Rent, Moving Out and Landlords Demands

Indestructable

Hi guys,
Four of my friends and I left a basement apartment in Dublin at the end of May as our lease was up. We fell on hard times and asked the landlord to use the security deposit as the last months rent.

I got a phone call today (3 weeks later) from the landlord looking for 300 euro to cover the cost of cleaning the place. When we left the house was clean, even more so than when we moved in. She said that the oven needed to be steam cleaned, the toilets were filthy and the floors needed washing. She said they hired someone to do this.

When I first moved into the house, it was PLAGUED with mold and damp. The back walls of two bedrooms and the bathroom were black. Other places the damp was painted over, yet still visible. The kicker being that the painters had been in and left the toilet filthy, like used and not flushed.

I spent a great deal of time cleaning this mess and making the place habitable yet the mold kept coming back as the apartment was a basement one and riddled with damp. The smoke alarms do not work and the fire extinguisher didn't either. We should have left but we thought it better to ride it out for the 9 months we would be there. [Rent was 1200 a month for the 4 bed (basement) apartment in the city centre]

I am almost certain the house was in no fit state to be rented to anybody.

I think it is thoroughly unreasonable that she is demanding 300 euro to clean the place when we left it BETTER than we found it IMO

She has threatened to add us to a renters ''blacklist'' which apparently means we won't find another landlord willing to let to us. Does such a thing exist?

What are your thoughts? How do we avoid this whole debacle?

Thanks for your time and opinions.

djimi

Indestructable wrote: »

She has threatened to add us to a renters ''blacklist'' which apparently means we won't find another landlord willing to let to us. Does such a thing exist?

Only in her mind...

Overall if she wants to deduct €300 for cleaning then she needs to have the receipts/invoices to back it up, and she would want to have a good deal of evidence to back up a cleaning bill like that.

Did you take any pictures of the state of the place when you were leaving?

Indestructable

djimi wrote: »

Only in her mind...

Overall if she wants to deduct €300 for cleaning then she needs to have the receipts/invoices to back it up, and she would want to have a good deal of evidence to back up a cleaning bill like that.

Did you take any pictures of the state of the place when you were leaving?

Unfortunately not. I mean we never thought there would be a problem. The house was cleaned to the best of our ability. The place was a dive, no doubt about it. I have a feeling they want money to paint over the mold and damp for their new tenants.

djimi

Have you any evidence of the state of the place when you moved in? Did you bring any of the issues to the landlords attention at the start, and if so have you anything in writing to back any of this up?

listermint

Next time she phones. Tell her to stop calling you.

Thats what my previous landlord told me when she stole 300 Euro out of each of our deposits on a three bed that was EXTENSIVELY cleaned before our departure.

You could eat your dinner off any floor in the building when we left.

That woman was a wealthy range rover driving tyrant.

Indestructable

djimi wrote: »

Have you any evidence of the state of the place when you moved in? Did you bring any of the issues to the landlords attention at the start, and if so have you anything in writing to back any of this up?

I have old emails detailing the mold problem

runawaybishop

Indestructable wrote: »

She said that the oven needed to be steam cleaned, the toilets were filthy and the floors needed washing. She said they hired someone to do this.

That doesn't sound like it costs 300 euro - she'd need to back up that with receipts. Apart from that, wouldn't this just be normal wear and tear? As long as the place wasn't a sty when you left it.

lycan238

Indeed hindsight is a wonderful thing. When moving in take pictures of the place preferably with the date on the picture (most modern cameras have this function), get your landlord/agent to confirm that these photos reflect the condition of the dwelling upon the commencement of the lease. Upon leaving at the conclusion of the lease take more photos again with the date on them and get agreement (preferably in writing) that the photos reflect the true condition of the dwelling at the end of the lease. If this does go to appeal then these photos will form the basis of your side of the case.

If your landlord/agent has invoices/receipts to cover the €300 I am not sure how to advise on this as it could be a genuine expense.

Indestructable

runawaybishop wrote: »

That doesn't sound like it costs 300 euro - she'd need to back up that with receipts. Apart from that, wouldn't this just be normal wear and tear? As long as the place wasn't a sty when you left it.

