New Mutli Operator Bus Stops/Shelters

Stevek101

Seems like we finally will be getting fully integrated single style infrastructure/timetables.

The NTA wishes to develop and implement A Public Transport Stop Information System to reference data from all public transport operators in Ireland, process this data and output the information to be displayed on printed media at public transport stops/stations. This output from the system will be in the format of files that can be sent directly to a printing system for printing without further processing of the data. The printed information will be deployed on a new style bus stop. The new style of bus stop will consist of three different elements – bus stop, bus shelter, and monolith – each of which will have different requirements for its display panels. In addition route and operator information will be deployed on new style bus stop flags. While initially just bus stops, bus shelters and monoliths are in scope, it is anticipated that the Public Transport Stop Information System will in a later phase of work be expanded to include the production of information for display at LUAS (tram) stops and rail stations in Ireland. The system should be designed and built with this in mind. The printing process and the provision of printers are outside the scope of this contract.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=67737&B=&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

devnull

Great to see - exactly what I would like to see,

Public transport information from all operators using the same infrastructure, laid out by the NTA for the benefit of the travelling public rather than each operator's own interests.

I'm sure operators won't like sharing their stop infrastructure with other operators, but for the travelling public this is good news.

bk

Yes, where there are RTPI poles, all other bus poles should be removed and a standardised signs for all operators put on the RTPI poles.

There really isn't any need for separate RTPI poles and bus stop poles, it just clutters up the street and also confuses people *

* I've seen people queue up at both the RTPI and the bus stop pole and I've seen buses stop at both!

BTW The new Dublin Bus bus stop signs are excellent, the only issue is that they don't include the direction, which can be confusing. I believe the DB poles are Trueform poles from the same company who do the excellent London Bus poles.

I'd like to see something like they have in Seattle:

http://seattletransitblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Metro-bus-stop-sign-types.png

but directly below the RTPI signs where present and including all operators.

- RTPI sign at Top
- Followed by a simple, multinational recognised symbol for a bus:
Like the one to the right in this picture:
http://www.trueform.co.uk/media/products/elite_1.jpg
- Street Name
- Stop Number
- Route Numbers, including direction.

All in a neutral colour scheme (not DB colours).

I believe all licensed bus and coach routes now have a unique route number, so no problem with including them all on the same sign. Potentially each route tool could include the operator name, e.g.:

- Dublin Bus, 16, Dublin Airport
- Aircoach, 700, Cork City

Arranged from top to bottom, with the words in much smaller font, so as not to distract from the route number.

The first place where they should start trailing this is the mess on Westmoreland Street.

bk

Oh I see the London Bus signs (same as the DB one also already include multi-operators support):



So you could have:

Dublin Bus:
1, 16, 44
Aircoach:
700 Cork City, 701 Dublin Airport
Acme Tour Company:
801 City Tour

etc.

SpaceTime

I think they should take the Cork City and other urban routes out of the general national system though. It's really confusing!

You end up trawling through pages of rural routes.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Yes, where there are RTPI poles, all other bus poles should be removed and a standardised signs for all operators put on the RTPI poles.

There really isn't any need for separate RTPI poles and bus stop poles, it just clutters up the street and also confuses people *

* I've seen people queue up at both the RTPI and the bus stop pole and I've seen buses stop at both!

BTW The new Dublin Bus bus stop signs are excellent, the only issue is that they don't include the direction, which can be confusing. I believe the DB poles are Trueform poles from the same company who do the excellent London Bus poles.

I'd like to see something like they have in Seattle:

http://seattletransitblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Metro-bus-stop-sign-types.png

but directly below the RTPI signs where present and including all operators.

- RTPI sign at Top
- Followed by a simple, multinational recognised symbol for a bus:
Like the one to the right in this picture:
http://www.trueform.co.uk/media/products/elite_1.jpg
- Street Name
- Stop Number
- Route Numbers, including direction.

All in a neutral colour scheme (not DB colours).

I believe all licensed bus and coach routes now have a unique route number, so no problem with including them all on the same sign. Potentially each route tool could include the operator name, e.g.:

- Dublin Bus, 16, Dublin Airport
- Aircoach, 700, Cork City

Arranged from top to bottom, with the words in much smaller font, so as not to distract from the route number.

The first place where they should start trailing this is the mess on Westmoreland Street.

