Nelson Mandela: Hero or Villain?

pheno

I've been hearing a lot about Nelson Mandela on the radio recently, primarily about his health, so I thought I should know more about the man.

What I would like to know is, some consider him a hero for his fight to end apartheid (segregation) in South Africa, others say he is a terrorist and a communist.

Now I am aware that ANC had connections with the Soviet Union but what exactly makes Mandela "good" or "bad"?

Thanks...

Hitchens

still here!

dodderangler

Immortal
The fcuker just won't die

hidinginthebush

Maggie Thatcher saw him as a terrorist, so he's good in my books!

Hitchens

has he Irish antecedents? :pac:

Wacker The Attacker

He's treated as some sort of saint.

I still haven't met anyone who has explained exactly why

Fr_Dougal

Well he played a hero in Snakes On A Plane.

Hitchens

was he ever shot by Bang Bang? :P

Wacker The Attacker

Hitchens wrote: »

was he ever shot by Bang Bang? :P

Hey hi diddly ay and out goes she

Busted Flat.

IMHO, he was as useful to his country, as an ashtray on a motorbike.

pheno

I always wondered, why is he considered such a saint? I mean surely there has to be a darker side to his "holiness".

Hitchens

will he croak in time for tomorrows episode of................'Da Lavelahn'?

thorbarry

Sidekick

super_furry

You look at the people who slate him - Thatcher, BNP leader Nick Griffin, etc and it's pretty clear that he's a hero.

Buzz84

pheno wrote: »

I've been hearing a lot about Nelson Mandela on the radio recently, primarily about his health, so I thought I should know more about the man.

What I would like to know is, some consider him a hero for his fight to end apartheid (segregation) in South Africa, others say he is a terrorist and a communist.

Now I am aware that ANC had connections with the Soviet Union but what exactly makes Mandela "good" or "bad"?

Thanks...

How does that make you bad?

Duggys Housemate

Busted Flat. wrote: »

IMHO, he was as useful to his country, as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Yes but you know nothing Botha boy.

Duggys Housemate

Buzz84 wrote: »

How does that make you bad?

He wasn't a communist but were he one he wouldn't be a hero. Same as fascism.

wes

The man was a hero imho. Sure he wasn't perfect, but then no one is.

Buzz84

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

He wasn't a communist but were he one he wouldn't be a hero. Same as fascism.

Could you please explain why?

Duggys Housemate

Major member of ANC.
Set up the armed wing , which was a "clean" terror group targeting government buildings etc. ( although later , when he was in jail it commited some civilian attacks).
spent 27 years in jail.
Helped end apartheid with DeKlerk when he was released.

Probably stopped a civil war because he was loved by white and black as president.

Other than that - he didn't help much.

Duggys Housemate

Buzz84 wrote: »

Could you please explain why?

Because communism is a necessarily totalitarian system. Since he is not one this is off topic. Set up a thread in politics and invite me in if you want to discuss political theories - though it's been done to death.

Duggys Housemate

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Major member of ANC.
Set up the armed wing , which was a "clean" terror group targeting government buildings etc. ( although later , when he was in jail it commited some civilian attacks).
spent 27 years in jail.
Helped end apartheid with DeKlerk when he was released.

Probably stopped a civil war because he was loved by white and black as president.

Other than that - he didn't help much.

You forgot to add what seems to have happened after: where under Mandela SA becomes a practical one party state with some of the most corrupt leaders in the world, who Mandela not only endorses, but uses his own personal cash to prop them up.

I can see why the Irish establishment love him, at least.

T-Maxx

Busted Flat. wrote: »

IMHO, he was as useful to his country, as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Love him or hate him, at least educate yourself before you make comments like this.

Busted Flat.

T-Maxx wrote: »

Love him or hate him, at least educate yourself before you make comments like this.

I have, and I would like to hear of some of his achievements, after he became president and his country was so called liberated. Besides the corruption.

Duggys Housemate

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You forgot to add what seems to have happened after: where under Mandela SA becomes a practical one party state with some of the most corrupt leaders in the world, who Mandela not only endorses, but uses his own personal cash to prop them up.

I can see why the Irish establishment love him, at least.

He's a member of the ANC. Two problems there

1) the ANC may be corrupt ( I really don't know) but it's not a racist anti democratic force oppressing a minority which is also corrupt. That's progress. Making things better is not the same as making things perfect. The first is possible, the second is idealism.
2) it's a one party state because people vote that way. Eventually newer parties will take over.

Things might get worse from now but that will be because Mandela is gone.

