Calls for all students in Wales to be taught in Welsh

lewiscymru

"ALL pupils in Wales should have to learn up to a third of their lessons through the medium of Welsh, a language campaign group claims today.

Teaching Welsh as a second language, like French or Spanish, should be scrapped in Wales, according to Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, the Welsh language society.

In a policy paper to the Welsh Government, the group is calling for teaching at least a third of the curriculum through the medium of Welsh in every school."

Source: http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/call-pupils-wales-taught-welsh-4752685

Do you think this could be done in Ireland, or is Wales a completely different situation?

It happens in Catalonia (with Catalan and Spanish) and is hugely successful.

I am pie

I don't think it should, could or will be done in Wales or Ireland.

Chucken

lewiscymru wrote: »

Do you think this could be done in Ireland,

No. We dont know any Welsh

RandomName2

Well Wales is being subb'd by the UK so it doesn't really matter if goes backwards economically.

Mind you, in Ireland it has long been a burden that Irish is treated as the "primary language".

Napper Hawkins

I hate language Nazis.

Skid X

Not going to happen anytime soon, either here or in Wales.

lewiscymru

Skid X wrote: »

Not going to happen anytime soon, either here or in Wales.

I'm not sure - there was an important meeting with the First Minister of Wales and the future of the Welsh language following the census results. We'll here their plans soon, I think...

Gone Drinking

This is a good watch in relation to learning languages that aren't spoken too widely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlQXPNwrqo

awec

The fact that people are forced to study it here is counterproductive enough. Forcing people to have part of their entire curriculum taught in Irish is more than a few steps too far.

Iwasfrozen

No I don't support this, there's enough time wasted on Irish in the primary school curriculum.

VONSHIRACH

Is this another of Warren Gatland's plans?

Dostoevsky

lewiscymru wrote: »

"ALL pupils in Wales should have to learn up to a third of their lessons through the medium of Welsh, a language campaign group claims today.

Teaching Welsh as a second language, like French or Spanish, should be scrapped in Wales, according to Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, the Welsh language society.

In a policy paper to the Welsh Government, the group is calling for teaching at least a third of the curriculum through the medium of Welsh in every school."

Source: http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/call-pupils-wales-taught-welsh-4752685

Do you think this could be done in Ireland, or is Wales a completely different situation?

It happens in Catalonia (with Catalan and Spanish) and is hugely successful.

Long overdue, even if those who wish to continue to impose English medium only education upon the Irish and Welsh will be incensed. Given that the overwhelming number of Irish and Welsh language activists have a far superior command of the Queen's English than these narrow-minded rightwing people, the latter's hostility to non-English languages being promoted for a small while each day over the incessant promotion of English each day merely affirms their lamentable insecurity in the face of difference.

shruikan2553

Theres enough problems with maths and writing in our first language. Does anyone really want to learn about différéntiation in Irish?

I thought welsh is learnt well enough in Wales to be used, still think its the "true welsh" trying to force their opinions on others though.

MadsL

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Long overdue, even if those who wish to continue to impose English medium only education upon the Irish and Welsh will be incensed. Given that the overwhelming number of Irish and Welsh language activists have a far superior command of the Queen's English than these narrow-minded rightwing people, the latter's hostility to non-English languages being promoted for a small while each day over the incessant promotion of English each day merely affirms their lamentable insecurity in the face of difference.

promotion of English?

Please explain.

Ruudi_Mentari

Most welsh i encountered tended to know more of their native celtic tongue than we tend to anyhow so this is only reinforcing our own ignorance.....

lewiscymru

Plaid Cymru (was 2nd party in Wales, now 3rd, one seat behind the Torys) takes it further. They want to have 1/3 of all lessons in English, 1/3 in Welsh and another 1/3 in French/German.

