Cyclists on the M11

bmaxi

This is becoming a regular weekend thing and I'm not talking about random cyclists but cycling clubs. Sometimes groups of up to twenty can be seen but today took the biscuit when one group appeared to be accompanied by a pace car :eek:. This is a joke, the RSA spend taxpayers' money on advertising all the disastrous consequences of not adhering to safety measures on our motorways and yet Gardaí are content to ignore what must be one of the most dangerous practices, as parts of the M11 around Arklow have steep hills and the cyclists can't keep to a straight course.
Perhaps a €500 fine and points on the licence of those that hold them would perk up attention from all concerned.

No Pants

You called the guards to report it and they ignored you?

bmaxi

No Pants wrote: »

You called the guards to report it and they ignored you?

Shortly after passing one group I was overtaken by a Garda car which can't have failed to see them. The Garda car was in no particular hurry, no lights, sirens etc.and even if that had been the case, I presume they were in radio contact with base . Garda patrols are a common sight on the M11 around Arklow and as I say this is a regular occurrence.

mikemcdeedy100

maybe they weren't breaking the law buddy

TINA1984

mikemcdeedy100 wrote: »

maybe they weren't breaking the law buddy

:rolleyes:

Mycroft H

mikemcdeedy100 wrote: »

maybe they weren't breaking the law buddy

ehhhh no. They are. Cyclists shouldn't be on the motorway. anyone with a bit of sense should see that.

lottpaul

They are definitely breaking the law - and are a common weekend sight on any trips I make to the east -- but some of the "blame" must be with the constant changing from M11 to N11 and back again without any apparent change in the actual road itself (may not be explaining myself very well). Between the Dublin border and Arklow it goes from N11 -100 kph, to 60 kph, to 100, to 80 in the Glen of the Downs, to 100 again, then to M11, 120, down to 100 etc before finally going to dual carriageway again - 100kph of course and then 120. For the cyclists to avoid the 120 section in Arklow they have to go into and through the town. Which is safer I wonder?
No answers I'm afraid but it is a mess at present.

Leroy42

The fact that it is constantly changing and a bit of a mess is irrelevant. The law states that no bicycles on the motorway and as such that's it. If that means they need to go through the town then so be it.

I cycle, and have been out with the club and one went this route. I saw them heading onto the M11 and stopped. 1st it's illegal, 2nd it's too dangerous with cars flying by at speed particularly since they do not expect to a cyclist on the road.

Dravokivich

lottpaul wrote: »

but some of the "blame" must be with the constant changing from M11 to N11 and back again

I have a feeling that could be part of a problem with a lot of the N roads, that switch to M roads.

You won't see it generally on a road such as the M50, that's entirely an M road.

Macy0161

They're a regular site on the M11 to M50, including through the winter in darkness. Including going up and over the flyover on the M11 at the start of the M50 where there isn't even a proper hard shoulder.

Changing speed limits/ designation is no excuse - at the start of the motorways there is clear signage. As for safer, I doubt it's safer to be somewhere that other drivers aren't expecting you. Additionally, if they're using the hard shoulder, that's also pretty dangerous place to be - the advice if you break down is to get out of your vehicle and get away from the carriageway.

Shedite27

It's a pity, coz I live in Ranlagh and love going for cycles in Wicklow. But anytime I go down the N11, I have to go through Shankill and Bray to get to Wicklow. Is there any legal way to get to say Wicklow Town without going through the towns or the motorway?

gobnaitolunacy

That is pretty fcukin' idiotic by any standards.

Macy0161

Shedite27 wrote: »

It's a pity, coz I live in Ranlagh and love going for cycles in Wicklow. But anytime I go down the N11, I have to go through Shankill and Bray to get to Wicklow. Is there any legal way to get to say Wicklow Town without going through the towns or the motorway?

If you don't want to go through Bray and Shankill, you could go through Old Conna (parallel to the M11, but the high side). Non motorway vehicles are directed to the old pre M11 route, it's not like they're blocked from something they used to have access too.

Just to state, I do cycle - personally could think of nothing worse than going along a motoway!

lottpaul

Shedite27 wrote: »

It's a pity, coz I live in Ranlagh and love going for cycles in Wicklow. But anytime I go down the N11, I have to go through Shankill and Bray to get to Wicklow. Is there any legal way to get to say Wicklow Town without going through the towns or the motorway?

