Insulin resistance and BCAA

Hardonraging

Perhaps somebody can shine some light on this for me.. A certain somebody is insulin resistant, but has been making good progress again recently by cutting back on his complex carb's too 50 grm's every second day, in the form of oats, you can assume he's munching away on all the green veg he can find at both lunch time and dinner time, and he's also hitting his protein and fat macro's.

Moving on, he's training 4 times a week, mix of resistance and cardio, taking protien before and after the gym.

Ok, my question is !! BCAA is for the upkeep of muscle, to prevent it being broken down by the body while on a low carb diet ..

Given said person suffers from IR, is the BCAA doing more harm than good ?

Mickery

Just reading about this yesterday. Apparently leucine, one of the BCAAs, can raise insulin levels even in the absence of blood sugar.

Taken from Carb Back Loading by John Kiefer:

"Other amino acids only increase insulin secretion in the presence of ample amounts of blood sugar, but not leucine"

Study quoted:

Matschinsky F M, Ellerman J, Stillings S. et al Hexones and insulin secretion. In: Hasselblatt A, Bruchhausen FV, eds. Handbook of experimental pharmacology. Berlin: Springer-Verlag, 1975. 79–114.114.

Hardonraging

Mickery wrote: »

Just reading about this yesterday. Apparently leucine, one of the BCAAs, can raise insulin levels even in the absence of blood sugar.

Taken from Carb Back Loading by John Kiefer:

"Other amino acids only increase insulin secretion in the presence of ample amounts of blood sugar, but not leucine"

Study quoted:

Matschinsky F M, Ellerman J, Stillings S. et al Hexones and insulin secretion. In: Hasselblatt A, Bruchhausen FV, eds. Handbook of experimental pharmacology. Berlin: Springer-Verlag, 1975. 79–114.114.

Ohh scary, think we might have been reading the same thing, or at least something that referenced the same fact ..

It's prob not giving the same end result as say, munching a load of complex carbs, spiking the insulin and storing it as fat .

At least i hope .... ( he said thinking about not buying another tub of orange BCAA now )

Danny_Lennon

Hardonraging wrote: »

A certain somebody is insulin resistant, but has been making good progress again recently by cutting back on his complex carb's too 50 grm's every second day, in the form of oats?

Can you just clarify what you mean here. 50g/d carbs every second day and then what on the other days?

Hardonraging

Danny_Lennon wrote: »

Can you just clarify what you mean here. 50g/d carbs every second day and then what on the other days?

50 grams of complex carbs, ever second day, the other carb's are standard veg, kale, spinach, broccoli etc ... there's no limit to those in terms of day's eaten, they are included everyday, at practically every meal... bar brekky.

lim abroad

So long as its consumed post exercise then there will be no negative effect as it will be transported into the muscle cells for protein synthesis

Hardonraging

lim abroad wrote: »

So long as its consumed post exercise then there will be no negative effect as it will be transported into the muscle cells for protein synthesis

But there in lies the issue, fat and muscle cell's become resistant to insulin and will not absorb the glucose from the broken down complex carbs ?

amazingemmet

Hardonraging wrote: »

But there in lies the issue, fat and muscle cell's become resistant to insulin and will not absorb the glucose from the broken down complex carbs ?

There's non insulin dependent mechanisms of glucose transportation.

Hardonraging

amazingemmet wrote: »

There's non insulin dependent mechanisms of glucose transportation.

Emmet with the magic phrasing there to get me thinking again appreciate that kick in the right direction.

One or two things, A) BF% reduction is the over all goal, and BCAA's ...well, for the moment i'm more interested in if they would have a negative given the resistance is there in general ..

BCAA's post W/O it would appear would be shuttled in to the muscles straight away .

Mickery

Resistance training itself will preferentially shuttle the glucose to muscle over fat independently of insulin conditions. Again, from the book mentioned above. Lots of studies cited.

amazingemmet

One thing people need to be wary of is Kiefer, read his book and you'll see he uses studies to prove his point in title which actually disprove it when you read the whole thing.