There's a reason for the ease-of-visibility of the BAC Stops and general livery.
It was the one of the prime criteria put forward during the consideration process for the current BAC Colour Scheme and Logo.
The former MD Dr Alan Westwell regarded the company's on-street visibility as being of high importance and the resultant image,although not to everybodys taste, IMO reflects this.

I would consider a "Neutral" Colour Scheme to be highly retrograde,as one could say thats exactly what LeapCard currently has,with significantly negative results.

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would consider a "Neutral" Colour Scheme to be highly retrograde,

So says a member of staff from the company who is proposing that the new overall colour scheme should be based on their own who also happens to be the biggest transport provider in the city? Vested interest much? I couldn't care less about what any company thinks, I are about the bigger picture and staff and management in companies need to realise that none of them are more important than the overall picture.

The reason I want a neutral scheme is that it means no operator loses or gains more than anyone else. There are obvious advantages for Dublin Bus if we use their colour scheme for all operators, since people will associate them with Dublin Bus and that is not equal access to infrastructure. It's called removing their right to infrastructure and forcing them to use ones with competitors corporate colours.

Why should a private operator be forced to remove their own stop in their own colours and instead tag their services onto a stop which is in their competitors corporate colours. That isn't a level playing field at the end of the day and both me and you and everyone on here know that at the end of the day.

n97 mini

Why did they wait for other operators to put up poles before deciding this? The damage is done, the place is already a mess.

Even today I saw a new Airport Hopper pole being put up beside a Dublin Bus pole.

bk

Yes, the BAC colour scheme may have good visibility, but it is far from the only high visibility colour scheme.

When I say a "neutral" colour scheme, I don't mean a low visibility one, I just mean one that isn't so close to the DB or any operators colour scheme.

So what I would like to see is a high visibility colour scheme that isn't used by any current operator.

At the very least, the signs should not have the DB logo and name at the top, instead it should have a neutral symbol of a bus.

LXFlyer

The reason for the repainting all of Dublin Bus stops in yellow came from extensive research with bodies representing visually impaired passengers. It was decided from that research that it was the ideal colour for people to find the stops.

It wasn't a "marketing" decision per se.

Sometimes I think people here really need to stop thinking in terms if trying to get one over other operators and accusing people of vested interests as such and see the bigger picture.

At the end of the day provided the information at the stop is provided in an equal and neutral manner for each of the operators, what difference does the colour of the bus stop pole make to them?

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

The reason for the repainting all of Dublin Bus stops in yellow came from extensive research with bodies representing visually impaired passengers. It was decided from that research that it was the ideal colour for people to find the stops.

The reason the bus stops are yellow is because the fact is that Dublin Bus vehicles are also yellow and the corporate colours of the company are yellow.

The reason that Bus Eireann Bus stops are red and white are because of the fact that Bus Eireann vehicles are also red and white and the corporate colors of the company.

Funnily enough the private operators also have bus stops which tie in with the colours of their vehicles, which also just happen to be their corporate colours as well. What a co-incidence.

If the yellow colour was solely down to such research, then why did the CIE group not apply it to all of their operations including Bus Eireann? Even this year there are new Bus Eireann stops going up in colours which you claim CIE say are not ideal? If that is the case why are they still doing this.

Also having done all of this research you claim was done, and having rolled out the yellow stops, they are still using off green colours for city tours and airlink bus stops, which again, just happen to be the same of the buses running on these routes.

All of it is sensible corporate policy when it comes to branding and it's clear that is why it does and why all companies are doing that. If it was deemed that yellow was by far the best colour why are CIE not adopting en-mass.

Sometimes I think people here really need to stop thinking in terms if trying to get one over other operators and accusing people of vested interests.

If someone works for a company who would be involved by a change, by definition they are not a neutral party to the discussion. If you don't agree then your definition of the term 'vested interest' clearly disagrees with what I was taught.

dowlingm

lxflyer wrote: »

Sometimes I think people here really need to stop thinking in terms if trying to get one over other operators and accusing people of vested interests as such and see the bigger picture.

BIG TIME.

LXFlyer

devnull wrote: »

The reason the bus stops are yellow is because the fact is that Dublin Bus vehicles are also yellow and the corporate colours of the company are yellow.

The reason that Bus Eireann Bus stops are red and white are because of the fact that Bus Eireann vehicles are also red and white and the corporate colors of the company.

Funnily enough the private operators also have bus stops which tie in with the colours of their vehicles, which also just happen to be their corporate colours as well. What a co-incidence.

If the yellow colour was solely down to such research, then why did the CIE group not apply it to all of their operations including Bus Eireann? Even this year there are new Bus Eireann stops going up in colours which you claim CIE say are not ideal? If that is the case why are they still doing this.

