Is anything really for sale? (old thread)

molloyda

My wife and I were fortunate enough to buy our first house in the pre-boom years in 1999. Thankfully we're also now in a position where we're able to size up to a larger house to fit the growing family (3 Bed Semi -> 4/5 Bed Detached preference) around the north side of Dublin county.

The sale of our current house has been surprisingly easy - probably looking at closing in the next week or two, for around or above the asking price.

However, finding a property has not been easy. Here is the outcome so far:

1) First interested property (the one which encouraged us to move): has been on the market for 18 months, thought it a great opportunity. After weeks of getting avoided by the estate agent, I approached the vendor.... house was never for sale.... he admitted it's basically keeping the banks happy.

2) Second interested property (same estate): removed "temporarily" after bids made close to asking price

3) Third interested property (same estate): keeps moving goalposts upwards... won't sell for seemingly any price.

4) New homes in Ashbourne: four of them advertised on myhome/daft/well known estate agent. Estate agent confirmed that they were all already sold but would have more in a year (handily taking names from people attracted to the sale agreed ones)

5) Viewed a house two weeks ago: seemed legit but wasn't interested. No idea what would have happened under a bid scenario.

6) Viewing a house yesterday: withdrawn from market on interest shown.

That's 7 out of 8 houses advertised on MyHome/Daft/Estate windows that are not actually for sale.

I'd conservatively estimate that at least 50-70% of all homes advertised in 400k region in my area are simply there to hold off banks.

I can fully appreciate the circumstances that people are in (if these houses are 400k now, they were possibly 800k+ when they bought) and that in nearly all cases these are family homes.

However, it is making purchasing of property an absolute nightmare currently. Was wondering are other people experiencing the same scenarios?

jay0109

have heard tales of this on the propertypin.
And the prices of some places I've seen on myhome would tell me the gaffs are'nt really for sale either

We need the repossessions to start asap to cut out so much of the charade that still exists in the Irish property sector. Sooner we reach the real market bottom, the sooner we start a real recovery in this country

Skerries

so you actively want people thrown out of their homes through no fault of their own?

desertcircus

Skerries wrote: »

so you actively want people thrown out of their homes through no fault of their own?

If someone's facing repossession, it's because they're far behind on their mortgage. Not paying for the house you're living in does not count as "no fault of your own". I have sympathy for people who are genuinely screwed, but it looks as though a lot of the potential repossessions are currently in the hands of people who are living off more than I am and artificially slowing the market's return to normality, making sure I still have to rent in order to live anywhere near Dublin.

ted1

Skerries wrote: »

so you actively want people thrown out of their homes through no fault of their own?

Not paying for them is a good reason and this is purely down to the home owner.

Iton take out a loan, agree tes and conditions and pay the agreed amount.

How is not the home owners responsibilty ?

hfallada

You should be entitled to a place to live. However that doesn't to be the house you haven't made a repayment on in over a year. In the uk and USA if you fall behind on your mortgage it's repossessed. This stop strategic defaulting and people who are waiting for debt write off.

I think a lot of people are holding off selling as no one wants to sell at the bottom of the market.

cookie1977

hfallada wrote: »

You should be entitled to a place to live. However that doesn't to be the house you haven't made a repayment on in over a year. In the uk and USA if you fall behind on your mortgage it's repossessed. This stop strategic defaulting and people who are waiting for debt write off.

I think a lot of people are holding off selling as no one wants to sell at the bottom of the market.

The US is not a fair comparison as they have non recourse mortgages. Even in many other countries Europe they don't chase after the mortgage debt following eviction/repossession.

Galego

molloyda wrote: »

I'd conservatively estimate that at least 50-70% of all homes advertised in 400k region in my area are simply there to hold off banks.
Was wondering are other people experiencing the same scenarios?

Yes, same experience but with a lower budget ourselves (under 300k eur) and also in Dublin north and south co. Meath.

Some cases are:

1- just advertised for sale to get the banks of their backs,
2- sellers do not want to sell "at bottom prices" and asking prices are unrealistic,
3- sellers realise that they cannot find anything decent themselves to buy.

Pretty depressing to be honest but keep going, do not give up!

molloyda

Have no plans in giving up.... but we're probably going to sit back and rent for a while until things sort themselves out.