No, the M11 section from Coynes Cross means you must leave the road at that point but the old N11 is fine from there on and is a nice road. To me, Arklow seems to be a bigger problem in that the bypass/M11 is far shorter than the old N11 but as its a motorway cyclists are not allowed - and as others have said its dangerous for them anyway. Mind you, its not too safe or pleasant on the N11 sections either I'd imagine?

bmaxi

Leroy42 wrote: »

The fact that it is constantly changing and a bit of a mess is irrelevant. The law states that no bicycles on the motorway and as such that's it. If that means they need to go through the town then so be it.

I cycle, and have been out with the club and one went this route. I saw them heading onto the M11 and stopped. 1st it's illegal, 2nd it's too dangerous with cars flying by at speed particularly since they do not expect to a cyclist on the road.

Whist I agree that the constant changing of M to N road is a mess, it is quite obvious for some distance, even travelling at 100kph, that this is going to happen so it must be even more obvious at bike speed. I believe it is a deliberate choice on the part of the cyclists to take this route not merely a mistake but once again the greatest blame IMO lies with those charged with upholding and enforcing the law. The laws are not there to be cherrypicked, you can't decide arbitrarily which will and will not be enforced without the risk of losing public respect for the whole procedure.

Shedite27

Macy0161 wrote: »

If you don't want to go through Bray and Shankill, you could go through Old Conna (parallel to the M11, but the high side).

I must have a look at that road. Shankill and Bray can be killer for traffic

lottpaul wrote: »

Mind you, its not too safe or pleasant on the N11 sections either I'd imagine?

The N11 can be a mess alright. As I said I only use it as far as Shankill but the standard of what passes as a "bike lane" is quite different every 100m. And if you venture into the bus lane you're at the mercy of Dublin bus drivers.

Cookie_Monster

lottpaul wrote: »

No, the M11 section from Coynes Cross means you must leave the road at that point but the old N11 is fine from there on and is a nice road. To me, Arklow seems to be a bigger problem in that the bypass/M11 is far shorter than the old N11 but as its a motorway cyclists are not allowed - and as others have said its dangerous for them anyway. Mind you, its not too safe or pleasant on the N11 sections either I'd imagine?

Anything from the city to Loughlinstown is fine, if a bit boring. Bray to Coins is a great bit of road for cycling, especially the Glen of the downs section

Shedite27 wrote: »

I must have a look at that road. Shankill and Bray can be killer for traffic

http://goo.gl/maps/oosVM

BenShermin

As a cyclist myself moronic carry on like this really annoys me. It only adds fuel to the "you don't pay road tax" brigade's argument.

Cars travelling along here go at 120km/h speeds and don't expect to see pedal cyclists, pedestrians etc. one "foreign object" in the hard shoulder could cause one cyclist to swerve into the left lane and then cause one car to swerve into the right overtaking lane and then cause a pile up. It's suicidal stuff tbh.

Macy0161

There's been a few cyclists on the M11 northbound in the mornings the last couple of weeks (could be the same guy). This morning, he wasn't even content with the hard shoulder and was cycling right on the hard shoulder/ driving lane divide around the Bray North junction - total lunacy, given the air displacement that a truck/ van/ campervan can cause.

Shedite27

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Anything from the city to Loughlinstown is fine, if a bit boring. Bray to Coins is a great bit of road for cycling, especially the Glen of the downs section

http://goo.gl/maps/oosVM

I had a cycle down this way a few weeks ago actually. The zig zag bit coming off the n11 at cherrywood had me rightly confused. Took me a while to figure out where that was going.

vickers209

Good few tractors on it today in hard shoulder heading from rathnew towards coins cross and on to newtown seen a combine far side of kilmac going past enniskerry turn (not a motorway till past fasaroe exit tho)

Surveyor11

http://goo.gl/maps/xYTd3 - this is enough to remind you it's a motorway. Totally idiotic, but probably the only country you'd get away with it.

Owryan

Was a passenger on the motorway from Kilkenny to Carlow on Friday. We passed a large group of cyclists and even worse a car pulled in on the hard shoulder, 2 kids climbing the bank and I assume mammy having a fag n a cuppa !!!!

Mycroft H

Can't understand why anyone would chose this road over quieter side roads. I drive daily and I'd imagine it's actually not a pleasant road to cycle on. It's too busy, noisy and boring.

ProudDUB

Owryan wrote: »

Was a passenger on the motorway from Kilkenny to Carlow on Friday. We passed a large group of cyclists and even worse a car pulled in on the hard shoulder, 2 kids climbing the bank and I assume mammy having a fag n a cuppa !!!!

That's utter madness. You should have called the Guards & reported them. I passed a large group of cyclists on the M7 once. They were doing some sort of charity bike ride. They had 2 police motor cyclists acting as escorts, one in front and one at the back. Both of them had their flashing blue lights on to alert motorists what was going on. They are the only circumstances when it should be allowed imo, and even then, I think its a bit dodgy and very unsafe.

