Gooch warning

harpsman

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/fans-will-vote-with-feet-if-skills-get-the-boot-gooch-29376275.html

See Gooch givin out about "the modern game", sayin fans will stay away.
The evidence doesnt appear to back up his statement
On a point of detail Donegal have played in front of 2 sell out crowds,on miserable days to boot.
What kinda crowds have Kerry been getting for their games?

Sour grapes??

Personally I'd agree with this: http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/eamonn-sweeney-time-to-put-a-sock-in-it-pat-29365782.html

InchicoreDude

Benny Coulter was also saying this week that he doesnt like the modern game.

iDave

All the negativity is getting tiresome

Radio5

harpsman wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/fans-will-vote-with-feet-if-skills-get-the-boot-gooch-29376275.html

See Gooch givin out about "the modern game", sayin fans will stay away.
The evidence doesnt appear to back up his statement
On a point of detail Donegal have played in front of 2 sell out crowds,on miserable days to boot.
What kinda crowds have Kerry been getting for their games?

Sour grapes??

Personally I'd agree with this: http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/eamonn-sweeney-time-to-put-a-sock-in-it-pat-29365782.html

The man has played Gaelic Football at the highest level for the past 10 years. And won a few things along the way. I'd say he's entitled to his opinion.

Jeju

If your team is successful playing non attractive football you will get the crowds whereas if you don't win anything playing whatever type of football then your numbers will fall.
Let them at it if its within the rules and they are winning then its up to some either team to beat them.

doz

The reality is that teams who have a chance of success will always retain a following regardless of how they play so to point to big crowds attending Dublin or Donegal games is pointless. If you look at crowds attending games involving lesser counties they are falling year on year, as is the neutral support, and that is the real indication of the direction the game is headed. Not many neutrals want to watch the negative garbage that is being served up by most teams at the moment, a game which is conspicuous by its lack of basic footballing skills. Bar a couple of the top teams the general level of kicking is atrocious and until something is done about the fisted pass that will likely continue.

The way the Hurling Championship is going this year and the level of excitement it is generating should be an eye opener for the purveyors of the big ball and I hope this will be reflected in attendances and TV figures at the end of the season. There is only one game the neutral wants to watch at the moment and it doesn't begin with f.

Poor_old_gill

harpsman wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/fans-will-vote-with-feet-if-skills-get-the-boot-gooch-29376275.html

See Gooch givin out about "the modern game", sayin fans will stay away.
The evidence doesnt appear to back up his statement
On a point of detail Donegal have played in front of 2 sell out crowds,on miserable days to boot.
What kinda crowds have Kerry been getting for their games?

Sour grapes??

Personally I'd agree with this: http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/eamonn-sweeney-time-to-put-a-sock-in-it-pat-29365782.html [/QUOTE]

A couple of things here:

1) I agree with the sentiment of Sweeney's article
2) If a second rate journalist such as Sweeney knows the gig is up for you then it is well and truly up
3) As a Kerryman who thinks Pat is a god- it is kind of embarrassing to see him on the Sunday game every week beating the same old drum- as I often say about Kerry football, you either adapt or get left behind and he has very much been left behind.

Could anyone inform me of Sweeney's reaction to Eamon O Hara's tirade against Kevin Walsh?

theoneeyedman

The fact that items like the connacht council think it's ok to charge 20 and 25 euro admittance to their recent games has a bigger influence on neutral numbers.

It's a point though....with all the dictats on health and safety etc in recent years the biggest failing of the gaa had IMO failing to keep pace with changes in coaching and tactical systems in the game. There have been no significant rule changes in years. Next year with the black card etc is an attempt to curb cynicism so we'll have to wait and see.

premierstone

From a completely neutral and predominantly hurling background I would have to agree with both Gooch and Sweeney tbh, Gooch if anyone reads the full article is not critical iof the teams for doing what they are doing and infact praises them for how they have gone about it, he also admits that Kerry need to adapt if they are to keep pace. But he says the game is indanger of excluding skillfull players at the expense of well built athletes and off course he is 100% correct - but what is the solution? The modern game of Gaelic Football could in no way be described by anyone as entertaining, especially from a neutrals perspective.

Sweeney is also correct of course and it is quite obvious that Spillane no longer likes or enjoys the game so why he is still being paid to analyse the thing is quite bizzare.

shockframe

premierstone wrote: »

The modern game of Gaelic Football could in no way be described by anyone as entertaining, especially from a neutrals perspective.

That is not fully accurate.The last decade has IMO actually been the games glory years.There is about 30 to 40 really good matches in this timeframe. The likes of pat spillane likes to go back to the brilliance of his day but his day was only brilliant for kerry. Not so good for everyone else.

Kerry got a bye into the munster final sometimes.Connacht was badly hit with emigration and the ulster counties had constant danger with the troubles which made it hard to play football back then.spillane would do well to remember all of this when comparing things to now.