Also I think taking carbs out of the diet everyday can be a mistake for insulin resistant people as you need to have some in there to give the body something to re-learn how to use insulin. One of the counter intuitive things about insulin resistant people is the first thing you should be looking for is an increase in weight while not taking any metaformin.

lim abroad

Exercise has an insulin like effect, it causes translocation of glut 4 to the cell membrane which facilitates the transport of glucose and other substances into the cells. This occurs irrespective of whether insulin is present or not

Hardonraging

amazingemmet wrote: »

Also I think taking carbs out of the diet everyday can be a mistake for insulin resistant people as you need to have some in there to give the body something to re-learn how to use insulin. One of the counter intuitive things about insulin resistant people is the first thing you should be looking for is an increase in weight while not taking any metaformin.

It's only the complex carb's i rotate, I eat, a small horse load of none complex green / veg everyday, altho I do appreciate the point, it's prob better to built it up.

lim abroad wrote: »

Exercise has an insulin like effect, it causes translocation of glut 4 to the cell membrane which facilitates the transport of glucose and other substances into the cells. This occurs irrespective of whether insulin is present or not

'Like effect' Very different to complex carb's and the sugar the break down to .. but yo do have a point. they do maintain that regular exercise coupled with a low carb life style can help control IR..

Might look to IF to try and tame the insulin further ...

Anybody got a good post work out suggestion for oats + protein .. that's handy ...

Hanley

Just curious if you know exactly how many kcals you've eaten daily for the last 30 days via weighing and measuring your food, and what sort of results you've seen?

lim abroad

Hardonraging wrote: »

It's only the complex carb's i rotate, I eat, a small horse load of none complex green / veg everyday, altho I do appreciate the point, it's prob better to built it up.




'Like effect' Very different to complex carb's and the sugar the break down to .. but yo do have a point. they do maintain that regular exercise coupled with a low carb life style can help control IR..

Might look to IF to try and tame the insulin further ...

Anybody got a good post work out suggestion for oats + protein .. that's handy ...

Let me rephrase that, exercise has the same effect as insulin for transporting glucose into the cells. All carbs are broken down to glucose in the gut which is then transported through the bloodstream to be taken up by active tissues for glycogen synthesis

Hardonraging

Hanley wrote: »

Just curious if you know exactly how many kcals you've eaten daily for the last 30 days via weighing and measuring your food, and what sort of results you've seen?

I'd have a fairly accurate idea it's around the 1800/2000 mark, will work out the figures either way.

I know i'm not in a surplus that's for sure.


I've seen 'gainz' in the last 30 days, just not where i'd expect to see them ...

Hardonraging

2200 Kcals today .. so far, broken down like .......

284 P - 86 - F 64 - C


i'll have some cottage cheese later on also no doubt .. so let's day ... 2,432 Kcals

Hanley

Hardonraging wrote: »

2200 Kcals today .. so far, broken down like .......

284 P - 86 - F 64 - C


i'll have some cottage cheese later on also no doubt .. so let's day ... 2,432 Kcals

Right, and how much do you weigh? What's your BF%? How many hours a night do you sleep on average? What time do you go to bed? And what did you eat yesterday? And the day before? And they day before that?

...can you see what I'm getting at??

Hardonraging

Hanley wrote: »

Right, and how much do you weigh? What's your BF%? How many hours a night do you sleep on average? What time do you go to bed? And what did you eat yesterday? And the day before? And they day before that?

...can you see what I'm getting at??

I'll pm you but yes consistency, but not via repetition ...

rocky

Did you get tested for insulin resistance?

Hardonraging

rocky wrote: »

Did you get tested for insulin resistance?

It's on the card's, but usually the sign's are pretty obvious .

amazingemmet

Hardonraging wrote: »

It's on the card's, but usually the sign's are pretty obvious .

The signs aren't actually obvious there's host of things which can give the appearance of insulin resistance, cushings disease, PCOS in women off the top of my head

Hardonraging

amazingemmet wrote: »

The signs aren't actually obvious there's host of things which can give the appearance of insulin resistance, cushings disease, PCOS in women off the top of my head

I do appreciate that, and ya only one way to find out for sure, what i can say for certain = complex carbs make me fat...

