New entrants to the public sector and the Haddington Rd Agreement?

Paarthurnax

I am about to start work for the HSE at the end of this month after working in the private sector for the last 4 years. The question I have relates to Section 2.31 of the Haddington Rd Agreement

2.31
New Entrant Salary Scales: In order to address the imbalance between those who entered the
Public Service since 2011 and those who entered before that date, revised incremental salary scales
shall be prepared for same grade entrants to each public service sector as necessary to incorporate
the revision of salary scales introduced by Government Decision in January 2011.

http://www.lrc.ie/documents/2013/Haddington-Road-Agreement.pdf

My reading of this is that I should enter the public service on the same salary scale as those with the same qualifications and experience as my colleagues who started prior to 2011 and end the two-tier pay system that currently exists.
Unions don't seem to have a clue about this, I would like t hear feedback from anyone who can clarify 2.31 or who it has already affected (anyone who has entered the public sector since Jan 2011). Thanks

Dingle_berry

Paarthurnax wrote: »

2.31
New Entrant Salary Scales: In order to address the imbalance between those who entered the
Public Service since 2011 and those who entered before that date, revised incremental salary scales
shall be prepared for same grade entrants to each public service sector as necessary to incorporate
the revision of salary scales introduced by Government Decision in January 2011.


My reading of this is that I should enter the public service on the same salary scale as those with the same qualifications and experience as my colleagues who started prior to 2011 and end the two-tier pay system that currently exists.
Unions don't seem to have a clue about this, I would like t hear feedback from anyone who can clarify 2.31 or who it has already affected (anyone who has entered the public sector since Jan 2011). Thanks

Unfortunately no. The key bit is "shall be prepared". Prepared, not implemented, agreed, etc. it doesn't say new entrant scales will be abolished. The nurses are the only group I can think of that got a way out of the new entrant rates agreed and written into Haddington Rd.

Paarthurnax

Dingle_berry wrote: »

Unfortunately no. The key bit is "shall be prepared". Prepared, not implemented, agreed, etc. it doesn't say new entrant scales will be abolished. The nurses are the only group I can think of that got a way out of the new entrant rates agreed and written into Haddington Rd.

Thanks for reply on that. It is nursing that I am going to, but the nursing unions think that it only relates to Teachers but they are looking into it.

The only other place I can find mention of 2.31 is on the PSEU FAQs

What about the pay scales for new entrants introduced in 2011?

The agreement will result in changes that will see the end of the ‘two-tier’ pay scales introduced when the pay of
new entrants was cut by 10% (on top of previous pay cuts) from 2011.
New entrants’ salary scales across the public service will be ended and arrangements will be made to incorporate
them into pre-2011 pay scales, allowing new staff to move to the same maximum pay rates as their colleagues over
time.
These improvements will apply only to unions who make an agreement

http://www.pseu.ie/faqs.pdf

Heathen

Dingle_berry wrote: »

Unfortunately no. The key bit is "shall be prepared". Prepared, not implemented, agreed, etc. it doesn't say new entrant scales will be abolished. The nurses are the only group I can think of that got a way out of the new entrant rates agreed and written into Haddington Rd.

Is this what is going on then? I am a Firefighter and still have not seen any change.. i know of so many people that voted yes because we were led to believe that we would be brought back in line with our peers...?

So we wont be on the same money as the rest of our colleagues? My union rep told me that we would be earning the same as the rest of the crew that entered before 2011...?

I spoke with my local authority today and kinda got the same impression, that they heard nothing about increasing our pay...

Im pretty pissed off about this, and i know a good few more that are waiting for this adjustment to their wages too....

hmmmmmm not happy right now...

Dingle_berry

Unfortunately that's what our union tells us. It makes sense from the governments point of view - they're seen as giving something when really they're not.

It's up to our unions to prepare the agreement on this with the government. So we need to keep pressure on our unions to act sooner rather than later. Weekly or monthly emails asking for a progress report would keep it in their minds.

