"Women Who Love Too Much"- Robin Norwood

Beannacht

I have seen this book recommended on Boards before, and it was recently recommended to me after I ended a long- term relationship. I have never been the type to read self help books, but am astounded with the clarity I found in this book.

The author writes a lot about alcoholics and co- alcoholics, but the foundation of the book is about women who enter into relationships with men who allow them to repeat the role they had in their families as children. The woman then becomes the fixer, and spends her days trying to make the man happy, "helping" him get a job/ college course/ sort out his mental health/ self- esteem, etc.

I am just wondering has anyone here read it? Did you find it helpful? Did you find a recommended support group after reading it?

username123

Yeah I read it and I liked it a lot. Im not usually much for pseudo pop psychology - but I thought this book talked a lot of sense.

My father was an alcoholic so I was already attending Alanon when I read it - actually I might have been recommended it there. It certainly helped me to see that I was making bad relationship choices - and why.

rock chic

yes i read it a few years ago just after i split with my violent alcaholic ex husband the book helped me a lot and made me realise i defo did the right thing in getting away from him i had counselling after i read it before i got into another relationship would recommend to any1 that has been hrough a bad relationship

m'lady

I tried reading it, but it seemed to associate everything back to childhood- I can't see anything that happened in mine to make me make bad choices, yet nearly every relationship ( not including present one) so far has been a bad choice?!

Beannacht

m'lady wrote: »

I tried reading it, but it seemed to associate everything back to childhood- I can't see anything that happened in mine to make me make bad choices, yet nearly every relationship ( not including present one) so far has been a bad choice?!

How far into the book did you get?

The things that are mentioned that happened in childhood don't need to be huge, traumatic events. She does speak a bit about alcoholic parents and abuse, but there are a lot of things that come up that wouldn't be that out of the ordinary. Emotional distance is a big thing that comes up, for example- a child not being listened to or paid attention, or having a parent who was busy with work/ hobbies/ addiction and the other parent craved attention from them. I found it really beneficial to really sit and think about what my parents were like when I was a kid. I find it hard to remember a lot of stuff, but I do know my mother suffered with depression, so would have been "emotionally unavailable". This absolutely correlates with the relationship I found myself in as an adult, and how my role played out.

Maybe try pick the book up another time, and see if it makes any more sense.

OnTheCouch

I believe there is a subtle difference between those individuals who had a relatively stable, loving childhood and those who for whatever reason were not particularly happy growing up - and I would stress here that this need not include abuse or any similar horrific event, simply that the parents were perhaps a little too overbearing, or one was absent etc.

Therefore I think as adults, you can categorise people as those who approach relationships from a blank canvas point of view, ie they are under no subconscious influence from anyone else, their choices and their possible mistakes will purely be their own and so on.

Then you have those who pick their relationships depending on something that affected them deeply in childhood, like in the OP, where they try to repeat the cycles of their youth, or attempt to pick men who remind them of their father and so on.

Seemingly one of my worst habits (or so my friends say) is trying to play the amateur psychologist with everyone I know. Now whether or not you agree with this, I have noticed, with at least I would say a third (if not more) of the people I know well, the entire way they live their life as an adult is based on childhood experiences. And this is not only to do with relationships.

One friend whose father was very pushy as a youth, who never complimented him in anything he did has become insanely driven as an adult, he tries to excel in everything he does, constantly looking for the approval of his father.

Another, whose parents were quite lenient but more importantly emotionally distant, went through a major rebellion in his late teens early twenties...in my opinion to try and get their attention. Now, later in life, he feels a sense of immense guilt over his behaviour when he was younger and tends to hold his parents in an almost deified light, where they can do no wrong, talks about them as if they were saints etc.

A female friend of mine, whose parents split up when she was seven, has always gone for older men, some quite significantly older. It could be a coincidence but I would imagine she is looking for the father figure whom she only saw sporadically for most of her childhood.

Finally, another good mate of about my age, his mother is a very strict, traditional, Catholic Irish woman. Now this lad generally does better with foreign women, but he desperately seems to want to land an Irish girlfriend to settle down with. Now I asked one of his foreign girlfriends about his mother whom she had met one weekend, she told me briefly that whatever she (the girlfriend) did, it was not seen as good enough, she wouldn't stick around in Ireland very long, she'd mess the son about, she wouldn't get involved in the community and so on. So I think he specifically seeks out Irish girlfriends - longterm at least, so his mother can finally approve of a partner.