Not only that but his slating of fermanagh/cavan was all too predictable.cavan has been in the doldrums for a long time and making improvements, fermanagh has a population of around 60,000 which includes a 50% protestant community so in effect that makes the potential population of around 30,000 one of the 3 smallest in the game.No team should be above criticism but there is factors at play too.

If the game has changed it is down to tactical awareness and the application of sports science.

Yes the championship hasnt been great so far but not every team can be brilliant all at once.same as in any sport.you will always get sports with bad games.gaelic football is no exception.

I could also point to 3 outstanding football games back in March over 5 days.Cork v Kerry in under 21, Dublin v Tyrone in the league, St Brigids v Ballymun on st patricks day.Their is plenty of good (and some bad too) matches all over the grades (minor,senior,schools,under 21,sigerson).To me Gaelic Football is a superb game.

as for the gooch interesting that he should say this the week before the munster final.protecting skillful players my a'''.Bernard Brogan,Peter Canavan,Stephen O'Neill,Johhny Doyle, Michael Murphy are all skillful and strong and have done just fine for themselves.That they have to work hard for scores is the way of the game Gooch.

premierstone

shockframe wrote: »

That is not fully accurate.The last decade has IMO actually been the games glory years.There is about 30 to 40 really good matches in this timeframe. The likes of pat spillane likes to go back to the brilliance of his day but his day was only brilliant for kerry. Not so good for everyone else.

Kerry got a bye into the munster final sometimes.Connacht was badly hit with emigration and the ulster counties had constant danger with the troubles which made it hard to play football back then.spillane would do well to remember all of this when comparing things to now.

Not only that but his slating of fermanagh/cavan was all too predictable.cavan has been in the doldrums for a long time and making improvements, fermanagh has a population of around 60,000 which includes a 50% protestant community so in effect that makes the potential population of around 30,000 one of the 3 smallest in the game.No team should be above criticism but there is factors at play too.

If the game has changed it is down to tactical awareness and the application of sports science.

Yes the championship hasnt been great so far but not every team can be brilliant all at once.same as in any sport.you will always get sports with bad games.gaelic football is no exception.

I could also point to 3 outstanding football games back in March over 5 days.Cork v Kerry in under 21, Dublin v Tyrone in the league, St Brigids v Ballymun on st patricks day.

as for the gooch interesting that he should say this the week before the munster final.protecting skillful players my a'''.Bernard Brogan,Peter Canavan,Stephen O'Neill,Johhny Doyle, Michael Murphy are all skillful and strong and have done just fine for themselves.That they have to work hard for scores is the way of the game Gooch.

I respectfully disagree and I think you are confusing competitiveness with quaility and entertainment, the last great game of football I seen was Galway and Kerry in near monsoon conditions, some people may prefer the current brawn over brain type game but its not for me, Im with Gooch on this one tbh. Minor,U21 and club football are also presently much more enjoyable to watch than intercounty Senior fare as the players are allowed express themselves and there isn't the same negativity and over emphasis on creating Gym robots.

shockframe

premierstone wrote: »

I respectfully disagree and I think you are confusing competitiveness with quaility and entertainment, the last great game of football I seen was Galway and Kerry in near monsoon conditions, some people may prefer the current brawn over brain type game but its not for me, Im with Gooch on this one tbh. Minor,U21 and club football are also presently much more enjoyable to watch than intercounty Senior fare as the players are allowed express themselves and there isn't the same negativity and over emphasis on creating Gym robots.

You must have missed a lot of the 2009,2010 and a bit of the 2012 season so.You werent watching Down and Derry 4 weeks ago either so i take it.

There is brawn and brains not just brawn over brains.Thats not just in gaelic.Did Porto win the champions league because just on skill alone.No they did it through hard work,tactical awareness and taking your chances when they came their way.The same goes for Greece in Euro 2004, Chelsea in the EPL 2005-06,Liverpool in CL 2005,Inter Milan in 2010.It didnt stop me enjoying or put me off soccer in any way.

In the last decade we had great scores like mulligans goal in 2005, stephen o neill kicking some great points off both feet.mattie forde doing likewise,colin corkery.kieran mcdonalds wonder point in the 06 semi final.some great colm cooper goals.Michael Murphys finish in the 2012 final.2 savage points by brogan in the 2011 final.not to mention the likes of padraic joyce and michael meehan.

This is before we see new players come to the fore.The minor championship is very competitive with lots of good work going on in several counties.

If you disagree with me thats fine.your entitled to your opinion but if a previous era of football has had as many good players as now I would like to see it.although I would stick up for teams like down in the early 1990s,larry tompkins, Sean og De Paor etc.

Their is also a back door in place at senior level now so teams will not go all out to win like they used to.Its different in the All Ireland stages.