Duggys Housemate

Busted Flat. wrote: »

I have, and I would like to hear of some of his achievements, after he became president and his country was so called liberated. Besides the corruption.

He ended apartheid, Botha boy. It wasn't so-called liberated it was actually liberated.

Is this hatred of Mandela because the typical Irish mediocrity is anti all politicians now , or is there something more sinister going on.

T-Maxx

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

He ended apartheid, Botha boy. It wasn't so-called liberated it was actually liberated.

Is this hatred of Mandela because the typical Irish mediocrity is anti all politicians now , or is there something more sinister going on.

I think you nailed it there.

Busted Flat.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

He ended apartheid, Botha boy. It wasn't so-called liberated it was actually liberated.

Is this hatred of Mandela because the typical Irish mediocrity is anti all politicians now , or is there something more sinister going on.

Childish abuse is not necessary. Your comment is not worthy of a reply.

Celly Smunt

More of a poster boy for the new movement than anything else.There were more effective figures pulling his strings behind the scenes.


Just to clarify I don't mean that in a crazed conspiricy theorist kind of way.He was a puppet used by his own,and no harm really.

grizzly

Busted Flat. wrote: »

I have, and I would like to hear of some of his achievements, after he became president and his country was so called liberated. Besides the corruption.

One of the biggest achievements was simply keeping everything together. SA could have been torn apart with people taking revenge for years of oppression. Mandela showed tremendous forgiveness towards the people who made his life hell.

Duggys Housemate

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Childish abuse is not necessary. Your comment is not worthy of a reply.

I'm calling you that because you mistook DeKlerk for Botha in the other thread but were certain as to why "Botha" was doing a deal. Strong statements need people to know what they are talking about and you seem to have no clue on Mandela, just a taxi driver rant on the lines of "they're all the same".

newmug

Unbelievable! Only on Boards.ie! First DeValera was morphed into the worst man in Irelands history, then Mother Teresa was slated as a sadist, then Stalinist Communism was somehow excused, and now Nelson Mandela was a bad guy? How can anyone think he was a villain? Only on Boards.ie, where you'll find the largest collection of clowns in one place on the Irish-based internet. Only on Boards!

Duggys Housemate

grizzly wrote: »

One of the biggest achievements was simply keeping everything together. SA could have been torn apart with people taking revenge for years of oppression. Mandela showed tremendous forgiveness towards the people who made his life hell.

Yes. Remarkable. Which is why white South Africa loves him as much as black South Africa.

horsemaster

Just because one befriends the Soviet Union doesn't mean that they are bad. Its what they do that defines them. I am not sure if I would consider him a saint. But I would consider him to be a good man who fought against racism against insurmountable odd. He risked his life many times against racism. That makes him a hero in my eyes.

Senna

To even consider him a villain is ludicrous, history books with portray him as a hero, he first rejected the help of communists within SA, but he then seen it as a means to an end, they had over thrown governments before and facing such brutal conditions (arrested every few months, banned from talking to more than one person at a time), he used their support to build the ANC.

Riddle101

Trust After Hours to make Mandela into a villain. People go on about the ANC being terrorists etc. In reality, terrorist acts are part of wars. Pretty much any country that's been in a war or conflict has done some terrorism of their own, and will continue to do so, because war is bloody and dirty. At the end of the day, as already said he ended Apartheid in SA. He's a hero, but like many heroes he has blood on his hands.

Smidge

Riddle101 wrote: »

Trust After Hours to make Mandela into a villain. People go on about the ANC being terrorists etc. In reality, terrorist acts are part of wars. Pretty much any country that's been in a war or conflict has done some terrorism of their own, and will continue to do so, because war is bloody and dirty. At the end of the day, as already said he ended Apartheid in SA. He's a hero, but like many heroes he has blood on his hands.

Just to play the devils advocate here, everything you have said above has been said about the troubles in Ireland.

But when the same statements are said about here and what went on, the response is very different(not having a view point either way but just making a point I guess).

Karl Stein

My only criticism of him is that he didn't advocate the nationalization of S.A.'s natural resources after he became president.

dfx-

The ANC are not really a party for governance. He stands out in that regard

Mbeki, Zuma and especially Malema are interesting characters. You wonder what they could get up to when Mandela departs and I think that will be when you see how heroic Mandela was.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Benny_Cake

I'd suggest that if anyone is genuinely interested in the background of how the ANC decided to set up an armed wing, they should read Long Walk to Freedom by the man himself. It certainly wasn't something that came about easily there was a lot of debate and resistance to the idea.

