Referees.

mystic86

Hi,
When a referee is named for a big game, you often hear people commenting on the referee (usually) in a negative way, saying this referee is too fussy, that referee is too harsh on judging people off their feet in the tackle etc etc....

I'm just wondering, could somebody (or lots of ye combined) make a list of all major referees and comment on that referee, pointing out if they are good or bad, and the particular reasons that makes them so.

Please. : )

Hagz

...I guess I'll get the ball rolling and start with Alain Rolland. He used to be one of my favourite referees, but personally I find him to be too pedantic these days and very quick to pull out the cards.

Pudsy33

I like Nigel Owens. Always get his point across to the players, and isn't afraid to be humorous. Generally agree with most of his decisions, and I don't find he particularity whistle happy.

Don't like George Clancy as his interpretation of scrums and the breakdown bordeelines on insane.

Pudsy33

Also I dislike Steve Walsh, purely for his overuse of the word "mate"

durkadurka

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Also I dislike Steve Walsh, purely for his overuse of the word "mate"

Aye but what about his magnificent hair and beard?

.ak

I like Steve Walsh, never let's the occasion get to him, and frankly never comes across as a ref due to his lax attitude, including spats with players.

If any ref had a comedy movie made about them it'd be Stevie.

Tox56

.ak wrote: »

If any ref had a comedy movie made about them it'd be Stevie.

You seem to be forgetting the lad we had for the USA-Ireland match.. infuriating but great entertainment

.ak

Tox56 wrote: »

You seem to be forgetting the lad we had for the USA-Ireland match.. infuriating but great entertainment

I missed most of that cuz of the poor stream

But going by the thread he sounded a barrel of laughs

duckysauce

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Also I dislike Steve Walsh, purely for his overuse of the word "mate"

Shane Horgan is a great fan too , not a nice fellow.

duckysauce

Ref for the match tomorrow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsu6AjwQnyo

Stev_o

Joubert is decent. I quite like JP Doyle think he's a very clear ref who is very consistent.

Buer

duckysauce wrote: »

Shane Horgan is a great fan too , not a nice fellow.

Indeed. I'll always struggle to look beyond his actions at various times such as the Horgan incident, the bust up with England in 2003 and his drunken behaviour. How a referee that verbally abused a player and gets in an altercation with a coach can ever be trusted to be fully impartial during every game is beyond me.

He also appears to be madly in love with himself. No man milks his moment more when he knows the ref mic is being listened to or he's going to the TMO.

P_1

Stev_o wrote: »

Joubert is decent. I quite like JP Doyle think he's a very clear ref who is very consistent.

JP Doyle is a quality referee in my eyes. How did he end up in the English system though?

Jaco Piper (SP?) from South Africa is a decent enough ref too

Stev_o

P_1 wrote: »

JP Doyle is a quality referee in my eyes. How did he end up in the English system though?

Jaco Piper (SP?) from South Africa is a decent enough ref too

Must live over there. He worked the 7's circuit for a good few years and really established himself as a first class ref.

Honestly though I am not a fan of the big named ref's. A lot of them take reffing to far where it feels more like Team A vs Team B vs Ref.

.ak

I like McEnemey, he's a new ref in the Pro12. Think he's one to watch.

duckysauce

Buer wrote: »

Indeed. I'll always struggle to look beyond his actions at various times such as the Horgan incident, the bust up with England in 2003 and his drunken behaviour. How a referee that verbally abused a player and gets in an altercation with a coach can ever be trusted to be fully impartial during every game is beyond me.

He also appears to be madly in love with himself. No man milks his moment more when he knows the ref mic is being listened to or he's going to the TMO.

:pac::pac::pac:

Yep his beard stroking and short fixing once he is on camera is embarrassing, the Guy generally seems not nice -- he is an uber confident person, who is not suited to reffing rugby. Put that in the politest way I could :P

LeinsterDub

Nigel is too much of a home town ref. Love when we have him in the rds, dispare when we have him on the road

Crash

I was always sad when Joel Jutge retired. he screwed us once or twice but he was one of the ones who should have had a longer career.

edit: Just to add in, was seriously annoyed that Steve Walsh managed to work his way back up the system in the manner that he did. If anyone ever came across as viewing themselves as bigger than the game itself, it was Walsh in the mid 2000's. I think it was unfortunate that he started refereeing so early, he was obviously decent at it but having started so young, he let his ego grow waaaay too big.