Selling our house has been surprisingly easy - 3 bed semi 210kish with 3 bidders at the minute. Maybe many of them had similar experiences as we're having and are happy to find a "real sale".

I can't understand why there's no larger house building going on out there...there's a site with planning permission for 18 4-5 detached houses in Rolestown for less than a million.... surely some builder can recognise a gap in the market at 45k per site.

Either way - it's quite possible that we're finally experiencing a dead cat bounce in the property market... very good thread about that here http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=56320&sid=240e3ecaabca65b545ff22a95a82d7d9

Villa05

hfallada wrote: »

You should be entitled to a place to live. However that doesn't to be the house you haven't made a repayment on in over a year. In the uk and USA if you fall behind on your mortgage it's repossessed. This stop strategic defaulting and people who are waiting for debt write off.

I think a lot of people are holding off selling as no one wants to sell at the bottom of the market.

We are not at the bottom, maybe a dead cat bounce or temporary stabilisation

One in four mortgages in trouble, Long term arrears growth of 11.9%
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/truly-shocking-as-one-in-four-now-unable-to-pay-their-mortgage-29364027.html

Irish Banks and Government may not want to repossess but the foreign banks have no issue with it (Ulster will proceed with 1,000 repossessions once the new laws are in place) and the IMF are putting pressure on to get it sorted in the Irish Banks

The mask is coming off this illusion of the economy recovering, It would seem that it is down to poor statistics
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/22/business/economy/irelands-turnaround-may-not-be-so-rosy.html?smid=tw-share&_r=1&

All in all everything is pointing to another catastrophic event similar to 2008 that will start the 2nd leg of the collapse.

khards

Villa05 wrote: »

All in all everything is pointing to another catastrophic event similar to 2008 that will start the 2nd leg of the collapse.

Agreed, that there are few cash buyers chasing fewer properties causing pressure in some locations that you couldn't give away rubbish in.

The coming collapse will bve a depositor bail in event so if you have >€100k in the bank, ensure that it is spread not only between different banks, but different countries.

TheDriver

I am finding the same and EAs don't like when I ask "is it actually for sale" but the amount of stuff that disappears off the market without selling.
I don't know about the falling further because I have noticed in towns that good mature type estates and houses are making good money (nothing silly, just proper price) whereas badly kept/build estates and still falling. 3 bed semis and apts are dropping all the time but try finding well planned, decent detached though. Also a lot of houses were badly designed or else putting a lovely house into the back corner beside apartments, no wonder they don't sell.

jay0109

Skerries wrote: »

so you actively want people thrown out of their homes through no fault of their own?

ah, the 'through no fault of their own' line....copyrighted by David Hall I think:rolleyes:

It's not the fault of the people who did'nt take out huge mortgages and started off with small houses. Or those who did'nt add in a Beamer, fancy holiday, or cost of an interior designer to their mortgage. Or those who did'nt leverage to the hilt to buy several BTL's on the back of equity in the family home etc etc etc

We're all adults...if you took out a mortgage and you can no longer pay it, you should lose the house(s) involved.
Nobody will be homeless...no shame in renting. We've all done it at some stage . If you can't afford the rent, the taxpayer will cover it (whats new there).

Free up property for those looking and who can afford to buy, upgrade etc. That's how it's supposed to work and thats the only way we'll get back to normal in this country....or we can continue as a zombie nation for another 20 years on top of the past 6 wasted years

L1011

Hadn't noticed much of this around here, until today when I noticed that a house that I was told would not be accepting offers below asking price (at least 10k overpriced at the time) last year has now had its asking hiked by 40k.

Add to that that it still has sitting tenants and I smell an under water BTL mortgage and a pretence of an attempted sale.

khards

MYOB wrote: »

Hadn't noticed much of this around here, until today when I noticed that a house that I was told would not be accepting offers below asking price (at least 10k overpriced at the time) last year has now had its asking hiked by 40k.

Add to that that it still has sitting tenants and I smell an under water BTL mortgage and a pretence of an attempted sale.

And I bet the yield based on the current rent is laughable and €10k's of repairs and modernizations are needed.

Sounds like a dreamer to me - I wish daft had a rating/feedback feature for each property so that you could warn everyone about the time wasters.

L1011

khards wrote: »

And I bet the yield based on the current rent is laughable and €10k's of repairs and modernizations are needed.

