Correction for dogs

Plain__Jane

I would love to hear what people on here think is an appropriate correction for a dog.
I read a thread here today where a water spray bottle was used, and it seemed to be a very unpopular 'correction method'.

I would use water as a last resort, say for instance if I have a dog that is jumping up on me. I would firstly try turning away or standing up if I'm sitting, when the dog jumps up.
If a puppy is biting I would firstly try to redirect his/hers attention on to a toy, or yelp etc.
But for both examples I would use a water spray bottle as a last resort. I do not think water is harmful for the dog, it's water after all, not acid

I'd love to hear what the rest of you think.

boomerang

If you persist long enough in 'extinguishing' the behaviour by ignoring it, or by giving rewards for a preferred behaviour, you'll never have to go down the 'correction' route. I think some people just mightn't realise that it takes more than a few repetitions - you really have to be patient and give it time!

Plain__Jane

boomerang wrote: »

If you persist long enough in 'extinguishing' the behaviour by ignoring it, or by giving rewards for a preferred behaviour, you'll never have to go down the 'correction' route. I think some people just mightn't realise that it takes more than a few repetitions - you really have to be patient and give it time!

I would find it highly unlikely that you will never ever have to use a correction. For whatever reason, not just the 2 examples I outlined.
But I do agree with you that you definitely need to be patient.

tk123

When he was a puppy we put him out and said 'too bad!!' - he knows now that that means he's being bold and he has to stop whatever hijinks he's up to!

DBB

OP, I train dogs, and I deal with dogs with behavioural issues.
One of my dogs is trained to work as a canine professional.
Never, ever have I had to use water sprays, or any physical corrections, because I use what are considered to be ethical punishments. They are
1. Withholding a desired reward, e.g. not giving a dog who's jumping all over you any attention until his butt is on the floor,
2. Removal of a desired reward, e.g. walking straight back out of the room if the dog doesn't sit, but jumps up on you.
3. Time-outs, e.g. the dog is left in a boring place on his own for a very short duration, 30 seconds is the usual.

These three punishments can be, and are used by qualified trainers and behaviourists to extinguish unwanted behaviours.
They are ethical, extremely effective when used properly (they haven't failed me yet), and critically, do not run the risk of making a dog fearful of you, or household objects like spray bottles.
There is no need to use any form of fear as a training tool. Many people do, but the simple truth is, there is no need.
All of the above are used only when necessary, and always in alliance with rewarding the dog for offering an appropriate behaviour instead. My above example is a case in point: if the dog jumps up, he either foregoes the reward of my attention, or loses me altogether. However, if he sits, he gets all the attention and, to begin with, treats that he wants. It becomes a no-brainer for the dog, but as we seem to all agree, it does take practise and repetition!

Plain__Jane

DBB wrote: »

OP, I train dogs, and I deal with dogs with behavioural issues.
One of my dogs is trained to work as a canine professional.
Never, ever have I had to use water sprays, or any physical corrections, because I use what are considered to be ethical punishments. They are
1. Withholding a desired reward, e.g. not giving a dog who's jumping all over you any attention until his butt is on the floor,
2. Removal of a desired reward, e.g. walking straight back out of the room if the dog doesn't sit, but jumps up on you.
3. Time-outs, e.g. the dog is left in a boring place on his own for a very short duration, 30 seconds is the usual.

These three punishments can be, and are used by qualified trainers and behaviourists to extinguish unwanted behaviours.
They are ethical, extremely effective when used properly (they haven't failed me yet), and critically, do not run the risk of making a dog fearful of you, or household objects like spray bottles.
There is no need to use any form of fear as a training tool. Many people do, but the simple truth is, there is no need.
All of the above are used only when necessary, and always in alliance with rewarding the dog for offering an appropriate behaviour instead. My above example is a case in point: if the dog jumps up, he either foregoes the reward of my attention, or loses me altogether. However, if he sits, he gets all the attention and, to begin with, treats that he wants. It becomes a no-brainer for the dog, but as we seem to all agree, it does take practise and repetition!

Thanks for all replies so far

I would most certainly not agree with using fear as a training method either, so we both agree on that!

But say for instance the 3rd example you give, that can for some dogs instill fear in them, as could water spray bottle if you use it incorrectly. Dogs are so social, and putting a dog in a time out can potentially make them very stressed, even if it is for 30 seconds only.

I'm curious about why people find water a sever correction? With any correction you should not need to use it over and over again, then it would obviously not be an effective correction.
So say if you use the spray bottle a couple of times, then the dogs stops the undesired behaviour, do you think this will cause long term damage to the dog?

DBB

Putting the dog on a time-out is meant to be unpleasant! It can't work otherwise. Psychologists (for humans and dogs) consider punishment to be necessary: many inappropriate behaviours can't simply go ignored because it could be dangerous, or at best, won't respond to being ignored because it's not attention that's maintaining it!
But the critical thing is the degree of punishment used, which needs us to factor in things like its aversion level, the possibility of it causing behavioural problems in future, the likelihood of it impacting on the dog negatively in future etc.
The time out involves no physical correction, and should be used in conjunction with a verbal warning. It does not make the dog suspicious of the owner, and does not give him a big fear of anything in future. Depending on the dog and the circumstances, the dog doesn't necessarily have to be separated from his humans at all during the time out, rather he can be constrained on his lead by the door-jamb, or put in his crate (the idea that we shouldn't use the crate as a place to punish a dog is losing ground these days).
The water bottle is a physical correction, and I'm afraid I've seen far, far too many dogs wincing, cowering, running away, or even becoming aggressive when they see a human lift a bottle. The worst I've seen a dog who's just been warned in advance of a time-out is an expression of "aw, crrrrappp!"
So, whilst punishment is a necessary part of training dogs, it's very much down to using punishments in a very considered, properly researched way.. by properly researched, I mean by behavioural scientists who have measured the impact of various things on welfare.

ShaShaBear

Plain__Jane wrote: »

Thanks for all replies so far

I would most certainly not agree with using fear as a training method either, so we both agree on that!