Sunnyisland

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch (pronounced [ˌɬanvairˌpuɬɡwɨ̞nˌɡɨ̞ɬɡoˌɡɛrəˌχwərnˌdrobuɬˌɬantɨ̞ˌsiljoˌɡoɡoˈɡoːχ

Great craic all together :-)

squod

Wales forum

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>

Micky Dolenz

awec wrote: »

The fact that people are forced to study it here is counterproductive enough. Forcing people to have part of their entire curriculum taught in Irish is more than a few steps too far.

It worked for the English when they taught us English here.

Rabble rabble.

wexie

I would be delighted if my kids were to receive some of their education in a language other than English.

Would be even better if it was a language with an actual use and future though.

ZeitgeistGlee

Dostoevsky wrote: »

Long overdue, even if those who wish to continue to impose English medium only education upon the Irish and Welsh will be incensed. Given that the overwhelming number of Irish and Welsh language activists have a far superior command of the Queen's English than these narrow-minded rightwing people, the latter's hostility to non-English languages being promoted for a small while each day over the incessant promotion of English each day merely affirms their lamentable insecurity in the face of difference.

• Opening remark is an insult to the opposing side of the discussion.
  
  
• Asserts linguistic superiority over the opposing side.
  
  
• Insults opposing side again.
  
  
• Asserts opposing side is always hostile.
  
  
• Insults the opposing side for a third time.

And you wonder why they're hostile? :rolleyes:

krudler

Ah Welsh, the language vowels forgot

DanWall

How many multi-national companies require Welsh or Irish to work for them? It may be a bonus to have French or German, or even Chinese now, it is bad enough getting a pass in other subjects without having to learn a language.

squod

krudler wrote: »

Ah Welsh, the llwngggg vowels forgot

fyp

lewiscymru

Skid X wrote: »

Not going to happen anytime soon, either here or in Wales.

krudler wrote: »

Ah Welsh, the language vowels forgot

Welsh had 7 vowels

Ruudi_Mentari

I am comfortable enough, with English as such a universal and definitive language to convey and express many things just not the way it was enforced but if that's the way, then we should consider doing likewise and save our own because anyone else in the world who had it put on them can also speak their own language.. far as I know which is embarrassing for us.

and I have bn asked to recite some native tongue, but I couldn't string a sentence together which was embarrassing of course. take it upon yourself they'll say, but that's rarely how it works for anyone once we leave the education system is it

ZeitgeistGlee

lewiscymru wrote: »

Welsh had 7 vowels

The English stole them didn't they? :pac:

lewiscymru

Need to start proofreading

ZeitgeistGlee

Ruudi_Mentari wrote: »

I am comfortable enough, with English as such a universal and definitive language to convey and express many things just not the way it was enforced but if that's the way, then we should consider doing likewise and save our own because anyone else in the world who had it put on them can also speak their own language.. far as I know which is embarrassing for us.

and I have bn asked to recite some native tongue, but I couldn't string a sentence together which was embarrassing of course. take it upon yourself they'll say, but that's rarely how it works for anyone once we leave the education system is it

This line of thought has honestly always confused me.

We've been an independent nation for the last hundred years nearly, and Irish has been a mandatory subject of education for about that long as well (indeed you failed your State Exams for failing Irish alone) so how is it that English is the enforced language?

To say that something is enforced would require that Irish be purposely suppressed and yet that's entirely untrue. There's huge funding and support for Irish at all levels of society, the fact that English remains the primary tongue is simply down to it being objectively a more useful language to communicate through.

I respect anyone who loves the Irish language as part of our shared traditions, and I wish them all the best in their pursuit of that passion. I do not however respect the attitude of certain activists to force that language on everyone simply because they view it as a more natural or traditionally-appropriate language than English. It's exactly the same oppression they claim they're faced with every day and yet they're entirely satisfied with doing it when it suits them.