I honestly don't know where 300 came from. It was just as was when we moved in. It's very frustrating to be blackmailed and threatened when in truth the house should not be on the rental market AT ALL

runawaybishop

lycan238 wrote: »

If your landlord/agent has invoices/receipts to cover the €300 I am not sure how to advise on this as it could be a genuine expense.

You could, genuinely, spend a lot of cash cleaning and tidying up - surely they'd have to prove it was required and above and beyond normal wear and tear?

djimi

To be honest, I dont really see that there is a lot that you can do. Its not like you are waiting to get your deposit returned, so right now the ball is in her court; she can (and quite possibly will) take a case against you with the PRTB. If she has invoices to justify the expense and photographic evidence that backs up her claim regarding the state of the place then they might rule in her favour (and the fact that you didnt pay your last months rent could possibly go against you somewhat). If she is not prepared to go through the PRTB then she is just blowing hot air, and can be ignored.

Indestructable

This whole thing is complicated by the fact that the LL works through a letting agency and we never spoke to the LL once nor do we have his details. All this threatening and demanding is coming from the agent.

doughef

Can I ask,.. without getting into specifics,.


Is this apartment in the south side of the city? near the canal?

Indestructable

doughef wrote: »

Can I ask,.. without getting into specifics,.


Is this apartment in the south side of the city? near the canal?

No, it's north side. Not too far from O Connell St.

doughef

Indestructable wrote: »

No, it's north side. Not too far from O Connell St.

ok,.. Thanks. Had my suspicions it was South Side.

Best of luck with it!

foggy_lad

Sounds like the agent is trying to get ye to pay for the repainting which most agents will do between tenacies.

hfallada

By the sounds of the place with all the mould it probably is not up to standards regarding vents and circulation. So I think regardless of whether you give her the money. Call dcc and report the apartment for nothing have the proper stanrdards.

I have never heard of a renters blacklist and I think with the €300 she is hoping you wont question it. Ask her for receipts and if she has no. Don't pay her

lycan238

hfallada wrote: »

By the sounds of the place with all the mould it probably is not up to standards regarding vents and circulation. So I think regardless of whether you give her the money. Call dcc and report the apartment for nothing have the proper stanrdards. Ask her for receipts and if she has no. Don't pay her

Firstly yes if it is not up to standards report it to the local council. Secondly if the landlord/agent is not able to prove that the €300 was used for cleaning/painting etc then I would not pay it and would report both the above to the PRTB.

djimi

lycan238 wrote: »

Firstly yes if it is not up to standards report it to the local council. Secondly if the landlord/agent is not able to prove that the €300 was used for cleaning/painting etc then I would not pay it and would report both the above to the PRTB.

To be perfectly honest, I wouldnt bother going to the PRTB about this. What has the OP to gain? Its not like the landlord is withholding the deposit; they lost that when they didnt pay their last months rent. As far as Im concerned, I would ignore it and leave it to the landlord to take a case with the PRTB if they choose to. The OP only needs to contest it if given something to contest; right now the landlord is only blowing hot air demanding a very questionable amount of money for cleaning that may or may not have been required.

lycan238

djimi wrote: »

To be perfectly honest, I wouldnt bother going to the PRTB about this. What has the OP to gain? Its not like the landlord is withholding the deposit; they lost that when they didnt pay their last months rent. As far as Im concerned, I would ignore it and leave it to the landlord to take a case with the PRTB if they choose to. The OP only needs to contest it if given something to contest; right now the landlord is only blowing hot air demanding a very questionable amount of money for cleaning that may or may not have been required.

fair enough

Viper_JB

You're lucky OP I'd ignore her and if she continues to contact you about it warn here that you'll class it as harassment 300 exactly is too square a number to be anything but a made up figure. My last landlord decided to steal 400 from our deposit, for "cleaning some dust from the bottom of the kitchen cabinets and removing some wax from a fireplace" PRTB tribunal thing is on next month for it - very long drawn out process, only reason I'm doing it is that I don't want the landlord to feel like he can get away with this crap - house was spotless when we left!

handlemaster

doughef wrote: »

ok,.. Thanks. Had my suspicions it was South Side.

Best of luck with it!

I was going to say the same... had similar experience in Rathmines good few years ago.. a dump and the landlady took money off for mold in bathroom etc

gaius c

Indestructable wrote: »

Hi guys,
Four of my friends and I left a basement apartment in Dublin at the end of May as our lease was up. We fell on hard times and asked the landlord to use the security deposit as the last months rent.