But say for instance the 3rd example you give, that can for some dogs instill fear in them, as could water spray bottle if you use it incorrectly. Dogs are so social, and putting a dog in a time out can potentially make them very stressed, even if it is for 30 seconds only.

I'm curious about why people find water a sever correction? With any correction you should not need to use it over and over again, then it would obviously not be an effective correction.
So say if you use the spray bottle a couple of times, then the dogs stops the undesired behaviour, do you think this will cause long term damage to the dog?

The dog might not always assume that the water is coming from the spray bottle. And I imagine depending on where you spray it, it can be quite uncomfortable and even painful, as dogs have quite sensitive noses, and no-one likes water sprayed in their eyes. The dog might learn to associate you clenching your fist to spray the bottle as a trigger, and since you are frightening and possibly hurting the dog, he or she could eventually be provoked by you into defending themselves. And that, of course, is where owners get rid of their dogs for being bad mannered and wicked.

In the wild, cheeky or unruly dogs would be excluded momentarily from pack activities to teach them a lesson in manners. 30 seconds would be just enough to teach a dog that craves attention and company that his behaviour was wrong and will result in the loss of something nice. But it will never provoke the dog into a fear-based response like a snap or bite.

I am pie

Broad shoulders, loud and abrupt "No Bali, No!" and take a step towards her usually works indoors, she will stop whatever she is doing. If she is jumping for food I just sort of nudge her with my hip and turn my back. Once or twice and she will sit. Seems to understand now that little doggies who sit still get treats. My wife struggles to stop her misbehaving but she has a much sweeter tone of voice than I do and laughs when she tells her off, or sound all sad and upset. I think body position and tone of voice are very critical, even if you have to sound a bit mean!

Where I am struggling more is outside with recall. Been trying a lot with recall training but it is hard work. She seems to respond perfectly with a treat but knows well when I have no treat to offer so won't come running, don't know how to correct her when she runs the other direction tale a-wagging, the little minx.

Plain__Jane

ShaShaBear wrote: »

The dog might not always assume that the water is coming from the spray bottle. And I imagine depending on where you spray it, it can be quite uncomfortable and even painful, as dogs have quite sensitive noses, and no-one likes water sprayed in their eyes. The dog might learn to associate you clenching your fist to spray the bottle as a trigger, and since you are frightening and possibly hurting the dog, he or she could eventually be provoked by you into defending themselves. And that, of course, is where owners get rid of their dogs for being bad mannered and wicked.

In the wild, cheeky or unruly dogs would be excluded momentarily from pack activities to teach them a lesson in manners. 30 seconds would be just enough to teach a dog that craves attention and company that his behaviour was wrong and will result in the loss of something nice. But it will never provoke the dog into a fear-based response like a snap or bite.

Would you have any research to back up what you are saying by any chance? I'd be interested reading more about it.

I'd like to make it clear up that the only time I would use the water spray bottle is as a last resort, as I mentioned in my OP. But I simply can not agree with what you are saying about it potentially hurting the dog if used correctly.
Plus when you use water you do not stand in front of the dog and aim at the face, and then spray the dog over and over. If he jumps up for instance, you would spray the dog once, and I would hide the bottle.

@DBB thanks for explaining. Would you consider using water as a correction on par with hitting your dog?
When you put your dog in a time out, do you lift the dog up or how do you get the dog into the time out area?

I'm really surprised with peoples reaction to water, interesting to hear peoples opinions though!!

ShaShaBear

Plain__Jane wrote: »

Would you have any research to back up what you are saying by any chance? I'd be interested reading more about it.

I'd like to make it clear up that the only time I would use the water spray bottle is as a last resort, as I mentioned in my OP. But I simply can not agree with what you are saying about it potentially hurting the dog if used correctly.
Plus when you use water you do not stand in front of the dog and aim at the face, and then spray the dog over and over. If he jumps up for instance, you would spray the dog once, and I would hide the bottle.

@DBB thanks for explaining. Would you consider using water as a correction on par with hitting your dog?
When you put your dog in a time out, do you lift the dog up or how do you get the dog into the time out area?

I'm really surprised with peoples reaction to water, interesting to hear peoples opinions though!!

Why on earth would a dog bite you if you put him out of the room? If the dog has no reason to believe you will hurt him, he will have no reason to hurt you.
I simply would not startle a dog by spraying water directly at him when he was least expecting it. And I honestly do not believe that there is anything to be gained from fear-based learning.
A lot of dogs, mine included, will go on time out when told. I say "No Shadow, time out!" and he sulks and swannys over to the bottom stair and sits there until I call him back. I would honestly be very surprised if he threw a wobbly and snapped at me for giving him a verbal command. I would not however be in the slightest bit surprised if he snapped at me for spraying water at him.

DBB

I am pie wrote: »

Where I am struggling more is outside with recall. Been trying a lot with recall training but it is hard work. She seems to respond perfectly with a treat but knows well when I have no treat to offer so won't come running, don't know how to correct her when she runs the other direction tale a-wagging, the little minx.

Lol, the hardest thing of all to get established, and because any correction needs to be applied at the moment of the unwanted behaviours, it's impossible to correct!
However, it is possible to more-or-less avoid the situation she gets you into by running off. You already have her responding well to coming for treats around the house and garden, is that right? Maybe even out on walks when there are no distractions about? If so, great! Keep up the good work! If not, then you need to sharpen this up with practise, mental amounts if praise and treats, and more practise!
But when you go on walks, you need an insurance policy, something that at worst stops her from being able to completely ignore your recall command as she bounds off in the opposite direction.
And to do this, you need a harness and a very long rope/lead. I'm talking something 10-20m in length.
She can run around almost free, trailing the rope behind her, whilst you continue to ask her to return, treat and mental praise, then leave her go again.
However, if you see a potential distraction, get yourself over to the rope and stand on it.. she may be 20m away, but now one thing she's not going to be able to do is run away. Now that she's under control, call her as usual. The worst thing that'll happen now is that she'll ignore you and continue to stare at the distraction... That's ok. As soon as her attention in it dips, and you see her dip an ear back at you or look at you, issue the command again, and hopefully this time she'll come!
Actually, I also use a jackpot reward for rediverting attention onto me from the bigger distractions, in my own dog's case, that's other dogs. When she redirects her attention to me, she gets her tennis ball as well as a treat and mental praise. For others, it might be a squeaky toy, or a particularly nyommy treat.
With time, that rediverted attention to you gets quicker, like your dog is saying "ooh, another dog! Hang on, that probably means yer man has something nice for me! Better go see!"
As she gets better, you will realise that her recall is pretty reliable when using this long-line insurance policy, so much so that you can start clipping it off her for increasing durations, until she doesn't need it any more.