Personally I would question the impact that MK (the ANC armed wing) actually had, and I'm opposed to all forms of violence. However, given that the apartheid government had shut down all possible nonviolent avenues of resistance by the early 1960s one can certainly understand why Mandela and his colleagues came to the conclusion that they did.

When he passes, he will be missed as a moral symbol, but South Africa isn't going to collapse.

Legs.Eleven

Hero.

T-Maxx

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'd suggest that if anyone is genuinely interested in the background of how the ANC decided to set up an armed wing, they should read Long Walk to Freedom by the man himself. It certainly wasn't something that came about easily there was a lot of debate and resistance to the idea.

Personally I would question the impact that MK (the ANC armed wing) actually had, and I'm opposed to all forms of violence. However, given that the apartheid government had shut down all possible nonviolent avenues of resistance by the early 1960s one can certainly understand why Mandela and his colleagues came to the conclusion that they did.

When he passes, he will be missed as a moral symbol, but South Africa isn't going to collapse.

SA is collapsing. And has been for the last 15 years.

Personally I don't think the passing of Mandela will have any great consequenses, despite all the right wing scaremongering.

BluE-WinG

It all goes back to him orchestrating all the attacks on the white schools in the midlands of South Africa in order to get his point across.

Hundreds of innocent kids decimated by petrol bombs, thousands of families torn apart...

How can anyone call him a Hero, and forget this? Because modern media has portrayed him as a 'great' man.

No wonder he forgave the whites for the years of oppression, out of guilt for what he did to them.

Benny_Cake

BluE-WinG wrote: »

It all goes back to him orchestrating all the attacks on the white schools in the midlands of South Africa in order to get his point across.

Hundreds of innocent kids decimated by petrol bombs, thousands of families torn apart...

Any source for this?

fishy fishy

Smidge wrote: »

Just to play the devils advocate here, everything you have said above has been said about the troubles in Ireland.

But when the same statements are said about here and what went on, the response is very different(not having a view point either way but just making a point I guess).

great point. I have to laugh when I think about when Nelson Mandela was here in Ireland - you would want to have seen the way various businessmen/upstanding members of the community (snigger) were rushing to get their photos taken and their mugs in the paper when they attended his speech. But when basically the same story is put via groups closer to home the look of disgust that passes their faces. Hypocrites of the highest order. Also they only think of Mandela as a "hero" because all of a sudden the "media" told them he was. So transparent.

He was always a hero - the people who think he is a hero now because it's "trendy" and "ok" are only hypocrites that will go along with anything they are told.

The Clown Man

Hang on ...

He became the first black president right after successfully ending apartheid, avoided a civil war by calming his own supporters in a way they considered traitorous at the time, reached out to the most racist people in the world with a hand of friendship and oversaw a tense but peaceful transition of power so successfully that even today the white population of SA revere him as a leader and teacher.

Sure, there are going to be problems with corruption when a revolutionary party of active rebels takes control, he is one man in a party of soldiers, but Mandela is solely responsible for keeping the bloodshed to a minimum in a time when things could have been much worse.

He showed the world that ingrained hatred no matter how strong can be completely overcome almost overnight by offering peace and empathy in the place of force and violence.

Sound like a hero to you?

BluE-WinG

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Any source for this?

Common knowledge for Ex-Pat south africans such as myself.

In his autobiography "the long walk to Freedom" he casually admits "signing off" the 1983 Church Street bombing carried out by the ANC and killing 19 innocent people whilst injuring another 200.

Busted Flat.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=letter%20to%20former%20president%20of%20south%20africa%20letting%20black%20people%20down&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CDwQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.news24.com%2FMyNews24%2FHow-Mandela-sold-out-blacks-20120717&ei=IgrIUdvZMNGg7AacpYGYCA&usg=AFQjCNGVWZlvJNoIuZx8t4IQUBSYNU49Ew&bvm=bv.48293060,d.ZGU