Sounds like a dreamer to me - I wish daft had a rating/feedback feature for each property so that you could warn everyone about the time wasters.

Yield would have been about 7% on the old price and about 5% now, mental arithmetic figures at the end of a weekend so may not be accurate. I'd want to put about 15k in the house if paying for labour. Still no BER on the ad houses in the same estate fully modernised are no higher than a C3, so I'd hazard a guess at a D or E.

Houses must be one of the few things where the seller can be the timewaster.

molloyda

Would be very useful indeed - but probably open to all sort of legal actions.

gaius c

MYOB wrote: »

Yield would have been about 7% on the old price and about 5% now, mental arithmetic figures at the end of a weekend so may not be accurate. I'd want to put about 15k in the house if paying for labour. Still no BER on the ad houses in the same estate fully modernised are no higher than a C3, so I'd hazard a guess at a D or E.

Houses must be one of the few things where the seller can be the timewaster.

They can be but there's plenty of buyer timewasters as well.

AlanG

molloyda wrote: »

I'd conservatively estimate that at least 50-70% of all homes advertised in 400k region in my area are simply there to hold off banks.

I have had the same experience and would say that over 50% of houses on the market are just to keep banks happy. Often it’s landlords pocketing rent while not paying the mortgage. Drag out things by pretending to sell. I no longer view anything where the tenants are still there as vendor is not serious.

Also a number of homeowners seem to be doing the same – pretending to sell but not willing to take offers so they can then negotiate with the bank to get the taxpayer to fund their lifestyles by giving them a big debt write down rather than them having to move to a more affordable house.

gaius c

Next time you ring up about a house, bear in mind that the owner might not even know their house is "for sale"!

Richard Dower

I not clued up on this practice....but why are they putting houses up for sale when they really dont want to sell them?

Is it because they are in arrears on the mortgage

AlanG wrote: »

I have had the same experience and would say that over 50% of houses on the market are just to keep banks happy. Often it’s landlords pocketing rent while not paying the mortgage. Drag out things by pretending to sell. I no longer view anything where the tenants are still there as vendor is not serious.

Also a number of homeowners seem to be doing the same – pretending to sell but not willing to take offers so they can then negotiate with the bank to get the taxpayer to fund their lifestyles by giving them a big debt write down rather than them having to move to a more affordable house.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Skerries wrote: »

so you actively want people thrown out of their homes through no fault of their own?

Are you having a giraffe?

Through no fault of their own... what a terrible statement.

camphor

molloyda wrote: »

".

I can't understand why there's no larger house building going on out there..

Really?

molloyda wrote: »

".

.there's a site with planning permission for 18 4-5 detached houses in Rolestown for less than a million.... surely some builder can recognise a gap in the market at 45k per site.

What bank is going to finance any builder to buy the site, build 18 houses and hope that the market is still in good enough condition for the houses to sell and return a profit?

What solicitor is going to allow his client to sign an unconditional purchase contract to buy at the finished price so the builder can get finance?

Too many builders are broke, their credit rating shot to pieces. The banks do not have funds to finance spec builders. Builders providers are not providing credit to the same builders. There is no building and increasing household formation. The result is going to be a shortage of property in the
main cities.

gaius c

Richard Dower wrote: »

I not clued up on this practice....but why are they putting houses up for sale when they really dont want to sell them?

Is it because they are in arrears on the mortgage

Make it look like they have property to sell on their books and draw the punters in. Tell them that one is gone and push them towards another property that is actually for sale.

riclad

You might look at houses that are empty ,no tenants living there ,
or owner has passed away.Probate sale.
You can tell by looking at the photos on myhome ,daft.ie if house is empty.
I,VE seen 3 or 4 houses sold in one small estate in the last 2 years.

I,VE sympathy for some people, eg say loan is 200k,
house is now worth 100k.
INCOME has gone down alot ,taxes have gone up.
They are struggling to pay the mortgage,
maybe paying 70 per cent of the full mortgage,
if the bank takes back the house , they,ll probably get 95k for it after paying legal fees .
I was reading article in the independent , IT says banks are reluctant to lend to any
builder even in areas, where there,s a shortage of houses for sale.
And Theres a gauranteed profit to be made.
NEW home loans are 10 per cent of boom time levels.