On a side note, any body ( via pm ) have a recommendation for a doc to visit to discuss this with, as opposed to getting the usual 'it's just your make up'

rocky

It's normal to put a bit of weight when eating carbs after a period of restricting them. It's not fat, mostly water + glycogen.

You'd think if you were resistant to the effects of insulin, carbs wouldn't 'make you fat'?

Hardonraging

rocky wrote: »

It's normal to put a bit of weight when eating carbs after a period of restricting them. It's not fat, mostly water + glycogen.

You'd think if you were resistant to the effects of insulin, carbs wouldn't 'make you fat'?

Yes i can appreciate that it's normal to store a bit once you restart, but i'm talking more from a long term position... Eat carbs, huge insulin spike followed by huge crash... followed by weight gain.

The name 'insulin resistant ' is a back backward alright, given it's the cell's in the body that are resistant to the insulin ..

calfmuscle

can i just ask 2 questions to the posters here.

1) how do you know you are resistant to insulin?

2)do you understand that insulin is essential to life and is released constantly regardless of carbohydrate consumption?

rocky

Hardonraging wrote: »

Yes i can appreciate that it's normal to store a bit once you restart, but i'm talking more from a long term position... Eat carbs, huge insulin spike followed by huge crash... followed by weight gain.

The name 'insulin resistant ' is a back backward alright, given it's the cell's in the body that are resistant to the insulin ..

Are you eating carbs on their own, with no fat/protein? The fat and protein should buffer against the crash.

You might have created that reaction to carbs by restricting them, there's nothing inherently wrong with carbs.

You might be surprised to find that carbs are the most insulin-sensitising macro there is. A low carb diet will create physiological insulin resistance, which means you lose some of the ability to process (large amounts of) carbs, but this is reversible in most cases.

calfmuscle wrote: »

can i just ask 2 questions to the posters here.

1) how do you know you are resistant to insulin?

2)do you understand that insulin is essential to life and is released constantly regardless of carbohydrate consumption?

1 - I'm not - and I don't have tests to prove I'm not.
2 - yes

Hardonraging

calfmuscle wrote: »

can i just ask 2 questions to the posters here.

1) how do you know you are resistant to insulin?

2)do you understand that insulin is essential to life and is released constantly regardless of carbohydrate consumption?

1. It's based on a few things, carb crashing, weight gain, even while on a clean diet.


2.. Insulin is released regardless of Carb or not, carbs .. glucose .. more insulin... etc..

rocky wrote: »

Are you eating carbs on their own, with no fat/protein? The fat and protein should buffer against the crash.

You might have created that reaction to carbs by restricting them, there's nothing inherently wrong with carbs.

You might be surprised to find that carbs are the most insulin-sensitising macro there is. A low carb diet will create physiological insulin resistance, which means you lose some of the ability to process (large amounts of) carbs, but this is reversible in most cases.

Reguardless of balance of carb/fat and protein, the issue is still the same.

The complex carb's are broken down in to glucose, the body lashes out insulin to get the cells to absorb the glucose, the cells say .. na we're cool thanks, here off you go to the fat cells instead.

rocky

Hardonraging wrote: »

Reguardless of balance of carb/fat and protein, the issue is still the same.

The complex carb's are broken down in to glucose, the body lashes out insulin to get the cells to absorb the glucose, the cells say .. na we're cool thanks, here off you go to the fat cells instead.

That's an inaccurate representation of what happens.

Insulin resistance can refer to liver or adipose. So your self-diagnosis appears incorrect.

If your liver was insulin resistant, it would continue breaking down glycogen releasing glucose in the blood, even though you've eaten carbs or protein (unused protein is also broken down to glucose) and your insulin levels are high. So you get elevated blood sugar - not because of eating carbs, but because the liver can't see the insulin. In normal livers, glycogen breakdown stops when insulin increases.

If your fat cells were insulin resistant, the surplus calories would have difficulty getting into them, so excess glucose and fatty acids remain in your blood for long periods, and this causes the problems in metabolic syndrome.