Now it is perfectly feasible that the people in question and some of you may find these statements totally preposterous and that these coincidences could apply to anyone. I do get the feeling however that there are a lot of people whose childhood experiences and relationships with their parents strongly influence their adult lives and decisions.

Brown eyed girl 4

Would agree with OntheCouch.
Unfortunately it seems that those that have issues with the opposite sex parent tend to be more likely to have dysfunctional relationships. This book is very good, once you see the issues it may be easier to break the cycle

OnTheCouch

Brown eyed girl 4 wrote: »

Would agree with OntheCouch.
Unfortunately it seems that those that have issues with the opposite sex parent tend to be more likely to have dysfunctional relationships. This book is very good, once you see the issues it may be easier to break the cycle

Yeah that's right. I personally haven't got any concrete examples to illustrate the specific example you gave, but I'm sure there are plenty out there that others can provide.

summer_rain

Hi
Can anybody recommend a support group for women who love too much, in Dublin?

Beannacht

summer_rain wrote: »

Hi
Can anybody recommend a support group for women who love too much, in Dublin?

There doesn't seem to be any around.
I have been burning the ears off my friends who read the book and those who I have recommended the book to!

Esoteric_

summer_rain wrote: »

Hi
Can anybody recommend a support group for women who love too much, in Dublin?

I don't know of any support groups for women who 'love too much,' in Dublin, but you could always try speaking to a counsellor who specialises in codependency issues perhaps?

irishgirl19

I'm almost finished the book.and while I do think its great,it does seem to be focused around difficult childhood's. I know I had a happy childhood and can't relate to that aspect of it

Wibbs

That's the problem with a lot of these self help type books Irishgirl19. They tend to lock onto a singular reasoning and run with that. Naturally as people want simple answers to complex questions and the authors life experience and worldview will naturally colour any theory they have.

I've read a few of these kinda books over the years. They seem to go in and out of fashion but are extremely popular*. I'll admit when this thread started I'd not read this particular title. I have subsequently. It seems to have peaked in popularity again. Three of my women mates have been passing around the book, so I grabbed the dogeared copy when they weren't looking The title attracted as I have certainly known women who would fit the easy line of "loving too much". Would even count a couple of exes in this.

Yes it makes some good points. Most of them are pretty obvious. However some of the conclusions of adult behaviour stemming from childhood experience I'm not so sure of. It's an old idea, but I think it too pat an answer for many. EG I've known many women who had good childhoods with good stable parents, who were clever, independent women with a strong sense of self and still ended up being attracted to, going out with, even settling down with gobshítes.

Why? Aye there's the rub. It's not nearly so simple as "bad childhood/lack of self esteem in a woman = bad relationships" Indeed as well as level headed women ending up with eejits, I also have known more than a few women who had bad childhoods, some near hellish, who have repeatedly selected for decent standup emotionally available men. While childhood influences are important, IMHO and IME to figure out if a woman(or man for that matter) is going to pick eejit or good man, you'd almost be as accurate by flipping a coin.

One element that I've seen influence future relationship history(in men and women) is the first experiences of romantic love in early adulthood. If your "first love" is relatively healthy and the object of same is sound, then it seems to set the template for what you may look for in the future. If it's not heathy and the person is a bit of a dick then the same applies. IMH this is as important, if not moreso than childhood experiences for many people.

A couple of other issues I'd have with this book(and others) is the danger for some of self diagnosis and even self diagnosis hypochondria. There can be the element of what I'd call horoscope thinking attached. Where descriptions are broad enough to apply to most so people may think the general is applying to them in the particular. Also if someone is already of an "addictive" character, the cure/recovery may become as addictive as the original issue. If support groups get involved that risk increases. People can become support "junkies". Not unlike folks who may have food issues. They become overweight because of food focus, then become calorie and weightloss focused. On the outside they may have lost weight, but the reasons for the gain in the first place are still there, if not more so with peer support.

I'd have a couple of other issues with it too, but I'm wearing out my keyboard here. :)




*I'd be asking the broader question; why are they significantly more popular with and aimed at women? I'd also question the level of quite bogus "facts" in them, facts now so entrenched they're believed. EG "women talk more and use more words than men on a daily basis"(tm). That "fact" was written in one self help book and has been referenced by many similar books since. It has no basis in science.

clairefontaine

I haven't read the book, so this is more a response to Wibbs post.

I would agree that not all bad or incompatible choices are due to childhood wounds, but would say that childhood wounds will lead you to bad choices. Maybe the book was more about the latter.

These books are popular with women IMO, because in the culture, women get less validation so these books you can find it. I do agree with you about possibly creating dependencies on them.