Also having done all of this research you claim was done, and having rolled out the yellow stops, they are still using off green colours for city tours and airlink bus stops, which again, just happen to be the same of the buses running on these routes.

All of it is sensible corporate policy when it comes to branding and it's clear that is why it does and why all companies are doing that. If it was deemed that yellow was by far the best colour why are CIE not adopting en-mass.



If someone works for a company who would be involved by a change, by definition they are not a neutral party to the discussion. If you don't agree then your definition of the term 'vested interest' clearly disagrees with what I was taught.

All I can tell is that having been involved in a local community group some time back, we had reason to be in communication with some of the people involved with visually impaired organisations, and through that I learnt about the significant amount of research/discussions on this topic that took place.

It was something that the then CEO of Dublin Bus took upon himself to address - what other CIE group or private companies did or didn't do is up to them, I don't know - I just happen to know about the rationale for the change.

As I said the important thing really is that the information at the stop is presented in a clear and neutral way.

Re the vested interests - I just felt you were personalising this somewhat unnecessarily. I don't think comments like that really add anything to this discussion.

devnull

lxflyer wrote: »

All I can tell is that having been involved in a local community group some time back, we had reason to be in communication with some of the people involved with visually impaired organisations, and through that I learnt about the significant amount of research/discussions on this topic that took place.

I completely agree that such things need to be taken into account - but there are other colours which would be able to do this whilst at the same time ensuring that they are netural and are not tied to any particular existing operator.

It was something that the then CEO of Dublin Bus took upon himself to address - what other CIE group or private companies did or didn't do is up to them.

Indeed, but as I stated, that theory would hold up more if all Dublin Bus stops are yellow. But they are not and it just happens that services that do not operate in a yellow livery, also don't have yellow bus stops, they have bus stops that are in the colour of the vehicles that operate such services.

If the visually impaired consideration was so important, then whey did Dublin Bus abandon this idea for their premium services? This is what leads me to the logical connection that the bus stops were made to match the colours of the buses that operate the services, since Dublin Bus certainly made the decision to do so with the Airlink and City tour services.

As I said the important thing really is that the information at the stop is presented in a clear and neutral way.

I think we all agree on that. For that to happen it would need to be managed by the NTA which then there can be no complaints going forward. They are heading int he right direction by handing out route numbers, but there is still some way to go but these are encouraging signs without a doubt.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Re the vested interests - I just felt you were personalising this somewhat unnecessarily. I don't think comments like that really add anything to this discussion.

I tend to agree and so does the charter.

Play the ball and not the man is fairly key rule here to keep thing constructive.

It's worth saying I don't view your post as back seat modding, but it's always a thin line and it's worth reporting the post rather than stating the rules to others.

monument

As posted before: Copenhagen bus stop with real time and timetables combined:



It's too late for that exact design but surely timetable panels could be added onto the real time polls?

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

So says a member of staff from the company who is proposing that the new overall colour scheme should be based on their own who also happens to be the biggest transport provider in the city? Vested interest much? I couldn't care less about what any company thinks, I are about the bigger picture and staff and management in companies need to realise that none of them are more important than the overall picture.

The reason I want a neutral scheme is that it means no operator loses or gains more than anyone else. There are obvious advantages for Dublin Bus if we use their colour scheme for all operators, since people will associate them with Dublin Bus and that is not equal access to infrastructure. It's called removing their right to infrastructure and forcing them to use ones with competitors corporate colours.

Why should a private operator be forced to remove their own stop in their own colours and instead tag their services onto a stop which is in their competitors corporate colours. That isn't a level playing field at the end of the day and both me and you and everyone on here know that at the end of the day.

Bit of an oul hissy-fit here methinks...but just to clarify.

So says an individual poster,who just so happens to be a Bus Atha Cliath employee,but who in all matters is posting as an Individual,without any input from or desire to be a Bus Atha Cliath spokesperson.

The company have their own professional PR and Media Department who I'm confident will address whatever issues you feel need addressing. (Mods: You can bold that if you think it needs sufficient reinforcement )

Now,to resume normality.....Perhaps Devnull is viewing this issue from a the Competitive Perspective,a lá the Thatcher/Ridley model ?

This presupposes that the NTA propose to do a Darlington on it, and have individual operators engage in all out war on the streets,a situation which would most certainly support Devnulls POV on the Brand-Image/Livery issue.