Another thing that I have noted is that most union members are older members of the profession - they're not affected by this payscale, some may not even be aware of it. So the union leadership sees it as something that its membership doesnt care about.

Paarthurnax

Unions are pretty slack when it comes to dealing with issues that effect "Junior Members". The new entrant 10% only involves about 12 in my region due to the embargo so our numbers are small. We'll just have to keep up the pressure and try and branch out to to other regions and disciplines to gather a bit of momentum. The 10% should really be backdated to July 1st when the Haddington Rd agreement came into effect.

BabyBirch

Paarthurnax wrote: »

Thanks for reply on that. It is nursing that I am going to, but the nursing unions think that it only relates to Teachers but they are looking into it.

The only other place I can find mention of 2.31 is on the PSEU FAQs

What about the pay scales for new entrants introduced in 2011?

The agreement will result in changes that will see the end of the ‘two-tier’ pay scales introduced when the pay of
new entrants was cut by 10% (on top of previous pay cuts) from 2011.
New entrants’ salary scales across the public service will be ended and arrangements will be made to incorporate
them into pre-2011 pay scales, allowing new staff to move to the same maximum pay rates as their colleagues over
time.
These improvements will apply only to unions who make an agreement

http://www.pseu.ie/faqs.pdf

I took this to mean that new entrants would have additional increments added to the end of their scale so after time you eventually reach the same salary as the top of the non-new entrant scale? I wish they would do something more immediate about the new entrant salaries though, out of four new hires in my office doing the same job, I'm the only one earning 10% less, just because my experience was in the private sector

The_Conductor

The wording of it is ambiguous- it could be read in any of several different ways.
It sounds like a few different actions

1. The ending of the second set of salary scales
2. The new starts over time reaching the maximum of the Pre-2011 salary scales.

Haddington Road provides for elongated increment periods for staff- aka you don't get an annual increment- you get 2 over a 36 month period- however even with this- there would appear to not be any direction on how its to be implemented.

So- Ignoring increments altogether as a separate matter- the undertaking is to abolish the post 2011 payscale and bring those onto to the base of the Pre-2011 scale.

There is a presumption in all of this that new entrants will be incorporated onto the salary scale at the minimum point of the scale. Only in exceptional circumstances, would new entrants be allowed incremental credit onto a point other than the minimum point- and each individual case, would presumably have to be cleared with PED.

Paarthurnax

The health service staff panel of trade unions (INMO, IMPACT, SIPTU, MLSA, TEEU, Craft Group of Unions and IMO), met with the HSE on Tuesday, 10th September 2013, which was chaired by the Labour Relations Commission (LRC).

http://www.inmo.ie/Home/Index/7679/10976

5. New Entrant Salary Scale and Alignment with existing salary scales:
The Department of Health confirmed that central discussions have not been held with DPAR as yet in respect of the new salary scales. They confirm that these discussions are awaited and will get an update for the Staff Panel prior to the next hearing with the LRC on 30th September 2013.

Painfully slow but the unions are working on it.

BabyBirch

Paarthurnax wrote: »

The health service staff panel of trade unions (INMO, IMPACT, SIPTU, MLSA, TEEU, Craft Group of Unions and IMO), met with the HSE on Tuesday, 10th September 2013, which was chaired by the Labour Relations Commission (LRC).

http://www.inmo.ie/Home/Index/7679/10976

I'm in IMPACT but in the education sector rather than health - so even if this panel sorts out new entrant salaries, that wouldn't affect me, right?

Paarthurnax

BabyBirch wrote: »

I'm in IMPACT but in the education sector rather than health - so even if this panel sorts out new entrant salaries, that wouldn't affect me, right?

Once one branch gets is sorted out, it would have to be made uniform across the PS. Education sector should get on to IMPACT to get their finger out and keep the pressure on.
There is also talk of having this all backdated to July 1st 2013.

