10k in 40mins?

IamtheWalrus

I just ran 3.54 miles ion 25 minutes. I have a 10k on August 11th. Is it possible for me to run that in 40mins if I train hard enough?

IamtheWalrus

Even 43?

pconn062

Probably better off asking to get this moved to the main forum. To answer your question, 3.54 miles in 25 minutes is 7.03 per mile pace. Sub 40 requires you to run 6.25 a mile for 6.2 miles. How did you feel after the 3.54 mile run, did it feel like jogging or were you working hard. 7.03 pace is a lot slower than 6.25 pace and I'd say it is unlikely, sub 40 is hard. How often do you train, post more info.

IamtheWalrus

Mods can this be moved to main forum?

I'll post more info then.

ecoli

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Mods can this be moved to main forum?

I'll post more info then.

Done

Rogue Runner

What was your last race time? I'd say you'd find it very difficult to get a sub 40 based on your times here.

IamtheWalrus

My fastest 10k was 47 minutes but I'm much fitter now. If I cannot make 40, with hard work, what could I make?

seamus

If that 25 minutes was going hard as you can, then I would say a sub 40 is out of reach in the short term. A sub 40 would be going almost twice that distance just over 10% faster. You do get a natural boost on race day (adrenaline, rest, whatever) and sometimes the conditions can align just right for you, but even then it wouldn't be that much of an improvement.

Your 25 minute pace is 4:24/km, which over 10km translates to more like 4:30/km, so 45 minutes. A solid month of training with at least one >= 10km threshold intervals run and one LSR per week (on top of whatever other runs) and I think you could probably bring your time somewhere between 43 & 44 minutes.

As mentioned though, to a certain extent that's plucking figures from the air and using myself as a reference point, i.e. how much I would be able to improve in a month if that was my 10k time.

blockic

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

My fastest 10k was 47 minutes but I'm much fitter now. If I cannot make 40, with hard work, what could I make?

Again, it's hard to judge without getting the full picture.

How long have you been running?
How many days a week do you run and how long?
Do you run each run flat out or do you incorporate slow runs too?
Did you participate in other sports growing up (fitness base)?

These would be just some of the typical questions otherwise the time that you could make can just be plucked from thin air.

IamtheWalrus

blockic wrote: »

Again, it's hard to judge without getting the full picture.

How long have you been running?
How many days a week do you run and how long?
Do you run each run flat out or do you incorporate slow runs too?
Did you participate in other sports growing up (fitness base)?

These would be just some of the typical questions otherwise the time that you could make can just be plucked from thin air.

How long have you been running? Ran 2 marathons and several 10k. Last marathon was 2009.

How many days a week do you run and how long? 3 days per week for about a month. Usually 3.5 miles.

Do you run each run flat out or do you incorporate slow runs too? All flat out.

Did you participate in other sports growing up (fitness base)? I am pretty fit. I'm skinny and have a good diet.

The 3.5 I did in 25 mins was flat out and I had very little left in the tank after.

ecoli

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

How long have you been running? Ran 2 marathons and several 10k. Last marathon was 2009.

These will stand to your overall fitness as the muscle memory kicks in and allows you to return to previous levels of of fitness easier than it is to attain new levels

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

How many days a week do you run and how long? 3 days per week for about a month. Usually 3.5 miles.

Can I ask if you did any bit between the marathons and the training you resumed last month? As I said before the fitness will come back quick enough however for the amount of time that you take a break from the sport you spend the first part of a training cycle coming back to that level of fitness rather than attaining a new level. My advice would be to slowly make training progressive and build your mileage base rather than focusing on trying to hit a huge PB in a very short space of time as this is a recipe for injury and illness

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Do you run each run flat out or do you incorporate slow runs too? All flat out.