However,I may be wrong in this,but from all the NTA's early pronouncements on how they see the Greater Dublin Public Transport market developing,it will be under a single Transport for Dublin like,brand image,with no direct on-road competition.

Exactly why,in London,few people,other than enthusiasts,actually know what company operates their Bus Route...to them it's a London Buses Big Red Bus...Full Stop.

If The NTA,take on board the substantial and accurate research which went into the BAC Brand Image visibility,and during which,as LxFlyer notes,all of the major disability agencies and representative bodies were consulted,then it's result will most likely be very close to the current BAC model.

What Devnull appears to suggest is that the most suitable and effective combination be cast aside simply because of a commercial predjudice against the company ?...Hopefully I am misreading it

Strong,bold,contrasting colours with appropriate signage for Core Services (PSO services and therefore first covered by the Equal Status Act 2000's provisions on Accessibility)

The Airlink and City Tour situation may well be explained by their status as Special (Non-PSO) Services and the involvement of outside Commercial Design practices in their execution.

Personally,I feel BAC's decision to involve the Outside Disability Agencies in the process has,in fact ensured that all operators will,going forward,have to engage in a similar fashion,particularly in a Tendering regime.

It may not be something that Operators will like,but the option to specify a fleet of Buses/Coaches in Dealer White,stick a Ticket Machine in them and operate away is fast dwindling.

bk

Well there are two different discussions developing here.

I do hope and feel that the future of Dublin Bus is to follow the London Bus model. Standardised design, spec, branding, ticketing, etc. for all city bus services, with routes operated either by private operators or a future version of the semi-state entity currently known as Dublin Bus.

However this isn't exactly what we are talking about here. What we are talking about here is reducing the amount of bus stops and on the street clutter and moving to all licensed bus and coach operators to using the same bus and coach stops.

Even if we end up with a London Bus style city bus service, we will still have a massive amount of other licensed bus and coach services that don't fit in the definition of a city bus service, but which use the streets of Dublin and ideally should be using the same multi-operator bus stops.

Example of services are Aircoach Airport services, Airlink, various city tour services, intercity coach services, long distance commuter services (BE and private operators), tourist services, etc.

In fact if you stand on O'Connell street, you might be quiet surprised and the number of buses and coaches that aren't DB. I'd say the figure is approaching 40% *

Now non of these services would fit under a London Bus style city bus service, yet they all still need bus stops in the city and ideally they should also be integrated into RTPI and use the same stops and shelters.

Again look at the picture I posted earlier, the bus services on the left are traditional London Bus style services, the one on the right is for other, non London Bus private tour coach services, but it uses a neutral, non operator specific design:



So they already do this in London.

* It is interesting to note that there are over twice as many private coaches and buses in Ireland as the entire DB and BE fleet combined!

monument

AS -- it's already been made clear -- move on.

Del2005

devnull wrote: »

So says a member of staff from the company who is proposing that the new overall colour scheme should be based on their own who also happens to be the biggest transport provider in the city? Vested interest much? I couldn't care less about what any company thinks, I are about the bigger picture and staff and management in companies need to realise that none of them are more important than the overall picture.

The reason I want a neutral scheme is that it means no operator loses or gains more than anyone else. There are obvious advantages for Dublin Bus if we use their colour scheme for all operators, since people will associate them with Dublin Bus and that is not equal access to infrastructure. It's called removing their right to infrastructure and forcing them to use ones with competitors corporate colours.

Why should a private operator be forced to remove their own stop in their own colours and instead tag their services onto a stop which is in their competitors corporate colours. That isn't a level playing field at the end of the day and both me and you and everyone on here know that at the end of the day.

Why are we worried over the colour of the pole at the stop? The average commuter doesn't care what operators use the stop they just want to know when the next bus to their destination is coming. Once they see a pole with the route they want to take they'll stand at any colour of pole and not even notice the colour of said pole.

Too much time is spent worrying over little things which are affecting the services people want.

bk

Here is another very interesting example of a mult-operator bus stop sign:



Now it is a bit too plain and "neutral" but it does have some really nice features.

I really like the symbol of the bus at the top, very easy to understand what it is for tourists. Much better then the DB logo or the London Bus logo seen earlier.

Great that it breaks down the routes per operator and the over all design doesn't favour any operator.

The down side is that it looks like it isn't easily up-datable for changes with panels like the DB and London Bus poles. I also think it isn't great that it doesn't give the direction for individual routes.

