Are mods exempt from rules when moderating?

Tallon

I have been asked to post here


I recieved an infraction for pointing out that someone was being a dick on more than one occasion yet it's okay for moderators to do the exact same thing as long as it's in their own forum and is related to moderation?

OscorBravo wrote:

moderators being allowed to post things (in the course of moderating a forum) that non-moderators are not.

This is okay http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85365328&postcount=421

Originally Posted by .ak View Post
Don't be a dick. Read the warning in the OP.

And this is okay? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85359975&postcount=1

Originally Posted by .ak
MOD NOTE: It seems people are more interested in being dicks than actually discussing what's at hand. Straight one week bans for anything we consider uncivil. Be mindful of your fellow posters - you have been warned.

And this http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85333232&postcount=2

Originally Posted by Diabhal Beag View Post
No need to be a dick audman, this is a genuine request.

But what I said is not?

Larianne

Backseat modding?

The posts by moderators are giving on thread warnings about people behaving like dicks.

Report the post instead of posting it on thread if you feel someone is being a dick.

Tallon

Larianne wrote: »

Backseat modding?

The posts by moderators are giving on thread warnings about people behaving like dicks.

Report the post instead of posting it on thread if you feel someone is being a dick.

So the answer to the question in the title is yes?

Larianne

What rules? Calling someone a dick on thread?

Well if it's in the charter (and it's pretty much a site wide known fact) not to be a dick and if people are being dicks, the mods have every right to warn/infarct/ban people for being dicks and giving it as a reason.

What rule are they meant to be exempt from, Tallon?

sundodger5

Larianne wrote: »

What rules? Calling someone a dick on thread?

Well if it's in the charter (and it's pretty much a site wide known fact) not to be a dick and if people are being dicks, the mods have every right to warn/infarct/ban people for being dicks and giving it as a reason.

What rule are they meant to be exempt from, Tallon?

Personal abuse?

Tallon

Larianne wrote: »

What rules? Calling someone a dick on thread?

Well if it's in the charter (and it's pretty much a site wide known fact) not to be a dick and if people are being dicks, the mods have every right to warn/infarct/ban people for being dicks and giving it as a reason.

What rule are they meant to be exempt from, Tallon?

'Personal Abuse'

Are mods allowed personally abuse someone because they are 'Moderating'

It's a very simple question, which you seem to be pussy footing around!

Larianne

I didn't see any abuse in those posts tbh.

Tallon

Larianne wrote: »

I didn't see any abuse in those posts tbh.

And my post? The one I was infracted for?

P. Breathnach

Yes, mods are allowed describe a poster as a dick (in relation to particular posts, not generally) or a troll or a troublemaker or whatever. In a sense, they do it on behalf of the rest of us. If I think somebody is acting the dick, I report it and the mod adjudicates.

People tend to get bogged down with similes, but I would liken the mod's role to that of a referee in a match: only the mod can rule on what is foul play. Other participants should not blow whistles.

Tallon

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Yes, mods are allowed describe a poster as a dick (in relation to particular posts, not generally) or a troll or a troublemaker or whatever. In a sense, they do it on behalf of the rest of us. If I think somebody is acting the dick, I report it and the mod adjudicates.

People tend to get bogged down with similes, but I would liken the mod's role to that of a referee in a match: only the mod can rule on what is foul play. Other participants should not blow whistles.

Another post that does not make any sense!

Can you answer the question please?

Mr E

The bottom 3 links in the OP are broken, Tallon.

Tallon

Mr E wrote: »

The bottom 3 links in the OP are broken, Tallon.

Apologies, that's fixed now

P. Breathnach

Tallon wrote: »

Another post that does not make any sense!

Can you answer the question please?

I answered it: when acting as moderators, mods are not subject to the rules in the same way as the rest of us are - specifically in relation to describing a poster's behaviour.

The fact that you don't like my answer does not mean either that it is wrong or that it makes no sense.

sundodger5

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Yes, mods are allowed describe a poster as a dick (in relation to particular posts, not generally) or a troll or a troublemaker or whatever. In a sense, they do it on behalf of the rest of us. If I think somebody is acting the dick, I report it and the mod adjudicates.

People tend to get bogged down with similes, but I would liken the mod's role to that of a referee in a match: only the mod can rule on what is foul play. Other participants should not blow whistles.

To use your referee analogy. The ref can blow the whistle for foul play but cant foul the player themselves. if calling someone a dick is against the rules then surely the mods can't abuse it either?