MANY owners are on just paying the interest on the mortgage,
eg 50 per cent of normal payment ,
I WOULD not JUDGE that as ripping off the taxpayer,
if thats all they can afford.

molloyda

Since this thread has had a new lease of life - I'll give an update.

Throughout the course of buying we expressed interest in maybe 15 properties in the north Dublin county (350-450k region) area. About 5 of these appeared to be actually for sale. The others manifested themselves as "dodgy" by any of the following:
- Estate agents being elusive about arranging viewings
- People putting houses for sale and going "on holidays" immediately during what is normally the "momentum phase" (top of Daft/myHome etc./Recently Added etc.)
- Estate Agents/Sellers not responding to bids and requiring constant hounding
- Houses being taken off the market at advanced stages for 'work', 'rennovations' etc.
- Sellers looking for crazy money and moving upwards on what they want as bids came in.

However, we found a property but not in our original area of choice. We ended up finding a property in the outskirts of Meath. This one was a repossessed buy-to-let property in need of a little work. In Meath there seemed to be a much higher incidence of "real property" for sale. However, I do know a few people who were looking into sites and there's all sorts of family land messing around going on there.

Not at contracts phase yet, but deposit is down so hoping all goes well. There is some guilt associated with buying a repossessed house, but when it's not a primary residence it seems reasonable enough.

molloyda

camphor wrote: »

Really?
What bank is going to finance any builder to buy the site, build 18 houses and hope that the market is still in good enough condition for the houses to sell and return a profit?

You are right in pretty much everything you said. But the point I was making was that the market IS in good enough condition (in some areas) for the houses to sell and return a profit.

In the area, I went to a few "first" viewings and was one of ~15 sets of viewers turning up on a night to view the property (425k region) down the road from where that site is (2-3 miles away).

My own house in Swords sold in three weeks with four bidders involved to the end. Another two houses in the same estate sold in similar timeframes.

It probably seems positively unreal to some people, but in certain areas there is a serious shortage of certain categories of houses. This is manifesting itself around many areas of Dublin (and not in many other places).

cookie1977

molloyda wrote: »

Since this thread has had a new lease of life - I'll give an update.

Throughout the course of buying we expressed interest in maybe 15 properties in the north Dublin county (350-450k region) area. About 5 of these appeared to be actually for sale. The others manifested themselves as "dodgy" by any of the following:
- Estate agents being elusive about arranging viewings
- People putting houses for sale and going "on holidays" immediately during what is normally the "momentum phase" (top of Daft/myHome etc./Recently Added etc.)
- Estate Agents/Sellers not responding to bids and requiring constant hounding
- Houses being taken off the market at advanced stages for 'work', 'rennovations' etc.
- Sellers looking for crazy money and moving upwards on what they want as bids came in.

However, we found a property but not in our original area of choice. We ended up finding a property in the outskirts of Meath. This one was a repossessed buy-to-let property in need of a little work. In Meath there seemed to be a much higher incidence of "real property" for sale. However, I do know a few people who were looking into sites and there's all sorts of family land messing around going on there.

Not at contracts phase yet, but deposit is down so hoping all goes well. There is some guilt associated with buying a repossessed house, but when it's not a primary residence it seems reasonable enough.

Best of luck with it all and enjoy the new home.

camphor

molloyda wrote: »

You are right in pretty much everything you said. But the point I was making was that the market IS in good enough condition (in some areas) for the houses to sell and return a profit.

Who said it wasn't? It is a bit like being stranded on a rocky island with only grass on it and saying someone on this island could build a ship and
make a profit from selling fish. Fat lot of good that is when there is nothing to build s ship from.
What I am saying is that there are no funds available for investment in order to make the profit.

molloyda

cookie1977 wrote: »

Best of luck with it all and enjoy the new home.

Thanks very much - much appreciated.

Supercell

There definitely seems to be a change in the market.

We bought near the end of 2011 and while we did encounter one house we really liked but was told when we bid on it that the owner decided not to sell, that the overall market was of people genuinely selling.
There was shenanigans with estate agents, one house off Rochestown Avenue in Deansgrange that we really wanted to see was never ever available to see. The estate agent didn't reply to emails, when we called him he was busy that week and said to call back. When we eventually got hold of him the second time we were told the owners couldn't arrange a showing any time soon. Six months later it sold for well under what we could have paid for it, very frustrating.