Here is a cleaner neutral design, I really like the Symbol and words "Bus Stop" up top:



If you really like your yellow and black colour scheme, then here is a more neutral:



Interestingly, I find the above example much more user friendly and easy to understand then the Dublin Bus logo on a stop.

Cookie_Monster

The human eye is far more sensitive to green than any other colour so that would be the obvious choice for visually impaired people rather than yellow I would have thought.

I have to agree with devnull's post here, even if they did decide yellow was best why was it only implemented in DB and not on all BE / IE routes as well. It's very obviously corporate colours rather than visibility orientated.

Stevek101

I don't know if it has already been said but it will presumably follow the Transport for Ireland colour scheme. So what you see on the taxi's is probably what you'll get.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

.

Even if we end up with a London Bus style city bus service, we will still have a massive amount of other licensed bus and coach services that don't fit in the definition of a city bus service, but which use the streets of Dublin and ideally should be using the same multi-operator bus stops.

Example of services are Aircoach Airport services, Airlink, various city tour services, intercity coach services, long distance commuter services (BE and private operators), tourist services, etc.

Now non of these services would fit under a London Bus style city bus service, yet they all still need bus stops in the city and ideally they should also be integrated into RTPI and use the same stops and shelters.

Again look at the picture I posted earlier, the bus services on the left are traditional London Bus style services, the one on the right is for other, non London Bus private tour coach services, but it uses a neutral, non operator specific design:



So they already do this in London.

* It is interesting to note that there are over twice as many private coaches and buses in Ireland as the entire DB and BE fleet combined!

Interestingly,there is significant unrest within the UK Coaching sector over the percieved LACK of facilities,including kerb-space and Layover points in Central London.

TfL are regularly quoted as being anti-coach by Operators,many of whom run up substantial penalty-notices when trying to satisfy the needs of their customers.

stop

Could have swore I saw an RTPI pole on Eden Quay with an X8 service counting down.. are Bus Eireann services appearing on Dublin area RTPI poles now?

devnull

AlekSmart wrote: »

This presupposes that the NTA propose to do a Darlington on it, and have individual operators engage in all out war on the streets.

Where did I say that? Stop reading what isn't there. I didn't ask for a war, I asked for everything to be neutral, I don't see how the fact I don't agree the bus stop being yellow and black means I advocate such practices. Lets stick to the core issues here rather than bringing in stuff that is completely unrelated.

However,I may be wrong in this,but from all the NTA's early pronouncements on how they see the Greater Dublin Public Transport market developing,it will be under a single Transport for Dublin like,brand image,with no direct on-road competition.

And if they are using Transport for Ireland, then can you tell me what colours that such company uses? Can you then see why it would be sensible to actually use those colours and not the ones of a company that is currently operating? And why Transport for Ireland themselves are not using yellow?

What Devnull appears to suggest is that the most suitable and effective combination be cast aside simply because of a commercial predjudice against the company ?...Hopefully I am misreading it

So let me get this right, I, someone who has never worked in the industry or involved with any operator in my entire life must be prejudiced against a company, but someone who is involved in the industry would be more neutral? Sorry that doesn't wash with me.

The Airlink and City Tour situation may well be explained by their status as Special (Non-PSO) Services and the involvement of outside Commercial Design practices in their execution.

Sorry, there is something I don't get here. You say that the core PSO services should be yellow for accessibility reasons. And you explain that the reason that commercial services are not yellow is because they are commercial services, I think I understand that viewpoint even if I don't have the same views as you on it.

But then you are arguing that all services whether commercial or PSO in the Greater Dublin area should be using the same yellow colours when this development by the NTA comes in. So on one hand you're saying that Dublin Bus can be justified on using different colours for commercial services, but on the other hand you're arguing other operations than PSO should be brought into line with PSO yellow as a common branding Which one is it?

It may not be something that Operators will like,but the option to specify a fleet of Buses/Coaches in Dealer White,stick a Ticket Machine in them and operate away is fast dwindling.

I don't remember referencing any of this in my post. All I said was I'd like to see a neutral bus stop colour. I didn't mention white at any case.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interestingly,there is significant unrest within the UK Coaching sector over the percieved LACK of facilities,including kerb-space and Layover points in Central London.

TfL are regularly quoted as being anti-coach by Operators,many of whom run up substantial penalty-notices when trying to satisfy the needs of their customers.

The difference is however that despite this, even in London, there are coach stations which are run by TFL rather than a bus company which also operates services.

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The human eye is far more sensitive to green than any other colour so that would be the obvious choice for visually impaired people rather than yellow I would have thought.