Penn

"Don't be a dick" is one of the longstanding Boards rules, stemming from a comment by Wil Wheaton ("Don't be a dick" is generally referred to as 'Wheaton's Law'). It isn't being used by moderators as personal abuse, it's being used in the context of telling a poster they are acting against the site rules, whether it's by being antagonistic, condescending, needlessly aggressive, borderline trolling etc.

In your DRP thread, I made the comparison about calling another poster a troll. Sometimes posters call other posters a troll either to discredit their opinion or as a form of personal abuse. Calling another poster a troll is considered to be a) personal abuse, or b) backseat moderating, depending on the circumstances (mods might not necessarily action it, again, depending on the circumstances). But a moderator can call another poster a troll in the case of a moderating decision (if the person is trolling). Same with calling them a dick, if they're breaking the "Don't be a dick" rule.

P. Breathnach

sundodger5 wrote: »

To use your referee analogy. The ref can blow the whistle for foul play but cant foul the player themselves. if calling someone a dick is against the rules then surely the mods can't abuse it either?

Jaysus! I did say that people tend to get bogged down with similes, but I thought that I had chosen a safe one.

So you want the ref to be allowed call a foul, but not be allowed say what the foul was.

pickarooney

It's like the rule for parents that says you don't tell your child she's a bold girl but that she's being bold.

Tallon

Penn wrote: »

"Don't be a dick" is one of the longstanding Boards rules, stemming from a comment by Wil Wheaton ("Don't be a dick" is generally referred to as 'Wheaton's Law'). It isn't being used by moderators as personal abuse, it's being used in the context of telling a poster they are acting against the site rules, whether it's by being antagonistic, condescending, needlessly aggressive, borderline trolling etc.

In your DRP thread, I made the comparison about calling another poster a troll. Sometimes posters call other posters a troll either to discredit their opinion or as a form of personal abuse. Calling another poster a troll is considered to be a) personal abuse, or b) backseat moderating, depending on the circumstances (mods might not necessarily action it, again, depending on the circumstances). But a moderator can call another poster a troll in the case of a moderating decision (if the person is trolling). Same with calling them a dick, if they're breaking the "Don't be a dick" rule.

Which is what I said in my DRP and to the Mod originally!

I was not attacking the poster, I was asking them to 'stop being a dick' and that he had previously 'acted like a dick'

How is that personal abuse?

Also, just for clarity, the answer to my original question is; Yes! A mod is allowed break the rules, as long as they are moderating?

Tallon

OscorBravo, why did you delete your post?

sundodger5

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Jaysus! I did say that people tend to get bogged down with similes, but I thought that I had chosen a safe one.

So you want the ref to be allowed call a foul, but not be allowed say what the foul was.

Perhaps the terminology should be changed from a mod point of view?
If you can give someone grief for saying things in a particular way but then use the same term yourself it looks like double standards whether intended or not.

Tallon

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I answered it: when acting as moderators, mods are not subject to the rules in the same way as the rest of us are - specifically in relation to describing a poster's behaviour.

The fact that you don't like my answer does not mean either that it is wrong or that it makes no sense.

As above, just for clarity, the answer to my original question is; Yes! A mod is allowed break the rules, as long as they are moderating?

A simple yes or no will suffice

P. Breathnach

Tallon wrote: »

As above, just for clarity, the answer to my original question is; Yes! A mod is allowed break the rules, as long as they are moderating?

A simple yes or no will suffice

The answer is "no", but you need to consider what rules apply. The rules for mods when they are acting as moderators are different from the rules that apply to ordinary posters.

mathepac

Tallon wrote: »

... Are mods allowed personally abuse someone because they are 'Moderating'

It's a very simple question, which you seem to be pussy footing around!

My response to your question is a simple unequivocal "Yes", based on my own recent first-hand experiences. Outright unfounded accusations of lying, accusations of fabricating stories and exaggeration sailed through as did obvious concerted attempts at bullying and ad hominem attacks. Reported to mods and reported to c-mods. I might as well have reported them to Shep.

That line about dicks in the charters needs changing (as does moderator behaviour and posting, less of the "don't do as I do, do as I say" and more of the model citizen behaviour is called for IMHO (some hope)).

The charters are open to free interpretation by the mods as suits their purposes from time-to-time and consistency in interpretation and application of "the rules" is not one of their purposes as I've pointed out previously in Feedback and in PMs.