When we bought our house the agent said to us just make a bid , any bid and he would put it to the sellers. After a fair bit of haggling (our initial bid was a bit cheeky) we closed.

Fast forward on to 2013 and my brother is trying to buy a house in around the same price range the OP is talking about , but in D8 and every time he sees a house he is getting told there are bids on it already above the asking. Now D8 is not D4 or Dalkey so we suspect there is some shenanigans going on there too. I really wonder if the market is totally utterly rigged right now and its the rare lucky ones that are finding a genuine seller.

gmisk

Supercell wrote: »

Fast forward on to 2013 and my brother is trying to buy a house in around the same price range the OP is talking about , but in D8 and every time he sees a house he is getting told there are bids on it already above the asking. Now D8 is not D4 or Dalkey so we suspect there is some shenanigans going on there too. I really wonder if the market is totally utterly rigged right now and its the rare lucky ones that are finding a genuine seller.

I would say its genuine to be honest, I know that 11 people were bidding on a house in inchicore that I had a quick look at about 6 months ago, it was on at 160 and went for 185.
There is a huge lack of supply in a lot of areas, so people seem to be getting into bidding wars for anything anyway decent.

molloyda

molloyda wrote: »

Since this thread has had a new lease of life - I'll give an update.

Throughout the course of buying we expressed interest in maybe 15 properties in the north Dublin county (350-450k region) area. About 5 of these appeared to be actually for sale. The others manifested themselves as "dodgy" by any of the following:
- Estate agents being elusive about arranging viewings
- People putting houses for sale and going "on holidays" immediately during what is normally the "momentum phase" (top of Daft/myHome etc./Recently Added etc.)
- Estate Agents/Sellers not responding to bids and requiring constant hounding
- Houses being taken off the market at advanced stages for 'work', 'rennovations' etc.
- Sellers looking for crazy money and moving upwards on what they want as bids came in.

However, we found a property but not in our original area of choice. We ended up finding a property in the outskirts of Meath. This one was a repossessed buy-to-let property in need of a little work. In Meath there seemed to be a much higher incidence of "real property" for sale. However, I do know a few people who were looking into sites and there's all sorts of family land messing around going on there.

Not at contracts phase yet, but deposit is down so hoping all goes well. There is some guilt associated with buying a repossessed house, but when it's not a primary residence it seems reasonable enough.

Wish I'd read this thread before wasting weeks chasing an agent about a house that is patently not for sale. Your first three points in particular - being elusive about viewings, going on holiday right after posting the ad on MyHome, having to hound the agent - are all too familiar.

And having experienced this first-hand and moaned about it to friends/family, it turns out to be pretty common. My sister went to bid on a house only for the agent to say they weren't taking offers - 'just need to be seen to have it on the market'. And a friend went sale agreed only for the process to drag on and on until they got fed up.

gaius c

Say thank you for the link. ;-)

It's a thread that got overlooked and the bulls tend to ignore the massive amount of supply-side restriction that is going on but it's there and it cannot continue indefinitely.

gaius c

gaius c wrote: »

Say thank you for the link. ;-)

It's a thread that got overlooked and the bulls tend to ignore the massive amount of supply-side restriction that is going on but it's there and it cannot continue indefinitely.

Humble thanks gaius for kindly directing me here from thepropertypin

One thing that I don't get is why estate agents knowingly facilitate people who want to list their houses for sale but do not want to sell.

If agents work on a commission basis, it's just pure hassle to have to field calls from people who want to view a house that you're not really expecting to sell. Or even to repeatedly show a property that you know the owner is reluctant to part with.

Anyone any ideas on this?

gaius c

Deleted User wrote: »

One thing that I don't get is why estate agents knowingly facilitate people who want to list their houses for sale but do not want to sell.

If agents work on a commission basis, it's just pure hassle to have to field calls from people who want to view a house that you're not really expecting to sell. Or even to repeatedly show a property that you know the owner is reluctant to part with.

Anyone any ideas on this?

It's better to have it on their books than a rival agent's.

gaius c

gaius c wrote: »

It's better to have it on their books than a rival agent's.

Just in terms of attracting other houses that really are for sale? I suppose but it must be a pain for them. Maybe I'm just thinking of how stressful I'd find it to be giving half a dozen people the runaround - it's probably something you get used to if that's your job.

riclad

Maybe it looks good to have lots of houses for sale,on the website
even if some are NOT really for sale.

gaius c

Deleted User wrote: »

Just in terms of attracting other houses that really are for sale? I suppose but it must be a pain for them. Maybe I'm just thinking of how stressful I'd find it to be giving half a dozen people the runaround - it's probably something you get used to if that's your job.