BabyBirch

Paarthurnax wrote: »

Once one branch gets is sorted out, it would have to be made uniform across the PS. Education sector should get on to IMPACT to get their finger out and keep the pressure on.
There is also talk of having this all backdated to July 1st 2013.

Thanks, I'm a newcomer to the public sector and I find it hugely confusing - and my employer hasn't given the staff any information whatsoever on how they will implement HRA.

BabyBirch

Update now available on the Impact website:

http://www.impact.ie/Haddington-Road-Agreement/Haddington-Road-News/Haddington-Road-News-2013/Two-tier-public-service-pay-system-to-end.htm

The_Conductor

BabyBirch wrote: »

Update now available on the Impact website:

http://www.impact.ie/Haddington-Road-Agreement/Haddington-Road-News/Haddington-Road-News-2013/Two-tier-public-service-pay-system-to-end.htm

Sooo- abolition of the two tier payscales, however- does this imply a cut to the higher tier to reflect the abolition of the lower tier?

Sigh...........

Riskymove

The_Conductor wrote: »

does this imply a cut to the higher tier to reflect the abolition of the lower tier?

Sigh...........

No

all staff on the lower scales will move to the pre-2011 scales

BabyBirch

Riskymove wrote: »

No

all staff on the lower scales will move to the pre-2011 scales

But only if you're already at point three of your scale or above.

Riskymove

BabyBirch wrote: »

But only if you're already at point three of your scale or above.

something wrong there?

how could someone recruited since 2011 be on a third point or above

my reading is that when someone recruited since 2011 reaches their third point on the current scale they will instead move to the pre-2011 scale

a new single unified scale will exist for any future recruits with two new points at the start...therefore new recruits will have a longer journey to the max

BabyBirch

Riskymove wrote: »

something wrong there?

how could someone recruited since 2011 be on a third point or above

my reading is that when someone recruited since 2011 reaches their third point on the current scale they will instead move to the pre-2011 scale

Sorry, that's what I meant. Badly phrased
Although I was recruited last year and I started on Point 3 and am now on Point 4 of my scale.

adam88

BabyBirch wrote: »

Sorry, that's what I meant. Badly phrased
Although I was recruited last year and I started on Point 3 and am now on Point 4 of my scale.

How are you on point three. ????! A pm will suffice if you don't fancy telling all

BabyBirch

adam88 wrote: »

How are you on point three. ????! A pm will suffice if you don't fancy telling all

Long story, PM sent

dearg lady

surely depending on experience people could start higher than point 1 of the scale?

Heathen

I started in the public sector in October 2011 as a firefighter, will i see myself on the same money as everyone else on my crew now?

If so, when??

Im sick of being nicknamed "the ten percenter" at this stage when we all do the same bloody job!!

adam88

Heathen wrote: »

I started in the public sector in October 2011 as a firefighter, will i see myself on the same money as everyone else on my crew now?

If so, when??

Im sick of being nicknamed "the ten percenter" at this stage when we all do the same bloody job!!

I'm in the same boat as you but I'm actually weak laughing at your comment. But ye you will get the same wage as them.

Paarthurnax

Riskymove wrote: »

No

all staff on the lower scales will move to the pre-2011 scales

Still no word when the unions will get round to sorting this out, our union seem to be more concerned with long term acting staff, we'll just have to keep on pushing them.

adam88

Paarthurnax wrote: »

Still no word when the unions will get round to sorting this out, our union seem to be more concerned with long term acting staff, we'll just have to keep on pushing them.

Well siptu couldn't give a **** about new staff. They'll lying down and taking whatever the public service is tell them.

The_Conductor

dearg lady wrote: »

surely depending on experience people could start higher than point 1 of the scale?

Special sanction would have to be sought, on a case-by-case basis, for any deviations from starting on the minimum point of the salary scale. The only leeway is for pre-existing public sector employees, in which case, they would start on the point closest to their current salary point (without taking a paycut).