It's all pointless typing and posting anyway, nothing will change, not even the sycophantic thank yous attached to the OP announcing the new home page. Crawlers and bullies, the two characteristics are usually seen in the same person as suits the circumstances.

Penn

Tallon wrote: »

Which is what I said in my DRP and to the Mod originally!

I was not attacking the poster, I was asking them to 'stop being a dick' and that he had previously 'acted like a dick'

How is that personal abuse?

Because you weren't doing it as a mod, you were doing it as a poster. And calling another poster a dick is personal abuse.

Tallon wrote: »

Also, just for clarity, the answer to my original question is; Yes! A mod is allowed break the rules, as long as they are moderating?

No, because it's not a breach of the rules for mods in the course of moderating.

If I went onto the (random example) Dental Issues forum, saw someone being rude, antagonistic etc, even though I know he's breaking the "Don't be a dick" rule, it's not my place to call him out on it. I'd report the post and let the mods deal with it. Me calling him a dick on the thread would be personal abuse, because I, a normal poster, would be attacking the poster, not the post. Even if you don't regard it as being personal abuse, then it still falls under backseat modding.

If someone on one of the forums I moderate (GTA for example) was breaking that rule, I might issue an on-thread warning saying "Don't be a dick", but within the course of moderating. I'm not attacking the poster, I'm pointing out as a moderator that his posts are breaking the rules, because that's what moderators are supposed to do (though personally, I tend not to use "Don't be a dick" as some people don't appreciate the phrasing of it, however succinct it may be).

Tallon

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The answer is "no", but you need to consider what rules apply. The rules for mods when they are acting as moderators are different from the rules that apply to ordinary posters.

They shouldn't be!

A moderator cannot personally abuse someone, while a user gets punished for the exact same thing!

Tallon

Penn wrote: »

Because you weren't doing it as a mod, you were doing it as a poster. And calling another poster a dick is personal abuse.



No, because it's not a breach of the rules for mods in the course of moderating.

If I went onto the (random example) Dental Issues forum, saw someone being rude, antagonistic etc, even though I know he's breaking the "Don't be a dick" rule, it's not my place to call him out on it. I'd report the post and let the mods deal with it. Me calling him a dick on the thread would be personal abuse, because I, a normal poster, would be attacking the poster, not the post. Even if you don't regard it as being personal abuse, then it still falls under backseat modding.

If someone on one of the forums I moderate (GTA for example) was breaking that rule, I might issue an on-thread warning saying "Don't be a dick", but within the course of moderating. I'm not attacking the poster, I'm pointing out as a moderator that his posts are breaking the rules, because that's what moderators are supposed to do (though personally, I tend not to use "Don't be a dick" as some people don't appreciate the phrasing of it, however succinct it may be).

Except if you're a moderator*

Insect Overlord

Tallon wrote: »

Except if you're a moderator*

* ...acting as a moderator within the forum they moderate.

Penn

Tallon wrote: »

Except if you're a moderator*

That's an unfair oversimplification. You're looking for a Yes or No answer when the answer simply isn't that black and white.

Dades

"Not being a dick" is a well-known internet trope, and one of the core tenets of how to behave on Boards (or most any discussion forum). Referring in moderation to that term is not abuse - it's a warning about how not to act.

Use of it by non-moderators is more back seat modding than anything, unless the context is such that someone is actually being abusive.

Tallon

Penn wrote: »

That's an unfair oversimplification. You're looking for a Yes or No answer when the answer simply isn't that black and white.

It's exactly that black and white.. The moderators said the same thing I did, but with me, it's 'Personal Abuse'

I could link endless threads with the same issues, but you've asked me not to

Tallon

Tallon wrote: »

OscorBravo, why did you delete your post?

I would still like to know why OscorBravo deleted his post as I was replying to it...

Insect Overlord

It might be a good idea to take a few hours to calm down about the infraction before you continue to the campaign against injustice. Calling out Admins on-thread ain't the best thing to be doing on a hot Friday afternoon...

Tallon

Dades wrote: »

"Not being a dick" is a well-known internet trope, and one of the core tenets of how to behave on Boards (or most any discussion forum). Referring in moderation to that term is not abuse - it's a warning about how not to act.

Use of it by non-moderators is more back seat modding than anything, unless the context is such that someone is actually being abusive.

So you're telling me that this is not personal abuse

No need to be a dick <username>

but this is...

<username> was a dick in that thread too.....