The problem is that here is an awful lot of green in the environment - the yellow stops are really obvious! Note that some people have difficulty distinguishing Blue-Green and others Green-Red.

Yellow provides a good contrast against the greens and greys of a roadside. Yellow contrasted with black is best and is hard wired into our brains as something to pay attention to - just like bees and wasps, but for different reasons. Hundreds of millions of years ago, our ancestors first saw with yellow-blue.

Orange-red colours are the best for illuminated signs.

Victor

This is the stop design used by the NTA on route 828 in Portlaoise.

Pardon the poor quality photo.

n97 mini

There should be no logos apart from operator logos.

Makes it look like there are more services than there actually are.

devnull

So it would seem that the bus stops will have Irish and English rather than just English.

That will create some clutter on signs with a few operators!

TheBandicoot

devnull wrote: »

So it would seem that the bus stops will have Irish and English rather than just English.

That will create some clutter on signs with a few operators!

I agree, we desperately need to drop state support for this dead language, or at the very least allow derogorations for specific applications(like transport signs that need to be as accessible as possible) or areas(like Dublin, where no one blooming speaks the language)

AlekSmart

TheBandicoot wrote: »

I agree, we desperately need to drop state support for this dead language, or at the very least allow derogorations for specific applications(like transport signs that need to be as accessible as possible) or areas(like Dublin, where no one blooming speaks the language)

Are you for real..???

You better get your Bio-Hazard suit on very rapidly,as you will be savaged for suggesting this...I seem to recall a recent and VERY emotional thread re the GT Audio Announcements which saw the battle lines drawn ...Lines in the Sand...Over my dead body....etc etc etc.....Oh,and I almost forgot.....BAC Yellow and NTA Green would make quite a nice visual statement doncha think ?

AlekSmart

lxflyer wrote: »

It was something that the then CEO of Dublin Bus took upon himself to address - what other CIE group or private companies did or didn't do is up to them, I don't know - I just happen to know about the rationale for the change.

As I said the important thing really is that the information at the stop is presented in a clear and neutral way.

Re the vested interests - I just felt you were personalising this somewhat unnecessarily. I don't think comments like that really add anything to this discussion.

Dr Alan Westwell's decision to buy-into accessibility,was a far-sighted one,which demanded not a little application and perseverance,particularly as the Bus Engineering world does not take kindly to changes of any form.

It's worth noting that decades before he came to BAC,Alan Westwell had been experimenting with accessibility on the,then standard,Daimler Fleetline/Leyland Atlantean fleets in Manchester and Glasgow.

Dr Westwell's approach and knowledge of the engineering aspects of "Accessible" Buses was of a somewhat higher calibre to most of those who were talking up the principle from a more political aspect

AlekSmart

Victor wrote: »

This is the stop design used by the NTA on route 828 in Portlaoise.

Pardon the poor quality photo.

Good photo Victor,even if only to underline the NTA's committment to fully accessible Public Transport for all....Good job it's a mini-bus on this route.

I wonder if the NTA spent-big on the poles?..,as there are several redundant naked (:eek:)one's standing around Goatstown Road and Clonskeagh following the recent demise of the Loco-Link and Circle Line operations...in facta,if one were quick,you ight just get a (faded) Circle Line Headplate.....:o

As for that actual NTA Colour Scheme and layout....well I suppose we have to start somewhere,and with a little work the pupil has the capacity to improve...is that diplomatic enough d'ye think ?

(The Ivy would require a bit of an oul trim I'd say,as it runs the risk of camoflaguing the New Signage within a season.....)

ArmaniJeanss

devnull wrote: »

So it would seem that the bus stops will have Irish and English rather than just English.

That will create some clutter on signs with a few operators!

Only halfway sensible solution (in the absence of the proper English-only solution) for this is double sided signs with the English text on one side and the Irish on the other. An absolute clutter mess otherwise.

Victor

I wonder what happens if an independent operator gets a contract with the 200 or so NTA-owned buses in DB livery. It would actually make sense for the NTA to take over the DB colour scheme, maybe even the name.

bk wrote: »

BTW The new Dublin Bus bus stop signs are excellent, the only issue is that they don't include the direction, which can be confusing.

Do you mean traffic direction or bus destination?

devnull wrote: »

The reason the bus stops are yellow is because the fact is that Dublin Bus vehicles are also yellow and the corporate colours of the company are yellow.

And the reason the corporate colours include yellow is to make buses, as well as bus poles, visible.