No- people with experience would not normally start at a point higher than the first point- the only sector where this is routinely ignored- is the teaching profession- where the salary scale is supplemented with numerous additional payments- for having a degree, for having a hdip, for qualifications in certain subjects, for posts of responsibility (etc etc etc).

For normal public sector employees- nope.

MouseTail

The_Conductor wrote: »

No- people with experience would not normally start at a point higher than the first point- the only sector where this is routinely ignored- is the teaching profession- where the salary scale is supplemented with numerous additional payments- for having a degree, for having a hdip, for qualifications in certain subjects, for posts of responsibility (etc etc etc).

For normal public sector employees- nope.

The allowances for new entrant teachers is gone.

The_Conductor

MouseTail wrote: »

The allowances for new entrant teachers is gone.

All of them? It was normal for the allowances to often be slightly higher than the headline salary!

MouseTail

The_Conductor wrote: »

All of them? It was normal for the allowances to often be slightly higher than the headline salary!

Yep, all of them.

emt123

MouseTail wrote: »

Yep, all of them.

I am retained firefighter for 1 year and currently on 10% less will I be moved in line with the pre 10% rates and also is there a refund due ??? Does anybody know if this has been introduced yet or how I should go about finding out many thanks for any help on the issue .....

BabyBirch

Got an email from our shop steward today, apparently a circular on the integrated payscale is "imminent", and additional pay will only be backdated to November 1st, not July 1st.

Also, he clarified that when you reach point 3 of your post-2011 scale you only move up to point 1 of the pre-2011 scale for your grade. So you will reach the top of the scale two years after pre-2011 colleagues.

Paarthurnax

BabyBirch wrote: »

Got an email from our shop steward today, apparently a circular on the integrated payscale is "imminent", and additional pay will only be backdated to November 1st, not July 1st.

Also, he clarified that when you reach point 3 of your post-2011 scale you only move up to point 1 of the pre-2011 scale for your grade. So you will reach the top of the scale two years after pre-2011 colleagues.

So what we can gather from that is we will be for argument sake currently level 4 and moving back to level 2 on the old scale while our colleagues who got in before the 10% cut will still be two pay grades above us with the same qualifications and experience as ourselves.

That doesn't sound like the two tier system has been resolved in my view.

I will get €1000 more for this year whereas but still €2500 less than my colleagues who started prior to the 10% cut.

BabyBirch

Paarthurnax wrote: »

So what we can gather from that is we will be for argument sake currently level 4 and moving back to level 2 on the old scale while our colleagues who got in before the 10% cut will still be two pay grades above us with the same qualifications and experience as ourselves.

That doesn't sound like the two tier system has been resolved in my view.

I will get €1000 more for this year whereas but still €2500 less than my colleagues who started prior to the 10% cut.

Yes that's exactly it, and even if you move to a new role you will always be paid less. You will only attain parity with your pre-2011 colleagues if you reach the top of your grade and never change job.

Plus I don't see why any increases will only be backdated to November 1 - they were quick enough to bring in the pay cuts and extra hours from July.

aidom

How would that work for AO?

First point on pre-2011 scale is less than third point on new entrant scale...

BabyBirch

aidom wrote: »

How would that work for AO?

First point on pre-2011 scale is less than third point on new entrant scale...

Apparently some grades will join the pre-2011 payscale after only one year, could that be it?

http://www.impact.ie/Haddington-Road-Agreement/Haddington-Road-News/Haddington-Road-News-2013/Two-tier-public-service-pay-system-to-end.htm

aidom

BabyBirch wrote: »

Apparently some grades will join the pre-2011 payscale after only one year, could that be it?

http://www.impact.ie/Haddington-Road-Agreement/Haddington-Road-News/Haddington-Road-News-2013/Two-tier-public-service-pay-system-to-end.htm

Point 2 on the New scale is still higher than than point 1 of the old AO scale. I'm on point 2 now so if I went to point 1 on the old scale then I'd be earning less.