Tallon

Insect Overlord wrote: »

It might be a good idea to take a few hours to calm down about the infraction before you continue to the campaign against injustice. Calling out Admins on-thread ain't the best thing to be doing on a hot Friday afternoon...

Please don't patronise me, I do not need to calm down... I have not posted in anyway to insinuate as such!

The infraction is a few days old, and I've already been involved in PM's with the mod, and a DRP thread...

I am not 'calling out an admin' I am asking a User why he posted something, and then deleted it while I was replying to it! The fact that he is an admin has no relation to anything

Penn

Tallon wrote: »

It's exactly that black and white.. The moderators said the same thing I did, but with me, it's 'Personal Abuse'

Yes, because you're not acting in the capacity of moderating, which means for all intents and purposes, you're calling another poster a dick. That's personal abuse.

Tallon wrote: »

I could link endless threads with the same issues, but you've asked me not to

No, I said that other people's posts weren't up for discussion in your DRP thread as DRP threads are to decide whether a mod action taken was correct, not to discuss the comments and actions of other posters and posts

Tallon

Penn wrote: »

Yes, because you're not acting in the capacity of moderating, which means for all intents and purposes, you're calling another poster a dick. That's personal abuse.

So again, the answer is a yes. mods are allowed to break, and are exempt from Boards.ie rules, as long as they are 'moderating'!

Penn wrote: »

No, I said that other people's posts weren't up for discussion in your DRP thread as DRP threads are to decide whether a mod action taken was correct, not to discuss the comments and actions of other posters and posts

No, you said...

I would advise you not to start reporting posts from the past, as retroactively reporting posts in order to prove a point constitutes an abuse of the report function.

This to me, includes linking to said posts?

Dades

Tallon wrote: »

I am not 'calling out an admin' I am asking a User why he posted something, and then deleted it while I was replying to it! The fact that he is an admin has no relation to anything

I see oBs deleted post and it was only one line repeating what has been said several times - and what you seem intent to ignore.

In the course of moderation, it's different to suggest someone is being a dick than, say, an arsehole. That is because of the accepted forum rule of "don't be a dick", an it's associated history.

I don't use that term personally, as clearly the history behind it is not known to everybody, and it might therefore be seen as overly harsh. That said, now the context has been (repeatedly) pointed out - this should no longer be a source of confusion.

Jerrica

The irony here is that in arguing the whole situation to the nth degree Tallon you are exemplifying exactly the kind of dickish behaviour that causes Mods to have to implement that rule in the first place.

Tallon

Dades wrote: »

I see oBs deleted post and it was only one line repeating what has been said several times - and what you seem intent to ignore.

In the course of moderation, it's different to suggest someone is being a dick than, say, an arsehole. That is because of the accepted forum rule of "don't be a dick", an it's associated history.

I don't use that term personally, as clearly the history behind it is not known to everybody, and it might therefore be seen as overly harsh. That said, now the context has been (repeatedly) pointed out - this should no longer be a source of confusion.

So what I said then wasn't personal abuse? I was just back seat modding?

Penn

Tallon wrote: »

No, you said...

This to me, includes linking to said posts?

No, I meant reporting numerous old posts (via the report function) as an attempt to prove a point (which people have done in the past) is an abuse of the report function and causes unfair work to moderators depending on how old the posts are. Linking to them in the context of this discussion is fine as far as I can see, unless an admin says otherwise (I'm not a mod or cmod here).

Mr C Nut

Tallon wrote: »

I would still like to know why OscorBravo deleted his post as I was replying to it...

What did his post say? This is curious to say in the least

Penn

Tallon wrote: »

So what I said then wasn't personal abuse? I was just back seat modding?

Hypothetical example, Tallon:

I, in this thread, call you a dick.

Would you consider that to be personal abuse or backseat modding?

P. Breathnach

Penn wrote: »

Hypothetical example, Tallon:

I, in this thread, call you a dick.

Would you consider that to be personal abuse or backseat modding?

Are polls allowed in this forum?

Tallon

Penn wrote: »

Hypothetical example, Tallon:

I, in this thread, call you a dick.

Would you consider that to be personal abuse or backseat modding?

If you said I was being a dick or acting like a dick then no! I have been called it loads an never battered and eyelid!

And that's a question you need to ask the mods and admins

Penn

Tallon wrote: »

If you said I was being a dick or acting like a dick then no! I have been called it loads an never battered and eyelid!

