Has Irelands Internet data been tapped by GCHQ and the NSA?

KyussBishop

New revelations by Edward Snowden, show that the UK is participating in helping the NSA tap international fiber connections:

GCHQ taps fibre-optic cables for secret access to world's communications
Exclusive: British spy agency collects and stores vast quantities of global email messages, Facebook posts, internet histories and calls, and shares them with NSA, latest documents from Edward Snowden reveal

Britain's spy agency GCHQ has secretly gained access to the network of cables which carry the world's phone calls and internet traffic and has started to process vast streams of sensitive personal information which it is sharing with its American partner, the National Security Agency (NSA).

The sheer scale of the agency's ambition is reflected in the titles of its two principal components: Mastering the Internet and Global Telecoms Exploitation, aimed at scooping up as much online and telephone traffic as possible. This is all being carried out without any form of public acknowledgement or debate.

One key innovation has been GCHQ's ability to tap into and store huge volumes of data drawn from fibre-optic cables for up to 30 days so that it can be sifted and analysed. That operation, codenamed Tempora, has been running for some 18 months.

GCHQ and the NSA are consequently able to access and process vast quantities of communications between entirely innocent people, as well as targeted suspects.

This includes recordings of phone calls, the content of email messages, entries on Facebook and the history of any internet user's access to websites – all of which is deemed legal, even though the warrant system was supposed to limit interception to a specified range of targets.

The existence of the programme has been disclosed in documents shown to the Guardian by the NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden as part of his attempt to expose what he has called "the largest programme of suspicionless surveillance in human history".

"It's not just a US problem. The UK has a huge dog in this fight," Snowden told the Guardian. "They [GCHQ] are worse than the US."
...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jun/21/gchq-cables-secret-world-communications-nsa

This is huge. In my view probably Snowdens most important revelation yet.

Since a lot of Irish traffic is routed through the UK, does this effectively mean Irelands Internet traffic is being tapped as well? (it would seem that way to me, maybe some with more technical knowledge of Irelands fiber networks would know better)

hfallada

I seriously doubt it. Any company that is foreign owned operating in the us wasn't monitored. T mobile is owned by deutsche Telekom and they didn't pass on info in the us. Likewise I think Verizon maybe brought by Japanese investors in a few weeks and will no longer pass on us data to the authorities if it does.

Why do people care if data is passed on. Your one computer is only part of several billion online. Unless your a terrorist their is nothing to worry about. Although I think the us should focus more on their **** crumbling infastructure than potential terrorist attacks as their collapsing bridges and crap roads cost lives

KyussBishop

Yes but the international fibers are tapped by the UK, and if most of Irelands traffic routes through there, then its easy to tap.

There is loads to worry about; the sheer scale of this completely ends the security of online privacy and anonymity.

KyussBishop

Ya from what I can tell pretty much all of Irelands traffic routes through either the UK or the US (with the only other potential endpoint being Canada, which is likely a very small fraction of data if anything), both of which have shown their complete willingness to tap fibers and engage in massive spying.

hfallada

hfallada wrote: »

I seriously doubt it. Any company that is foreign owned operating in the us wasn't monitored. T mobile is owned by deutsche Telekom and they didn't pass on info in the us. Likewise I think Verizon maybe brought by Japanese investors in a few weeks and will no longer pass on us data to the authorities if it does.

Why do people care if data is passed on. Your one computer is only part of several billion online. Unless your a terrorist their is nothing to worry about. Although I think the us should focus more on their **** crumbling infastructure than potential terrorist attacks as their collapsing bridges and crap roads cost lives

We should always care.
The right to privacy goes well, well beyond "nothing to hide".
http://chronicle.com/article/Why-Privacy-Matters-Even-if/127461/

Fratton Fred

I though it was the other way around, the most UK data is routed through Ireland to the US.

Not that it matters, I expect the British, American, French, Russian, Chinese and Japanese are reading all our emails anyway.

oscarBravo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I though it was the other way around, the most UK data is routed through Ireland to the US.