I'm surprised they let you do that to be honest.

djimi

gaius c wrote: »

I'm surprised they let you do that to be honest.

They probably figured it was all they were going to get, and that it was better than nothing. Trying to get €1200 out of someone who has told you that they have fallen on hard times is not likely to be an easy task.

beauf

lycan238 wrote: »

Indeed hindsight is a wonderful thing. When moving in take pictures of the place preferably with the date on the picture (most modern cameras have this function), get your landlord/agent to confirm that these photos reflect the condition of the dwelling upon the commencement of the lease. Upon leaving at the conclusion of the lease take more photos again with the date on them and get agreement (preferably in writing) that the photos reflect the true condition of the dwelling at the end of the lease. If this does go to appeal then these photos will form the basis of your side of the case.

If your landlord/agent has invoices/receipts to cover the €300 I am not sure how to advise on this as it could be a genuine expense.

+1

Though I don't really understand why people say a place is dire, inhabitable then move in for 12 months.

While mould can be causes by damp and poor ventilation, it can also be caused by peoples habit of not not opening windows when cooking, showering and drying clothes. I know of one LL who won on this issue and retained the deposit when it brought to PRTB, but they had photo evidence etc.

Using the last months rent is very common and breaks the lease. While I can understand why people do it, its kinda double sided to want the LL to follow the letter of the lease while not doing it yourself. It always puts the LL on edge as often its done to skip out on paying for repairs.

Still LL isn't going to chase anyone for 300, it would cost too much to get it back. There isn't a black list either. If you want a tenant to pay for repairs or cleaning, you should meet the tenant and show them the issue face to face at the property. 3 weeks later is nonsense. This is why there needs to be a proper handover.

SashaBond

Had an awful experience with 2 of the landlords when I lived in Dublin and neither of them returned deposit. Oh, wait, one did - 200 out of 1200.

First place we lived in was an apartment in a new built, and we were super clean and super tidy tenants. Not only we did not break or take anything - we actually left a bunch of useful stuff in the apartment. Our lanlord told us some stuff was missing, walls were stained, floors dirty - blah blah blah. It took us a day to clean the place before we left, and it was uber clean. No deposit back. And we didn't take photos.

Unfortunately, we fell for the 'niceness' of our new landlord in the new place and thought: 'Surely this one cannot be as bad as the other one' + it was really hard for us to find any place whatsoever, as non of the agencies I called (several time) would return my calls or offer us anything.

So, second time, we didn't take photos. Lived in the place for 2 years, took meticulous care, had 2 very quiet parties in the place, bought lots of cutlery (as there wasn't much there), fixed things that broke throughout because of wear and tear and even bought a few appliances that weren't there (hoover etc). We left it all in the place and it took us 2 days to clean everything, making sure that the apartment was sparkling clean.

Moving out, landlord said we took things, they had to re-paint the entire place and hire cleaners - blah blah blah. As a 'gesture of goodwill' they gave us 200 Euros back...

I'm in a new place abroad now, took photos of every inch of the apartment here (as here we had to pay 3 months deposit) and mailed it to myself - so I have a stamped and sealed envelope to when these photos were taken.

Good luck all

Sash

beauf

3 months deposit. Its really something we need to move to in Ireland.

Was it furnished?

SashaBond

beauf wrote: »

3 months deposit. Its really something we need to move to in Ireland.

Was it furnished?

The new one? Nope Unfurnished. I live in Denmark now and it's a standard practice here: 3 months deposit, get your own furniture & everything else, most places don't even have washing machines in and you have to re-paint the walls after you move out too

beauf

Same in Germany. It makes much more sense the Irish system.

No issues with items missing, or cleaning, repairs to devices. Or using last month as deposit.

jimmycrackcorm

Tell her you are adding her to the landlords blacklist in return for the renters blacklist

djimi

beauf wrote: »

3 months deposit. Its really something we need to move to in Ireland.

Not before we get a proper deposit holding scheme its not. The idea of risking one months deposit is bad enough; no way I would hand over any more than that to any landlord/agent unless I knew that it was being held by an impartial third party.

Pawwed Rig

SashaBond wrote: »

Had an awful experience with 2 of the landlords when I lived in Dublin and neither of them returned deposit. Oh, wait, one did - 200 out of 1200.

