Penalty points increases....

Henry Ford III

27/06/2013 - 12:06:26
Transport Minister Leo Varadkar has published a new Bill which will see tougher penalty points introduced for three different road offenses.

Speeding will now attract three points on payment of fixed charge and five on conviction (previously two and four).

Mobile phone use will now attract three points on payment of fixed charge and five on conviction (previously two and four).

Non-wearing of seatbelts will now attract three points on payment of fixed charge and five on conviction (previously two and four).

Other offences such as non-display of an NCT certificate, which at present involve a court appearance, will attract two points on payment of fixed charge.

The legislation also provides for roadside drug impairment tests.

Transport Minister Leo Varadkar says he hopes these will lead to a marked improvement in road safety.

"There's no reliable system of testing on the roadside, in the way that you would with a breathalyser, for example," he said.

"What we are bringing in is evidential testing, so it's proper neurological testing, involving past-pointing and stepping and so on, and gardaí are trained to do that, and that can be then admissible as evidence in court, but ideally it will be backed up by a blood or urine sample as well."

damo86

Be interesting if the fixed charge goes up as well

Max Power1

That means that someone can now be off the road for 4 speeding offenses....
Not good, when they still do nothing about lane hoggers

JustAddWater

Max Power1 wrote: »

That means that someone can now be off the road for 4 speeding offenses....
Not good, when they still do nothing about lane hoggers

to be fair, if you didn't get the message after the first 3 times....

Bits_n_Bobs

"Don't just stand there and do nothing - jack up the points Leo" said Varadkers PR adviser....

joujoujou

Max Power1 wrote: »

[...]
Not good, when they still do nothing about lane hoggers

It's easier to get money off speeding ones. :P

Easy revenue is the best revenue.

ba_barabus

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

"Don't just stand there and do nothing - jack up the points Leo" said Varadkers PR adviser....

Personally I reckon you could only do that once before the system becomes overly harsh

00833827

so is having no NCT coming down? will be 2 points, think its currently at 4 points?

discombobulate

I'd have thought a stepped points process would be a lot better. With the above it means if you get caught going 5km/h over the limit 4 times in 3 years you'll be off the road

djimi

Was only a matter of time really before speeding went up to three points.

R.O.R

Max Power1 wrote: »

That means that someone can now be off the road for 4 speeding offenses....
Not good, when they still do nothing about lane hoggers

Or learners....

Sobanek

Looks like the minister of transport is yet another uninformed yokel.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Speeding will now attract three points on payment of fixed charge and five on conviction (previously two and four).

This would make sense if fines and points for speeding were graduated.

At the moment 80 euros + 2 points (with limit of 12 per 3 years) for being f.e. 6km/h over the limit must be among the most expensive in EU.
80 euros and 2 points for being 50km/h over the limit must be one of the cheapest among the EU.

So something is wrong here.

djimi

discombobulate wrote: »

I'd have thought a stepped points process would be a lot better. With the above it means if you get caught going 5km/h over the limit 4 times in 3 years you'll be off the road

As someone said above, if you dont learn your lesson after the first three times then its hard to argue that you dont deserve it. Its just plain careless to get done multiple times being that close to the limit; if your intention is to drive at the limit then drive at the limit.

But I agree with you; a stepped penalty system for speeding would be a better solution.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

This would make sense if fines and points for speeding were graduated.

At the moment 80 euros + 2 points (with limit of 12 per 3 years) for being f.e. 6km/h over the limit must be among the most expensive in EU.
80 euros and 2 points for being 50km/h over the limit must be one of the cheapest among the EU.

So something is wrong here.

Do any countries actually use such a system, and if so how is it implemented?

inforfun

Yes, in Holland you have scales for speeding. A bit more expensive too over there. Is you speed with 50% or more over the limit > court date and bye bye license.
If you are lucky you and can convince the judge you really need your licens you might get away with a €1500 fine and probation.

