Kimmage interviews Dan Martin

buffalo

In the Indo: http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling-upholding-his-familys-values-29365832.html

Nice long piece.

edit: only reading it myself now. He interviews the whole family!

snollup

Enjoyed that, thanks.

MPFG

I knew there was something not right about the realtionship between Stephen Roche and the Martin's
Just the way Stephen Roche talks about Dan Martin's success ...


Fasinating about the mother's DNA ....my brother is great at all sports ....and gets it from my mothers family .....My father's family are armchair sports people !

And now my brothers boys have not inherited his sporting ability but his (and my) nephew , my sister's boy is looking like he is going to be great at all sports

Lumen

My children will be delighted to know that they're getting their sporting prowess from their mother.

Inquitus

Lumen wrote: »

My children will be delighted to know that they're getting their sporting prowess from their mother.

Given the names my Wife has called me for having the temerity to take her over Howth and the Nag's head on a bike, I hope she has some hidden sprinting genes!

resdubwhite

cracking piece

kimmage really is an excellent journo.

surripere

I hate my ma

MPFG

surripere wrote: »

I hate my ma

I don't think that matters when it comes ot DNA inheritence

However maybe you need to talk about it on another boards.ie thread

Beasty

Delighted to see Kimmage is working for the Sunday Indo and Newstalk during the Tour. He sounded quite chirpy when interviewed on Newstalk yesterday - hopefully this will lead to something permanent for him.

MPFG

Why is there the bit about Karma at the beginning and how you can't get away with screwing people over all your life....what is that about and who is it aimed at ??

I think Kimmage writes well but he cannot help but make digs at people and sling stuff....If he could only let the past go he would be a happier and much more employed individual

flutered

MPFG wrote: »

Why is there the bit about Karma at the beginning and how you can't get away with screwing people over all your life....what is that about and who is it aimed at ??

I think Kimmage writes well but he cannot help but make digs at people and sling stuff....If he could only let the past go he would be a happier and much more employed individual

my guess as he could not make it to the table of cycling he holds a grudge against all the people who did, not being able to get the goods kelly and roche does not rest easy on his shoulders.

MPFG

Lumen wrote: »

Did you read past the first paragraph?

I read the whole article

morana

raced with both of them in the Gorey. Also the brother did it as well.

The da is sound.

Kingdom Man

good read thanks for that!

boege

MPFG wrote: »

Why is there the bit about Karma at the beginning and how you can't get away with screwing people over all your life....what is that about and who is it aimed at ??

I think Kimmage writes well but he cannot help but make digs at people and sling stuff....If he could only let the past go he would be a happier and much more employed individual

Have to agree, read the whole article twice as i found it strange. There was nothing in there about DM that was not printed already in many other articles on Dan. I concluded that the purpose of the article was to get Dan's father to discuss his views about the Roche family. How this is relevant to Dan Martin's current career is lost on me!

Inquitus

I thought the karma was that in the current generation, the Martin is far more successful than the Roche, that said that was my interpretation and it is far from clear and somewhat confusing.

BryanL

I thought the Karma was that cycling took Neil Martin in and spat him out, like it does with most who dream of being a Pro, but the karma now was the success of his son and the happiness it gives the family?

Jeffm587

I grew up in the same estate as PK in the 80's and the whole family were legends to me . Used to see the three brothers heading out early of a Sunday and return back hours later and think Jaysus that's hardcore . Don't know Paul personally but when he started writing I always kinda agreed and aligned myself to his way of thinking perhaps due to the geographical bias, perhaps due to the fact that it made sense also. Anyways reading today's piece it struck me maybe there was a slight at the Uncle but also maybe we are getting closer to the day where he writes that was a great days racing and maybe the racing and the spectacle are the story and this whole thing is going in the right direction despite the transgressions of the past, maybe?

mirv

Another great article about Neil Martin here. Sounds like he's a pretty decent bloke.

http://www.cyclismas.com/2013/02/everyones-dad/

Esroh

BryanL wrote: »

I thought the Karma was that cycling took Neil Martin in and spat him out, like it does with most who dream of being a Pro, but the karma now was the success of his son and the happiness it gives the family?