Plain__Jane

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Why on earth would a dog bite you if you put him out of the room? If the dog has no reason to believe you will hurt him, he will have no reason to hurt you.
I simply would not startle a dog by spraying water directly at him when he was least expecting it. And I honestly do not believe that there is anything to be gained from fear-based learning.
A lot of dogs, mine included, will go on time out when told. I say "No Shadow, time out!" and he sulks and swannys over to the bottom stair and sits there until I call him back. I would honestly be very surprised if he threw a wobbly and snapped at me for giving him a verbal command. I would not however be in the slightest bit surprised if he snapped at me for spraying water at him.

I have actually seen this happened. Not with my own dog, but with one of my friends dog that was misbehaving. The dog was lifted up and carried away to his time out area, and snapped at the owner. So as DBB said, a correction should be unpleasant, it would surely not be that odd if the dog knows he is being taken away for a time out, he then freaks out about it?

But why would you think water will make the dog fearful if the time out doesn't, in your opinion?

I would love to hear what other people think is acceptable corrections as well, just so the thread is not only about water spray bottles.

ShaShaBear

Plain__Jane wrote: »

I have actually seen this happened. Not with my own dog, but with one of my friends dog that was misbehaving. The dog was lifted up and carried away to his time out area, and snapped at the owner. So as DBB said, a correction should be unpleasant, it would surely not be that odd if the dog knows he is being taken away for a time out, he then freaks out about it?

But why would you think water will make the dog fearful if the time out doesn't, in your opinion?

I would love to hear what other people think is acceptable corrections as well, just so the thread is not only about water spray bottles.

Well I can't speak for that, because I cannot lift my dog. He goes on time out when I tell him to, I don't have to lift him. Regardless, if I tried I would probably hurt him since he has arthritis. And if I really hurt him, I would expect to get bitten.

If someone sprayed water in my face, I would probably take a swing at whatever was in front of me in an attempt to get it to stop. Might come in contact with the bottle, or someone's face.

DBB

Plain__Jane wrote: »

@DBB thanks for explaining. Would you consider using water as a correction on par with hitting your dog?
When you put your dog in a time out, do you lift the dog up or how do you get the dog into the time out area?

I'm really surprised with peoples reaction to water, interesting to hear peoples opinions though!!

I didn't get the impression from your op that your dog is going around dripping wet the whole time, don't worry :-)
It's not painful, squirting water at them. Well, I suppose it could be in some circumstances, but no, generally not. The problem with it is that it creates a startle response, and as a rule, training ethical standards do no approve of the use of startle responses to train a dog. They're too far along the fear continuum for most, bearing in mind what I posted above about degrees of punishment.
You've probably gathered by now that no, I wouldn't consider a squirt of water to be on the same level as hitting a dog. I don't like either, but I dislike hitting more than I dislike squirting!
The dog should be on a lead when being put on a time-out. For the duration of the time-out training, the dog should be trailing a lead around the house (under supervision only). When he does something bold, he gets his warning, and if he ignores that, he gets his time-out, the owner telling him "that's it" (or the like), then calmly picking up the lead to bring the dog to the time-out area, with no talking, looking, manhandling etc. The lead allows the owner to not have to touch the dog, or plead with the dog, either of which could reinforce the unwanted behaviour!

Plain__Jane

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Well I can't speak for that, because I cannot lift my dog. He goes on time out when I tell him to, I don't have to lift him. Regardless, if I tried I would probably hurt him since he has arthritis. And if I really hurt him, I would expect to get bitten.

If someone sprayed water in my face, I would probably take a swing at whatever was in front of me in an attempt to get it to stop. Might come in contact with the bottle, or someone's face.

But does your dog walk happily into the time out area? How often would you use the time out as a correction for your dog?
Has it sorted the undesired behaviour in your dog?

But why would you need to spray the dog in their face? You can spray on his back, his neck, anywhere but the face surely. As I mentioned before, when you use the spray bottle you do not point it at the dogs face, the dog will not even see the bottle, it's hidden behind your back.
The times I have used it I did find it effective, the dog did stop the undesired behaviour. which is of course what you want with a correction.
I did not have to use it more than twice, which again is what I would want from an effective correction.

For some reason correction sounds so harsh, I would never ever hit my dogs or use any other 'physical correction', I just find water being one of the most gentle corrections to use, and it worked for me.

Plain__Jane

DBB wrote: »

I didn't get the impression from your op that your dog is going around dripping wet the whole time, don't worry :-)
It's not painful, squirting water at them. Well, I suppose it could be in some circumstances, but no, generally not. The problem with it is that it creates a startle response, and as a rule, training ethical standards do no approve of the use of startle responses to train a dog. They're too far along the fear continuum for most, bearing in mind what I posted above about degrees of punishment.
You've probably gathered by now that no, I wouldn't consider a squirt of water to be on the same level as hitting a dog. I don't like either, but I dislike hitting more than I dislike squirting!
The dog should be on a lead when being put on a time-out. For the duration of the time-out training, the dog should be trailing a lead around the house (under supervision only). When he does something bold, he gets his warning, and if he ignores that, he gets his time-out, the owner telling him "that's it" (or the like), then calmly picking up the lead to bring the dog to the time-out area, with no talking, looking, manhandling etc. The lead allows the owner to not have to touch the dog, or plead with the dog, either of which could reinforce the unwanted behaviour!

haha phew, no that's not the case for sure.