Training three days a week you may get away with this but the compromise is you are not building the aerobic base as much as you should. Better to do 4-5 days with 1-2 days hard and others easy than 3 flat out in my opinion as you will find that with the strength your times will come down substantially. From my own training I would say that only about 15-20% of my running would be hard with less than 2% all out

You will see improvements with consistent training but there are no shortcuts so have patience put in the work and the results will come. Don't worry about the time in this race I would look to pencil in a more medium term goal of early september with a PB attempt personally

IamtheWalrus

ecoli wrote: »

Can I ask if you did any bit between the marathons and the training you resumed last month?

I trained for another marathon in 2011 but had to pull out 2 weeks before because of injury. I've since had physio and core strength workouts so I'm hoping that injury has gone. I only find out when I've run 10+ miles.

Apart from that, last September I had a personal trainer for 4 months where I worked out 3 or 4 times a week in the gym and followed a meticulous diet.

In between those I've just went for the odd job. I've kept a good eye on my diet also.

I think I should give up the idea of a 40min 10k but I would like to do sub 44 of possible.

If I started training now, and wanted to run a sub-3.30 marathon, when am I realistically looking at running one? My last marathon was 3.45.

RayCun

Why are you setting all these targets - sub 40 10k, sub 44 10k, sub 3.30 marathon - when you're barely back training? Do some training, get back to fitness, run a couple of races and then you'll be in a position to set some realistic targets.

ecoli

RayCun wrote: »

Why are you setting all these targets - sub 40 10k, sub 44 10k, sub 3.30 marathon - when you're barely back training? Do some training, get back to fitness, run a couple of races and then you'll be in a position to set some realistic targets.

+1 On this.

Base your goals on training not the other way around. I normally have a time in my head going into a training plan (normally months in advance) but only set it in stone in the short term build up as you are able to establish where you are in terms of your fitness.

IamtheWalrus

RayCun wrote: »

Why are you setting all these targets - sub 40 10k, sub 44 10k, sub 3.30 marathon - when you're barely back training? Do some training, get back to fitness, run a couple of races and then you'll be in a position to set some realistic targets.

I'm extremely goal-driven. If I don't have a target ahead of me, I won't bother running at all.

RayCun

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I'm extremely goal-driven. If I don't have a target ahead of me, I won't bother running at all.

I'd take issue with that self-characterisation.
If you're extremely goal-driven, why are you waiting until a month before your race - over a distance you don't seem to have run all year - to ask about training and pull a finishing time out of the air?
What happens if you don't hit your goal time? Do you quit?
What happens if you do? Do you quit?

pconn062

If you are determined to set a target then based on your 3.5 mile run I'd say sub 45 would be a good round figure and about right for your level for the minute. Follow ecoli's advice, slow down, stop doing all your runs flat out and run more often.

blockic

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I'm extremely goal-driven. If I don't have a target ahead of me, I won't bother running at all.

Why don't you set a 3 month, 6 month, then a 12 month goal if you are goal driven.

Running the 10k after only about a months focused training and you won't do yourself justice. You should think more medium to long term for your goals.

Cartman78

Give the 10k a lash as you are and then the time you do will be a realistic target to beat going forward

IamtheWalrus

The race is Aug 11th. I have been running 3 times per week since. This week I did 2 practice 10k. 48 minutes then 45 minutes. I used the Map My Run app and the second run seemed shorter which makes me wonder how accurate the app is. I had to stop 3 times for the 45 minute run.

With this in mind, what would it take for me to run 44 on the day? Is it possible?

drquirky

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

The race is Aug 11th. I have been running 3 times per week since. This week I did 2 practice 10k. 48 minutes then 45 minutes. I used the Map My Run app and the second run seemed shorter which makes me wonder how accurate the app is. I had to stop 3 times for the 45 minute run.

With this in mind, what would it take for me to run 44 on the day? Is it possible?

ummmm....don't stop next time.

rom

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

The race is Aug 11th. I have been running 3 times per week since. This week I did 2 practice 10k. 48 minutes then 45 minutes. I used the Map My Run app and the second run seemed shorter which makes me wonder how accurate the app is. I had to stop 3 times for the 45 minute run.

With this in mind, what would it take for me to run 44 on the day? Is it possible?