This is what I took from

buffalo

There's something about Kimmage's writing, where - given the chance - he gets down to the personal core of the story. It's easy to write about Martin's LBL win, or how he joined some feeder team as an U23, but Kimmage peels back a couple of layers to find the true back story.

What's underneath isn't always pretty, and he often goes straight to the uncomfortable truths. I think this is what drives people away from his writing, but it's also what makes him a cracking journalist.

imho.

Charlie69

BryanL wrote: »

I thought the Karma was that cycling took Neil Martin in and spat him out, like it does with most who dream of being a Pro, but the karma now was the success of his son and the happiness it gives the family?

that's my interpretation too,Kimmage excellent

TinyExplosions

BryanL wrote: »

I thought the Karma was that cycling took Neil Martin in and spat him out, like it does with most who dream of being a Pro, but the karma now was the success of his son and the happiness it gives the family?

That, and as a counterpoint to the usual question Dan gets asked of "so, does yer uncle give you loads of tips". Thought it was a great article...

MPFG

Her's my favourite quote on Karma
“How people treat you is their karma; how you react is yours.”
―Wayne W. Dyer

There are thousands of karma quotes out there by many reknown individuals

Neil and Dan Martin (and mother) seem like really lovely people. Kimmage is a very good writer who asks what other dare not ... a given

But Dan Martin's success is about as much a reflection on his father as Nicolas Roche's lack of success in on his......they are both their own men and not an extension of old scars.

Kimmage does get to the heat of things but to suggest that a quote like

“Karma comes after everyone eventually. You can't get away with screwing people over your whole life, I don't care who you are. What goes around comes around. That's how it works. Sooner or later the universe will serve you the revenge that you deserve.”
― Jessica Brody, The Karma Club

does not carry an agenda is missing Kimmages need to score points, which I feel is evident and unnecessary.

Can't we just celebrate everyone's own path in life? - I think we'll find that is the way to good karma

yop

Great article, really enjoy Kimmages writing

Junior

I have read it a couple of times and it's well written, and well put together, but Kimmage couldn't refrain from framing it as a dig at Roche, he could have done like the Martin Family and left Stephen to one side and just told their story but he didn't. That's the thing I've found with Kimmage, when he gets an axe to grind, he keeps grinding the same way regardless of result or topic. I know this is a *good* thing where doping is concerned and he's been very vocal in keeping that in the spotlight, but sometimes there's more than one way to achieve a goal.

niceonetom

I thought this:


Dan: "I think it's a moral-fibre thing . . . I mean, we were talking about this the other day but in every report now it says, 'They are not doping because the testing is so good'. But the cultural aspect is very much overlooked. I don't dope for the same reason that I don't walk out of a shop with stuff without paying. I've never stolen anything in my life. I've never cheated in an exam. Why would I take drugs?"

was in subtle but important contrast to this:

http://www.thescore.ie/nicolas-roche-everybody-cheats-at-some-stage-631972-Oct2012/

Accidental? Or part of Kimmage's nefarious plan to drive wedge between cousins?

del_boy13

I always enjoy reading Paul Kimmage when he is being interviewed sometimes the bitterness comes through as it is obviously a very raw emotion for him how he has been treated up until 2012.

I am always struck by the passage in Rough Ride when he describes how he felt after a training session with SK before he stopped cycling. To paraphrase he was exhausted drained completely to empty. He asks SK does he always train get to that point, he replies always. Kimmage has only gotten to that level a few times in his career. My point is that there is still a level he never pushed himself to consistently as a cyclist and to be fair most people can't punish themselves like that all of the time.

I would say that he has felt that pain in a different way since he started writing. I think the bitterness comes from the reaction to the events after cycling and not to his own career as a cyclist. Unfortunately the two are/have become completely intertwined and its going to take a long time before they can be separated.