I also find the "But other countries speak their own language" to be a bit of a juvenile argument, it reeks of peer-pressure, it almost makes me want to reply with "If the other countries all ran off cliffs would you do the same?". I do speak my own language, my language is English and it's an official language of Ireland.

stefan idiot jones

Rwyf wrth fy modd y gymuned.

gurramok

DanWall wrote: »

How many multi-national companies require Welsh or Irish to work for them? It may be a bonus to have French or German, or even Chinese now, it is bad enough getting a pass in other subjects without having to learn a language.

If we spoke Irish, they would need Irish language speakers to support the market, same for Welsh in Wales.

The Finnish, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish have economies that are doing fine in their own lingo. And ze Germans too. By the way, alot of those jobs you speak of need one of the these languages!

shruikan2553

gurramok wrote: »

If we spoke Irish, they would need Irish language speakers to support the market, same for Welsh in Wales.

The Finnish, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish have economies that are doing fine in their own lingo. And ze Germans too. By the way, alot of those jobs you speak of need one of the these languages!

Is it really worth it for a company to provide translations between irish and english when the people who speak irish all speak english

ZeitgeistGlee

gurramok wrote: »

If we spoke Irish, they would need Irish language speakers to support the market, same for Welsh in Wales.

The Finnish, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish have economies that are doing fine in their own lingo. And ze Germans too. By the way, alot of those jobs you speak of need one of the these languages!

If we spoke Irish there wouldn't have been nearly the amount of foreign direct investment in this country by multinational companies that exists today, they're here not only because they pay a fraction of the tax they would in the US or elsewhere but because they have/had ready access to a cheap, hard-working English-speaking labour force with which to build a manufacturing base.

Perhaps some of those companies would still be here if we all spoke Irish as our primary tongue, but they almost certainly wouldn't be here for the same reasons and their employment figures would consist of a token number of Irish speakers to deal with a market of 4 million people. That of course ignores the fact that English is an official language of this country, and was afforded equal primacy to Irish in the original 1922 constitution.

The Scandinavians, Dutch and Germans also have significantly larger populations than we do whose people and governments were better willing and able to support indigenous industry. The fact they're much less so on the periphery of the European continent than we are, comparatively speaking, is also significant.

Realistically for the sake of speaking Irish we'd be talking about ripping the entire manufacturing base out of the country, all the tens to hundreds of thousands of jobs that go with them, all the billions of euro in income they generate and replacing it with a token few Irish-speakers and the hope that our indigenous industry would be able to match what was lost. It reminds me of Eamon DeV's disastrous isolationist economic policy which forced us to become such an open economy in the first place.

Micky Dolenz

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

If we spoke Irish there wouldn't have been nearly the amount of foreign direct investment in this country by multinational companies that exists today, they're here not only because they pay a fraction of the tax they would in the US or elsewhere but because they have/had ready access to a cheap, hard-working English-speaking labour force with which to build a manufacturing base.

That quite frankly is bollix. Even if we all spoke Irish, we would be fluent in English as well. Ireland is Americanised and surrounded by English speaking countries and media.

Even if RTE was all Irish, every home would still have BBC/SKY. All movies and music would be in English.

ZeitgeistGlee

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

That quite frankly is bollix. Even if we all spoke Irish, we would be fluent in English as well. Ireland is Americanised and surrounded by English speaking countries and media.

Even if RTE was all Irish, every home would still have BBC/SKY. All movies and music would be in English.

Says who? It's only since the late 80s/early 90s that Irish has arguably had any significant Anglicisation/Americanisation and even then its disproportionately involved the younger generations. Or are you talking about if we all suddenly woke up one day speaking Irish as our primary tongue when the day before we spoke English?

What use would people have had for English in Ireland in the 1960s/70s/80s if Irish was the day to day language and everything from our media, business and legal affairs was conducted through Irish? (The same strange-hold effect English is accused of having now.) MNCs who came over wanted English fluent workers, look at how fluent the majority of Irish people are in Irish 12 months after the Leaving Cert.