Not yet, although that could change in the next year or two.

tfitzgerald

I would be surprised if we have not been tapped into. As far as America is concerned we are all potential enemy's .

Manach

I would agree with the OP's ascertain that this is more than possible. It breaches if proven international convention rights to privacy by such a disproportionate net trawl. However as a matter of practicality, there is little enough we can do about it and our own governments powers on obtaining information on citizens and the state's less than enthusasitc embrace of the FoI act put this in context.

RandomName2

hfallada wrote: »

I seriously doubt it. Any company that is foreign owned operating in the us wasn't monitored. T mobile is owned by deutsche Telekom and they didn't pass on info in the us. Likewise I think Verizon maybe brought by Japanese investors in a few weeks and will no longer pass on us data to the authorities if it does.

Why do people care if data is passed on. Your one computer is only part of several billion online. Unless your a terrorist their is nothing to worry about. Although I think the us should focus more on their **** crumbling infastructure than potential terrorist attacks as their collapsing bridges and crap roads cost lives

Like the recent phone tapping scandal in the UK had nothing to do with security, but rather the media illegally attempting to gain juicy gossip for the purposes of publishing.

Knowledge is a type of currency these days; not to mention a basis for power.

SpaceTime

It depends where your data is routed and which carrier you're using.

Carriers also have umpteen different routes.

Irish - US traffic generally routes directly but other destinations tend to go through the UK, NL, FR etc depending on the routing.

You can rest assured that it's quite likely snooped upon by various intelligence agencies.

Simplest way of checking how your data is routes is to try Trace Route on your computer.

On Windows go to a DOS prompt and type tracert destination.com

On a Mac you can go to the utilities folder on the applications folder and open Network Utility and you've a nice GUI based access to all the usual Unix network utilities.

Or, open terminal and type traceroute destination.com

I think you basically cannot assume that your communications online are private and probably never really could either.

oscarBravo

SpaceTime wrote: »

I think you basically cannot assume that your communications online are private and probably never really could either.

This. If you want to communicate privately, encrypt end-to-end. This can be as simple as making sure the website you're connecting to uses the HTTPS protocol.

harney

I have vague memories of the UK tapping our faxes going into Europe years ago, so it wouldn't be a huge shock if they were scanning our data.

*Edit*

Just phone calls

http://m.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/may/31/northernireland.richardnortontaylor

junder

Think you will find any country with an intelligence orginization is tapping the republican data connections as they are with every other county. Everybody spying on everybody is the nature of the world we live in

Mr.Micro

hfallada wrote: »

I seriously doubt it. Any company that is foreign owned operating in the us wasn't monitored. T mobile is owned by deutsche Telekom and they didn't pass on info in the us. Likewise I think Verizon maybe brought by Japanese investors in a few weeks and will no longer pass on us data to the authorities if it does.

Why do people care if data is passed on. Your one computer is only part of several billion online. Unless your a terrorist their is nothing to worry about. Although I think the us should focus more on their **** crumbling infastructure than potential terrorist attacks as their collapsing bridges and crap roads cost lives

There are all sorts of data on the net from private personal emails to where people visit online and loads of other stuff. Mostly harmless and private. Companies and businesses also on the net where privacy is vital to keep an edge from competitors at home and abroad. So a third party accessing data that it can use as it will is unacceptable. A system is only as good as its integrity and can be compromised by individuals running it. So it does matter that data is passed on. Who gave the US power or permission to police us all as if we are drones and only it matters at the cost of all our privacy online and elsewhere.

amen

Why do people care if data is passed on. Your one computer is only part of several billion online. Unless your a terrorist their is nothing to worry abou

I assume you have no problem then with the state taking all of your postal mail, recording who you are sending mail to/receiving mail from, when you sent it and maybe reading the first few lines?

Jonny7

amen wrote: »

I assume you have no problem then with the state taking all of your postal mail, recording who you are sending mail to/receiving mail from, when you sent it and maybe reading the first few lines?

And CCTV monitors your every move in any city..