The no touch I would agree on, when using the time out correction
I have tried the time out correction as well, but it just made one of my dogs very stressed, so that's when I went for the water option, and it worked real well. The jumping up, which was the issue with my dog, did stop after using it. And I really don't think it had any long term damage to my dog. Again, it was just water in the bottle, nothing else :P

ShaShaBear

Plain__Jane wrote: »

But does your dog walk happily into the time out area? How often would you use the time out as a correction for your dog?
Has it sorted the undesired behaviour in your dog?

But why would you need to spray the dog in their face? You can spray on his back, his neck, anywhere but the face surely. As I mentioned before, when you use the spray bottle you do not point it at the dogs face, the dog will not even see the bottle, it's hidden behind your back.
The times I have used it I did find it effective, the dog did stop the undesired behaviour. which is of course what you want with a correction.
I did not have to use it more than twice, which again is what I would want from an effective correction.

For some reason correction sounds so harsh, I would never ever hit my dogs or use any other 'physical correction', I just find water being one of the most gentle corrections to use, and it worked for me.

If I sprayed water on my dog's back, he would assume it was bath time. He's not afraid of water. He of course does not go happily, but he certainly does not snarl. He looks at me, and then does what he is told. Since he's now 8, I don't ever really have to do it. The last time he went on time out was 10 months ago, when he jumped up on my uncle's legs again after being told not to. My uncle just had a hip replacement and it really hurt him. I told Shadow to go time out, so he went. I waited about a minute, allowing him to get there and about 40 second on the stair, and then opened the kitchen door. He knows this means it is time to come in. He didn't jump on my uncle's knee again.

I would be even more concerned with spraying a dog if they didn't know where it was coming from. I can't imagine how unsettling and confusing it is for a dog to be randomly sprayed with water, especially if they don't like it. How are they supposed to know that it means they did something bold? Do you accompany it with a verbal indication of punishment to let the dog know that you in fact punished him?

Plain__Jane

ShaShaBear wrote: »

If I sprayed water on my dog's back, he would assume it was bath time. He's not afraid of water. He of course does not go happily, but he certainly does not snarl. He looks at me, and then does what he is told. Since he's now 8, I don't ever really have to do it. The last time he went on time out was 10 months ago, when he jumped up on my uncle's legs again after being told not to. My uncle just had a hip replacement and it really hurt him. I told Shadow to go time out, so he went. I waited about a minute, allowing him to get there and about 40 second on the stair, and then opened the kitchen door. He knows this means it is time to come in. He didn't jump on my uncle's knee again.

I would be even more concerned with spraying a dog if they didn't know where it was coming from. I can't imagine how unsettling and confusing it is for a dog to be randomly sprayed with water, especially if they don't like it. How are they supposed to know that it means they did something bold? Do you accompany it with a verbal indication of punishment to let the dog know that you in fact punished him?

If you are using an area like the kitchen, would that not potentially make the dog scared of going in to the kitchen? He might think he is being put in a time out if you call him in to the kitchen?
Would it not be more effective to use a time out area where the dog would never use in normal circumstances?

As the water would be the last resort for me, I would not use a verbal commend to go with it. I would have tried that previously, and it did not stop the behaviour I wanted to correct, hence why I used the spray bottle.

Is there not supposed to be a surprise element to a correction? As in, dog jumps up, I spray the dog with water, the dog will think, 'what the hell just happened', and then refrain from doing it again?
Maybe I have gotten it all wrong :P

ShaShaBear

Plain__Jane wrote: »

If you are using an area like the kitchen, would that not potentially make the dog scared of going in to the kitchen? He might think he is being put in a time out if you call him in to the kitchen?
Would it not be more effective to use a time out area where the dog would never use in normal circumstances?

As the water would be the last resort for me, I would not use a verbal commend to go with it. I would have tried that previously, and it did not stop the behaviour I wanted to correct, hence why I used the spray bottle.

Is there not supposed to be a surprise element to a correction? As in, dog jumps up, I spray the dog with water, the dog will think, 'what the hell just happened', and then refrain from doing it again?
Maybe I have gotten it all wrong :P

If your dog is surprised he got punished, then he didn't know he was doing anything to get punished for. He really shouldn't be surprised. He knows it's wrong, was warned not to do it again, and then was punished. He could just as easily be afraid to turn his back to you in case it happens again.


No, it's on the bottom stair leading into the garage in the hall. He is never there unless he has been bold.

If you spray him with water, he doesn't see you do it, he doesn't see where it come from, then how can he deduce that it was because he jumped on you?
If he has no idea that he is doing something wrong, then he can't see the water as a punishment. And if you startle him, he is likely going to stop doing what he is doing to find out where that water came from! Just like if you were reading the newspaper and heard a crash outside your living room window, you would put down the paper and go have a look to see where the crash came from. You wouldn't think "I better not read the paper any more lest I cause more crashes"

Hopefully you see what I mean here. Essentially you could achieve the same result by clapping your hands loudly. Or letting out a high pitched squeal.

Plain__Jane

ShaShaBear wrote: »

If your dog is surprised he got punished, then he didn't know he was doing anything to get punished for. He really shouldn't be surprised. He knows it's wrong, was warned not to do it again, and then was punished. He could just as easily be afraid to turn his back to you in case it happens again.


No, it's on the bottom stair leading into the garage in the hall. He is never there unless he has been bold.

If you spray him with water, he doesn't see you do it, he doesn't see where it come from, then how can he deduce that it was because he jumped on you?
If he has no idea that he is doing something wrong, then he can't see the water as a punishment. And if you startle him, he is likely going to stop doing what he is doing to find out where that water came from! Just like if you were reading the newspaper and heard a crash outside your living room window, you would put down the paper and go have a look to see where the crash came from. You wouldn't think "I better not read the paper any more lest I cause more crashes"

Hopefully you see what I mean here. Essentially you could achieve the same result by clapping your hands loudly. Or letting out a high pitched squeal.

Ah okay, that makes sense so

Well if he has an unpleasant experience while jumping up, as would be the case with any correction used, I'm not sure how he wouldn't associate it with the jumping up.