Hurling now has a defensive mindset also.Kilkenny are very good at zonal marking as well as attacking.Doesnt make their games less enjoyable.up to others to beat it.Hurling has had a good season so far and with more tactics as well as skill it should get better again over the next few years

Syferus

The 'hurling is better than football, no football is better than hurling' crap doesn't have to invade every single thread, does it?

More tiresome than a 14-man defence, or Kilkenny winning another AI.

shockframe

Syferus wrote: »

The 'hurling is better than football, no football is better than hurling' crap doesn't have to invade every single thread, does it?

More tiresome than a 14-man defence.

Im not saying football is better than hurling at all.Im just trying to point out that Football is not as bad as some try and make it out to be.

harpsman

There are plenty of small skilful players around at the moment-last week Downs best attacking players were Poland,Laverty and OHare-probably the 3 lightest men on the field

Volvic12

The way Football is going was summed up for me last year when a Cork selector stated that they tend to only look at players 6ft or over. Bit of a joke to be honest. Zero motivation for any small youngster in Cork to play football
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=166487
"Basically we think a big, good fella is better than a small, good fella. That is the tendency in Cork - to go for quite big players."

Skilfull players are a dying breed. Likes of Declan Browne (Tipp),Jason Sherlock would struggle to get picked in modern game because of there height which is wrong in my opinion.

Football has now turned in to a game for Athletes where skill is not a prerequisite but can help.

68Murph68

If you took a full-time professional rugby league player who had never touched an O'Neills number 5 or even seen a game of Gaelic football and gave him a month to learn the rules and to have some time practising how to hand-pass and pickup some notion of how to tackle, how many inter-county football teams would he make at the end of that month?

Basically the game at present does close to nothing to protect the skillful player.

I'd be very interested to see what a game where you had rules close to basketball in terms of tackling would look as a spectacle.

premierstone

Syferus wrote: »

The 'hurling is better than football, no football is better than hurling' crap doesn't have to invade every single thread, does it?

More tiresome than a 14-man defence, or Kilkenny winning another AI.

Nobody mentioned anything of the sort untill you, so I guess if you were going for ironic post of the day, you sir are a winner!

lukin

This is just more Kerry cuteness.Cooper is trying a bit of psychology on the ref, trying to get inside his head before the game so he can get a few soft frees.
In any case Colm is well able to look after himself as we saw last year:
http://www.sportsfile.com/id/532012/

DoctaDee

68Murph68 wrote: »

If you took a full-time professional rugby league player who had never touched an O'Neills number 5 or even seen a game of Gaelic football and gave him a month to learn the rules and to have some time practising how to hand-pass and pickup some notion of how to tackle, how many inter-county football teams would he make at the end of that month?

Basically the game at present does close to nothing to protect the skillful player.

I'd be very interested to see what a game where you had rules close to basketball in terms of tackling would look as a spectacle.

This is way over-simplyfying the matter personally speaking - there's another 50 odd players who train every bit as hard, gym monkey it every bit as often as those guys on the county panel of 26 but their football skills wouldn't be deemed proficient enought for inclusion. The nature of the game is to have better athletes these days but that's not to the exclusion of football skills.

harpsman

Volvic12 wrote: »

The way Football is going was summed up for me last year when a Cork selector stated that they tend to only look at players 6ft or over. Bit of a joke to be honest. Zero motivation for any small youngster in Cork to play football
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=166487
"Basically we think a big, good fella is better than a small, good fella. That is the tendency in Cork - to go for quite big players."

Skilfull players are a dying breed. Likes of Declan Browne (Tipp),Jason Sherlock would struggle to get picked in modern game because of there height which is wrong in my opinion.

Football has now turned in to a game for Athletes where skill is not a prerequisite but can help.

Have you ever actually watched a game?

premierstone

lukin wrote: »

This is just more Kerry cuteness.Cooper is trying a bit of psychology on the ref, trying to get inside his head before the game so he can get a few soft frees.
In any case Colm is well able to look after himself as we saw last year:
http://www.sportsfile.com/id/532012/

Paranoia is an awfull affliction :rolleyes:

That picture shows absolutely nothing tbh and if thats the some total of your evidence after over 50 championship games, where he is targeted in every single one of them, its a pretty weak feckin case.

lukin

premierstone wrote: »

Paranoia is an awfull affliction :rolleyes:

That picture shows absolutely nothing tbh and if thats the some total of your evidence after over 50 championship games, where he is targeted in every single one of them, its a pretty weak feckin case.

Nah, he's only holding yer man down on the ground by his knee and hand and the linesman looking straight at him.:rolleyes: I was at the game in question and O'Sullivan required lengthy treatment after it.

harpsman

68Murph68 wrote: »

If you took a full-time professional rugby league player who had never touched an O'Neills number 5 or even seen a game of Gaelic football and gave him a month to learn the rules and to have some time practising how to hand-pass and pickup some notion of how to tackle, how many inter-county football teams would he make at the end of that month?