Since it is Nelson R Mandela birthday today 18 July 2012, it is only befitting to write a letter to him as he and the world celebrates his birthday. This is an open letter to Mandela.
Dear Former President Nelson Mandela,
I was only about 5 years old when were released from prison. I come from a poor background as a black child and I was raised by my grandmother. In 1994 South Africa had its first democratic elections; I remember people around me including my grandma were excited to vote for you and the ANC government. Sadly my grandma passed away before she could vote in beginning of April in 1994.
I understand that you had meetings between 1985-1990 with P. W. Botha to have a negotiated settlement. Revered late ANC President, Oliver Reginald Tambo, referring to your meetings with the colonial-apartheid regime in the crucial 1980s, said “Prisoners can’t negotiate their freedom”.
I have read that according to aged ANC veterans, Tambo seemed disturbed about senior members of the leadership including you, who could have compromised the organisation. He seemed to question whom to trust. This, according to those veterans, eventually led to Tambo’s first stroke.
In 1990 before you were released from prison you assured your supporters that the nationalisation of mines, banks and minerals were on the cards. That belief had formed the core doctrine of the ANC and was enshrined in a document known as The Freedom Charter.
"The national wealth of our country, the heritage of South Africans, shall be restored to the people; the mineral wealth beneath the soil; the banks and monopoly industries shall be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole; all other industries and trade shall be controlled to assist the well-being of the people," the charter states.
It later emerged that you and other ANC leaders were busily creatively re-interpreting the “Freedom Charter’s” commitment to nationalisation in order to comfort the monopoly white capitalists.

The nature of the sell out
When you negotiated with the Nationalist had intended to oversee a settlement which guarantees the maintenance of a white capitalist South Africa and of the profits extracted from the exploited black masses, and leaves power firmly in the hands of the white capitalists for the foreseeable future. As De Klerk has insisted “I do not intend to negotiate myself out of power”. On the contrary, negotiations were intended to prevent the victory of the black masses. De Klerk had laid a trap for the blacks into which they were being led by you. Any so-called 'deal' made with devils MUST, by default, go wrong! Truth be told; you were out-negotiated by the Nationalists.
Failed transfer of power during negotiations
The negotiations focused on two aspects: one was political, the other economic. When you were negotiating with the Nationalists you choose to separate political and economic power. That was your biggest mistake and betrayal to black people. The transfer of ownership of wealth and land is at the heart of a transfer of power. Hence it was clearly stipulated in the Freedom Charter. But you chose to ignore that.
During the negotiations everyone was watching the political negotiations. You were too concerned that if the political negotiations didn’t go well there would be mass protest. People were not interested in the economic negotiations and when the economic negotiators would report back, people thought it was technical; no one was interested. (Lack of education) You should have known better. This is where we missed our freedom completely and you sold it to the Nationalists.
Failed economic negotiations and state ownership of the Reserve Bank
Mr Former President, your mandate from the people was to ensure that the values of the Freedom Charter were implemented including nationalisation of country’s assets. Instead of nationalising the mines you were meeting regularly with Harry Oppenheimer, former chairman of the mining giants Anglo-American and De Beers, the economic symbols of apartheid rule.
Shortly after the 1994 election, you even submitted the ANC’s economic program to Oppenheimer for approval and made several key revisions to address his concerns, as well as those of other top industrialists. Shame on you for selling out of minerals and land to the imperialists.
The outcomes of those meetings were that you could have the political power but the gold and diamonds would remain in the hands of the individuals that controlled it before. Have you forgotten what the Freedom Charter had said??
One of the most revealing aspects of the economic transition was the ownership of the Reserve Bank of South Africa. Arguably the most powerful institution in the country, its fate was explained by Durban businessman Vishnu Padaychee; asked to draft a document for the negotiating team on the on the pro’s and con’s of having an autonomous central bank, run with total autonomy from the elected government. Padayachee could not believe what he was hearing. He and his team drafted and submitted the document with a clear policy of not allowing the Reserve Bank to be autonomous.
He was later told by the negotiating team that, “We had to give that one up”.
The bank is privately owned and today has some 650 shareholders. Why did you let go of the Reserve Bank and let the imperialist whites take control of it Mandela?
During the negotiations you agreed that not only would the Reserve Bank be run as an autonomous entity within the South African state, with its independence enshrined in the SA constitution, but it would be headed by the same man who ran it under apartheid, Chris Stals. Another Apartheid era figure, finance minister Derek Keyes, also retained his position in the new administration. Mandela how could you allow the people who oppressed us to be in charge of the Reserve Bank?
Padayachee lamented that with the loss of the Reserve Bank, “everything would be lost in terms of economic transformation”. This is indeed true; everything was lost when YOU handed over the Reserve Bank!!!!! One of the Freedom Charter pledges is the redistribution of land; this became highly constrained with a new clause in the constitution which protected all private property.