Must have easy wins when you took your PRTB cases then?

beauf

SashaBond wrote: »

The new one? Nope Unfurnished. I live in Denmark now and it's a standard practice here: 3 months deposit, get your own furniture & everything else, most places don't even have washing machines in and you have to re-paint the walls after you move out too

Who holds the deposit.

beauf

djimi wrote: »

Not before we get a proper deposit holding scheme its not. The idea of risking one months deposit is bad enough; no way I would hand over any more than that to any landlord/agent unless I knew that it was being held by an impartial third party.

The LL is risking a lot more than one months deposit. No protection for them either.

djimi

beauf wrote: »

The LL is risking a lot more than one months deposit. No protection for them either.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that from a renters point of view there are simply too many cowboy/amateur landlords in Ireland at the moment to make it worth the risk of handing over several grand of a deposit. A deposit handling scheme would protect both parties, but in terms of unjust deductions (which happen a lot) it would offer vital protection to the tenant.

Other laws also need reviewing/changing to protect landlords and their interests, not least the fact that a tenant could, if they so choose, dig their heals in and not pay rent for the better part of a year in the knowledge that the landlord can do absolutely nothing about it. Thats a seperate matter though.

SashaBond

beauf wrote: »

Who holds the deposit.

The landlord.

SashaBond

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Must have easy wins when you took your PRTB cases then?

Nope - no cases ;( First time didn't have anyone to help me out with advice and didn't have a clue where to go.

The second time we had an extensive e-mail exchange with the landlord and even were talking to a "friend of a friend who has a degree in law" but landlord just continuously came back with more issues, that we have seemingly caused and we were told by this "friend" that we can't really prove anything...

A limpy excuse maybe: but I'm a girl, not Irish, and was kind of left on my own to deal with this - so had no clue. If only I thought of Boards.ie at that moment

djimi

How long ago was this? Its probably not too late to take cases now. I would certainly follow up if it meant a chance of getting a grand of my money back.

SashaBond

djimi wrote: »

How long ago was this? Its probably not too late to take cases now. I would certainly follow up if it meant a chance of getting a grand of my money back.

4 or 5 years ago at this stage. Wouldn't bother anymore with it, as we had a long argument about it when it was on, but I think it's good to know for the rest of the people that these things happen - especially if the landlord sense that you don't know better. I must have been an easy target at 21

StillWaters

djimi wrote: »

Not before we get a proper deposit holding scheme its not. The idea of risking one months deposit is bad enough; no way I would hand over any more than that to any landlord/agent unless I knew that it was being held by an impartial third party.

This is in the Programme for Government and I think the legislation has been drafted. Will probably go before the Dail late this year. When this is in place I imagine 3 month deposits will become more common.

beauf

djimi wrote: »

Be that as it may, the fact remains that from a renters point of view there are simply too many cowboy/amateur landlords in Ireland at the moment to make it worth the risk of handing over several grand of a deposit. A deposit handling scheme would protect both parties, but in terms of unjust deductions (which happen a lot) it would offer vital protection to the tenant....

Likewise considering the risk of losing hundred if not thousands in damages which the deposit can't cover, it would be vital for a LL.

quietsailor

StillWaters wrote: »

This is in the Programme for Government and I think the legislation has been drafted. Will probably go before the Dail late this year. When this is in place I imagine 3 month deposits will become more common.

StillWaters - you don't have a link to this do you, I've tried some google combinations but I'm getting mainly blogs.

As regards the 3 month deposits, if the price fo 3 month deposits is using a 3rd party service most Lls will jump with joy;

1. The argument about who has the deposits disappears, LLs will never again have to deal with it because we simply don't posess it.
2. If there is an arguement about costs returning the deposit it goes to an independent assesor. I've seen the state people, including to my disgust a lot of my friends, have left rented accomodation - dirty walls, unhoovered floors, full rubbish bins, excess rubbish etc and no assesor will accept that as being clean to day-to-day living standards.
3. Tenants stand to lose a lot more money now so hopefully they will take care of the properties they rent. In turn when LLs see that they are getting propertirs back in a well kept condition they will furnish and decorate them better.

