definitely notice a difference when I supplement with it. I take 20g a day when going through periods of intense training. I'm just at the start of one of these at the moment and I'm lashing it into me.

I think with a lot of these things, it's up to you to do your own research and come to your own conclusion. There'll always be people for and against different supplements in the industry.

Oisín

Doug Cartel

JJayo, those were all about the post-surgical effects of supplementation.

Diaz

Thanks for all the replies - lots of science reading to get my teeth into here - Cheers.

john_cappa

JJayoo wrote: »

But the OP is asking about BCAAs, Should the thread be instantly locked and the OP told to get a protein rich diet? I agree with you by the way and the only time I have ever used Glutamine is in the mornings if I was doing some fasted cardio or if I was playing a match as the Glutamine mixes very easily with water.

But if we were rats it would be sweet

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00125-007-0723-z
"Glutamine supplementation induces insulin resistance in adipose tissue, and this is accompanied by an increase in the activity of the hexosamine pathway. It also reduces adipose mass, consequently attenuating insulin resistance and activation of JNK and IKKβ, while improving insulin signalling in liver and muscle"

I know the OP is asking about BCAA. But some one else brought up glut....

JJayoo

john_cappa wrote: »

I know the OP is asking about BCAA. But some one else brought up glut....

And Glutamine is a BCAA or is it? nope just a regular old AA