Putting all that aside I was dealing with gurramok's hypothetical about if we all spoke Irish which would clearly require we all had always been speaking Irish seeing as how miserably the forced proliferation of the language has faired generally over the last 80 years.

losthorizon

Gone Drinking wrote: »

This is a good watch in relation to learning languages that aren't spoken too widely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvlQXPNwrqo

Just like to point out that most of the richest per capita nations in the world are small with small populations who tend not to speak english as a first language (if at all). It works for these nations and it does not hold back their development. Don't speak Irish myself btw but would like to.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I thought welsh is learnt well enough in Wales to be used, still think its the "true welsh" trying to force their opinions on others though.

Irish teachers are bad but it seems English teachers are not much better.

UCDVet

I think this is a great idea.

As a child, I was never taught Welsh and not a day goes by that I don't regret it. 'Learn it now?' - easy enough to say, but so hard to do. I've missed out on so many great opportunities and even jobs due to my lack of Welsh understanding, not to mention the overwhelming majority of media/art that is worth viewing is 99% in Welsh.

It's too late for me, but it's not too late for our children. I think everyone should be forced to learn Welsh.

wexie

UCDVet wrote: »

I think this is a great idea.

As a child, I was never taught Welsh and not a day goes by that I don't regret it. 'Learn it now?' - easy enough to say, but so hard to do. I've missed out on so many great opportunities and even jobs due to my lack of Welsh understanding, not to mention the overwhelming majority of media/art that is worth viewing is 99% in Welsh.

It's too late for me, but it's not too late for our children. I think everyone should be forced to learn Welsh.

ehh...I do hope you mean Welsh people right? Somehow I can't see there being much enthusiasm for forcing Japanese kids to learn Welsh.

Also the claim that 99% of all media or art 'worth viewing' is in Welsh....is quite simply....outlandish...

I'm glad you like Wales and Welsh a lot but it seems to me your views are somewhat prejudiced.

Iwasfrozen

wexie wrote: »

ehh...I do hope you mean Welsh people right? Somehow I can't see there being much enthusiasm for forcing Japanese kids to learn Welsh.

Also the claim that 99% of all media or art 'worth viewing' is in Welsh....is quite simply....outlandish...

I'm glad you like Wales and Welsh a lot but it seems to me your views are somewhat prejudiced.

Oh God no he's so right. I can't tell you how many good jobs I've been refused from my lack of Welsh. Everyone should have the opportunity to learn Welsh, to deny our children this pleasure would be simply cruel.

losthorizon

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh God no he's so right. I can't tell you how many good jobs I've been refused from my lack of Welsh. Everyone should have the opportunity to learn Welsh, to deny our children this pleasure would be simply cruel.

Er yes but you don''t live in Wales. If you didnt speak Finnish and tried to get a job in Finland how far would you get.

goose2005

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh God no he's so right. I can't tell you how many good jobs I've been refused from my lack of Welsh. Everyone should have the opportunity to learn Welsh, to deny our children this pleasure would be simply cruel.

Shouldn't education be more than just 14 years of learning marketable skills? Shouldn't at least some of it go towards more abstract needs?

Iwasfrozen

losthorizon wrote: »

Er yes but you don''t live in Wales. If you didnt speak Finnish and tried to get a job in Finland how far would you get.

Probably quite a bit far actually. Over there you're sorted if you can speak English, Swedish or Russian.

goose2005 wrote: »

Shouldn't education be more than just 14 years of learning marketable skills? Shouldn't at least some of it go towards more abstract needs?

Depends on the abstract needs. No one has an abstract need to become fluent in Irish at primary school. Basic literary and numerary skills on the other hand...

Iwasfrozen

losthorizon wrote: »

Just like to point out that most of the richest per capita nations in the world are small with small populations who tend not to speak english as a first language (if at all). It works for these nations and it does not hold back their development.

Correlation does not imply causation.

losthorizon wrote: »

Don't speak Irish myself btw but would like to.