Grandeeod

Alas, Ireland is still coming to terms with the whole Motorway culture. The biggest disappointment for me is the law enforcement and complete lack of it. It almost appears as if the Gardai are stuck in the same ignorance as those that blatantly treat a 120KM roadway like a playground. Funnily enough they have no problem racing after you if you are over the speed limit. Ireland is confused at a very high level. Priorities are arseways!

Carawaystick

How many cyclists have been killed or injured on motorways?
I mean if its very dangerous, surely some have

Cyclists were allowed cycle the arklow bypass for a long while after it opened. It's interesting that the n11 north of the arklow bypass is a sez due to a number of road deaths as is the route through Arklow from Bridge street south the whole way to the Kish.

jackofalltrades

Carawaystick wrote: »

How many cyclists have been killed or injured on motorways?
I mean if its very dangerous, surely some have

How many cyclists have been killed on the non-illegal R772 through Arklow?
Are you seriously trying to suggest that cycling on motorways is safe?

It'll take someone having a blow-out and ploughing into a group of cyclists for something to be done about this.

Spook_ie

Carawaystick wrote: »

How many cyclists have been killed or injured on motorways?
I mean if its very dangerous, surely some have

Cyclists were allowed cycle the arklow bypass for a long while after it opened. It's interesting that the n11 north of the arklow bypass is a sez due to a number of road deaths as is the route through Arklow from Bridge street south the whole way to the Kish.

If cyclists were using all the motorways all the time the casualty rate would I imagine be quite high, however, due the majority of cyclists being law abiding about not riding on motorways the situation doesn't normally arise, but if its getting to be a regular occurrence on a particular stretch of motorway then I believe the traffic corp should be advised and if they don't do anything the minister should be advised

Shedite27

BX 19 wrote: »

Can't understand why anyone would chose this road over quieter side roads. I drive daily and I'd imagine it's actually not a pleasant road to cycle on. It's too busy, noisy and boring.

As someone who likes cycling the Wicklow mountains, there are definitely days when I'd prefer to stick on the motorway back to Dublin, as a triathlete it's about the only chance you get to experience/train going top speed safely on Irish roads.

Not saying this justifies going on a motorway, just trying to explain why some people might do it.

ThisRegard

Shedite27 wrote: »

as a triathlete it's about the only chance you get to experience/train going top speed safely on Irish roads.

Seriously ? You should ask the competitive cycling guys how they manage to train and hit full speed without having to do so on a motorway.

Mycroft H

Shedite27 wrote: »

I'd prefer to stick on the motorway back to Dublin, as a triathlete it's about the only chance you get to experience/train going top speed safely on Irish .

Cycling on motorway ≠ Safe

Shedite27

BX 19 wrote: »

Cycling on motorway ≠ Safe

I refer you to the half of my post which you chose to exclude from the quote :rolleyes:

munchkin_utd

Drove 3500km to England (and a bit of sightseeing) and back across the continent a month ago. Almost all on Motorways.
Did nearly 1000km last weekend down to Italy and back. Again on motorways.

The amount of times I saw trucks merrily plodding down the road, half in the hard shoulder and half in the inside lane was shocking.
If there was any car broken down there would have been carnage.

And, if there was bikes?
Does a human being hit by a truck at speed go plop (like a bubble bursting) or is it more like a gentle bang? Would the cyclist more likely get sent into the ditch (dead) flying or somehow fall under the wheels and be crushed 5times, by each truck axle?

Because should you cycle in the hard shoulder and get hit by one of those many many trucks not remotely staying on the road its more a question of what sound you make as you are killed and how you die, than IF you are killed.

enas

BenShermin wrote: »

Cars travelling along here go at 120km/h speeds and don't expect to see pedal cyclists, pedestrians etc. one "foreign object" in the hard shoulder could cause one cyclist to swerve into the left lane and then cause one car to swerve into the right overtaking lane and then cause a pile up. It's suicidal stuff tbh.

That's a quite apocalyptic scenario. But I don't quite buy into the whole cycling on the motorway is so dangerous argument. Where I live, in Cork, there's a good stretch of the N25 that's a dual carriageway, with a 120 km/h speed limit, which resembles in all respects a motorway (linky), except it's not, and you see plenty of cyclists quite legally cycling there (and there are not so many alternatives).