And that's a question you need to ask the mods and admins

Just because you wouldn't take offence to it doesn't mean others wouldn't. The rules don't change just because it's perceived that the person it's directed at wouldn't find it offensive.

Tallon

Penn wrote: »

Just because you wouldn't take offence to it doesn't mean others wouldn't. The rules don't change just because it's perceived that the person it's directed at wouldn't find it offensive.

Then what relevance was it asking me?

Tallon

Jerrica wrote: »

The irony here is that in arguing the whole situation to the nth degree Tallon you are exemplifying exactly the kind of dickish behaviour that causes Mods to have to implement that rule in the first place.

I sincerely hope that this user is infracted for this abusive post towards me? Otherwise it might make your arguments look invalid?

LoLth

For clarification purposes Tallon:

Allowed:
as a moderator of feedback: "Tallon infracted for being a dick/troll" That's me giving my reason for the infraction to let other users on thread know what is and is not acceptable behaviour

Not allowed:
as a moderator/user on feedback: "Tallon, you're a dick" . that's me abusing the poster and not tackling the post.

Not Allowed:
As a USER on boards.ie (ie: a moderator anywhere they don't mod): "Tallon stop acting like a dick". that's me calling a user a dick and then trying to use semantics later to say "but I said acting like a dick...I didn't actually call him a dick...bow before my cleverness puny mods and admins for I am the insultinator!" ahem.. sorry.


so, to answer your question in a simple yes or no: NO

as for posters deleting posts, that's their own business and the reason for a deleted post is not something they have to reveal to anyone. Mods/admins can see deleted posts and we can see the reasons given for deletion. Admin/Mod/User do NOT have to answer to you because they changed their mind about a response to a question you asked.

Tallon

And what about the examples in the OP?


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85365328&postcount=421

Originally Posted by .ak View Post
Don't be a dick. Read the warning in the OP.

'Don't be a dick' That is calling someone a dick, that is not saying 'don't act like a dick'

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85359975&postcount=1

Originally Posted by .ak
MOD NOTE: It seems people are more interested in being dicks than actually discussing what's at hand. Straight one week bans for anything we consider uncivil. Be mindful of your fellow posters - you have been warned.

'people are more interested in being dicks' Again, calling people 'dicks' not acting like dicks


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85333232&postcount=2

Originally Posted by Diabhal Beag View Post
No need to be a dick audman, this is a genuine request.

And this one speaks for itself!


You're telling me that none of those posts are 'abuse' ?


I said there was no need for the poster to be a dick towards the OP - That is not calling someone a dick

I also said, he was a dick in another thread - meaning he was acting like a dick, and that was implied, and anyone that read it could see that

Just because you think you're being funny with your:

"but I said acting like a dick...I didn't actually call him a dick...bow before my cleverness puny mods and admins for I am the insultinator!"

post, doesn't mean that's what I was thinking or saying

I said the user was a dick in one thread, and posting like a dick in another, that is not personal abuse... and if the moderators are allowed say the exact same thing, or worse, then that is double standards!

jordainius

I think you need to just take your infraction on the chin and move on, this thread is nothing but pedantry.

The difference between a "non-mod" calling another user a dick and a moderator infracting someone for being a dick is pretty straightforward.

It's pretty simple;
1) Don't be a dick.
2) Don't call someone else a dick.
3) If you feel someone is being a dick, report them, let the mods deal with it, and move on.


Aside; It might be no harm for the site rules to re-word the "Don't be a dick" wording of the site rules and focus more on wording like "Don't be uncivil". Despite the fact that everyone knows what "Don't be a dick" means, it seems to come up a wee bit on Dispute Resolution forums that people decide to take personal offence to having the word "dick" thrown at them/their behaviour, might be no harm for mods to stick to using the word uncivil so as not to offend anyone.

Although, some people will just argue about anything after receiving an infraction, I've seen some people take issue with the definition of uncivil as well :rolleyes:. But some people find the word dick offensive, so it might be no harm to remove/replace that word from the charters and direct mods to use a diifferent phrase. I say this for the benefit of the mods as it would spare them having to argue over such a trivial issue as they have enough on their hands already :P

oscarBravo

I deleted my post because I started typing it, got distracted, came back and posted it, then found that I was just rehashing what had already been said repeatedly.

Mr C Nut wrote: »

What did his post say? This is curious to say in the least

I find it more curious that a brand-new user's first post is on this topic, frankly.