From what you're saying, your fat cells are only too happy to get the glucose into them, which makes them insulin sensitive. Do you know how to stop the fat cells from getting stuffed? Eat at maintenance or a caloric deficit.

Finally, a very small percentage of excess calories that come as carbs are stored as fat (through DNL), most adipose storage is made up of dietary fat.

DNL only becomes significant after 3+ days of carbohydrate overfeeding, that is 4-5000 calories of only carbs, then DNL will be ramped up and carbs will be stored as fat. In most people's normal situations, it's the dietary fat that gets stored as fat - in a caloric excess.

Hardonraging

rocky wrote: »

That's an inaccurate representation of what happens.

Insulin resistance can refer to liver or adipose. So your self-diagnosis appears incorrect.

If your liver was insulin resistant, it would continue breaking down glycogen releasing glucose in the blood, even though you've eaten carbs or protein (unused protein is also broken down to glucose) and your insulin levels are high. So you get elevated blood sugar - not because of eating carbs, but because the liver can't see the insulin. In normal livers, glycogen breakdown stops when insulin increases.

If your fat cells were insulin resistant, the surplus calories would have difficulty getting into them, so excess glucose and fatty acids remain in your blood for long periods, and this causes the problems in metabolic syndrome.

From what you're saying, your fat cells are only too happy to get the glucose into them, which makes them insulin sensitive. Do you know how to stop the fat cells from getting stuffed? Eat at maintenance or a caloric deficit.

Finally, a very small percentage of excess calories that come as carbs are stored as fat (through DNL), most adipose storage is made up of dietary fat.

DNL only becomes significant after 3+ days of carbohydrate overfeeding, that is 4-5000 calories of only carbs, then DNL will be ramped up and carbs will be stored as fat. In most people's normal situations, it's the dietary fat that gets stored as fat - in a caloric excess.

Can you back this up with an article on it ? I'd be interested to read the whole thing ...

My under standing was more 'Insulin’s job is primarily to feed the glucose in your blood stream to hungry cells and then send the leftovers to the liver to be turned into triglycerides for storage in your fat cells'

And there in was where the liver's function was ..

I also fail to see how you can group protein and carbs as having the same reaction, Protein will break down and spike insulin, but complex carb's by there nature are sugar and thus cause the larger spike of insulin, on top of what's already there ?

rocky

If you want to read why insulin is not something to be feared: http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=459 this is part 2, I'm sure you can find part 1 and others on the site

This study - full text here Glycogen storage capacity and de novo lipogenesis during massive carbohydrate overfeeding in man

Is discussed on this blog http://caloriesproper.com/?p=3249

the participants could hardly eat enough carbs per day to get any of those carbs stored as fat.


I’m not saying none of the fat mass in a morbidly obese patient with >50% body fat didn’t come from carbs – no, DNL is constantly occurring, but so is fat oxidation, “turnover,” such that fat balance is maintained. But most of the body fat in the morbidly obese comes from dietary fat. Excess carbs are burned in preference to other fuels and stored as glycogen long before they are converted into body fat. Obesity does not occur due to massive carbohydrate overfeeding; it occurs due the storage of dietary fat, no matter how much or little is consumed.

Mellor

Hardonraging wrote: »

It's only the complex carb's i rotate, I eat, a small horse load of none complex green / veg everyday, altho I do appreciate the point, it's prob better to built it up.

What do you consider complex carbs?
Wouldn't the carbs from veg be mostly complex carbs?

Inspector Coptoor

Mellor wrote: »

What do you consider complex carbs?
Wouldn't the carbs from veg be mostly complex carbs?

In fact, they'd be more complex polysaccharides than starch as they contain way more bonds between individual glucose molecules, giving them a cellulose conformation, which is why we can't digest them fully/at all properly

Hardonraging

Mellor wrote: »

What do you consider complex carbs?
Wouldn't the carbs from veg be mostly complex carbs?

In terms of complex carb, at least in reference to this discussion it's more the starchy complex carbs, pasta, potatoes, rice etc.