I don't get people who say this. I could speak Irish but I don't want to. What's your excuse?

kowloon

If we want links with our culture History is far more valuable than Irish. If we want to encourage language we have a wide variety of others to choose from, most of which are more useful. Irish is great for that warm fuzzy feeling inside, but I don't see that as being enough of a reason to force anyone to learn it.

If you like Irish speak away, but don't go on about how everyone not being forced to engage in your hobby is somehow an impingement on your rights.

An Coilean

RandomName2 wrote: »

Well Wales is being subb'd by the UK so it doesn't really matter if goes backwards economically.

Mind you, in Ireland it has long been a burden that Irish is treated as the "primary language".

Any facts of figures to back that up?

An Coilean

ZeitgeistGlee wrote: »

This line of thought has honestly always confused me.

We've been an independent nation for the last hundred years nearly, and Irish has been a mandatory subject of education for about that long as well (indeed you failed your State Exams for failing Irish alone) so how is it that English is the enforced language?

Not sure what is so confusing about it, If an Irish speaker wanted to live their lives without having to speak English they would quickly find themselves in dificulty.


Irish is only compulsory for less than an hour a day a few times a week between the ages of 4 and 18, if you don't get an exemption.
English on the other hand is essentially compulsory for the rest of the time and if you try to speak Irish outside of those few hours a week in the classroom you are liable to get abuse for it.

playedalive

This system of immersion education can only really work from a very young age. If you were to introduce this to teenagers in the morning, it would be problematic. A class for the language as a foreign language would work better since their dominant language would be English. In the Spanish context, I think this form of education in Catalonia/ Galicia and Basque country only works as it starts from the age the kids start school, regardless of whether the family actually speak the co-official language of the region.

In Wales, this method could work because a lot of its administration is available automatically in Welsh. So people can be exposed to the language and it is somewhat normalised outside of the classroom, regardless if a child's family don't speak Welsh. I think this is why the situation of Catalan in Catalonia works, alongside Spanish.

Could this work for Irish? Maybe but not likely. Even though Irish is a constitutional language, services are more accessible through English. In the Irish context, it would be better to teach the language as a foreign language since the days of learning poetry do not provide a good context for the language. Learning communicative Irish works better. In other words, treating it as a mother tongue is not effective for most of the population.

BognarRegis

lewiscymru wrote: »

"ALL pupils in Wales should have to learn up to a third of their lessons through the medium of Welsh, a language campaign group claims today....
Do you think this could be done in Ireland, or is Wales a completely different situation?

The question should not be 'could this be done' rather 'should it be done'? Is it morally right?

This would then bring us to a mature discussion of the rights of children not to have a non-native language imposed on them.

mickstupp

BognarRegis wrote: »

The question should not be 'could this be done' rather 'should it be done'? Is it morally right?

This would then bring us to a mature discussion of the rights of children not to have a non-native language imposed on them.

People are going to argue about what counts as a native language then. I consider my native language to be English, since I didn't do any Irish till I went to school. To misquote An Coilean above, if an English speaker like me wanted to live their lives without having to speak Irish they would quickly find themselves in difficulty by about the age 4. Yet no doubt many in this country's administration will insist Irish is a native language, which I can only assume (genuinely, since I don't know) is why it's not being taught as a foreign language, i.e. effectively. But then, perhaps my opinion of "native language" being the one you speak and learn from birth is incorrect.

An Coilean

BognarRegis wrote: »

The question should not be 'could this be done' rather 'should it be done'? Is it morally right?

This would then bring us to a mature discussion of the rights of children not to have a non-native language imposed on them.

Do you think there is a right to not be exposed to a language?

BognarRegis

An Coilean wrote: »

Do you think there is a right to not be exposed to a language?

You're minimising.

The proposal is one of compulsory immersion for many years, with no possibility of escape. It's proposed in a way which takes no account of the desire of the people who would be affected.

Exposure to a language is what happens when one encounters street sign
s in both Irish and English.