The reason that Bus Eireann Bus stops are red and white are because of the fact that Bus Eireann vehicles are also red and white and the corporate colors of the company.

Provincialism in the worst possible meaning of the word.

devnull wrote: »

If the visually impaired consideration was so important, then whey did Dublin Bus abandon this idea for their premium services? This is what leads me to the logical connection that the bus stops were made to match the colours of the buses that operate the services, since Dublin Bus certainly made the decision to do so with the Airlink and City tour services.

Branding. With 7,500 yellow bus stops and 1,000 yellow buses and 20,000 yellow bell pushes, they needed to clearly identify the different, special purpose buses for tourists. I'm not sure, but will visually impaired tourists be a strong market for open air tours?

Del2005 wrote: »

Why are we worried over the colour of the pole at the stop? The average commuter doesn't care what operators use the stop they just want to know when the next bus to their destination is coming. Once they see a pole with the route they want to take they'll stand at any colour of pole and not even notice the colour of said pole.

The point is noticing the bus stop, not noticing the colour.

Too much time is spent worrying over little things which are affecting the services people want.

Actually, details are sometimes immensely important.

bk wrote: »

Interestingly, I find the above example much more user friendly and easy to understand then the Dublin Bus logo on a stop.

That is down to legislation - bus stops are meant to have a circular sign with the word "Bus" on the. Then add the company logo.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interestingly,there is significant unrest within the UK Coaching sector over the percieved LACK of facilities,including kerb-space and Layover points in Central London.

TfL are regularly quoted as being anti-coach by Operators,many of whom run up substantial penalty-notices when trying to satisfy the needs of their customers.

In fairness, space in central London is at a premium and some expectations by operators and users may be unrealistic.

bk

Victor wrote: »

Do you mean traffic direction or bus destination?

I mean destination. For instance if you are getting a bus on an unfamiliar street, you might not know if the bus stop you are standing at is the one you need, heading into the city or out.

The examples of the Trueform bus stops (which DB seem to use) on their website, seem to include destination directly below the route number.

I assume DB left this out as they would be forced to use both Irish and English names, thus making it look more cluttered.

I suppose it isn't a big deal if there are map panels lower down that give this detail.

Victor wrote: »

That is down to legislation - bus stops are meant to have a circular sign with the word "Bus" on the. Then add the company logo.

Is it really in legislation!! In particular the part about the company logo. Can you please point me to that legislation.

And if it does exist then the legislation could be changed for the sake of accessibility.

For foreigners visiting a symbol of a bus is much easier to understand then the word "Bus", if you are going to argue that the DB colour scheme is good for accessibility, then you should also be in favour of such an internationally recognised symbol.

MGWR

devnull wrote: »

Great to see - exactly what I would like to see,

Public transport information from all operators using the same infrastructure, laid out by the NTA for the benefit of the travelling public rather than each operator's own interests.

I'm sure operators won't like sharing their stop infrastructure with other operators, but for the travelling public this is good news.

This is normal practice in other countries. Why should it be a strange thing in Ireland?

murphaph

Any bus or tram stop anywhere in Germany has to use the prescribed H (Haltestelle-"stopping point") sign. It is instantly recognisable no matter where in the county you are:

Haltestelle

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

Any bus or tram stop anywhere in Germany has to use the prescribed H (Haltestelle-"stopping point") sign. It is instantly recognisable no matter where in the county you are:

Haltestelle

Hmmmm....What's with the Yella...?.....although..... .....that combination of Yellow and Green looks close enough to a BAC/NTA/Leap blend

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

Hmmmm....What's with the Yella...?.....although..... .....that combination of Yellow and Green looks close enough to a BAC/NTA/Leap blend

Yet it isn't the DB colour scheme, which was my point you can find other, accessible colour schemes.

I don't like the "H" above, that isn't obvious to anyone outside of Germany. Hell I wouldn't know what it means, never mind a tourist from Asia.

A symbol of a bus would be much more recognisable. Here is a bus stop in Singapore, despite them using a very different alphabet, it is very obvious this is a bus stop:



BTW I love those massive German double deckers, three doors and two stairs, wish we had those.

BBTW If the NTA ended up following the London Bus privatised model, then it would probably make sense for the NTA to take control of the name, branding and colour scheme of Dublin Bus for use by all operators.

icdg

bk wrote: »

BBTW If the NTA ended up following the London Bus privatised model, then it would probably make sense for the NTA to take control of the name, branding and colour scheme of Dublin Bus for use by all operators.