Looking forward to reading him for the tour should be +1 on buffalo's post he always gets to the raw emotion.

riparooo

This article is interesting but I suspect the Martins in particular are seething. The interview went on for over two hours and covered all the obvious bits. Then the piece focused in on how Neil career didn't develop with some blame being attributed to Stephen Roche and how Stephen Roche hasn't ever helped or given advice to Dan.

I seriously doubt when the interview was agreed to that the Martins thought this would be the focus of a very long conversation with Kimmage.

I like Kimmage as a sports writer, think he is one of the best, but any Irish cyclist would be best to stay far far away from him.

This is just the sort of article that Nico or Dan didn't need in the run up to the TdF.

Lumen

riparooo wrote: »

This article is interesting but I suspect the Martins in particular are seething. The interview went on for over two hours and covered all the obvious bits. Then the piece focused in on how Neil career didn't develop with some blame being attributed to Stephen Roche and how Stephen Roche hasn't ever helped or given advice to Dan.

Well, the impression I got from the interview is that the Martins and the Roches are not close.

If that's true why should any of them care about their laundry being aired in public?

Maria was quoted as saying "Stephen is only my brother". You're hardly going to say that to any journo, Kimmage in particular, if you want to keep it private.

riparooo

Lumen wrote: »

Well, the impression I got from the interview is that the Martins and the Roches are not close.

If that's true why should any of them care about their laundry being aired in public?

Maria was quoted as saying "Stephen is only my brother". You're hardly going to say that to any journo, Kimmage in particular, if you want to keep it private.

Having some experience in this area - from both a writer and someone being interviewed, its extremely difficult to discipline onesself in a two hour plus conversation with a journalist to say what you want to say not what the journalist wants you to say.

To me it looks like Kimmage softened them up with lots of talk about Dan and his prospects/experiences to date (which were barely touched on in the article) and when they were relaxed in his company delved into issues around the family. It looks like there was no Garmin pr person sitting in and so it appears the Martins were much more forthcoming about their family 'politics' than they might have wished to be.

elduggo

Roche said the same thing in his book though, only he went a little further than saying they weren't close. I'm paraphrasing, but in relation to his being selected over Neil Martin for that pro contract he mentioned that Martin always held it against him for it and that they never liked each other as a result.

Tombo2001

riparooo wrote: »

Having some experience in this area - from both a writer and someone being interviewed, its extremely difficult to discipline onesself in a two hour plus conversation with a journalist to say what you want to say not what the journalist wants you to say.

To me it looks like Kimmage softened them up with lots of talk about Dan and his prospects/experiences to date (which were barely touched on in the article) and when they were relaxed in his company delved into issues around the family. It looks like there was no Garmin pr person sitting in and so it appears the Martins were much more forthcoming about their family 'politics' than they might have wished to be.

So you would assume in this case that the Martins were not shown the article before it was published?

Either way......its out there now.

Another observation: "Paul Kimmage is bitter" has been mentioned a few times. I would say he's entitled to be.

ROK ON

The article is typical of the man. All subtext and ulterior motives.

A bitter twisted troll with serious issues. He needs counselling to help him come to terms with what has been an intensely difficult period in his life.

His use to cycling journalism has passed IMHO.

Tombo2001

ROK ON wrote: »

The article is typical of the man. All subtext and ulterior motives.

.

What ulterior motives are you talking about?

Chartsengrafs

I enjoyed it anyway. Damage limitation my Rocher Snr?:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/roche-cites-martin-as-one-to-watch-1.1440943

Chips Lovell

I've interviewed Dan Martin before. He isn't naive or a pushover. He's a smart, articulate guy and if he just wanted a piece about his racing, he wouldn't have agreed to having his parents in on it.

I reckon it's unfair on Kimmage to suggest that he somehow bullied or tricked the Martins into saying what they did.