Because on the off chance that it does actually sell, it's your sale and not your competitors.

I was complaining here last year about a house that had come on and off the market only for the agent to eventually concede that it was never truly for sale. Taking her at her word, I think she believed it would be sold ('the bank is making him sell') but clearly the owner had no intention of doing anything more than getting the bank off his case for a few months.

Totally separately, but 1/4 mile down the road, another house that was on the market in 2013 at an unrealistic price reappeared last summer at an even higher price (+35k). I tried to arrange a viewing and it was exactly like the other house - and like the experience of others on this thread: delays, holidays, weird excuses about not having a spare key for the agent...

Followed up with the agent a few times. Eventually he told me in exasperation that he was pulling his hair out as the owner had just informed him that he decided to 'sell it to the HSE' for 15k above the asking.

The agent bluntly said this just didn't add up. He wasn't aware that that HSE was in the market and paying over the odds directly to the seller i.e. not engaging with the agent who had no bids because they had been unable to show it. Apologies to the HSE for dragging their name into this - all evidence suggests this was a total fabrication by the seller.

It's about nine months on now and the house never appeared in the property register. I passed it the other day and the same van that was there last year is still in the driveway. House did not sell; was never for sale.

I wasn't in love with this house or anything but it's very frustrating to be messed around like this. Even makes me feel sorry for estate agents!

When I see Daft alerts arrive in my inbox and I recognise the house from a previous ad, I am now immediately suspicious. In some cases they are houses where a would-be buyer couldn't come up with the cash but in others they are owners with money/bank troubles who have no intention of selling.

riclad

i know someone who could not afford to puy the mortgage,
put house up for sale ,
recieved offer of 90k.
bank said that offer is not enough would not let sale go thru.
house was investment property.
no one living there .
House was empty for 2 years .
after 2 years house was sold for 90k.
You could simply bid on houses ,that have no mortgage,
ie the seller owns the house ,100 per cent.
ASK the agent is there a mortgage on the house,
if seller lived there for 20 plus years the house is likely to be mortgage free.

gaius c

riclad wrote: »

i know someone who could not afford to puy the mortgage,
put house up for sale ,
recieved offer of 90k.
bank said that offer is not enough would not let sale go thru.
house was investment property.
no one living there .
House was empty for 2 years .
after 2 years house was sold for 90k.
You could simply bid on houses ,that have no mortgage,
ie the seller owns the house ,100 per cent.
ASK the agent is there a mortgage on the house,
if seller lived there for 20 plus years the house is likely to be mortgage free.

Unfortunately not. They could have re-mortgaged to fill their boots with Bulgarian apartments!

daUbiq

Couldn't we contact the main mortgage providers to tell them a particular house is not actually up for sale when we come across one of these scam sellers.. They are committing fraud, aren't they, if they tell the bank they are selling the house?

audi12

Skerries wrote: »

so you actively want people thrown out of their homes through no fault of their own?

if you cant pay for a house you should not be in end of some many bloddy socalists in this country if they ran the banks no one would pay anything back

MarkAnthony

Deleted User wrote: »

Even makes me feel sorry for estate agents!

Steady on there!

MarkAnthony

audi12 wrote: »

if you cant pay for a house you should not be in end of some many bloddy socalists in this country if they ran the banks no one would pay anything back

Thanks for requoting that, it's not that it was sufficiently dealt with almost a year ago when it was posted.

audi12

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Thanks for requoting that, it's not that it was sufficiently dealt with almost a year ago when it was posted.

Needs to be said again as them socialist left wing hippies are still out in force

daUbiq

audi12 wrote: »

Needs to be said again as them socialist left wing hippies are still out in force

The people advocating not paying are not socialists, they are simply idiots, many of them are actually of a right wing leaning.

audi12

daUbiq wrote: »

The people advocating not paying are not socialists, they are simply idiots, many of them are actually of a right wing leaning.

Idiots is not a strong enough word for them

daUbiq

audi12 wrote: »

Idiots is not a strong enough word for them

Indeed, I'm trying to keep my posts reasonable! :P