Your average visitor to London probably wouldn't even realise that London Buses are privately operated - TfL controls so much of the operation, and, aside from the operator logo on the upper side of buses, all branding is London Buses and/or the roundel logo, which is now appearing on the side of buses once more. The private operators in London are more like subcontractors - the entire system is managed and run by TfL as so well demonstrated by the BBC Two documentary earlier in the week.

Incidently I have recently seen some bus stops in Galway, which appear otherwise to be Bus Éireann stops, have a flag with a plain "BUS" on a blue background with a small Galway City Council "striped G" logo above it, instead of the normal Bus Éireann flag. Only place in the country I've seen such things though.

snappieT

murphaph wrote: »

Any bus or tram stop anywhere in Germany has to use the prescribed H (Haltestelle-"stopping point") sign. It is instantly recognisable no matter where in the county you are:

Haltestelle

Would be even clearer if it were a picture of a bus. Save us (and the tourists) the explanation for the 'H'

lucernarian

No big deal is it really? I mean, emergency exit signs vary throughout the European Union and I haven't heard of disasters stemming from translation difficulties like that. It's German and the word is "Haltestelle". Not a hard thing to pick up if anyone were to visit the country for the first time.

bk

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

No big deal is it really? I mean, emergency exit signs vary throughout the European Union and I haven't heard of disasters stemming from translation difficulties like that. It's German and the word is "Haltestelle". Not a hard thing to pick up if anyone were to visit the country for the first time.

But the argument been made earlier was that we should follow the Dublin Bus colour scheme as it was designed for high visibility, then surely it is a valid argument that you should also use a symbol that is most accessible to all people from around the world?

lucernarian

bk wrote: »

But the argument been made earlier was that we should follow the Dublin Bus colour scheme as it was designed for high visibility, then surely it is a valid argument that you should also use a symbol that is most accessible to all people from around the world?

By the way, I wasn't the one to make that point though I feel is was well-defended.

Anyway, the visibility and comprehension of a particular word, phrase or even a picture or icon is not so easily and empirically gauged as the contrast between two colours can be. I don't think one follows from the other necessarily

I can understand perhaps why a symbol would be chosen that is most accessible for Germans but it's a different country and perhaps there were historical or financial reasons etc for using a letter symbol rather than something else. If it's ubiquitous and clearly recognised now, why should it be changed for some non-German speakers who would also be incapable of figuring that H means Bus Stop while brand recognition and familiarity is lost? I guess a bus symbol is something people would quickly become familiar with however.

But it's not a contentious point, more that I think the logo used is "just fine". I wouldn't go around replacing every bus stop in Germany over it!

murphaph

snappieT wrote: »

Would be even clearer if it were a picture of a bus. Save us (and the tourists) the explanation for the 'H'

London bus stops don't have a picture of a bus on them but I am pretty sure I'd recognise that a pole with some numbers at the top and a list of departure time underneath was in fact a bus/tram stop.

Would you have mistaken that for something other than a bus stop if there was no bus there? A lamp post or something? Practically speaking you'll figure out that H means bus/tram stop within seconds of encountering your first one and then wherever you go in the whole country you'll recognise the same sign.

Sure, they could have made a modern pictogram but here's the deal: The H sign is as old as the hills, going back to the early 1900's!! So it has established itself and would be costly to replace everywhere for almost no practical benefit. Meanwhile in Ireland in 2013 we still don't have a standard sign that identifies a bus stop.

mackerski

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

perhaps there were historical or financial reasons etc for using a letter symbol rather than something else.

The H is used for more than just buses, trams being the obvious other one but perhaps there are more.

lucernarian

mackerski wrote: »

The H is used for more than just buses, trams being the obvious other one but perhaps there are more.

I know it's used for trams/strassenbahnen as well but you're missing the point. It's established now as the branding used for such stops and in a similar way the Dublin Bus logo is distinctive to anyone who looks for one of those bus stops currently. Not so much use for other operators, but then it doesn't have to have a picture of a bus.

murphaph

mackerski wrote: »

The H is used for more than just buses, trams being the obvious other one but perhaps there are more.

Indeed there are! Here's a ferry stop for example:

Stevek101

There's an article in the Sunday Business Post today. A quick summary: the total cost will be around €7m with 16,000 stops being erected covering DB, BÉ and all private operators. Around 40 new shelters will be provided at a cost of €20,000 each and we should see the first stops in six months. Project should be completed in 2017.