If anything it seems that the clerical grades go after 1 year and AO wait two years.

garhjw

Does how good you are at your job have nothing to do with it?

The_Conductor

garhjw wrote: »

Does how good you are at your job have nothing to do with it?

Progression on the scale is subject to satisfactory job performance, as measured by your annual PMDS assessment. It is not an automatic entitlement. Lots of people don't get their increments. Akin to 'flexi-time' in certain offices/departments- its a privilege, not a right. Just because its there- doesn't mean you get it.

BabyBirch

aidom wrote: »

Point 2 on the New scale is still higher than than point 1 of the old AO scale. I'm on point 2 now so if I went to point 1 on the old scale then I'd be earning less.

If anything it seems that the clerical grades go after 1 year and AO wait two years.

That's how it was explained to me by the Impact rep - for me Point 1 on the post-2011 scale is higher than Point 3 on my current scale

aidom

BabyBirch wrote: »

That's how it was explained to me by the Impact rep - for me Point 1 on the post-2011 scale is higher than Point 3 on my current scale

For certain grades point 1 on the old scale is higher than point 3 on the old scale, but the AO scale jumps are quite high so point 1 on the old scale is lower than both the third and second points on the new scale.

AO Standard Scale - OLD SCALE

31,619 - 34,420 - 38,004 - 40,734 - 43,463 - 46,202 - 48,930 - 51,653 - 53,5321 - 55,4152

NRP - Administrative officer standard scale - PCC - NEW SCALE

29,922 - 32,575 - 35,970 - 38,554 - 41,140 - 43,734 - 46,319 - 48,896 - 50,6831 - 52,4652

So if I was to be moved to the old scale it would have to be on to the same point or I'd be paid less.

http://www.impact.ie/Your-Sector/Public-Sector/Civil-Service/Civil-service-salary-scales.htm

BabyBirch

aidom wrote: »

For certain grades point 1 on the old scale is higher than point 3 on the old scale, but the AO scale jumps are quite high so point 1 on the old scale is lower than both the third and second points on the new scale.

AO Standard Scale - OLD SCALE

31,619 - 34,420 - 38,004 - 40,734 - 43,463 - 46,202 - 48,930 - 51,653 - 53,5321 - 55,4152

NRP - Administrative officer standard scale - PCC - NEW SCALE

29,922 - 32,575 - 35,970 - 38,554 - 41,140 - 43,734 - 46,319 - 48,896 - 50,6831 - 52,4652

So if I was to be moved to the old scale it would have to be on to the same point or I'd be paid less.

http://www.impact.ie/Your-Sector/Public-Sector/Civil-Service/Civil-service-salary-scales.htm

I know what you mean but I don't know how the integrated scale would work in that case. I wonder does the imminent circular mean before Christmas?

aidom

aidom wrote: »

For certain grades point 1 on the old scale is higher than point 3 on the old scale, but the AO scale jumps are quite high so point 1 on the old scale is lower than both the third and second points on the new scale.

AO Standard Scale - OLD SCALE

31,619 - 34,420 - 38,004 - 40,734 - 43,463 - 46,202 - 48,930 - 51,653 - 53,5321 - 55,4152

NRP - Administrative officer standard scale - PCC - NEW SCALE

29,922 - 32,575 - 35,970 - 38,554 - 41,140 - 43,734 - 46,319 - 48,896 - 50,6831 - 52,4652

So if I was to be moved to the old scale it would have to be on to the same point or I'd be paid less.

http://www.impact.ie/Your-Sector/Public-Sector/Civil-Service/Civil-service-salary-scales.htm

The scale you are quoting as AO Standard Scale - OLD SCALE is for recruits to Civil Service before 1995 - class B PRSI.