Phone GPS had a friend of mine swimming 1/4 mile across the Lee on his run according to what it tracked.

http://runneracademy.com/running-apps-vs-gps-running-watches/

average_runner

I suggest 2 goals for you:
- run the race without stopping and aim to beat that time in next race.
- just enjoy the race.

IamtheWalrus

1 week to go. Ran 10k in 44.21. Mapped by Map My Run so who knows how far I actually ran. Ran slow at start and finished faster. New tactic.

With this in mind, can anyone suggest a training schedule for my last week? I'd love to run sub-44 but sub-45 would suffice. Do I rest or run more?

ooter

i always wanted to run sub 40 for 10k,my PB was 41:09 and honestly thought i'd never go under 40 mins.my attitude to training was always to try and beat the time from my previous run but in recent months i started incorporating little tips i picked up on here like 1 hard run and 2 slow runs per week,i really slowed down on the slow runs,like 8 min/mile pace.i started doing 6 x 4min/km intervals on my hard run day with a 60-90 sec break in between each one.
i had the 10 k in the k club back in april pencilled in as my target race and thankfully i achieved my goal.since then i've started doing more 10:10:80 work (i'm training for DCM 2013) and i've gone under 40 mins twice more,i ran 38:16 in swords a couple of weeks ago.:eek:
hope you achieve your goal IamtheWalrus,if you can wait that long i'd earmark the 10 k in the k club next april,it's probably the flattest one out there..

rom

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

1 week to go. Ran 10k in 44.21. Mapped by Map My Run so who knows how far I actually ran. Ran slow at start and finished faster. New tactic.

With this in mind, can anyone suggest a training schedule for my last week? I'd love to run sub-44 but sub-45 would suffice. Do I rest or run more?

You are not going to fatten a pig on the way to market. you need a mini taper into your 10k so that you are fresh. You should be doing less rather than more in the week leading up to a key race with very light sessions if any.

IamtheWalrus

rom wrote: »

You are not going to fatten a pig on the way to market. you need a mini taper into your 10k so that you are fresh. You should be doing less rather than more in the week leading up to a key race with very light sessions if any.

I might take the week off. My last 10k on Sunday past I had a little niggle in my foot. Bets to rest it completely.

ecoli

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I might take the week off. My last 10k on Sunday past I had a little niggle in my foot. Bets to rest it completely.

Active recovery would have more of a benefit. Reduce weekly volume to about 60% and take the intensity down a few notches should leave you raring to go.

Depending on the niggle increased bloodflow through recovery running could be more of a benefit. If its that much of an issue get it looked it. Rest will relieve the symptoms not the cause (in 90% of cases)

Aidyt

RayCun wrote: »

Why are you setting all these targets - sub 40 10k, sub 44 10k, sub 3.30 marathon - when you're barely back training? Do some training, get back to fitness, run a couple of races and then you'll be in a position to set some realistic targets.

Good point Ray "do some training", you need to be strong to fend off the hardships of running at pace.
But in my opinion it's no harm to set a target for oneself......but its got to be in a realistic timeframe. Your sub 40min will come if you have the drive for it. Ran 2:46 in Dublin Marathon Last year in my my 3rd marathon because I had the drive and the patience to build up the work.....not bad for a 30 a day smoker until 5 years ago.
Keep the target but just move the time.!!

IamtheWalrus

The foot injury I got last Sunday has improved. It doesn't feel sore when I walk, just very slightly uncomfortable.

My 10k is tomorrow. Is it a bad idea to run? I really want to.

IamtheWalrus

Took the chance and ran. Foot felt ok. Disappointing 45.02 finish. I had been training with my Map My Run app and it must've been inaccurate because it says I ran 10.4k. I presume the course map was correct so I came up short. Think I'll book another race in 3 weeks and se if I can shave off some time.

ecoli

This like most of the advice in this thread will probably fall on deaf ears but ill say it anyway.