Now I'm not saying for a moment that this makes it acceptable to cycle illegally on motorways, nor am I saying that I would find it pleasant to cycle under such conditions, legal or not, but I think the dangerousness of the whole thing is slightly overdone.

gobnaitolunacy

enas wrote: »

That's a quite apocalyptic scenario. But I don't quite buy into the whole cycling on the motorway is so dangerous argument. Where I live, in Cork, there's a good stretch of the N25 that's a dual carriageway, with a 120 km/h speed limit, which resembles in all respects a motorway (linky), except it's not, and you see plenty of cyclists quite legally cycling there (and there are not so many alternatives).

Now I'm not saying for a moment that this makes it acceptable to cycle illegally on motorways, nor am I saying that I would find it pleasant to cycle under such conditions, legal or not, but I think the dangerousness of the whole thing is slightly overdone.

Non motorway = legal
Motorway = not legal
To quote Clarkson 'how hard can it be?'

Re the road itself, it is a pain in the hole to get from the city onto the old road to Youghal without encountering quite intimidating traffic whizzing through the roundabouts...but what can you do?

enas

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Non motorway = legal
Motorway = not legal
To quote Clarkson 'how hard can it be?'

I think that's pretty clear to everyone indeed.

I was merely replying to the several posts that suggest that the mere presence of a cyclist on the motorist will almost inevitably lead to a massive pile-up. I think that's largely exaggerated, as the example of the N25 shows (where motorway-like conditions and legal cyclists don't result in havoc). If anything, drivers are more alert when they see something unexpected, and I'd expect most drivers to react very considerately when they see a cyclist on the motorway.

Now, this doesn't mean that cyclists should cycle on motorways, yeah, it's illegal, they shouldn't. Don't we all agree here?

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Re the road itself, it is a pain in the hole to get from the city onto the old road to Youghal without encountering quite intimidating traffic whizzing through the roundabouts...but what can you do?

Not much choice unfortunately. I just never cycle in that direction, which is rather sad (plenty of nice things to see in East Cork).

Macy0161

The difference is (or should be) that on a dual carriageway, no matter the speed limit, slower vehicles are to be expected (as you point out). On a motorway other drivers are not expecting them, which increases the danger.

It's not like cyclists are singled out, as other slow moving vehicles are also not supposed to be on motorways (small bikes/ scooters for example).

enas

Macy0161 wrote: »

The difference is (or should be) that on a dual carriageway, no matter the speed limit, slower vehicles are to be expected (as you point out). On a motorway other drivers are not expecting them, which increases the danger.

My point is that whatever differs from the usual tends to wake up drivers from their drowsiness and makes them very alert (not having a go, I'm not considering myself a better or worse driver than average). Therefore, drivers will generally react appropriately when they see a cyclist on a motorway. Which mostly means do nothing special.

The scariest thing I've seen on an Irish motorway (on the M8 from Cork to Dublin) was a guy driving the wrong way on the right hand lane. Amazingly enough, nothing happened, as everyone was just letting him proceed.

Mikros

enas wrote: »

Therefore, drivers will generally react appropriately when they see a cyclist on a motorway. Which mostly means do nothing special.

I've highlighted the key part of your sentence. The reason the hard shoulder on a motorway can be so dangerous, not just for cyclists but also parked / stopped vehicles, is because some motorists simply are not paying attention and drift across into the hard shoulder. The driver can be either half asleep, fiddling with the radio, eating lunch, on the phone, etc. etc. and because the motorway is so "safe" without junctions or sharp corners people can and do switch off, especially on long journeys. It is far more likely that when a cyclist is in a collision it is because the driver never saw them in the first place.

That combined with the speed differential makes the hard shoulder a particular unsafe place to be. A driver is generally not expecting a cyclist on a motorway and looking away from the road for 5 seconds has travelled nearly 200 metres at 120 km/h.

galwaycyclist

enas wrote: »

That's a quite apocalyptic scenario. But I don't quite buy into the whole cycling on the motorway is so dangerous argument. Where I live, in Cork, there's a good stretch of the N25 that's a dual carriageway, with a 120 km/h speed limit, which resembles in all respects a motorway (linky), except it's not, and you see plenty of cyclists quite legally cycling there (and there are not so many alternatives).

Now I'm not saying for a moment that this makes it acceptable to cycle illegally on motorways, nor am I saying that I would find it pleasant to cycle under such conditions, legal or not, but I think the dangerousness of the whole thing is slightly overdone.

I want to support Enas' observations on this point. Yes it is illegal. Yes there are risks. Yes in the event of collision the injuries are likely to be catastrophic and instantly fatal.