Red light: €220
On the phone: €220
No NCT: €130
No insureance €550

Well, they are all here

1st column is how much you speed, 2nd is motorway, outside cities (N roads), 4th inside city.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Do any countries actually use such a system, and if so how is it implemented?

AFAIK most countries have graduated system, where fine and amount of penalty points depends of how much you were over the speed limit.

Only country I know which use straight system with fine just for speeding no matter how much is Ireland.


Implementation is no problem.

They tell you anyway what speed you were doing - even in Ireland - so fitting it within the set ranges of fines doesn't attract any difficulty.

piston

What is really needed is more Gardai to enforce the existing rules of the road properly.

With regards to the speeding thing, it depends on the context and road conditions etc, but breaking the speed limit isn't necessarily the most dangerous thing you can do. However, signs on the roadside tell you what speed you can do, the speedometer tells you roughly what speed you are doing, if you get caught breaking it, it's really your own fault.

Personally I would make the penalty for phone use and especially texting while driving much higher.

endacl

I don't see what the fuss is all about. Don't drive like a dick and you won't get points.

Caliden

Using a phone needs more points in my opinion.

No Pants

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Non-wearing of seatbelts will now attract three points on payment of fixed charge and five on conviction (previously two and four).

Why did this one need to increase? The only person you can hurt is yourself, or does this cover the passengers also?

The J Stands for Jay

€80 and two points for doing 42 km/h on the blanch exit of the m50 on a Sunday night

I'd have less of a problem if the limits weren't ridiculous
a 30 kph limit right before you're supposed to merge onto the m50, for example?!

mitosis

R.O.R wrote: »

Or learners....

Learners have a limit of six points, ergo they have effectively double the points penalty

HurtLocker

No Pants wrote: »

Why did this one need to increase? The only person you can hurt is yourself, or does this cover the passengers also?

Driver is responsible for passengers under 17 as well

No Pants

CiniO wrote: »

80 euros and 2 points for being 50km/h over the limit must be one of the cheapest among the EU.

Is there a limit above which it goes to court? If not, then I might as well just take the piss rather than even attempt to obey the limit.

HurtLocker

endacl wrote: »

I don't see what the fuss is all about. Don't drive like a dick and you won't get points.

No people who drive like dicks will continue to drive like dicks, tailgating and right hand lane hogging, cutting people off when entering from a slip road. They wont get any points. The only thing that will change is that the government can say they've done something. God forbid they repaint road markings and improve road conditions, that would cost money.:eek:

Corkbah

so speeding is still more dangerous than an unsafe vehicle or inexperienced driver ...well done Leo !!

a more conscious effort towards enforcement of the laws that are in effect instead of picking and choosing some which obviously are being ignored and highlight them.

why not put a garda on every junction and 1pt for every red light broken, or illegal turn, driving in a bus lane etc, there are hundreds/thousands of drivers in Dublin alone breaking these "rules" on a daily basis, but because its common practice its ignored.

put another 10,000 gardai on the streets to reduce crime, put some of the officers in the offices out on the beat....as regards rural areas.... fix the feckin roads and road signs before ...yes... BEFORE .... you try enforce the traffic laws....its not that difficult to build a straight road, there should be no hairpin turns in this country, no windy roads which have blind corners, there should be no junctions within 150m of a corner....its simple to do, just need to fork out the money and do it.

Anan1

Caliden wrote: »

Using a phone needs more points in my opinion.

AFAIK it's been shown that using a hands-free kit is almost as dangerous as holding a phone in your hand. Why increase the punishment for one while accepting the other?

No Pants

HurtLocker wrote: »

Driver is responsible for passengers under 17 as well

Fair enough.

challengemaster

And driving the wrong way down a motorway stays at 1 point...

Corkbah

Henry Ford III wrote: »

27/06/2013 - 12:06:26
Transport Minister Leo Varadkar ......
"There's no reliable system of testing on the roadside, in the way that you would with a breathalyser, for example," he said.