Swiwi.

.ak wrote: »

I like Steve Walsh, never let's the occasion get to him, and frankly never comes across as a ref due to his lax attitude, including spats with players.

If any ref had a comedy movie made about them it'd be Stevie.

Judging by some of his actions, I'm not sure I'm so enamoured of Steve the man, but Steve the ref can be quite good. Like Pudsy33, though, his gratuitous use of the word "mate" really grates on my nerves - along with those friendly pats on the back he gives players.

19543261

Where's that one video, the classic one..

Edit: Yep.

Personally, I dont see why every single ref shouldnt be required to have their own affected persona. And lingo.

...maybe a funny run, too.

sydthebeat

I have no problem with refs in general


Except pointe....

I fcuking hate pointe.....

Teferi

Poite had a good run of games in early-mid 2012 and then fell to pieces again, Always hate him reffing our matches. Scrums are a total coinflip with him too.

Swiwi.

Teferi wrote: »

Poite had a good run of games in early-mid 2012 and then fell to pieces again, Always hate him reffing our matches. Scrums are a total coinflip with him too.

His compatriot Garces is a much better ref.

seanm92

Pudsy33 wrote: »

Don't like George Clancy as his interpretation of scrums and the breakdown bordeelines on insane.

Agreed, whenever I see Clancy named to ref a Connacht match, I expect us to get crucified at the breakdown, Re: Owens, while I think he's a very good ref overall, I dont find him entertaining or funny TBH, his 'this isnt soccer' comment was childish IMO.

I think Glen Jackson is one to watch though, I was really impressed with his performance in the Lions-Force game, although I havnt seen too much of him otherwise, its great to have ex pros reffing and I feel he could be a big success story

Tim Robbins

Most fans when they loose blame the ref. It's really because admitting the better team won might be a dent to their ego.

If the team keeps loosing with different refs, then they blame the manager. The people who do this have probably never reffed or managed a game in their lives. Ah sure isn't easy being an expert on the couch :-)

Tox56

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Most fans when they loose blame the ref. It's really because admitting the better team won might be a dent to their ego.

Agreed generally yes, but you see an example like the Lions match on Saturday and the fans of the winning team were seriously unimpressed with the ref, when the ref genuinely is bad in rugby he can have a huge impact on the game (some would say too much..)

Gordon Gecko

Crash wrote: »

I was always sad when Joel Jutge retired. he screwed us once or twice but he was one of the ones who should have had a longer career.

True I thought he was a very decent international ref and think it's very sad that his knee managed to end both his playing and reffing careers! Whenever I see or hear of a ref who took to it after their playing career was ended I get a huge sense of "fair play" that they love the game that much, I can hardly look at rugby on the TV when I'm injured such is my frustration.

ormond lad

Not that critical of referees and even less so now that ive started to do some refereeing myself
Owens and Rolland are not as good as they were.
Joubert is one of the best around.
Don't mind Jonny Lacey reffing most of the time. Took up reffing straight upon retirement from playing

Swiwi.

ormond lad wrote: »

Not that critical of referees and even less so now that ive started to do some refereeing myself
Owens and Rolland are not as good as they were.
Joubert is one of the best around.
Don't mind Jonny Lacey reffing most of the time. Took up reffing straight upon retirement from playing

I'd be interested on your views of Pollock's performance. My first impression was a mixture of good and bad, but not so bad as some would have you believe. But since you're a ref yourself, I'll give your opinion some weight.

Tim Robbins

Tox56 wrote: »

Agreed generally yes, but you see an example like the Lions match on Saturday and the fans of the winning team were seriously unimpressed with the ref, when the ref genuinely is bad in rugby he can have a huge impact on the game (some would say too much..)

The fans don't know as much as they think. Maybe the ref had a word with the Lions in his pre-match and said he was going to be very strict about staying on your feet and then had to back it up. We don't know.

Also, the higher the levels you go up in rugby the harder it is to ref because things happen quicker. You have to judge not just offences but materiality something a lot of fans don't know even exists. Very few have the ability to ref at that level and if you are 90% of the calls right you are doing right.

That's why it's really good that x - players are getting into reffing.