I have to admit when I read the OPs description in post 1, I thought to myself.... Maybe the title should be women who control too much...but then who'd by it but eunachised husbands, and that's not who it's written for.

Wibbs

clairefontaine wrote: »

II would agree that not all bad or incompatible choices are due to childhood wounds, but would say that childhood wounds will lead you to bad choices.

While I agree they can, I would not agree that they will. It can go each way. One of my great grandfathers was "fond of a drink" as they used to say. In todays terms alcohol dependent. He was not abusive and stayed the right side of the line to lead a relatively average life providing for his family as was the case back in the day. However his kids rarely saw him growing up as he was either working or in the pub and they saw the effect it had on their mum. With the result my grandfather and his siblings never touched a drop of drink in their lives. Like I say I've known enough people with "perfect" childhoods make daft relationship and other decisions and people from harsh childhoods make good decisions.

These books are popular with women IMO, because in the culture, women get less validation so these books you can find it.

One might argue they get more validation when it comes to emotions and relationships. The existence and popularity of such books themselves might be a reflection of that.

I do agree with you about possibly creating dependencies on them.

Yea that would be a concern for me. You see this on the male side with this "pickup artist" meme of the moment. Whole web forums providing a support structure for the meme and guys becoming dependent and narrowly focused in their worldview.

I have to admit when I read the OPs description in post 1, I thought to myself.... Maybe the title should be women who control too much...

Well the subtitle of the book is "when you keep wishing and hoping he'll change" so maybe That's a subject all of it's own. What did Wilde say? Men marry women hoping they'll never change, women marry men hoping they will. Both are disappointed.

Actually joking aside the subtitle may be better ground for debate and attention. I have seen so many women mates get into relationships with guys who were "fixer uppers", showed "potential" kinda thing. This seemed to be a major attraction trigger as seemingly fully rounded guys weren't as attractive to them. They then worked on improving the guy and it never went well. In essence yes the woman becomes the "fixer" but she wants to be and childhood experiences didn't seem to be much of a factor either way. This was usually when they were younger, under 30, but not always.

Morag

I've read it and honestly thought it should be called Women who don't' love Themselves enough.

Wibbs

Self esteem is another touchstone and panacea of the self help movement. Yes it is important, but it comes in many forms and IMH it's yet another simplistic answer to more complex problems. Many of the greatest monsters in human history had enormous self esteem and self belief.

clairefontaine

Wibbs wrote: »

Self esteem is another touchstone and panacea of the self help movement. Yes it is important, but it comes in many forms and IMH it's yet another simplistic answer to more complex problems. Many of the greatest monsters in human history had enormous self esteem and self belief.

But this is also why the psychs do place importance on self esteem, because its deficits can create victims and monsters, the two are not always seperate beings. It's common to find they are hand in hand too.

blueruin

Look into codependency, there is a 12 step programme called CoDA which helps people who have been in relationships with addicts and allow themselves to be abused. It doesn't need to be addicts though, it can be any kind of abusive relationship where you let yourself get treated like **** because you want to be loved / fear being alone, etc.

What I don't like about the codependency movement is that it sort of implies that it's the victim's fault for being such a pushover. The below book asks why are women blamed for getting themselves into this mess, and why wasn't that bestseller called "Men who love too little"?

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8254192-challenging-codependency?from_search=true

Wibbs

blueruin wrote: »

What I don't like about the codependency movement is that it sort of implies that it's the victim's fault for being such a pushover. The below book asks why are women blamed for getting themselves into this mess, and why wasn't that bestseller called "Men who love too little"?

I take your point, however it would be my view that the words used like "victim" and "blame" are part of the problem. They seem to get people's hackles up.

I'd not see someone who consistently makes bad partner choices as a victim and I certainly wouldn't blame them, however I would say that she(or he) is consistently making an unhealthy choice (and often enabling bad partner behaviour with it) subconsciously or no. Given that the majority of people aren't ****, they're making some effort to uncover them too. Sure it's comforting to lay responsibility on others for the choices we make, but it's not practically helpful in the long run.

The fact is the only one who can make a real change in our lives and the choices we make is us. That is what personal responsibility as adults is and with that comes a very strong power we all have in us, if only people would realise it. However you have to learn to own that power and owning responsibility for your own choices and mistakes is the first step in that. IMHO Tagging people as victims and placing the onus on the perpetrators is the easy way out and can only serve to lessen that power people have.

Personally I'd further retitle the book as "Men who love too little and why you keep picking them" Subtitle "How to avoid that in the future and be the best you you can be"