It's completely invasive, can be used for malicious purposes and it's "spying" on all of us.

On principle... it's worse?

SpaceTime

There's a massive temptation to trawl data like this simply 'because we can'.

I don't think that people have really understood just how easy it is and legislators are still sort if living in the 70s about the issue.

I think with very sensitive intellectual property, those networks simply shouldn't be Internet connected at all. We survived with isolated corporate networking and linked using private leased lines.

people are trusting the Internet with way, way too much information.

Between criminal hackers, spies, corporate espionage etc your data simply isn't safe.

These revelations are hardly a surprise but I think they might or the breaks on some companies' moves to ditching their own infrastructure in favour of cloud computing.

Walker34

While on the topic of NSA surveillence, what is the best way of making it as awkward as possible for these terrorists.....I use TOR and avoid Windows OS`s preferring Linux distros instead. I know they are probably hacked by the NSA as well, but without divulging too much.....what is the best defense against them.

Mr.Micro

Walker34 wrote: »

While on the topic of NSA surveillence, what is the best way of making it as awkward as possible for these terrorists.....I use TOR and avoid Windows OS`s preferring Linux distros instead. I know they are probably hacked by the NSA as well, but without divulging too much.....what is the best defense against them.

Probably for none of us to go on the net or use any device that
involves electronic transmissions. Even then we are probably under surveillance by satellite and GCHQ listening in on us. If man invented it then it can be cracked by others

dkane

I think it is shocking that the Irish government has made no comment as to its position regarding the mass interception of Internet data by both the NSA and GCHQ given that the vast majority of Ireland's international fibre connections are to the USA or UK.
Also media coverage in Ireland has been almost non-existent.

Fratton Fred

amen wrote: »

I assume you have no problem then with the state taking all of your postal mail, recording who you are sending mail to/receiving mail from, when you sent it and maybe reading the first few lines?

as opposed to Google reading all our internet communications and using the information to sell advertising?

dkane

Fratton Fred wrote: »

as opposed to Google reading all our internet communications and using the information to sell advertising?

The difference is that you have signed up to GMail. There is no cost for the product and in return they use your data to give you targeted ads.
This is their business model. If you are not happy to be a part of it you can choose to move to a different email provider. Same thing with search, they give it to you free in return for access to your search queries. If you don't like it use a different search company.

Also using your data to target ads is different than using your data to target drone strikes...

KyussBishop

dkane wrote: »

I think it is shocking that the Irish government has made no comment as to its position regarding the mass interception of Internet data by both the NSA and GCHQ given that the vast majority of Ireland's international fibre connections are to the USA or UK.
Also media coverage in Ireland has been almost non-existent.

It leads to the question: What are our own secret services doing, in this regard? What is to stop the Irish secret services (who we know very little about) from co-operating with the UK to eavesdrop.

We've seen with the NSA, that they can bypass a bunch of restrictions, by data collection happening offshore; is that in any way applicable to Ireland too?

Fratton Fred

dkane wrote: »

Also using your data to target ads is different than using your data to target drone strikes...

Ah, that explains the proliferation of drone strikes in Ireland then!

dkane

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ah, that explains the proliferation of drone strikes in Ireland then!

And here we are back to the "if you are not a terrorist you have nothing to hide" argument.

Arciphel

There is a lot of complexity involved in try to tap into data at the optical i.e. fiber optic level. Optical communication networks function by encoding electric data into the optical domain, modulating several data streams into sub-carriers and then propagating very short pulses of light down an optical fiber. At the other end, the data is demodulated, filtered and then converted back into the electrical domain.

You can't pick and choose what you take out of the stream, you would need to capture everything and then post-process it to pick out what you are looking for. I assume this is what the OP's post mentions, the real challenge here would be having a server or servers capable of dealing with the huge amounts of data and then storing and processing it. It's not like finding a needle in a haystack, it's like finding a needle in a river of needles which are all flooding past you at a hundred miles an hour.