But the problem line is most fans who give out about refs would struggle to ref a J4 game.

Tim Robbins

ormond lad wrote: »

Not that critical of referees and even less so now that ive started to do some refereeing myself
Owens and Rolland are not as good as they were.
Joubert is one of the best around.
Don't mind Jonny Lacey reffing most of the time. Took up reffing straight upon retirement from playing

That's great. I'm sure a thinking rugby man like yourself will be a great ref.

I like Owen's as he tends to try and let the players play a bit more and only really ping material offenses - he is also a brilliant communicator which is what reffing is really about as we are not always going to agree on some decisions. Lacey tries to explain everything which is good for players and fans.

The thing is as I said very very few can cut it at this level. The reason I said that because is I see some refs say at AIL level or below and when they go up they may not be as good as they were at the level they are use to. The same happens in every position at rugby. You might a brilliant number 7 at J2 but at J1 he struggles. I remember thinking I had pretty much mastered scrums at J3, J2 level and then getting burnt at a J1 game because the props were faster than me. Clancey looked brilliant before he went on the elite international panel; I don't think he has look as good at the elite level. Just my opinion. He looks like he is loosing control a bit.

Fans are pickey with a few decisions in a game but they forget that in Rugby there is almost two decisions per minute so out of 160 decisions if you get 155 right you've done pretty well.

Buer

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The fans don't know as much as they think. Maybe the ref had a word with the Lions in his pre-match and said he was going to be very strict about staying on your feet and then had to back it up. We don't know.

Gatland specifically held a meeting with him in the build up geared towards how he would officiate the breakdown. It's very difficult to gauge exactly how he will interpret it until the game actually begins but the Lions certainly would have known the things he was looking at.

Tox56

Tim Robbins wrote: »

The fans don't know as much as they think. Maybe the ref had a word with the Lions in his pre-match and said he was going to be very strict about staying on your feet and then had to back it up. We don't know.

Yes but you look at the BOD penalty, specifically the 2nd one early on. The 1st one was just about borderline enough to be understandable, I've seen the 2nd one several times and I cannot see for the life of me what is wrong with it. That's not a failure to play the referee

chupacabra

I miss Spreadbury

desertcircus

Have a lot of time for Owens, would like Poite a lot more if he could be bothered to learn how to referee a scrum. To be honest, though, he's just the most obvious of a lot of refs who aren't catching stuff at the scrum. We need some grizzled ex prop to decide to lose weight by becoming a ref...

Tim Robbins

Tox56 wrote: »

Yes but you look at the BOD penalty, specifically the 2nd one early on. The 1st one was just about borderline enough to be understandable, I've seen the 2nd one several times and I cannot see for the life of me what is wrong with it. That's not a failure to play the referee

Hey I was shouting at the TV myself. Especially when I had action replay
Sorry for cheap jibe. You have a point. Both of those penalties against O'Driscoll from NH ref would have been considered good turnovers.

Klunk_NZ

South African's in general produce the best referees. NZ have really good reffs but the ****ty ones seem to make it. I mean Glen Jackson has been our best for over 2 years and needs to be promoted ASAP

I like Poite.

rrpc

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

South African's in general produce the best referees. NZ have really good reffs but the ****ty ones seem to make it. I mean Glen Jackson has been our best for over 2 years and needs to be promoted ASAP

I like Poite.

Likewise. Poite has improved a lot over the last couple of years and got much more relaxed and affable and genuinely seems to enjoy his job. Even to the point of saying to players getting into a bit of aggro "We are enjoying this game, yes?".

Or to ROG: "We are not in Thomond Park Ronan"

Mostly, though he communicates well, gives warnings and doesn't go from zero to whistle like 'Silent Night' Barnes does.

.ak

rrpc wrote: »

Likewise. Poite has improved a lot over the last couple of years and got much more relaxed and affable and genuinely seems to enjoy his job. Even to the point of saying to players getting into a bit of aggro "We are enjoying this game, yes?".

Or to ROG: "We are not in Thomond Park Ronan"

Mostly, though he communicates well, gives warnings and doesn't go from zero to whistle like 'Silent Night' Barnes does.