Well as I said in the previous posts, I would have tried what you mentioned first, but that did not work, that's when I tried the water, which did work straight away

Would people consider I have done the wrong thing? Considering it worked, and I have never had to use a correction again on my dog for jumping up. He does not jump up on me, or other people anymore.

ShaShaBear

Plain__Jane wrote: »

Ah okay, that makes sense so

Well if he has an unpleasant experience while jumping up, as would be the case with any correction used, I'm not sure how he wouldn't associate it with the jumping up.

Well as I said in the previous posts, I would have tried what you mentioned first, but that did not work, that's when I tried the water, which did work straight away

Would people consider I have done the wrong thing? Considering it worked, and I have never had to use a correction again on my dog for jumping up. He does not jump up on me, or other people anymore.

Simply because, unfortunately, we have no idea what dogs are thinking. He may be jumping on you, but perhaps in his head he is thinking "I want up on your lap for a cuddle". Maybe he associates the unpleasant experience with that, or maybe he is thinking "Please please I have no other idea how to get your attention but there is a nasty old cat in the garden, please let me out at him!" and he is associating the bad experience with that!

Realistically, teaching him "down" or "get down" would be far easier. He gets plenty of rewards for learning a new trick, and the verbal command, once he knows and understands it, can not be mistaken for something else. For all you know, again since we cant read dogs minds, is that your verbal warnings actually paid off and that's why he no longer does it. Perhaps you not petting him when he jumped on you taught him that this won't work for attention, and he simply isn't bothered any more.

My dog conveniently knows a few tricks that, unbeknownst to him, were taught in order to stop him being bold. They are:
Wait.
Down.
Off.
Shhh.
Drop.

All pretty self explanatory. If he is barking and I tell him to Shh, he stops, because he knows the word means no barking. If he does not shhh, I ask him again. He always stops at this stage or initially, but lets say he doesn't. I then put him on time out, as he knows he directly disobeyed my order for him to shhh. He understands I asked him to stop barking, and he knows he didn't. But really with the positive training of giving him tasty treats for stopping the barking when I say Shhh, when I do say it he stops immediately, hoping to get the praise he has associated with reacting to this word the way I taught him to. The same goes for wait, which means do not move until I tell you to (great for food, open doors, greeting people etc), down which means stop jumping on people, off which means get off the furniture (he is allowed on it, but if we have friends over I'll tell him to get off to make space - again he is happy to do so as he has always been positively rewarded for doing it) and finally drop, which means let go of whatever is in your mouth.

Basically as DBB said, ridiculous amounts of treats and praise for responding to a verbal command the way I want him to will motivate him. Just like if you train a dog to sit, he will be so excited when you say sit, and will do it with such gusto, because he is hoping for an extra special treat or belly rub. A lot of people still have trouble realising you can essentially trick your dog into having the same frame of mind with bad behaviour.

Plain__Jane

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Simply because, unfortunately, we have no idea what dogs are thinking. He may be jumping on you, but perhaps in his head he is thinking "I want up on your lap for a cuddle". Maybe he associates the unpleasant experience with that, or maybe he is thinking "Please please I have no other idea how to get your attention but there is a nasty old cat in the garden, please let me out at him!" and he is associating the bad experience with that!

Realistically, teaching him "down" or "get down" would be far easier. He gets plenty of rewards for learning a new trick, and the verbal command, once he knows and understands it, can not be mistaken for something else. For all you know, again since we cant read dogs minds, is that your verbal warnings actually paid off and that's why he no longer does it. Perhaps you not petting him when he jumped on you taught him that this won't work for attention, and he simply isn't bothered any more.

My dog conveniently knows a few tricks that, unbeknownst to him, were taught in order to stop him being bold. They are:
Wait.
Down.
Off.
Shhh.
Drop.

All pretty self explanatory. If he is barking and I tell him to Shh, he stops, because he knows the word means no barking. If he does not shhh, I ask him again. He always stops at this stage or initially, but lets say he doesn't. I then put him on time out, as he knows he directly disobeyed my order for him to shhh. He understands I asked him to stop barking, and he knows he didn't. But really with the positive training of giving him tasty treats for stopping the barking when I say Shhh, when I do say it he stops immediately, hoping to get the praise he has associated with reacting to this word the way I taught him to. The same goes for wait, which means do not move until I tell you to (great for food, open doors, greeting people etc), down which means stop jumping on people, off which means get off the furniture (he is allowed on it, but if we have friends over I'll tell him to get off to make space - again he is happy to do so as he has always been positively rewarded for doing it) and finally drop, which means let go of whatever is in your mouth.

Basically as DBB said, ridiculous amounts of treats and praise for responding to a verbal command the way I want him to will motivate him. Just like if you train a dog to sit, he will be so excited when you say sit, and will do it with such gusto, because he is hoping for an extra special treat or belly rub. A lot of people still have trouble realising you can essentially trick your dog into having the same frame of mind with bad behaviour.

But again, the water would have been used as a last resort correction. I would have tried several different things before using it. And I would have persisted with it, I'm not one to give up easily or one to lose my patience. But finally I decided I had to try something different as I needed the jumping up to stop. I personally don't find that an excited dog that is jumping up on you listens well to a verbal command like down. It can make them even more excitable.

I would be all for using treats and rewarding good behaviour, this is something I would always have done with both of my dogs. It's part of the training sure. But I would not agree with your shh method for stopping your dog from barking, it sounds more like he will think he gets rewarded for barking.
But this was not my original question though :P

I'm more interested in hearing what people think is an acceptable correction, and what corrections you use yourself, like the timeout method you use for instance.

ShaShaBear

Plain__Jane wrote: »

But again, the water would have been used as a last resort correction. I would have tried several different things before using it. And I would have persisted with it, I'm not one to give up easily or one to lose my patience. But finally I decided I had to try something different as I needed the jumping up to stop. I personally don't find that an excited dog that is jumping up on you listens well to a verbal command like down. It can make them even more excitable.