Basically the game at present does close to nothing to protect the skillful player.

I'd be very interested to see what a game where you had rules close to basketball in terms of tackling would look as a spectacle.

When was it ever different?
Look at a match from 30 years ago sometime-sure there was plenty of kicking of the ball alright-usually straight to an opposition player!

Ash.J.Williams

harpsman wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/fans-will-vote-with-feet-if-skills-get-the-boot-gooch-29376275.html

See Gooch givin out about "the modern game", sayin fans will stay away.
The evidence doesnt appear to back up his statement
On a point of detail Donegal have played in front of 2 sell out crowds,on miserable days to boot.
What kinda crowds have Kerry been getting for their games?

Sour grapes??

Personally I'd agree with this: http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/eamonn-sweeney-time-to-put-a-sock-in-it-pat-29365782.html

of course donegal are drawing crowds...they were f**ing football backwater who just won an allireland, wicklow would draw the same crowds if they did the same.

premierstone

lukin wrote: »

Nah, he's only holding yer man down on the ground by his knee and hand and the linesman looking straight at him.:rolleyes: I was at the game in question and O'Sullivan required lengthy treatment after it.

A still photo is absolutely meaningless without the before and after shots.

lukin

Don't want to turn this into point-scoring but I think Colm should look at some of his own team-mates. Kerry are not exactly a team of hobbits are they?
Donaghy, Galvin, Declan O Sullivan are all big physical men who are well able to stand up to physical challenges.
A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

premierstone

lukin wrote: »

Don't want to turn this into point-scoring but I think Colm should look at some of his own team-mates. Kerry are not exactly a team of hobbits are they?
Donaghy, Galvin, Declan O Sullivan are all big physical men who are well able to stand up to physical challenges.
A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

Have you actually read the quotes from Gooch or are you just having pot shots he does nothing of the sort and praises other teams for the way they have evolved to the current football, he is just raising a concern that the current game is in danger of isolating the more skillfull light players and making then redundant.

He is 100% right, but as he says himself there is no easy fix to it and teams like Kerry must adapt and move with the times, and Im sure they will. My view is that this shift in approach and tactics is far less enjoyable to watch. Galway are a good example of a team that never evolved and look where it has gotten them.

keane2097

lukin wrote: »

Don't want to turn this into point-scoring but I think Colm should look at some of his own team-mates. Kerry are not exactly a team of hobbits are they?
Donaghy, Galvin, Declan O Sullivan are all big physical men who are well able to stand up to physical challenges.
A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

What are you on about?

intellectual dosser

I think a lot of the Donegal players would fall into the 5ft 10inches category. There are some slight looking players, mind you I'm aware they are hardy as hell. In my opinion the smaller players are more effective at the 'swarming' tactic employed by many teams nowadays, there will always be room for players of all builds IMO.

wadacrack

Gaelic football nearly now reminds me of Rugby.The big hits, work rate and intesity are more important than skill. "My worry is, an 18 or 19 year-old now, who is 5ft 10ins, carrying no weight – he might be the most skilful guy in the county and the best player in the county championship, but will he be picked by the county team? I'd have my doubts" Very true. Gaelic football is terrible to watch at present

Dirty Dingus McGee

doz wrote: »

The reality is that teams who have a chance of success will always retain a following regardless of how they play so to point to big crowds attending Dublin or Donegal games is pointless. If you look at crowds attending games involving lesser counties they are falling year on year, as is the neutral support, and that is the real indication of the direction the game is headed. Not many neutrals want to watch the negative garbage that is being served up by most teams at the moment, a game which is conspicuous by its lack of basic footballing skills. Bar a couple of the top teams the general level of kicking is atrocious and until something is done about the fisted pass that will likely continue.

The way the Hurling Championship is going this year and the level of excitement it is generating should be an eye opener for the purveyors of the big ball and I hope this will be reflected in attendances and TV figures at the end of the season. There is only one game the neutral wants to watch at the moment and it doesn't begin with f.

If the level of kicking is poor now and players lack basic football skills then players in the past must have been absolutely useless.Regardless of what the media say players are far more skillful today than they ever were. Defences are tighter and yet scoring averages have remained the same , that indicates a higher quality in forward play than in the past.I would trust a defender with a shot at the goals a lot more today than a defender 15 years ago.

Dirty Dingus McGee

premierstone wrote: »

I respectfully disagree and I think you are confusing competitiveness with quaility and entertainment, the last great game of football I seen was Galway and Kerry in near monsoon conditions, some people may prefer the current brawn over brain type game but its not for me, Im with Gooch on this one tbh. Minor,U21 and club football are also presently much more enjoyable to watch than intercounty Senior fare as the players are allowed express themselves and there isn't the same negativity and over emphasis on creating Gym robots.