Whats the hurry? 3 weeks training is not going to make to much difference to your fitness. Your best of setting a realistic medium term target for a race perhaps 8-10 weeks down the line and structure training properly. Time trialling week in/week out you will see improvement but you are not getting the best bang for your buck. That is not to say you can't through in a few race efforts to keep you motivated (perhaps a Parkrun 5k or something after 3-4 weeks) but look to a longer term target race.

Train smarter and there no reason why that sub 40 can't be a realistic target down the line but have a look at training plans (Google McMillan or time to run 10k plans to give you an idea of how to structure training).

If you are serious in your target your best bet is to take a serious approach at it.

Aidyt

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

Took the chance and ran. Foot felt ok. Disappointing 45.02 finish. I had been training with my Map My Run app and it must've been inaccurate because it says I ran 10.4k. I presume the course map was correct so I came up short. Think I'll book another race in 3 weeks and se if I can shave off some time.

45mins is still a very good 10km time, well done. I agree with the previous comment.....this will take a number of weeks to get to where you want to be. From your comments I'm picking up that you are very impatient, this can be very counter productive when training. What I mean is, and I'll use a friend of mine as an example, I prepared a 10 week programme for him to bring his 10km time down and every week I spoke with him to ask how it was coming, the answer I got was he was very tired and unable to complete the tempo, speed sessions. These sessions were fine and should have been no problem for him based on his current level. He admitted to me in week 5 that on the rest days I'd assigned, he'd start off on target but this would develop into another tempo work out and his day of recovery was wiped out. He was very anxious to get his time down but in the end he cost himself a lot of time being too hasty.
You will get your sub 40min but only if you if you can do the following

1. be patient
2. get propper programme for your level
3. have drive

IamtheWalrus

I see your point and yes, I am very impatient. I would like to have gotten the goal achieved whilst the weather is good. What could I achieve if I trained well, if I ran a 10k race on October 6th?

blockic

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I see your point and yes, I am very impatient. I would like to have gotten the goal achieved whilst the weather is good. What could I achieve if I trained well, if I ran a 10k race towards the end of October?

How long is a piece of string....you should re-read the thread and take in all the good advice given (ecoli and others above have given great tips above). If you continue to post but don't at least consider the advise, people will lose interest.

If I were you I'd forget about the time and running as fast as you can week in week out. Focus on the training for 8 weeks, one interval run a week (speedwork) and plenty of easy/slowish miles, there are plenty 10k training plans out there.

Then the time will come but you need to be patient.

Clearlier

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I see your point and yes, I am very impatient. I would like to have gotten the goal achieved whilst the weather is good. What could I achieve if I trained well, if I ran a 10k race on October 6th?

There are huge variations in how much individuals respond to training. Some, believe it or not, don't really respond at all in some respects. Some improve slowly and some improve very quickly.

Your most likely avenue for improvement is counter-intuitive. If you run as much as you can at slow paces without getting injured you will almost certainly improve and probably quite significantly.

Seeing as I think that you probably latch on to stories and examples quite well though here's my own recent experience. I ran a 10k in 46:03 (7:24mm) after a few months of very little training which followed over a year of almost no running. I followed that up by running an average of 10mpw for 2 months. Then I got a bit more serious, running 3 - 4 times a week and doing 118 miles (average pace 9:04mm) and 130 miles (9:10mm) for the following 2 months. A week later I ran a 10 mile race at a strong but not all out effort at 7:13mm pace. That tells me that I'd be somewhere around 43 mins for an all out 10k race at the moment.

So, over about 9 weeks of training I improved by about 3 mins at 10k. The only way to find out if you can do the same though is by getting out there and training for it. Set yourself some process goals which might be as simple as finding a training plan that it challenging but manageable and sticking to it.

N.B. It's worth noting that at this stage in particular bang for your buck will be got at by building your base/running slowly, you'll get much fewer benefits from running fast and these will taper off after a while.

drquirky

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I see your point and yes, I am very impatient. I would like to have gotten the goal achieved whilst the weather is good. What could I achieve if I trained well, if I ran a 10k race on October 6th?