I would be all for using treats and rewarding good behaviour, this is something I would always have done with both of my dogs. It's part of the training sure. But I would not agree with your shh method for stopping your dog from barking, it sounds more like he will think he gets rewarded for barking.
But this was not my original question though :P

I'm more interested in hearing what people think is an acceptable correction, and what corrections you use yourself, like the timeout method you use for instance.

No, he knows the verbal command speak, and the verbal command shhh separately - so when he is barking at a cat from the patio doors and I say shh, he knows I am asking him to stop. He won't bark at me for no reason hoping Ill say shhh and give him a treat. Shadow is clever, but he is definitely not that clever

To answer your question, I do not believe in any form of correction that will result in your dog displaying fear to a physical object, be that a hand, a bottle of water, water itself, a stick etc. It can come back to bite you in the bum later, when you are doing something perfectly innocent that the dog imagines is actually about to result in his punishment. I have seen a dog who is terrified of water because of the spray bottle correction. The owners have since learned that they are never going to be able to give him a bath, and he will never enjoy fetching sticks in a lake.

All dogs are different, but just because something works well with one dog does not make it right, nor does it mean that it will work for every dog. All it takes is for the dog to have the wrong sort of temperament and that fear can cause serious problems.

Plain__Jane

ShaShaBear wrote: »

No, he knows the verbal command speak, and the verbal command shhh separately - so when he is barking at a cat from the patio doors and I say shh, he knows I am asking him to stop. He won't bark at me for no reason hoping Ill say shhh and give him a treat. Shadow is clever, but he is definitely not that clever

To answer your question, I do not believe in any form of correction that will result in your dog displaying fear to a physical object, be that a hand, a bottle of water, water itself, a stick etc. It can come back to bite you in the bum later, when you are doing something perfectly innocent that the dog imagines is actually about to result in his punishment. I have seen a dog who is terrified of water because of the spray bottle correction. The owners have since learned that they are never going to be able to give him a bath, and he will never enjoy fetching sticks in a lake.

All dogs are different, but just because something works well with one dog does not make it right, nor does it mean that it will work for every dog. All it takes is for the dog to have the wrong sort of temperament and that fear can cause serious problems.

To be fair that sounds like an over the top reaction to the water bottle. Of course I don't know how the owner used it, but I did not have this issue with my dog.

I do not think I scared the living daylight out of my dog by using water on him, he is not scared of me or of water. Again, maybe it was the way I used it

Of course, you need to use different methods depending on the dog, so I agree with you fully on that point.

One thing I have seen over and over when out walking is, a dog jumps up on the owner and the owner shouts to the dog, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit. The dog might eventually sit, or the owner sometimes gives up, and eventually pushes the dog down. With a verbal command like that it just does not work, I can almost guarantee you that the owner will have to do the same thing over and over, then to me it's not working. You need to try something different.

ShaShaBear

Plain__Jane wrote: »

To be fair that sounds like an over the top reaction to the water bottle. Of course I don't know how the owner used it, but I did not have this issue with my dog.

I do not think I scared the living daylight out of my dog by using water on him, he is not scared of me or of water. Again, maybe it was the way I used it

Of course, you need to use different methods depending on the dog, so I agree with you fully on that point.

One thing I have seen over and over when out walking is, a dog jumps up on the owner and the owner shouts to the dog, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit. The dog might eventually sit, or the owner sometimes gives up, and eventually pushes the dog down. With a verbal command like that it just does not work, I can almost guarantee you that the owner will have to do the same thing over and over, then to me it's not working. You need to try something different.

In my opinion, but again because I know my dog, if he stopped obeying verbal commands, I would go back to basics and teach them to him again. It could be quite possible in that case that you described, that the dog was not asked to sit on a regular basis, and they just assumed (as most people would, so there is nothing wrong with it!) that since the dog was taught the trick, they would do it. I go over my dog's arsenal of tricks daily. It's mental stimulation for him (since he can't walk so much any more) and I mix up the order so it helps him get out of the cheeky habit of knowing which trick comes next and doing it before I ask I imagine if, for the next three months, I never again asked him to sit, he might have a bit of trouble understanding me when I eventually did say it.

Plain__Jane

ShaShaBear wrote: »

In my opinion, but again because I know my dog, if he stopped obeying verbal commands, I would go back to basics and teach them to him again. It could be quite possible in that case that you described, that the dog was not asked to sit on a regular basis, and they just assumed (as most people would, so there is nothing wrong with it!) that since the dog was taught the trick, they would do it. I go over my dog's arsenal of tricks daily. It's mental stimulation for him (since he can't walk so much any more) and I mix up the order so it helps him get out of the cheeky habit of knowing which trick comes next and doing it before I ask I imagine if, for the next three months, I never again asked him to sit, he might have a bit of trouble understanding me when I eventually did say it.

I actually think this is more because some dog owners, don't follow through with that the owner asks the dog to do.
And the repeating of commands it's not something I would be a fan of either way. I want my dog to listen straight away, I don't want to have to ask them ten times before they listen to me. Of course this is something you teach them gradually, I would not expect a young pup to get it straight away

ShaShaBear

Plain__Jane wrote: »

I actually think this is more because some dog owners, don't follow through with that the owner asks the dog to do.
And the repeating of commands it's not something I would be a fan of either way. I want my dog to listen straight away, I don't want to have to ask them ten times before they listen to me. Of course this is something you teach them gradually, I would not expect a young pup to get it straight away

Oh you're right, sometimes people just give up on the command, and give the dog a treat anyway, or give the dog a treat for "almost" getting it right, which is no good. Some dogs have a much shorter attention span than others when it comes to commands. Its just a matter of finding out what holds their attention the longest.

Oh and I meant I spend a few minutes every day going over Shadow's tricks, not that I have to teach him every day. Its actually because we have trouble getting him to eat at regular times, so he performs his tricks for his nuts instead. They apparently taste 27 times nicer from my hand than they do from a metal bowl :rolleyes:

DBB

Plain__Jane wrote: »

If you are using an area like the kitchen, would that not potentially make the dog scared of going in to the kitchen? He might think he is being put in a time out if you call him in to the kitchen?
Would it not be more effective to use a time out area where the dog would never use in normal circumstances?