But there also needs to be context - risky compared to what? This is a country with a wholly flawed approach to speed limits and speed management. You will routinely get Irish drivers attempting to drive at motorway speeds on comparatively narrow roads where there are no hard shoulders at all. Conversely, there are many sections of celtic tiger motorway with wide hard shoulders that are comparatively empty of motor traffic for much of the day. In short to argue that something is especially dangerous you need to show that the alternatives are especially safe.

Macy0161

That's a bit of a two wrongs make a right argument imo. The advice if you break down is get out of the car and off the hard shoulder on motorways if it's safe to do so because they are the most dangerous place on the motorway. Saying a regional road with speeding drivers is also dangerous doesn't change that.

Incidentally, one of the spots you see cyclists on the M11 is on the bridge over the M50, where there isn't even a hard shoulder. This section actually has two alternative routes, above and below the motorway.

Cyclists are not singled out regarding motorways - it's all slow moving vehicles, which happens to include cyclists.

galwaycyclist

Macy0161 wrote: »

That's a bit of a two wrongs make a right argument imo. The advice if you break down is get out of the car and off the hard shoulder on motorways if it's safe to do so because they are the most dangerous place on the motorway. Saying a regional road with speeding drivers is also dangerous doesn't change that.

Incidentally, one of the spots you see cyclists on the M11 is on the bridge over the M50, where there isn't even a hard shoulder. This section actually has two alternative routes, above and below the motorway.

Cyclists are not singled out regarding motorways - it's all slow moving vehicles, which happens to include cyclists.

Sorry but with respect you are not thinking this through. The hard shoulder is not the most dangerous place to stop on the motorway they are the safest places. Even though they are the safest places to stop they are still dangerous places so the recommendation is to avoid them as well by leaving the road. But once you leave the road your journey is effectively over.

Spook_ie

100 killed on motorways since 2005

....

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=18990

If I find any later stats I'll link them, but I wonder just how many of the cyclists who say they see nothing wrong with cycling on the hard shoulder would express concern if someone parked on the hard shoulder and set up a picnic on the grass verge next to it?

galwaycyclist

Spook_ie wrote: »

http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=18990
the cyclists who say they see nothing wrong with cycling on the hard shoulder

Please identify these people?

Spook_ie

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Please identify these people?

As none of them seem to have been arrested it may well prove difficult to identify them, however there would seem to be a fair few given the sightings referred to in previous posts, there is of course the possibility that it is only one or two that are continually being sighted but still begs the question of would they be complaining if a vehicle stopped on the hard shoulder and started a picnic, forcing them into the carriageway?

ThisRegard

You're mad for the insistence that people answer you hypothetical situations.

enas

Spook_ie wrote: »

As none of them seem to have been arrested it may well prove difficult to identify them,

Good luck finding them, for only them can answer that burning question:

Spook_ie wrote: »

would they be complaining if a vehicle stopped on the hard shoulder and started a picnic, forcing them into the carriageway?

Don't forget to update us with the answer.

hoodwinked

enas wrote: »

That's a quite apocalyptic scenario. But I don't quite buy into the whole cycling on the motorway is so dangerous argument. Where I live, in Cork, there's a good stretch of the N25 that's a dual carriageway, with a 120 km/h speed limit, which resembles in all respects a motorway (linky), except it's not, and you see plenty of cyclists quite legally cycling there (and there are not so many alternatives).

Now I'm not saying for a moment that this makes it acceptable to cycle illegally on motorways, nor am I saying that I would find it pleasant to cycle under such conditions, legal or not, but I think the dangerousness of the whole thing is slightly overdone.

funnily enough while driving on the N40 between ballincollig and curraheen last Sunday there was a garda speedcheck in that area they have,


as we approached we saw the garda basically telling off the cyclist and obviously told him to walk with it rather than cycling and he did so, the speed is 120km/h and there have been numerous cyclist deaths on that stretch because of it. but i thought surely him getting off the road quicker would be safer than walking along the hard shoulder?

its definitely an N road with 120km/h speed limit so do gardaí apply motorway rules? or was it just because its a cyclist accident blackspot?

enas

hoodwinked wrote: »

as we approached we saw the garda basically telling off the cyclist and obviously told him to walk with it rather than cycling and he did so,

If that's true, that is absolutely mad. Not only there's no ground for such order, but he was, as you point out, instructing him to do something much more dangerous.

hoodwinked wrote: »

the speed is 120km/h and there have been numerous cyclist deaths on that stretch because of it.

Really? Have heard of none, can you provide me with some references?

hoodwinked

enas wrote: »

Really? Have heard of none, can you provide me with some references?

apologies it was the N22 when the accidents happened, so its hard to find them when you google N40!


here is a Link to a thread on one accident but its known historically to have loads more, (when i lived in ballincollig i used pass them almost daily)