A lot of the optical communication schemes use encoding methods which have forward error correction built in, and this is important. If you suddenly did find a way to break into the data in a fibre optic cable, this intrusion could easily be detected as the signal level in the network would fluctuate and the stream of data would become dispersed, either temporally (in time) or in phase or in signal level, and these fluctuations can be readily detected using run of the mill equipment.

What this all means is that this would be very, very difficult to do any of this without the implicit permission and co-operation of the owners of these networks. Unless there is some type of previously unseen quantum-type technology being used which can infiltrate these types of data streams undetected, but we are getting in conspiracy theory realms now. Although there are a lot of rumors that the US Navy have a modified submarine which can tap into undersea long-haul fiber-optic cables.

dkane

Atomicjuicer wrote: »

Enjoy your exposure. Privacy is dead and no one fought for it.

But do we have to accept that this is the case?
It is technically possible today to store all of this data. But deciding what is intercepted, what is actually stored and for how long are policy decisions.

A brave country would demand that there is discussion and debate about what is acceptable and what is not.
A brave country would stand up and say that the mass surveillance of it's citizens without any suspicion of any crime is a human rights violation.

Mr.Micro

dkane wrote: »

But do we have to accept that this is the case?
It is technically possible today to store all of this data. But deciding what is intercepted, what is actually stored and for how long are policy decisions.

A brave country would demand that there is discussion and debate about what is acceptable and what is not.
A brave country would stand up and say that the mass surveillance of it's citizens without any suspicion of any crime is a human rights violation.

Surveillance is usually covert, so I doubt that any debate or whatever would do any good, let alone stop the same. Its here to stay alas, whether we like it or not.

dkane

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Surveillance is usually covert, so I doubt that any debate or whatever would do any good, let alone stop the same. Its here to stay alas, whether we like it or not.

Targeted surveillance is usually covert, as in where you have a target who is suspected of a crime. Targeted surveillance also has due process in most countries, a court or judge gives permission for the surveillance taking into account some evidence of wrongdoing.

This is very different to mass surveillance of a population. There is no need for it to be covert, either you are collecting everything or you are not. CCTV cameras in cities are not covert, in fact they are usually very overt in order to act as a deterrent.

Fratton Fred

dkane wrote: »

And here we are back to the "if you are not a terrorist you have nothing to hide" argument.

It's not so much the nothing to hide argument, more an acceptance that anything sent electronically is not as private as some like to think.

Mr.Micro

dkane wrote: »

Targeted surveillance is usually covert, as in where you have a target who is suspected of a crime. Targeted surveillance also has due process in most countries, a court or judge gives permission for the surveillance taking into account some evidence of wrongdoing.

This is very different to mass surveillance of a population. There is no need for it to be covert, either you are collecting everything or you are not. CCTV cameras in cities are not covert, in fact they are usually very overt in order to act as a deterrent.

Yes indeed, but its a moot point. We do not see every camera that is watching us, many are hidden or in places disguised etc.

dkane

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yes indeed, but its a moot point. We do not see every camera that is watching us, many are hidden or in places disguised etc.

We may not be aware of the location of every CCTV camera but they are not usually disguised or hidden. The point is that it is public knowledge that CCTV systems exist and yet they are effective.

Similarly there is no requirement for an online mass surveillance system to be covert for it to be effective.
The primary reason for keeping such systems secret is to keep them out of the public debate.

KyussBishop

Arciphel wrote: »

There is a lot of complexity involved in try to tap into data at the optical i.e. fiber optic level. Optical communication networks function by encoding electric data into the optical domain, modulating several data streams into sub-carriers and then propagating very short pulses of light down an optical fiber. At the other end, the data is demodulated, filtered and then converted back into the electrical domain.

You can't pick and choose what you take out of the stream, you would need to capture everything and then post-process it to pick out what you are looking for. I assume this is what the OP's post mentions, the real challenge here would be having a server or servers capable of dealing with the huge amounts of data and then storing and processing it. It's not like finding a needle in a haystack, it's like finding a needle in a river of needles which are all flooding past you at a hundred miles an hour.