Of course if the Martins come out on say they're unhappy with how they were presented, that's fair enough, but on the evidence of the piece alone, I can't see anything that warrants finger pointing.

Chartsengrafs

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

and if he just wanted a piece about his racing, he wouldn't have agreed to having his parents in on it. .

Couldn't agree more with this. I think anyone who feels the Martins were in some way 'led' may be missing the point.

fed up sick and tired

ROK ON wrote: »

The article is typical of the man. All subtext and ulterior motives.

A bitter twisted troll with serious issues. He needs counselling to help him come to terms with what has been an intensely difficult period in his life.

His use to cycling journalism has passed IMHO.

Your first para has more than a kernel of truth.

Your second is shabby, every which way.

Your conclusion doesn't follow on from your premises, actually.

Apart from that, it sounds to me like Kimmage is really here just a conduit for what the Martin family wants to say, and what they have to say sounds to me, to be laden with ''subtext and ulterior motive''...

''agenda,... at the end of the day, Stephen is only my brother, and I don't ever see him as anything other than that."

A little weird, I think, given the context.

Dan: "I think it's a moral-fibre thing . . . I mean, we were talking about this the other day but in every report now it says, 'They are not doping because the testing is so good'. But the cultural aspect is very much overlooked. I don't dope for the same reason that I don't walk out of a shop with stuff without paying. I've never stolen anything in my life. I've never cheated in an exam. Why would I take drugs?"

Neil: "The improvements in anti-doping has made it so he can win now, the playing field is levelling out, but it's not the reason why he doesn't dope, it's who he is."

Maria: "It's who we are."

Who we are, as opposed to some people we know but don't have much to do with ?

That is a family which to my ears, is uber-controlled. To a curious degree.

Kimmage is a great writer, and I don't really care what drives him on.

irishpeloton

riparooo wrote: »

This article is interesting but I suspect the Martins in particular are seething. The interview went on for over two hours and covered all the obvious bits. Then the piece focused in on how Neil career didn't develop with some blame being attributed to Stephen Roche and how Stephen Roche hasn't ever helped or given advice to Dan.

I seriously doubt when the interview was agreed to that the Martins thought this would be the focus of a very long conversation with Kimmage.

I like Kimmage as a sports writer, think he is one of the best, but any Irish cyclist would be best to stay far far away from him.

This is just the sort of article that Nico or Dan didn't need in the run up to the TdF.

Doesn't look like it.

Dan Martin just posted this on Twitter:

Thanks to @PaulKimmage for this great article in yesterdays irish independent...

MPFG

irishpeloton wrote: »

Doesn't look like it.

Dan Martin just posted this on Twitter:

Gosh...maybe Dan Martin is reading boards.ie and felt the need to come to the defence of the article

If so , hello Dan and go for the win on 14th July....:D

ford2600

irishpeloton wrote: »

Doesn't look like it.

Dan Martin just posted this on Twitter:

It's hard to argue that Kimmage is not at least to some degree bitter. However, sports journalism and cycling in particular owe him a great debt. Anyone who has fought his fight who have to be a little bitter.

History will look kindly on him IMHO.

Kimmage and a few others have helped at huge personal cost to making cycling cleaner. Can anyone put a value on knowing that Dan Martin's victories are clean? Without Kimmage's fight it would be much harder for Martin and others.

This interview was fantastic. Very interesting family!

His full interview of Landis is the best interview by a country mile I've ever read.

joker77

MPFG wrote: »

Gosh...maybe Dan Martin is reading boards.ie and felt the need to come to the defence of the article

If so , hello Dan and go for the win on 14th July....:D

Huh?

More likely - Dan read the article, is happy with the content. Pretty straightforward stuff.

And from reading the article again - looking at who was in the room - it looks like the Martin family were leading Kimmage. Not the other way around.

All the Kimmage haters. Haters gonna hate.