"What we are bringing in is evidential testing, so it's proper neurological testing, involving past-pointing and stepping and so on, and gardaí are trained to do that, and that can be then admissible as evidence in court, but ideally it will be backed up by a blood or urine sample as well."

so the minister says we cant actually properly test at the side of the road but what we can do is.... old school impairment testing - which we used to do BEFORE we spent money on breathalysers and other electronic gadgets'n'gizmo's.

evidential testing - where they build evidence against you - all circumstantial - and if you choose not to engage in these tests you are free to go but will be charged with failure to provide a sample for the gardai etc etc

I hate that this potentially has a loophole already !!

Corkbah

Anan1 wrote: »

AFAIK it's been shown that using a hands-free kit is almost as dangerous as holding a phone in your hand. Why increase the punishment for one while accepting the other?

(puts on conspiracy theory hat) because there are other vested interests at play
(keeps on his conspiracy theory hat ...its a nice fit)

No Pants

Anan1 wrote: »

AFAIK it's been shown that using a hands-free kit is almost as dangerous as holding a phone in your hand. Why increase the punishment for one while accepting the other?

Hands-free kits can be expensed by politicians?
(beaten to it by Corkbah)

Anan1

No Pants wrote: »

Hands-free kits can be expensed by politicians?

Still more expensive than not having one..

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

AFAIK it's been shown that using a hands-free kit is almost as dangerous as holding a phone in your hand. Why increase the punishment for one while accepting the other?

I really think them findings are nonsense to be honest, using a hands-free kit is no more distracting than chatting to a passenger imo. Its totally impractical to disallow phone usage totally also, people need to be able to use the phone while on the move.

I would also be impossible to enforce a ban on hands-free kits.

I think the idea was a passenger knows when to stop talking because they see you need to focus on something, hands free doesn't

CiniO

No Pants wrote: »

Why did this one need to increase? The only person you can hurt is yourself

Imagine you are driving, make a mistake and cause an accident.
It happens even to the best of us.
Other driver had seatbelts so he is allright. Only damage to cars. Your insurance pays up, you loose your NCB and all ends good.

Imagine though if other drive didn't have seatbelts and therefore was killed.

This changes things for you from causing a material damage accident only to causing a fatal accident.

BronsonTB

Would be nice to see every driver drive under the limit for a week where NO penalty points where issued for speeding....Maybe see then how the accident stats are...

But they don't WANT to over enforce because that would see them loose way too much revenue. They get a cut out of everything relating to having a vehicle legal on the road. Tax/Ins/NCT & everytime you have to buy a part for the upkeep of the vehicle.

They ideally only want to catch everyone once or twice every 2 years to ensure this extra revenue is maximised. If drivers loose their lic, they loose ALL the revenue above & they certainly do NOT want that.
No matter what safety benefit it brings.

Otherwise we would have gaurds/speed vans everywhere as the rules are broken in every part of the country,every single day of the year, every year.

BTW: I'm fully in favor of a fair & sensible approach but this government aren't. It's just about the money, any safety benefit is just an add on to keep the perception up to the public in general.

Iano_128

Blood test? They couldn't do that on the side of the road surely? And what would be the requirement to co-operate with them wanting to do it? Surely you can refuse to have your blood taken (not asking because I'm worried, don't have time for drugs but don't have a lot of time for needles either and do not want to be getting them poked in me because I'm young and drive a car, which Gards are constantly suspicious of anyway)

HurtLocker

The Germans have an upward speeding fine system.

http://www.aig.com/driving-in-germany_1369_288057.html

The only problem is Irish speeders tend to go only 10 kph over the limit from my experience.(100kmh=110kmh, 50kmh=60kmh etc.) The government would lose too much money.