A lot of the optical communication schemes use encoding methods which have forward error correction built in, and this is important. If you suddenly did find a way to break into the data in a fibre optic cable, this intrusion could easily be detected as the signal level in the network would fluctuate and the stream of data would become dispersed, either temporally (in time) or in phase or in signal level, and these fluctuations can be readily detected using run of the mill equipment.

What this all means is that this would be very, very difficult to do any of this without the implicit permission and co-operation of the owners of these networks. Unless there is some type of previously unseen quantum-type technology being used which can infiltrate these types of data streams undetected, but we are getting in conspiracy theory realms now. Although there are a lot of rumors that the US Navy have a modified submarine which can tap into undersea long-haul fiber-optic cables.

It's pretty easy to create a splitter for fiber optic cables, that just duplicates all the traffic (no tampering needed, bar the physical splitter); this is what the NSA usually do, if I recall correctly.

Arciphel

Splitters are commonplace, yes, but they have insertion losses which can be detected when you measure the signal gain across the optical link - also, they disturb the overall gain spectrum and distort the constellation diagram.

Mr.Micro

dkane wrote: »

Similarly there is no requirement for an online mass surveillance system to be covert for it to be effective.
The primary reason for keeping such systems secret is to keep them out of the public debate.

Well the US kept its Prism operation secret, which is a mass surveillance system, so I presume it has a reason other than debate. It was only recently revealed by US whistleblower Snowden as we all know. Ironically this man, a believer I would presume, in free speech, liberty and democracy, is now being pursued by the US, the land of the free, for the leaks.

Peanut

KyussBishop wrote: »

It leads to the question: What are our own secret services doing, in this regard? What is to stop the Irish secret services (who we know very little about) from co-operating with the UK to eavesdrop.

We've seen with the NSA, that they can bypass a bunch of restrictions, by data collection happening offshore; is that in any way applicable to Ireland too?

I think this is the more interesting question.

No doubt any Irish network traffic routed via the UK/US is being collected as part of a comprehensive effort, the question is how much (if any) domestic, internally routed data is being gathered and/or shared with overseas agencies.

dkane

Germany blasts UK over mass monitoring
Germany have come out and questioned the UK over the issue.
It really is poor form that the Irish government has still made no comment.

Walker34

Peanut wrote: »

I think this is the more interesting question.

No doubt any Irish network traffic routed via the UK/US is being collected as part of a comprehensive effort, the question is how much (if any) domestic, internally routed data is being gathered and/or shared with overseas agencies.

I do know that our SS act as observers and monitors of any targets of interest to Interpol/FBI/CIA. I was present at a conversation where one of the Irish SB noted that he recognised someone from a job they done in a Dublin hotel where they were observing the guys who had bumped of Sadat in Egypt. They were just watching to see who they were meeting with and what they were saying. They just passed on the information to the US as directed. A lot of "interesting" folks pass through here as its off the beaten track, and seen as a quiet backwater for such activity.

TimTim

Peanut wrote: »

I think this is the more interesting question.

No doubt any Irish network traffic routed via the UK/US is being collected as part of a comprehensive effort, the question is how much (if any) domestic, internally routed data is being gathered and/or shared with overseas agencies.

A significant portion of traffic leaving Ireland will go via the UK where it could presumably be picked up by GCHQ et all. You can see various submarine cable paths here.

KyussBishop wrote: »

It's pretty easy to create a splitter for fiber optic cables, that just duplicates all the traffic (no tampering needed, bar the physical splitter); this is what the NSA usually do, if I recall correctly.

The NSA allegedly built rooms in various telco buildings in the states and had splitters installed so they could sniff traffic passing through an ISP's core network. Search for room 614A for some of the details about it.

Getting co-operation like this would be considerably easier than trying to physically splice into a fiber cable without someone getting suspicious although I wouldn't put it past them for some less friendly targets.

Peanut

TimTim wrote: »

A significant portion of traffic leaving Ireland will go via the UK where it could presumably be picked up by GCHQ et all. You can see various submarine cable paths here.