From my calculations, I'd say 33:14 is a reasonable target.

hardCopy

Give yourself an easy week after racing hard. Put together a decent training plan, add a week or two onto the length of the plan (to allow for injuries or other disruptions) and find a race that suits your timelines.

Training in the crappy weather can be extremely satisfying and enjoyable.

You say you are goal oriented, if 39:xx is your main goal, what are your interim goals?
How many miles/hours per week will you run?
Will you race a 5K in the lead up to this 10K?
Will you run certain intervals at goal 10K pace?

IamtheWalrus

hardCopy wrote: »

Give yourself an easy week after racing hard. Put together a decent training plan, add a week or two onto the length of the plan (to allow for injuries or other disruptions) and find a race that suits your timelines.

Training in the crappy weather can be extremely satisfying and enjoyable.

You say you are goal oriented, if 39:xx is your main goal, what are your interim goals?
How many miles/hours per week will you run?
Will you race a 5K in the lead up to this 10K?
Will you run certain intervals at goal 10K pace?

I don't really have a desire to run long term. I'm on a summer running buzz to get fit and lose weight. I'd like to do a decent 10k before November. I'd be happy with a 42 or 43 time. I've found this schedule but tbh, I doesn't look like much training to decrease my time.

McMillian

IamtheWalrus

I have taken some, if not all, of your advice and started a training plan. My next 10k is on October 6th. The idea of improving by time trialling was naive and impatient and overall, ineffective. I am following the plan to about 80%, varying speed work with long slow runs. I think I'm getting fitter.

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/racing/rws-4-week-10k-schedule-6-7-days-per-week/77.html

My question now is, as you can see from my plan, there are no 10k runs in there (only on race day). How do I gauge how fast I need to run/pace myself on the day? It's hard to gauge a target time.. Will I just know come race day?

Itziger

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I have taken some, if not all, of your advice and started a training plan. My next 10k is on October 6th. The idea of improving by time trialling was naive and impatient and overall, ineffective. I am following the plan to about 80%, varying speed work with long slow runs. I think I'm getting fitter.

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/racing/rws-4-week-10k-schedule-6-7-days-per-week/77.html

My question now is, as you can see from my plan, there are no 10k runs in there (only on race day). How do I gauge how fast I need to run/pace myself on the day? It's hard to gauge a target time.. Will I just know come race day?

But with your improved training and more or less following a plan, you must have a decent enough idea where you are time wise. Have you done any 5k races? I'm guessing not. Common sense will tell you that you can't keep up the pace of the fast short stuff but that you'd like to push on from the 'easy' longer run pace for the race itself. Imagine if in training you did a few 1k reps in 3:30. You'll hardly be able to keep that pace for the 10k. You might need to drop it to 3:45 or so. If, on the other hand, some of your easy runs were at say 5:00, then on race day you'd be looking to go a fair bit quicker.

Good luck btw. If you decide to keep up the running you'll find great threads here to help you improve and a lot of training plans online and elsewhere. Patience is not your enemy.

IamtheWalrus

I am into my final week of training. The race is on Sunday. As advised in my training schedule, I ran about 11 miles today. Can anyone look at my final week and let me know if it's advisable? It seems a lot of training in the run up to the race.

Also, in terms of nutrition, should I begin carb loading now? Any other pre-race tips are welcome!

Mon
4-5M easy

Tue
2M warm-up, then 4 x 800m or 3 mins, with 400m jog recoveries, then 2M cool-down

Wed
6-7M easy

Thurs
6M steady

Fri
Rest

Sat
4-5M easy, inc a few strides

Sun
Race

Itziger

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I am into my final week of training. The race is on Sunday. As advised in my training schedule, I ran about 11 miles today. Can anyone look at my final week and let me know if it's advisable? It seems a lot of training in the run up to the race.

Also, in terms of nutrition, should I begin carb loading now? Any other pre-race tips are welcome!