Failed rainbow-nation coated myth
You have been preaching this rainbow-nation myth to the world that does not exist but only exists in your head. Reconciliation has meant nothing but black people `forgiving’ whites for 300+ years of dispossession, humiliation and suffering. I experience pain every time a white South African - at the shop; in a bar; on the Talk Radio 702 or online forums - says that “We need to forget the past, get over it.” It is like they are saying to us `forget your pain’. And that from someone who benefited at your expense! We have suffered racial abuse and our abusers are among us.
You and Desmond Tutu’s rainbow myth glossed over this pain - much to the relief of whites. Whites fail to acknowledge our pain and suffering - and their position as beneficiaries of our pain. But you were overly concerned with not rocking the boat as far as whites were concerned. That is why you are the subject of a personality cult in the white community than the black community.
Whites in this country believe that you are the only honourable black person while the rest of us blacks are corrupt, criminals, rapists, drunkards and uneducated buffoons.
The FREE & FAIR environment post-94 is another rainbow-coated myth. Black people are not free (unless you describe freedom as being able to vote and not having to carry ID’s 24/7). We are not FREE and very little is fair! All thanks to you Mandela.
The current state
Are you aware that blacks remain landless, underfed, houseless, under- employed, badly represented in senior managerial positions? The state of healthcare and education for black people remains as it was, if not worse than, under apartheid.
Vestiges of apartheid and colonial economic patterns, ownership and control remain intact despite the attainment of political freedom by you. Are you aware that political freedom without economic emancipation is meaningless?
The unemployment crisis is also defined along racial lines due to the fact that in the third quarter of 2010, 29.80% of blacks were officially unemployed, compared with 22.30% of coloureds, 8.60% of Asians and only 5.10% of whites. About 12 million of the population lives on less than R2.50 per day, whilst 16 million South Africans receive social grants.
In terms of racial distribution of per capita income, African and coloured income levels in 2008 were still only 13% and 22% respectively of white per capita income, compared to 10.9% and 19.3% in 1993. The income gap for Indians has narrowed, with Indian per capita income in 2008 standing at 60% of those of whites as against 42% in 1993.
In 1995, median per capita expenditure among Africans was R333 a month compared to whites at R3 443 a month. In 2008, median expenditure per capita for Africans was R454 a month compared to whites at R5 668 a month. Source: [Leibbrandt, M. et al. (2010), "Trends in South African Income Distribution and Poverty since the Fall of Apartheid"]
The economy has failed to create jobs at the pace necessary to reduce extremely high unemployment, and the education system has failed to ensure that equalised public spending on schooling translates into improved education for poor black children.
Final thoughts
The democracy has not brought what was promised, you as former president of the ANC and of the country is responsible for that misdirection.
Mr Former President what you have done for black people is that you have laid the final brick by selling out on the struggle to achieve your dream of political victory. Your dream which has become our worst nightmare as black people.
You sold us as black nation for a “Noble Peace Prize” and that is the reason for the service delivery demonstration and the lack of service delivery. Our Constitution hailed as the best in the world favours the Caucasians while it oppresses the Africans. Thanks for nothing Mandela. You understood the Kempton Park negotiations as a sell-out solution to rescue white capital and for the few in power, and that such a democracy would continue the suffering of the black majority.
I have a problem with people giving “Messianic status to Madiba” like a black Jesus when we all know that you have failed the black nation.
When I started out this letter I told you about my grandma who died before she could vote for you. Well, I am glad that she never voted for you as she would have voted for a traitor. What you have done is simply continued where the apartheid government left us off and dug the holes of poverty and oppression deeper.
Before you leave this earth I would like you to take responsibility and apologise for your actions and what you did to black people. You sold our land to the imperialists, if you fail to apologise before you die it simply means you are an accomplice to them.
When you eventually die and meet the likes of Dr Hendrink Verwoerd and P.W. Botha may you have good time with them and laugh at how blacks continue to suffer. I have nothing but hatred for what you have done to us.
Signing out from the deep dark hell hole of continued oppression you put us in.
Yours Sincerely,
Youngster

That about sums it up.

Beefy78

super_furry wrote: »

You look at the people who slate him - Thatcher, BNP leader Nick Griffin, etc and it's pretty clear that he's a hero.

Got any sources for some of these "slates" that Thatcher gave him?

She said that the ANC were terrorists, which was more of a case of poor diplomacy than being incorrect, and she opposed sanctions on ideological grounds. She also lobbied successive South African governments to release Mandela many years before he was eventually freed.

As for Mandela, it's clichéd to say that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter but it's definitely the case here. South Africa is a far from perfect country but it's in much better shape today than it was 25 years ago and a lot of that is down to men like Mandela. He was a figurehead who managed to unify a country.

fryup

Hitchens wrote: »

has he Irish antecedents? :pac:

quick lets find out before he goes, might boost tourism from SA

pheno wrote: »

I always wondered, why is he considered such a saint? I mean surely there has to be a darker side to his "holiness".

i'm sure channel 4 have a documentary on stand by