Galway v Kerry was a very overrated game,.Sure the skills were nice but there was zero intensity and Kerry were in reality only toying with Galway when Galway took the lead in the second half Kerry casually upped their performance and came home with 5 points to spare.A nice game of football but not a great game due to the lack of intensity. It was an exhibition match played in the championship.

The 2008 all ireland final is probably the best game of the last 10 years also the 2005 final is just behind and Mayo v Dublin in 2006 was a great game aswell. Just off the top of my head I would also consider the following games to have been much better than Galway v Kerry in 2008. Kildare v Down in 2010,Dublin v Cork semi in 2010.The 2011 All Ireland Final, Donegal v Cork and Kerry last year , Mayo v Dublin last year.I could find many more games that were superior to the Kerry Galway match in 2008.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

of course donegal are drawing crowds...they were f**ing football backwater who just won an allireland, wicklow would draw the same crowds if they did the same.

Donegal are not a footballing backwater.They have been in the top 2 divisions in the league for the last 15 years or more.Oftentimes The way some people go on about Donegal transformation you'd think Jim McGuiness was handed a group of players who' never seen a football before.I gets completely forgotten that Donegal have 7 or 8 genuinely top class footballers

doz

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

If the level of kicking is poor now ans players lack basic football skills then players in the past must have been absolutely useeless.Regardless of what the media say players are far more skillful today than they ever were.Defences are tighter and yet scoring averages have remained the same , that indicates a higher quality in forward play than in the past.

If players are more skillful now than they were before then the majority of them are doing their best to hide these skills based on what I and the majority of the country appear to have been watching for the last number of years!! There is a general lack of kicking due to the preference for the negative handpassing and that is the single saddest thing about the way the game has gone. The amount of easy scores being missed by some teams is unforgiveable and if they spent more time practicing kicking than negative and cynical fouling than they would have a better chance of winning games.

The stats about average scoring is attributable to the number of frees being given due to same cynical fouling. A more accurate statistic in this regard would be the amount of scores from play and I bet any money that has dropped significantly.

Fr Tod Umptious

What Gooch is saying is something that you will see and hear every day in the Kerry media and around the county too.

There seems to be a siege mentality in Kerry when it comes to the evolution of the modern game, there seems to be a feeling that the current game is not being played in the correct spirit. You cannot open the Kerryman without seeing another column from Sean Counihan "the man who tackles the big issues head on" bemoaning the hand pass, or the blanket defence etc, and suggesting that Croke Park legislate for it.

He and his like often harp back to Tyrone in 2003 or Donegal v Dublin in 2011 as prime examples of how the game has gone to hell in a handbasket, but what they fail to mention that Tyrone in 2005 and 2008 were far more expansive than in 2003, or that Donegal scored 8-98 in seven games to win the All Ireland in 2012, Kerry in their seven 'winning' games in 2009 only managed 6-86.
Spillane often goes on about how teams are setup to try and primarily prevent the opposition from scoring, rather than scoring themselves, but Donegal's tally in 2012 makes a mockery of that.

Fair enough the Down v Donegal and Fermanagh v Monaghan games were poor, but three of those teams are not going to win All Irelands, as Donegal have figured you cannot win anything on defence alone.

The real reason Kerry are so against this modern game is they realise that they are way behind the rest when it comes to player development, strength and conditioning etc, and their underage failures show this. Gone are the days when skill alone will get you winning All Irelands.

And I agree that the Kerry v Galway game is over rated, it totally lacked intensity, had it been played on a good day it would no longer be talked about, it would have been just any other quarter final.

harpsman

Some good points there Todd

premierstone

premierstone wrote: »

I respectfully disagree and I think you are confusing competitiveness with quaility and entertainment, the last great game of football I seen was Galway and Kerry in near monsoon conditions, some people may prefer the current brawn over brain type game but its not for me, Im with Gooch on this one tbh. Minor,U21 and club football are also presently much more enjoyable to watch than intercounty Senior fare as the players are allowed express themselves and there isn't the same negativity and over emphasis on creating Gym robots.

Agree.

It was also the last game I enjoyed but I was coming from a side involved so not exactly impartial.
Couldn't say the same for hurling, would probably have seen at least one game this year alone to match it for entertainment.

Football could be enjoyable again.
I started watching Aussie Rules about 3 years ago and I have to say even in a bad game(i.e a hammering) you will still see lovely passages of play and great kicking from lads who earned the kick(i.e frees go to the man fouled, marks obviously the same... can't win free's like GAA and send the FF over to kick it).