Mon
4-5M easy

Tue
2M warm-up, then 4 x 800m or 3 mins, with 400m jog recoveries, then 2M cool-down

Wed
6-7M easy

Thurs
6M steady

Fri
Rest

Sat
4-5M easy, inc a few strides

Sun
Race

I'm no expert but I'd take out Wed or Thurs. Probably drop Thursday and I'd only do a few k on Sat. That plan sounds a bit "advanced". Be interesting if more informed posters respond. Good luck with the race. Oh, almost forgot. No need to carb load for a 10k!!! You'd probably only feel bloated.

IamtheWalrus

Itziger wrote: »

I'm no expert but I'd take out Wed or Thurs. Probably drop Thursday and I'd only do a few k on Sat. That plan sounds a bit "advanced". Be interesting if more informed posters respond. Good luck with the race. Oh, almost forgot. No need to carb load for a 10k!!! You'd probably only feel bloated.

Thanks. The race plan is for times 35-45.

http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/racing/rws-4-week-10k-schedule-6-7-days-per-week/77.html

66_Lad

Itziger wrote: »

I'm no expert but I'd take out Wed or Thurs. Probably drop Thursday and I'd only do a few k on Sat. That plan sounds a bit "advanced". Be interesting if more informed posters respond. Good luck with the race. Oh, almost forgot. No need to carb load for a 10k!!! You'd probably only feel bloated.

Agree, my best 10K times were with v little work the 3 days before run. Gentle run Sat but def take Wed or Thurs off if not a high mileage runner

drquirky

TBH there is almost nothing between now and then you can do that will improve your 10k race on Sunday. Just run easy most of the days and maybe one short and snappy (less than 4k worth of work) session on Weds to keep the speed in the legs. You don't carb load for a 10k. Eat your normal diet.

IamtheWalrus

I'm still a bit nervous of what pace to run at on Sunday. When doing my training, I've disregarded times altogether. If the schedule said slow, I ran slow. I am now a week to go and don't know what pace I should go and what I'm capable of. Ideally, I'd like to run sub 40. Highly unlikely to happen but maybe I'm capable after my training regime. I don't know.

Maybe I should run a mock 10k this week and time myself to know how fast to run on the day.

Itziger

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I'm still a bit nervous of what pace to run at on Sunday. When doing my training, I've disregarded times altogether. If the schedule said slow, I ran slow. I am now a week to go and don't know what pace I should go and what I'm capable of. Ideally, I'd like to run sub 40. Highly unlikely to happen but maybe I'm capable after my training regime. I don't know.

Maybe I should run a mock 10k this week and time myself to know how fast to run on the day.

Jesus, man, you post asking for advice. A few of us respond in good faith - all saying, take it easy this last week - and then you chuck this up. I'm outta here.

hardCopy

I wouldn't do a 10K time trial in the week of your 10K goal race.

Have you done any shorter races or time trials since your last 10K race?

HelenAnne

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I'm still a bit nervous of what pace to run at on Sunday. When doing my training, I've disregarded times altogether. If the schedule said slow, I ran slow. I am now a week to go and don't know what pace I should go and what I'm capable of. Ideally, I'd like to run sub 40. Highly unlikely to happen but maybe I'm capable after my training regime. I don't know.

Maybe I should run a mock 10k this week and time myself to know how fast to run on the day.

You say you've disregarded times in training and just gone by feel. I'd say if a slow run feels 'very easy' and a regular training run feels 'easy', then a 5k race or shorter should feel 'hard' and a 10k 'medium hard'.

Just go out and race it - run at the fastest pace you think you can hold for 6ish miles. You may get that wrong in your first one, but the best training for racing is racing, so look at it as a learning experience!

Good luck!

IamtheWalrus

Itziger wrote: »

Jesus, man, you post asking for advice. A few of us respond in good faith - all saying, take it easy this last week - and then you chuck this up. I'm outta here.

No, I didn't mean run a race-paced 10k this week. I meant run a slow one and get a feel for the pace, and take a note of how long it took each km and adjust accordingly on the day.