RobFowl

I thought it was a very good and informative piece. It's rare to read something these days and feel you know someone better as a result but this article did that for me.
Always liked Dan Martin but now I feel he comes across as even more likable.
FTR his father has acted as a team manger for Irish teams on a number of occasions and has put a hell of a lot into the sport here.
Regarding the implied comments about Stephen Roche.
I think there's a tendancy to be a bit unfair towards Stephen Roche among many people (myself included). He's a driven successful ex-pro yet we seem to want him to be much more than that.
Personally I'd wish he was more open and forthcoming about the darker side of the sport. He isn't but that's his choice. He also seems not be involved in the sport (in Ireland) except when it involves business interests. Again that's something which is entirely understandable, we all need to make a living.
I think we want him to be more open/honest, less driven and more accessible. He's not and we seem to blame him for this rather than just accept him for who he is.

ashleey

"Personally I'd wish he was more open and forthcoming about the darker side of the sport. He isn't but that's his choice. He also seems not be involved in the sport (in Ireland) except when it involves business interests."

He supports and rides on the Leinster Loop and has always seemed pretty approachable on the times I've done it. (not being smart, just passing on the info)

He does live in France, so maybe he has severed most of his ties?

Tombo2001

RobFowl wrote: »

Regarding the implied comments about Stephen Roche.
I think there's a tendancy to be a bit unfair towards Stephen Roche among many people (myself included). He's a driven successful ex-pro yet we seem to want him to be much more than that.
Personally I'd wish he was more open and forthcoming about the darker side of the sport. He isn't but that's his choice. .

Brings to mind a conversation I had with a senior colleague at work when we were hiring someone a few years ago....

He said, (about the candidate) it doesnt really matter if he's a nice guy or not, in fact its probably better if he's not.

Point being: S Roche was a world champion, best in the world at what he did, for one glorious year......why do people need him to be a nice bloke too? Is it not enough that he was the best at what he did?

torturedsoul

BryanL wrote: »

I thought the Karma was that cycling took Neil Martin in and spat him out, like it does with most who dream of being a Pro, but the karma now was the success of his son and the happiness it gives the family?

Bang on Bryan, thought it was pretty obvious myself.

Can say i am delighted that my kids, should I be blessed, will get their endurance from my wife.

Lumen

ashleey wrote: »

He does live in France, so maybe he has severed most of his ties?

There's a certain type of ex-pat (not specifically Irish) who doesn't look back after they've left their home country.

This can induce "he's turned his back on us" type slagging from those back home.

I think I've read some of this slagging in the past directed at Roche snr.

I'm not taking sides (don't care myself) just pointing it out and then ignoring it.

Harrybelafonte

I'm always happier when I find out a successful sports person is also a nice person. Means you don't have to **** on people to make it. Broke my heart when I found out Michael Jordan was a total prick. At least Charles Barkley tried to make up for his wrongs.

I also never got the bad mouthing of Stephen Roche, though at the same time, I'd rather he came out and explained his involvement in those darker times.

Charlie69

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Brings to mind a conversation I had with a senior colleague at work when we were hiring someone a few years ago....

He said, (about the candidate) it doesnt really matter if he's a nice guy or not, in fact its probably better if he's not.

Point being: S Roche was a world champion, best in the world at what he did, for one glorious year......why do people need him to be a nice bloke too? Is it not enough that he was the best at what he did?

No

leftism

http://www.independent.ie/sport/stephen-roche-dan-martin-can-challenge-for-tour-de-france-honours-29368031.html

The timing of Roche's comments today cannot be coincidental... Just saying...

Regarding the Kimmage piece; anyone under the impression that he somehow manipulated the Martin's words in order to climb back on top his soap-box is clearly missing the point. Dan Martin has always been extremely professional and controlled in his response to interviews, to the point where i've found it hard to warm to him. There is no way that the Martin family sat down with Kimmage for 2 hours without a clear expectation of what they wanted publically aired.

I have to say, Dan and his parents come across as genuinely nice and honest folks from that interview. Glad i got to read this!