The Proper AO Standard Scale - OLD Scale - A Class PRSI is:
33,247 - 36,194 - 39,967 - 42,838 - 45,711 - 48,593 - 51,466 - 54,329 - 56,3141 - 58,2942

aidom

raffles wrote: »

The scale you are quoting as AO Standard Scale - OLD SCALE is for recruits to Civil Service before 1995 - class B PRSI.

The Proper AO Standard Scale - OLD Scale - A Class PRSI is:
33,247 - 36,194 - 39,967 - 42,838 - 45,711 - 48,593 - 51,466 - 54,329 - 56,3141 - 58,2942

So instead of going to 35,970 I'd go to 33,247. The third point on the new scale is still higher than than the first point on the old scale.

Rock of Gibraltar

It is likely that this will be handled in the same way as any promotion to a higher scale in the civil service, that you go onto the point immediately higher to your current point on your current scale.
So you would go to €36,194 rather than €35,970

That's how it currently works in circular 34/1977

yecood

Hi, does anybody have any up to date information on the progress of Haddington rd section 2.31, I have received a contract from the hse and I need to sign it within the next few days, iv only ever worked in the private sector so I am a new entrant.

donegal11

yecood wrote: »

Hi, does anybody have any up to date information on the progress of Haddington rd section 2.31, I have received a contract from the hse and I need to sign it within the next few days, iv only ever worked in the private sector so I am a new entrant.

Would say so, I wouldn't worry about this "new" pay scale, it's all smoke and mirrors as a new entrant you'll still be in a worse(compared to existing staff) position regarding pay the only real difference is adding more steps on the ladder and pension wise till be career average so when you do reach the top it'll have substantially less an effect then before

yecood

Thanks, just wondering does it make a difference if I am starting in the HSE on point 4 of the new entrant scale? Also the contract I got didn't mention anything about Haddington road or about moving away from the two tier salary system, the only thing they highlighted was that I will have to work 37 hrs a week.

adam88

yecood wrote: »

Thanks, just wondering does it make a difference if I am starting in the HSE on point 4 of the new entrant scale? Also the contract I got didn't mention anything about Haddington road or about moving away from the two tier salary system, the only thing they highlighted was that I will have to work 37 hrs a week.

Did it mention that you will start at point 4????? Why are you starting on point 4

yecood

Yes, I am currently on point 4 in the private sector (equivalent to point 4 on the public sector higher scale) as I have more than 4 years experience. all of this experience is in private hospitals which now makes me a new entrant to the lower scale at point 4. Hope this makes it clearer. My question is, when they get rid of the lower scale, will I be brought back to point 4 on the new scale and be earning the same as my colleagues?

The_Conductor

yecood wrote: »

Yes, I am currently on point 4 in the private sector (equivalent to point 4 on the public sector higher scale) as I have more than 4 years experience. all of this experience is in private hospitals which now makes me a new entrant to the lower scale at point 4. Hope this makes it clearer. My question is, when they get rid of the lower scale, will I be brought back to point 4 on the new scale and be earning the same as my colleagues?

Just because you have private sector experience, and are currently on the equivalent of Point 4 on the public sector payscale- does not mean you enter the public sector on Point 4 of the public sector payscale.

Its far from unusual for people to have to take a sometimes significant cut in pay back to Point 1- in lieu of getting the public sector contract- and indeed the directive is that all new entrants are to be on point 1 of the scale- aside from exceptional circumstances, and exceptional circumstances would have to be cleared with PED on a case-by-case basis.

Do not assume that you automatically get Point 4...........

adam88

The_Conductor wrote: »

Just because you have private sector experience, and are currently on the equivalent of Point 4 on the public sector payscale- does not mean you enter the public sector on Point 4 of the public sector payscale.

Its far from unusual for people to have to take a sometimes significant cut in pay back to Point 1- in lieu of getting the public sector contract- and indeed the directive is that all new entrants are to be on point 1 of the scale- aside from exceptional circumstances, and exceptional circumstances would have to be cleared with PED on a case-by-case basis.

Do not assume that you automatically get Point 4...........

What he said seems correct