Pierce Hanley(Mayo) and the Brisbane Lions played an absolute belter(they came back from 52 points down which is the 8th biggest come back against the 2nd placed team while they sit near the bottom.... aka fairytale) the same day we had to witness the snooze fest that was Donegal and Down.
Watch that final two minutes to get a glimpse at what we could get with more emphasis on skill and kicking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLIbEaQ2fOE

I think killing the handpass is the easiest way to see a return to a free flowing game.
There wouldnt be any point having 14 lads in defence if ye had to kick your way out and as an attacking team it wouldn't make any sense to have players bunched up.
Would also make the tackling easier to officiate since the end kick could be pressured without having to beat the body off a lad in the hope the ref lets it go.
We could kill two birds with one stone, we could leave the confusing issue of the tackle as it stands and see more kicking and space use.

jive

gilberto_eire wrote: »

I think killing the handpass is the easiest way to see a return to a free flowing game.
There wouldnt be any point having 14 lads in defence if ye had to kick your way out and as an attacking team it wouldn't make any sense to have players bunched up.
Would also make the tackling easier to officiate since the end kick could be pressured without having to beat the body off a lad in the hope the ref lets it go.
We could kill two birds with one stone, we could leave the confusing issue of the tackle as it stands and see more kicking and space use.

Why does the game have to be free flowing? I don't understand why people can't enjoy the tactical aspects of the game. I can see why someone without much interest would prefer hurling to football in 90% of cases and why not just let them enjoy the hurling then? Why change the rules of football to cater for people who aren't really interested in it in the first place? People who enjoy the game for what it is and how it evolves will still be interested in it and will still play it. I find watching teams setup in an effort to overcome the blanket defence really interesting and I don't think restricting handpassing to some arbitrary number forcing players to kick the ball in a situation that doesn't require it.

If anything the blanket defence has just put more of an emphasis on distance shooting which is one of the most difficult skills in the game. Boohoo, there isn't acres of space inside the 45 anymore and teams put an emphasis on keeping the football. There's certainly no shortage of skillful players irrespective of the fact that they are carrying more weight, they don't even need extra weight just look at what Martin Dunne has been doing recently. I don't see anyone complaining about Walter Walsh from Kilkenny being an absolute giant.

People should embrace the changes and enjoy the game for what it is. The blanket defence will soon be outgunned by something else at which point people will complain about what that something else is.

Dirty Dingus McGee

doz wrote: »

If players are more skillful now than they were before then the majority of them are doing their best to hide these skills based on what I and the majority of the country appear to have been watching for the last number of years!! There is a general lack of kicking due to the preference for the negative handpassing and that is the single saddest thing about the way the game has gone. The amount of easy scores being missed by some teams is unforgiveable and if they spent more time practicing kicking than negative and cynical fouling than they would have a better chance of winning games.

The stats about average scoring is attributable to the number of frees being given due to same cynical fouling. A more accurate statistic in this regard would be the amount of scores from play and I bet any money that has dropped significantly.

that type of football doesnt work any more.If one team plays a possession based game it means they will not concede possession if the other team plays a long ball game they will invariably concede possession more often.The team who plays the possession based game will then dominate possession and have a lot more scoring chances.People need to realise that the type of football played in the past does not work anymore, look at what happened to Armagh against Cavan. Last week Down tried to kick the ball into their full forward line against Donegal 4 or 5 times in the first half and Donegal dealt with it easily because they were so well organised in defence.

Easy scores have always been missed its just that people are always gong to remember the good games from the past much more than the bad games, Players are under a lot more pressure when they take shots at goals these days compared to the past which also tends to be forgotten

Lemlin

Volvic12 wrote: »

The way Football is going was summed up for me last year when a Cork selector stated that they tend to only look at players 6ft or over. Bit of a joke to be honest. Zero motivation for any small youngster in Cork to play football
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=166487
"Basically we think a big, good fella is better than a small, good fella. That is the tendency in Cork - to go for quite big players."

Skilfull players are a dying breed. Likes of Declan Browne (Tipp),Jason Sherlock would struggle to get picked in modern game because of there height which is wrong in my opinion.

Football has now turned in to a game for Athletes where skill is not a prerequisite but can help.

Have you watched Cavan this year?

Martin Dunne is the second top scorer in the championship. I think it was Colm O'Rourke who commented that he is wearing 14 and looks 14!

Cian Mackey would struggle to be 5 foot 8 and scored a goal in one game and was man of the march in the other.

Jason McLoughlin and Killian Clarke, the two corner backs that people were commenting on in the championship thread as being great players, are both tall alright but resemble rakes!

This crap about the smaller players getting ignored is a load of tosh. If it's a policy Cork are following then good luck to them, they've a huge selection available and are one county out of 32.

I think people are getting too drawn into idiots like Spillane complaining. Spillane's only problem is that his precious Kerry can't beat this system. He had the same problem with Tyrone over the last decade.