It's always been a thing amongst trainers that the dog should not be put on a time-out in a place you don't want him associating with punishment. However, there is a question mark over this now. A nice example I was given by a well-known behaviourist was punishing a child by sending them to their room. This is a time-out, and I know one that I was subjected to on the very few occasions I was bold :P
It didn't teach me to hate my bedroom though. It did teach me to hate the not being able to do what I wanted to do!

As the water would be the last resort for me, I would not use a verbal commend to go with it. I would have tried that previously, and it did not stop the behaviour I wanted to correct, hence why I used the spray bottle.

Can you tell me, as one of the things you tried to stop him jumping up, did this include you disappearing? Just turning and walking right out of the room, every time he did it?
I'm asking because every dog, and I've met some serious, serious jumper-uppers, eventually responded to this, in conjunction with asking them to sit instead. Now, very occasionally, you'd have to turn your back and retreat dozens of times in the first few hours, but even the worst dogs eventually stopped jumping after quite a short time, and then started sitting because this was all that'd work for them.

Is there not supposed to be a surprise element to a correction? As in, dog jumps up, I spray the dog with water, the dog will think, 'what the hell just happened', and then refrain from doing it again?

A correction, in the traditional sense, means giving the dog a fright, and/or causing it pain/discomfort, in order to stop it carrying out a behaviour. Corrections in this context are now considered unacceptable because there are kinder, less potentially damaging consequences we can offer for unwanted behaviours.
You'll note my emphasis on the word "potentially", because whilst some corrections will really psychologically harm most dogs (they're pretty obvious!), there are milder corrections that won't do such damage to all dogs.. but the trouble is they will do damage to some dogs.
Now, no owner can know in advance whether theirs is going to fall into the first (undamaged) category, or the second (damaged) category, so it really is a game of Russian Roulette for the dog. I suppose that's one of the reasons why people get so upset here when owners come asking for advice about, say, choke chains, radio collars, remote-control e-collars, anti-bark collars etc etc, because we know there's a risk when using these things, but there is no way of telling in advance whether the dog is going to be unaffected, or devastated by it. But the owner ploughs ahead and uses the thing anyway.

Not that I want for a moment to put a water spray in the same category as any of the above, but the same basic point remains... whilst it worked on your dog, I know so many dogs who have reacted really badly to it, including several dogs who have actually attacked their owners when they see the bottle coming out
There have also been incidents where the dog did not necessarily associate the water spray with jumping up (or whatever), but "blames" the unpleasant jet of water on the child/dog/cat that happened to be standing nearby.
There is also the possibility, and I'm just throwing it out there, that it worked so well on your dog because he found it an utterly and completely awful experience, not just mildly aversive. I don't want to make you feel bad, but it is a possibility. In fact, if it worked after just one or two repetitions, it could be argued that is is a distinct possibility.
I've been there myself you know! I was a water-squirting, coke-can rattling, choke-chain-using, radio-fence-using dog owner once! Then I went and studied animal behaviour and welfare

Again, it comes down to degree, doesn't it? For me, and for trainers and behaviourists who have signed up to professional organisations with codes of conduct/ethics etc, there is always a kinder option, an option which will not pose a risk to the dog's future behaviour. There is the bottom line for a good trainer, an expression coined by Karen Pryor (clicker training doyenne): Do No Harm. We cannot embrace that if we use aversives in training.

Maybe I have gotten it all wrong :P

Whilst I wouldn't agree with you having used the water bottle, bearing in mind I used to use them myself too, I have to say I utterly applaud you for asking questions here, and trying to gain an understanding of the nuts and bolts of why X works, why Y doesn't, and what's the grey area in between! I think it's great to be able to discuss these things rationally

IvySlayer

I know if I used a water bottle my dog would lap it up and love it! I don't get the water bottle, if you catch him in the act do you run and get it and then spray him? He'd of probably forgotten what he did by then!

Stamping your feet followed by a loud NO is usually good enough.

DBB

Plain__Jane wrote: »

One thing I have seen over and over when out walking is, a dog jumps up on the owner and the owner shouts to the dog, sit, sit, sit, sit, sit. The dog might eventually sit, or the owner sometimes gives up, and eventually pushes the dog down. With a verbal command like that it just does not work, I can almost guarantee you that the owner will have to do the same thing over and over, then to me it's not working. You need to try something different.

Well, to me this is 100% because the dog has not actually learned to sit on command at all! I know what you mean, I've seen it happening again and again, not just with the sit, but with the recall, the wait, the stop, whatever... the owner has never, in my experience at least, actually taught the verbal command to the dog (presumably expecting the dog to have full command of the english language from birth), or at best have half taught it to the dog, but have not generalised it anywhere near enough to be able to expect it to work in high-pressure situations.
So the different thing these owners need to try is to teach the command properly, then gradually build in distractions and different environments.

Plain__Jane

@DBB - I know what you mean, I'm not sure dogs would have the same thought process as humans though, it's interesting to hear though.

I did try the disappearing as well. I would have turned around and walked out of the room, but of no avail. I have a stubborn little collie x(I have two rescue dogs, a lab as well as the collie x) :P

But with corrections, do you think that you should have do it over and over until the dogs gets it, or should it not be enough to do a correction once or twice for it to be an effective correction? Will it not be more harmful to say put your dog in a time out room every week for the rest of his life rather than sorting out the issue quickly?

I have heard of Karen Pryor and I have tired some clicker training with my collie, he responded to it real well

And thanks for being so helpful, I was worried I was going to be attacked by mentioning the water spray bottle :P


Forgot to say, no I don't think he got that scared of the correction used, he walked off, went to his bed for a lie down for about ten minutes or so, then he was back up being his normal self.