Pawwed Rig

quietsailor wrote: »

As regards the 3 month deposits, if the price fo 3 month deposits is using a 3rd party service most Lls will jump with joy;

I am assuming this service is not going to be free? Is there any details about who needs to pay for it?

miss no stars

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I am assuming this service is not going to be free? Is there any details about who needs to pay for it?

Into a deposit account and the deposits themselves fund it. Maybe also a €5-€10 charge on both landlord and tenant. I think that would more than cover their costs and would probably earn them some profit, too.

Pawwed Rig

Have you got a link for this? It is the first I have heard of it.

I can see this going disastrously wrong tbh where the bond company invests the money in a 'secure' location and then suddenly all the money disappears.

miss no stars

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Have you got a link for this? It is the first I have heard of it.

I can see this going disastrously wrong tbh where the bond company invests the money in a 'secure' location and then suddenly all the money disappears.

Don't be a DB, it was opinion on how it could be funded. Seriously, I think the "I think that would more than cover their costs and would probably earn them some profit, too. " made it clear (ya know, the whole, "I think" bit) that it's a guess/opinion at how it would/could be funded in an equitable way.

Pawwed Rig

Sorry I thought you were restating something you had heard elsewhere. What is a DB?

miss no stars

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Sorry I thought you were restating something you had heard elsewhere. What is a DB?

D-bag Sorry, bit of an overreaction as your post came across very high and mighty and a bit put-downy

StillWaters

quietsailor wrote: »

StillWaters - you don't have a link to this do you, I've tried some google combinations but I'm getting mainly blogs.

Its at Committee stage at the moment. http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2012/6912/document1.htm

the_syco

beauf wrote: »

Who holds the deposit.

SashaBond wrote: »

The landlord.

The problem in Ireland is that a couple of landlords have a tendency to spend the deposit when they get it.

miss no stars wrote: »

Into a deposit account and the deposits themselves fund it. Maybe also a €5-€10 charge on both landlord and tenant. I think that would more than cover their costs and would probably earn them some profit, too.

Having seen the way that the value of peoples pensions have gone, I'd prefer the money to be held in an account that earns no-one money.

quietsailor wrote: »

StillWaters - you don't have a link to this do you, I've tried some google combinations but I'm getting mainly blogs.

I can only find links to ipoa.ie which is some landlords association.

quietsailor wrote: »

As regards the 3 month deposits, if the price fo 3 month deposits is using a 3rd party service most Lls will jump with joy

Who does one give the notice that they're leaving the house; the landlord or the 3rd party, I wonder?

quietsailor wrote: »

The argument about who has the deposits disappears, LLs will never again have to deal with it because we simply don't posess it.

I agree on this one; they won't be able to spend it.

quietsailor wrote: »

If there is an arguement about costs returning the deposit it goes to an independent assesor. I've seen the state people, including to my disgust a lot of my friends, have left rented accomodation - dirty walls, unhoovered floors, full rubbish bins, excess rubbish etc and no assesor will accept that as being clean to day-to-day living standards.

I hope said assessor also has to take photos of what the place is like when the tenant moves in, as a lot places that are left like sh|te, were like that when the tenant moved in (from experience).

quietsailor wrote: »

Tenants stand to lose a lot more money now so hopefully they will take care of the properties they rent. In turn when LLs see that they are getting propertirs back in a well kept condition they will furnish and decorate them better.

Actually, no, they don't. They stand to lose a lot less, as the landlord will have to explain why they've spent the money to the 3rd party before they are able to claim it. Or I hope they'll have to, otherwise the 3rd party will be seen as a sham landlords association.

Pawwed Rig

Realistically this will need to be administered by the PRTB or some related party. I cannot see a situation in Ireland where this would be a free service so I can see a situation where PRTB registration will rise to €120/€130 to cover their inefficiencies.
Whatever organisation runs this will find themselves with a permanent cash pool of about €500,000,000*. I think it would be naive to think that they will happily sit on this cash and not invest it/speculate with it. Or indeed the government sees this big pool of cash and diverts it elsewhere under government guarantee (see pension reserve fund).
We will be left with a situation that the government is guaranteeing the deposit. I for one do not think they are competent enough to do that. This is why I think that it would end in disaster.

*Average rent in Ireland €808 x 600,000 which is my wild guess at the amount of rental properties in Ireland. Adjust as appropriate.