Don't forget the term "puke football" originated on a day Kerry received a right beating!

jive

Lemlin wrote: »

This crap about the smaller players getting ignored is a load of tosh. If it's a policy Cork are following then good luck to them, they've a huge selection available and are one county out of 32.

Doesn't even look like they are following that policy at all and I doubt any county would adopt such a crazy policy. They won't disregard a player based on his height, sure it might be easier to get into the setup if you're a gargantuan but if you're good enough you'll still be involved. Clancy, O'Driscoll, McLoughlin, Hurley, Shorten, O'Rourke are all probably under 6 foot and the majority of those are young players

Smartly Dressed

The adulation of the small corner forward with slicked hair and quick feet continues in gaelic football. If the GAA were to succumb to the pressure of old-school football heads, they would probably end up introducing a rule which dictates that forwards can't be touched within the opposition's 45.

Basic skills are as good as they've ever been, possibly even better. The standard of coaching is always improving. However, basic skills are much harder to execute, because defences are no longer set up as a flat back 6 who go man-to-man (which was the dumbest thing possibly in the history of sport). People have grown up watching football and have been conditioned to appreciate nothing but the rifled pass into the nippy little forward who held basically every advantage over the defender.

Coaches are beginning to overcome this and forwards no longer face ''defenders'' but complete footballers. It's not 1v1 anymore in 15 seperate parts of the field, it's 15 footballers against 15 footballers.

The game needs to be reviewed in some areas, particularly with regard to cynical fouling and play being held up. It's not the scientific nature of coaching that is ruining the modern game, it's major issues like body checking which makes it impossible for attackers to carry momentum and continue forward after they've released the pass.

As long as the GAA stays on point, 10-15 years from now, Gaelic football will be at its absolute pinnacle because of the tactical and scientific advances that are being introduced at this minute. This will be reflected in both the playing and coaching personnel. I think the future of football is bright.

Lemlin

Smartly Dressed wrote: »

The adulation of the small corner forward with slicked hair and quick feet continues in gaelic football. If the GAA were to succumb to the pressure of old-school football heads, they would probably end up introducing a rule which dictates that forwards can't be touched within the opposition's 45.

Basic skills are as good as they've ever been, possibly even better. The standard of coaching is always improving. However, basic skills are much harder to execute, because defences are no longer set up as a flat back 6 who go man-to-man (which was the dumbest thing possibly in the history of sport). People have grown up watching football and have been conditioned to appreciate nothing but the rifled pass into the nippy little forward who held basically every advantage over the defender.

Coaches are beginning to overcome this and forwards no longer face ''defenders'' but complete footballers. It's not 1v1 anymore in 15 seperate parts of the field, it's 15 footballers against 15 footballers.

The game needs to be reviewed in some areas, particularly with regard to cynical fouling and play being held up. It's not the scientific nature of coaching that is ruining the modern game, it's major issues like body checking which makes it impossible for attackers to carry momentum and continue forward after they've released the pass.

As long as the GAA stays on point, 10-15 years from now, Gaelic football will be at its absolute pinnacle because of the tactical and scientific advances that are being introduced at this minute. This will be reflected in both the playing and coaching personnel. I think the future of football is bright.

Well said. Cavan are one of the counties having success with the Donegal style template. Watch them tomorrow night.

The six backs are all accomplished footballers. At several points during the game against Fermanagh, the full backs and both corners back broke up the field at pace.

As a unit, they have a space to cover and they tend to rotate where they cover within that area. Any of them is ready to break forward at any time because they know the others in the unit will plug the gap left quickly.

That's why you're left with Rory Dunne, the full back, breaking up to the opposition 45 at times.

K-9

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

of course donegal are drawing crowds...they were f**ing football backwater who just won an allireland, wicklow would draw the same crowds if they did the same.

Donegal and Armagh sold out Croke Park in 2003 I think and brought big crowds to Ulster Finals there too.

As for more skillful players, you've more mobile players now, blanket defence is one thing but if you don't have attacking Half Backs and corner backs plus midfielders who can score, you aren't going to get very far. There are aspects of the game that need addressing like a mark from a kick out, but most are minor enough changes that if the will is there, should be easy enough to implement.

The game has always evolved and adapted, the hand pass game in the 70's so effectively deployed by Kerry was considered a blight on the game. I remember Donegal in 92 getting criticised for the amount of hand passing as well.

Tom Joad

This argument has been made since the game started and will continue to keep going for the next 100 years - the big difference now is that with the huge increase in attention and coverage the game gets plus with social media everybody gets to have their say.