Motorist should be one of the strongest lobby groups. We are literally squeezed for every cent.:mad: Maybe if every boards member emailed Varadkar, oh wait this is a democracy nothing would happen.

Anan1

Elle Chubby Switch wrote: »

I really think them findings are nonsense to be honest, using a hands-free kit is no more distracting than chatting to a passenger imo.

How do you explain the studies showing the opposite to be the case?

Elle Chubby Switch wrote: »

Its totally impractical to disallow phone usage totally also, people need to be able to use the phone while on the move.

Why?

Elle Chubby Switch wrote: »

I would also be impossible to enforce a ban on hands-free kits.

A ban on hands free kits would be very easy to enforce. The kit's not going to disappear when a Garda stops the car.

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

A ban on hands free kits would be very easy to enforce. The kit's not going to disappear when a Garda stops the car.

But they're useful for gps guidance

Anan1

bluewolf wrote: »

But they're useful for gps guidance

I'm not suggesting banning them.

gurramok

McGaggs wrote: »

€80 and two points for doing 42 km/h on the blanch exit of the m50 on a Sunday night

Thats mad, which part? Whats the limit on it? Was it a hairdryer gun or an unmarked car following you?

Anan1

Anan1 wrote: »

How do you explain the studies showing the opposite to be the case?

I question a lot of the these studies carried out to be honest, I think they find the answers people want to hear. I have seen a few tests online where they put a person on a hand held phone through a series of tests while on the phone and frankly it was nonsense, they made it look like the person was totally incapable of driving which just isn't true.

Anan1 wrote: »

Why?

People need to be able to use the phone while driving, be it for business or pleasure. It's nanny state stuff putting a total ban on them and I'd wager the large increase in people suddenly pulling in to answer the phone would case more crashes than any ban would solve.

Anan1 wrote: »

A ban on hands free kits would be very easy to enforce. The kit's not going to disappear when a Garda stops the car.

Well I meant a ban on their use as a ban on actually having them would definitely never happen. Also plenty of kits are hidden or are part of the radio now. Catching someone for talking on a hands-free kit would be next to impossible.

No Pants

CiniO wrote: »

Imagine though if other drive didn't have seatbelts and therefore was killed.

I'm not taking responsibility for a decision that someone else makes. I'm talking about me or any other driver not putting on his or her own seatbelt.

My question has already been answered; it's more about the other occupants of the car.

The J Stands for Jay

gurramok wrote: »

Thats mad, which part? Whats the limit on it? Was it a hairdryer gun or an unmarked car following you?

The limit had just gone to 30, from 60, and just after the sign was an unmarked van, dangerously parked half on the road on the turn on the northbound ramp for blanch. It's the part where the 30 limit lasts for maybe 100 or 200 yards.

tin79

gurramok wrote: »

Thats mad, which part? Whats the limit on it? Was it a hairdryer gun or an unmarked car following you?

There is briefly a 30 km limit there as you loop round onto the N3.

Nobody obeys it.

Mad spot to be caught alright. Must have been an unmarked car? There is no room there to park a car safely as there is no hard shoulder. Or even stand safely really.

Edit: sorry posted before I saw your reply.

tin79

McGaggs wrote: »

The limit had just gone to 30, from 60, and just after the sign was an unmarked van, dangerously parked half on the road on the turn on the northbound ramp for blanch. It's the part where the 30 limit lasts for maybe 100 or 200 yards.

That's a ridiculous spot to put a van. Road is hardly wide enough for one car there.

piston

Elle Chubby Switch wrote: »

People need to be able to use the phone while driving, be it for business or pleasure. It's nanny state stuff putting a total ban on them and I'd wager the large increase in people suddenly pulling in to answer the phone would case more crashes than any ban would solve.

Utter nonsense. Not very long ago, nobody had a mobile phone and we all managed perfectly well.

If people are incapable of pulling of the road safely to answer a phone call, then they are unsafe drivers anyway and shouldn't be allowed on the road in the first place.