To be honest, you've just hit on his weak points. Poite is notoriously bad for his communication. Especially with non-French speaking sides. The Best yellow card in the Welsh game is the most recent example. A yellow card for a 50/50 call just because he didn't know what to say to Best so he didn't say anything, and let him jackal the ball.

His communication is terrible, and it's simply from his grasp of the English language. On his day he can be a fantastic ref, keeps it simple and tends to punish the team going backwards a bit so it can make for exciting rugby. But his communication skills and his scrum ref'ing is terrible.

rrpc

.ak wrote: »

To be honest, you've just hit on his weak points. Poite is notoriously bad for his communication. Especially with non-French speaking sides. The Best yellow card in the Welsh game is the most recent example. A yellow card for a 50/50 call just because he didn't know what to say to Best so he didn't say anything, and let him jackal the ball.

His communication is terrible, and it's simply from his grasp of the English language. On his day he can be a fantastic ref, keeps it simple and tends to punish the team going backwards a bit so it can make for exciting rugby. But his communication skills and his scrum ref'ing is terrible.

I'd forgotten about that incident tbh, but that aside, at least he keeps up with the warnings and there's no real surprises when he blows the whistle (exceptions aside).

Scrum reffing is pretty woeful all round, not just with Poite. It's such a lottery these days, I'm almost always flummoxed when teams go for scrums in lieu of penalties as any perceived strength can be immediately negated by the ref's interpretation.

twinytwo

rrpc wrote: »

I'd forgotten about that incident tbh, but that aside, at least he keeps up with the warnings and there's no real surprises when he blows the whistle (exceptions aside).

Scrum reffing is pretty woeful all round, not just with Poite. It's such a lottery these days, I'm almost always flummoxed when teams go for scrums in lieu of penalties as any perceived strength can be immediately negated by the ref's interpretation.

To be fair to the refs, because they cant watch both sides of the scrum at once there is nearly always something funky going on, on the far side.

.ak

Never understood why the lines man can't always watch the blindside? Come in a bit closer if needs be, he can back pedal to the line once the ball comes out.

Al_Coholic

never liked Bryce Lawrence...used to hate him running alongside the kicker when taking penalties or conversions

Tim Robbins

.ak wrote: »

Never understood why the lines man can't always watch the blindside? Come in a bit closer if needs be, he can back pedal to the line once the ball comes out.

It is because it is subjective. Someone might be offside and might have no impact on the game. Or someone might be offside and having no impact on the game but the ref just warned them about it at the last downtime. So the idea is the ref should be consistent to both teams and that way it's up to the ref to call it.

.ak

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It is because it is subjective. Someone might be offside and might have no impact on the game. Or someone might be offside and having no impact on the game but the ref just warned them about it at the last downtime. So the idea is the ref should be consistent to both teams and that way it's up to the ref to call it.

But if the blindside ref comes up to the scrum, then the other lines man can be in charge of the 10m line... That's how it's currently done anyway isn't it? Just that the blindside ref must remain on the touch line?

Tim Robbins

.ak wrote: »

But if the blindside ref comes up to the scrum, then the other lines man can be in charge of the 10m line... That's how it's currently done anyway isn't it? Just that the blindside ref must remain on the touch line?

The TJ's or the assistant ref's will make hand signals to the ref if they think something is up - sometimes. It depends on how they want to work.

Or they say something like keep an eye out for number 6 breaking early he did it in the last few scrums.

They work as a team or are supposed to.

But the game is super technical and super fast so will make mistakes or differ in opinion on subjective matters.

padser

Stev_o wrote: »

Joubert is decent.

I'm sorry, I know it's unfair to judge someone so much on one game, and no one enjoys seeing the French hard done by more than me.....but.....

It was a World Cup final, there were about 5 blatent infringements right under his nose and he didn't have the balls to correctly give a penalty to France.

Garseys

Nigel Owens what a hero. My face lights up when I know he's refereeing a Home game.

What about Barnes???

Tim Robbins

Barnes is very good. Definitely an elite ref.

.ak

Can we please be careful of our posts regarding refs. I know this thread is to discuss ref's pro's and con's, but keep it at that. Abuse, at any level, will not be tolerated. Posts will be deleted and/or infracted.

Klunk_NZ

I am sorry if anything I said about Barnes has been incorrectly perceived as abuse...

Just, he is a poor ref in comparison to the high standard other international refs constantly reach.