Anyone who looks at the history of the game will see that the same thing was being said in the 40's and 50's when the critics bemoaned the end of the defend your own area part of the game and again when the Kerry team of the 70s perfected the handpassing game it was said that they destroyed the football element of the game. So now a new type of game has come along and the same thing is said. But like before its just a matter of teams adapting to the way the game is being played. The big difference now is that because it is Ulster teams leading the introduction of the new games it scoffed and by Spillane and his ilk.

We all like to look back with rose tinted glasses at the game of the past but let's face it some of it was awful shíte and whatever you say about the modern game at least it is giving some of the lesser counties a chance to compete.

davegrohl48

I think it is impossible to prevent the game moving towards having larger athletes. Somone 6'2" and 14 stone is naturally predisposed towards Gaelic Football, that was also the case 30 years ago.
I think the kicking skills currently in the game are vastly under appreciated by the media, fans and pundits. Players are kicking now with better technique, balance and have better fitness levels to maintain concentration to execute skills.
I was at Mayo - Roscommon and I am looking forward to seeing Mayo meeting a top team to see the battle of tactics.
If anyone noticed in the second half Kevin McGloughlin caught a kickout by sprinting at full speed from the stand side of McHale park to the opposite sideline. Making his run by sprinting in a diagonal line across the pitch I was thinking "What the hell is he doing?". Then the kickout arrived to the far endline with his man in his wake and the O'Shea brothers having pulled away from that side of the pitch. I could appreciate the beauty of the preparation and execution that went into that. I'd prefer to see that then to see someone wildly kicking the ball up the pitch with no forethought.

Lemlin

davegrohl48 wrote: »

I think it is impossible to prevent the game moving towards having larger athletes. Somone 6'2" and 14 stone is naturally predisposed towards Gaelic Football, that was also the case 30 years ago.
I think the kicking skills currently in the game are vastly under appreciated by the media, fans and pundits. Players are kicking now with better technique, balance and have better fitness levels to maintain concentration to execute skills.
I was at Mayo - Roscommon and I am looking forward to seeing Mayo meeting a top team to see the battle of tactics.
If anyone noticed in the second half Kevin McGloughlin caught a kickout by sprinting at full speed from the stand side of McHale park to the opposite sideline. Making his run by sprinting in a diagonal line across the pitch I was thinking "What the hell is he doing?". Then the kickout arrived to the far endline with his man in his wake and the O'Shea brothers having pulled away from that side of the pitch. I could appreciate the beauty of the preparation and execution that went into that. I'd prefer to see that then to see someone wildly kicking the ball up the pitch with no forethought.

That's it exactly - no one is asking pundits to wax lyrical like they do on Super Sunday over on Sky but the good parts of the game need to be focused on also.

The Cavan Fermanagh game was by no means a classic but Eugene Keating kicked two wonderful scores before half time. Spillane or O'Rourke didn't even mention them. I'm sure Spillane had been filling his notes for the first half on what vitriol he could spill about Ulster football.

In the second half you'll find it hard to see a better point than when Keating flicked the ball off the ground with his toe and raced forward before lacing it over the bar. Again, not even a mention.

Here you have a young lad aged 24 finally getting some TV exposure and playing well and the pundits don't even comment on his game. We talk about encouraging young people to play football. Start by encouraging the young players that already are.

Keating was nearly lost to Aussie Rules and, with the amount of credit given by the media to players here, Ai'm not surprised so many young players are.

keeponhurling

Take Spillane off the Sunday Game, and much of the negativity surrounding modern football around the country will be gone.

That Indo article about Pat hits the nail on the head

BertMark

Experiment: Take 20-25 guys of *exceptional physical conditioning and a minimum height of 6' 2", who have never before seen or heard of football.

Put them into an intense training camp for one year where they learn the basics of hand passing, tackling, catching etc. while also playing practice games against top sides.

Let them start off in the Championship preliminary round.

How far would they get?

Keep in mind this team can steamroll any team in Ireland physically and can apply pressure all over the field for 70 minutes.

The game plan would be all power, no skill.

Honestly, with the way the game is gone, I think they'd make a serious impression.


*Exceptional meaning lightning quick, powerful and able to go at full tilt for 70 minutes

harpsman

BertMark wrote: »

Experiment: Take 20-25 guys of *exceptional physical conditioning and a minimum height of 6' 2", who have never before seen or heard of football.

Put them into an intense training camp for one year where they learn the basics of hand passing, tackling, catching etc. while also playing practice games against top sides.

Let them start off in the Championship preliminary round.

How far would they get?

Keep in mind this team can steamroll any team in Ireland physically and can apply pressure all over the field for 70 minutes.

The game plan would be all power, no skill.

Honestly, with the way the game is gone, I think they'd make a serious impression.


*Exceptional meaning lightning quick, powerful and able to go at full tilt for 70 minutes

In the unlikely event that you re right you can be pretty sure the same guys would have won 5 in a row 30 years ago.

Anyway sure any county in the country could probably do that now if they wanted.