Yes exactly, but the current revelations appear to leave something of a "blind spot" where traffic is routed solely between Irish networks, at least wrt. US/UK agencies. I'm sure there is a capability for the relevant Irish agencies to access this traffic in some form, the question is whether it's being collected wholesale in a similar fashion to the other interceptions. We don't seem to have any information on that.

TimTim

Peanut wrote: »

Yes exactly, but the current revelations appear to leave something of a "blind spot" where traffic is routed solely between Irish networks, at least wrt. US/UK agencies. I'm sure there is a capability for the relevant Irish agencies to access this traffic in some form, the question is whether it's being collected wholesale in a similar fashion to the other interceptions. We don't seem to have any information on that.

We have data retention laws in place since 2011, they are certainly recording some metadata about internet/phone activity. If it is as extensive as what is being done in the UK/US or is being shared with either agency is unknown. I haven't heard any leaks about what is going within ISPs.

oscarBravo

Peanut wrote: »

...the current revelations appear to leave something of a "blind spot" where traffic is routed solely between Irish networks...

Traffic routed between Irish networks mostly happens via INEX. I'd be fairly confident that INEX isn't participating in any wholesale espionage on behalf of either the Irish or any other government.

Some inter-network traffic goes through private peering arrangements, which generally take the form of a copper or fibre patch lead between two switches or routers. And still more goes via the UK or the US, in which case all bets are off.

Peanut

oscarBravo wrote: »

Traffic routed between Irish networks mostly happens via INEX. I'd be fairly confident that INEX isn't participating in any wholesale espionage on behalf of either the Irish or any other government.

I would have thought so too, before this, and some political sensitivities in sharing data with the UK also lean against it.

But the Ireland-US relationship is much harder to get a grasp of, and we've seen before with Sherlock etc. that there is an amount of behind the scenes lobbying that perhaps could best be described as "murky".

wandatowell

Does the NSA really care that Im on boards.ie while watching The Hunger Games at 05:07 on a saturday morning?

Peanut

wandatowell wrote: »

Does the NSA really care that Im on boards.ie while watching The Hunger Games at 05:07 on a saturday morning?

Probably not, but if you wanted to figure out the political persuasions of a large number of people, eavesdropping on personal session data (email addresses, unsecured logins, secured logins with SSL keys, cookies etc.) to establish identity and consolidating that with discussion board posts, browsing habits etc. is probably better than checking Facebook likes. I don't think this actually happens here, but it seems like a risk to consider when systems like these are given enough free rein.

Peanut

French Prism-like system snoops on internal French communications as well as foreign data

France has its own PRISM-like surveillance program, report suggests

I'm a bit suspicious of these reports mentioning "meta-data". Which could be anything from simply capturing the sender and receiver of an email, to an entire concise semantic markup of the message contents.

Son Of A Vidic

dkane wrote: »

I think it is shocking that the Irish government has made no comment as to its position regarding the mass interception of Internet data by both the NSA and GCHQ given that the vast majority of Ireland's international fibre connections are to the USA or UK.

Their job is to obey and facilitate if necessary, but never question.

dkane

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Their job is to obey and facilitate if necessary, but never question.

See I'd actually feel more comfortable if the Irish government came out and said that that actually was their position.
Instead of the position being "um... I don't know, explain to me what's going on again"

KyussBishop

Apparently the Irish Government has received a pre-emptive arrest warrant for Edward Snowden:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/us-sends-government-an-arrest-warrant-for-snowden-1.1453364

Perhaps the Irish Government should instead be demanding information, on the extent of US and UK wiretapping of our international fiber connections? (and offering Snowden asylum, for revealing such important information)

dkane

KyussBishop wrote: »

Perhaps the Irish Government should instead be demanding information, on the extent of US and UK wiretapping of our international fiber connections? (and offering Snowden asylum, for revealing such important information)

They are never going to offer Snowden asylum but they absolutely should be questioning the extent of US and UK wiretapping of our international fiber connections.