DBB

Plain__Jane wrote: »

I did try the disappearing as well. I would have turned around and walked out of the room, but of no avail. I have a stubborn little collie x(I have two rescue dogs, a lab as well as the collie x) :P

Okay, next question, how long did you stick with this for?
If you really exhausted it by trying it, every time, for several weeks, then an option for future reference might be to keep the dog on-lead, and as you walk into the room, step on the lead so that the dog can't get any impetus into lift-off. This give you the opportunity to teach him the alternative behaviour you're looking for.

But with corrections, do you think that you should have do it over and over until the dogs gets it, or should it not be enough to do a correction once or twice for it to be an effective correction?

Corrections should work quickly: if they're not working quickly, they're not working. However, again remember the degrees I've been talking about... just because it might happen quickly does not reduce the potential for damage.
In fact, the most effective punishments should work quickly, but remember, just because it is effective does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that it is acceptable, or not damaging.

Will it not be more harmful to say put your dog in a time out room every week for the rest of his life rather than sorting out the issue quickly?

I hope the paragraph above explains why speed should not necessarily be the priority in terms of welfare.
Also, jayney mac! Time-outs should not have to be used every day or week for the rest of the dog's life! Not at all! If they're used properly and consistently, in most cases they should kick in after a few days. Just in case there's something missing from how I've explained them so far, the idea is that if the dog misbehaves, he gets a warning.. say, an "ouch" if he bites (for puppies). If he continues to bite, ignoring this warning, then he gets a verbal "non-reward marker", something like "that's enough!" or ShaSHa's "Time-Out Time", followed immediately with being put on time-out.
And so, you get to the stage that when you say "that's enough", the dog will stop, because he now knows that this verbal noise means there's an unwanted consequence coming if he continues.
Once this stage has been reached, then an occasional time-out may be needed if the dog oversteps the mark again, but in many cases, the time-outs can disappear altogether after a period of time.

I have heard of Karen Pryor and I have tired some clicker training with my collie, he responded to it real well

Did you try it to get him to sit instead of jumping up? Clicker training is great!

And thanks for being so helpful, I was worried I was going to be attacked by mentioning the water spray bottle :P

I think you came across as very open-minded from the start, and I'm sure that thanks to this, others will get more out of this thread than if it had descended into the madness these threads can end up in
So thank you

Plain__Jane

DBB wrote: »

Okay, next question, how long did you stick with this for?
If you really exhausted it by trying it, every time, for several weeks, then an option for future reference might be to keep the dog on-lead, and as you walk into the room, step on the lead so that the dog can't get any impetus into lift-off. This give you the opportunity to teach him the alternative behaviour you're looking for.



Corrections should work quickly: if they're not working quickly, they're not working. However, again remember the degrees I've been talking about... just because it might happen quickly does not reduce the potential for damage.
In fact, the most effective punishments should work quickly, but remember, just because it is effective does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, that it is acceptable, or not damaging.



I hope the paragraph above explains why speed should not necessarily be the priority in terms of welfare.
Also, jayney mac! Time-outs should not have to be used every day or week for the rest of the dog's life! Not at all! If they're used properly and consistently, in most cases they should kick in after a few days. Just in case there's something missing from how I've explained them so far, the idea is that if the dog misbehaves, he gets a warning.. say, an "ouch" if he bites (for puppies). If he continues to bite, ignoring this warning, then he gets a verbal "non-reward marker", something like "that's enough!" or ShaSHa's "Time-Out Time", followed immediately with being put on time-out.
And so, you get to the stage that when you say "that's enough", the dog will stop, because he now knows that this verbal noise means there's an unwanted consequence coming if he continues.
Once this stage has been reached, then an occasional time-out may be needed if the dog oversteps the mark again, but in many cases, the time-outs can disappear altogether after a period of time.




Did you try it to get him to sit instead of jumping up? Clicker training is great!



I think you came across as very open-minded from the start, and I'm sure that thanks to this, others will get more out of this thread than if it had descended into the madness these threads can end up in
So thank you

I tried this for a couple of months, which I thought felt a bit too long even :P So I put in the time and effort in trying that way, and other ways and methods as well. He just did not get it.
With other things he was so quick in coping on, with play biting and just with general commands as well, so I was surprised he did not respond.

And I would think the same way as you, I think any correction needs to be cut out after a period of time.
When he was jumping he did not respond well to verbal commands, he was fairly excited when he jumped up, so it simply just seemed to get him more worked up unfortunately. So the sit did not work either, I tried it as well.

I'm glad to hear that!

Plain__Jane

Oh just one more question, how do people feel about the pet corrector sprays? They seem to be available to buy in most pet shops.

DBB

Plain__Jane wrote: »

Oh just one more question, how do people feel about the pet corrector sprays? They seem to be available to buy in most pet shops.

They're no better, ethically, than a squirty bottle, but can be even more aversive to some dogs because of the noise they make.
Pet shops also sell choke chains and shock collars, which makes this sort of gear easily available to people who have no idea how to use them, and whilst I disagree with the use of aversives of training, I seriously disagree with the abuse of aversives, which is often the result of selling these things to the uninitiated

Plain__Jane

DBB wrote: »

They're no better, ethically, than a squirty bottle, but can be even more aversive to some dogs because of the noise they make.
Pet shops also sell choke chains and shock collars, which makes this sort of gear easily available to people who have no idea how to use them, and whilst I disagree with the use of aversives of training, I seriously disagree with the abuse of aversives, which is often the result of selling these things to the uninitiated

That's fair enough. I would not be a fan of the shock collars and choke chains myself either.
I read about a type of collar that blows air in the dogs face, like a little gust of air, it's the same idea as the shock collar, you have a remote control for it. If the dog misbehaves the collar will blow air in their face. After you press the remote of course.

DBB

Plain__Jane wrote: »

That's fair enough. I would not be a fan of the shock collars and choke chains myself either.
I read about a type of collar that blows air in the dogs face, like a little gust of air, it's the same idea as the shock collar, you have a remote control for it. If the dog misbehaves the collar will blow air in their face. After you press the remote of course.

That's right. Obviously not as bad as an electric shock, but still unpleasant. These things work on the premise that they're unpleasant.. they wouldn't work otherwise! Again, open to abuse in a big way in the hands of the uninitiated.