Would you pay for a job?

Pilotdude5

In aviation for the last number of years it has become acceptable once training is finished to pay for your first flying job. (Under the guise that you're paying for your type rating on a Boeing, ATR etc, although you pay considerably more than cost price.)

This has resulted in a situation where people are passing their interviews and assessments and offered a start date with an airline only to put their hand up and say they're poor(most of us don't have 30k just lying around right?) and can't take the job. The job is then passed down the line to others who only adequately passed the interview but have plenty of money.

Do you agree with this?
Does anyone want this happening in their industry?
Would anyone out there looking for work congratulate their classmate if it turns out they paid for their job?

And you thought unpaid work experience was bad. It's going to get worse.

Dravokivich

I'd rather the guy flying the plane to be someone who a company was good enough to pay for the job. Not someone who's got the money to put themselves in the seat.

There's a lot of costs involved in training to become a pilot as it is already and this sounds like extortion to me.

How can anyone expect to earn a wage in such circumstances?

Shamrock231

It's a disgrace, 100,000 for training for your ATPL, 30,000 for your type rating, then another 45,000 for the "priviledge" or working with an airline for 500 hours experience.

You're looking at bills of €175,000 at the end of your training. Not only this, but because you're paying 45,000 to work, and it is work, there are passengers in the back, why would an airline employ you once you're finished, if they can get someone else in to pay them to do the work for you.

It's capitalism gone mad.

The Backwards Man

Most people that are self-employed will have paid a substantial amount of money to get themselves set up, is this not a similar situation?

There also must be quite an over-abundance of pilots out there if companies are able to do this.

Shamrock231

The Backwards Man wrote: »

There also must be quite an over-abundance of pilots out there if companies are able to do this.

There's an abundance of new pilots just freshly trained, and a severe lack of experienced pilots. Tale of two halves.

Iwasfrozen

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Most people that are self-employed will have paid a substantial amount of money to get themselves set up, is this not a similar situation?

There also must be quite an over-abundance of pilots out there if companies are able to do this.

Because someone self employed stands to gain as the business expands. Employees don't that why.

biko

Sounds like pure corruption tbh.

Pilotdude5

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Most people that are self-employed will have paid a substantial amount of money to get themselves set up, is this not a similar situation?

There also must be quite an over-abundance of pilots out there if companies are able to do this.

Not really. I paid for training myself as did many others in every industry. This is about money exchanging hands in the assessment process for a job. If 10 fully-qualified and capable Nurses went for an interview for 3 positions but they had to pay the hospital thousands of euros for training on the MRI machine or whatever, what are the odds all 10 would have the money? And what are the odds the 3 who have the money were the best candidates?

Pilotdude5

The Backwards Man wrote: »

There also must be quite an over-abundance of pilots out there if companies are able to do this.

I keep seeing a figure of 8000 unemployed pilots in Europe alone. Its not like the guys and girls paying are bad pilots or anything, they are just using massive amounts of money to get ahead.

The Backwards Man

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because someone self employed stands to gain as the business expands. Employees don't that why.

An airline pilot stands to gain as time goes on too, what would a top level captain's wages be, €250k+? I think it's fair enough, if there's too many people looking for the job, and a reasonable chance they will fcuk off somewhere else when they get the hours under their belt, to charge them a deposit.

TheSB

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

Not really. I paid for training myself as did many others in every industry. This is about money exchanging hands in the assessment process for a job. If 10 fully-qualified and capable Nurses went for an interview for 3 positions but they had to pay the hospital thousands of euros for training on the MRI machine or whatever, what are the odds all 10 would have the money? And what are the odds the 3 who have the money were the best candidates?

But they are not fully qualified are they!! There is a big difference learning to fly in cessnas or small jets or whatever, than be type rated in a full passenger jet. How much is the market price of the type rating course and how much would the airlines charge when you get the job?? Anyway, surely you come to an arrangement to just take it out of your wages for the first few years??

Peregrine

Pay to fly is a disgusting practise but I was under the impression it doesn't happen much in Europe? Does Brookfield do this?

Shamrock231

The Backwards Man wrote: »

An airline pilot stands to gain as time goes on too, what would a top level captain's wages be, €250k+? I think it's fair enough, if there's too many people looking for the job, and a reasonable chance they will fcuk off somewhere else when they get the hours under their belt, to charge them a deposit.

Most senior Captains now wouldn't really get over €150-€160k a year if they're lucky, and that's only those on old contracts, many would reach about the €100k in most airlines these days, still a very nice salary, but you start out on about €30k, and with €170,000 in debt at the start, that's not really sustainable.

Pilotdude5

The Backwards Man wrote: »

what would a top level captain's wages be, €250k+?

By setting the precedent of buying jobs and accepting crappy low-wages it never will be for anyone starting now or anyone who started in the last 10 years.

Dravokivich

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Most people that are self-employed will have paid a substantial amount of money to get themselves set up, is this not a similar situation?

There also must be quite an over-abundance of pilots out there if companies are able to do this.

A self employed person invests not only themselves but the business they intend to startup, so will reap benefits from up if/when it becomes profitable.

This is akin to someone paying this self employed persons business for a job, somewhat investing in themselves, but not "the business" meaning they'll be without the benefits if/when the business becomes profitable.

Iwasfrozen

The Backwards Man wrote: »

An airline pilot stands to gain as time goes on too, what would a top level captain's wages be, €250k+? I think it's fair enough, if there's too many people looking for the job, and a reasonable chance they will fcuk off somewhere else when they get the hours under their belt, to charge them a deposit.

A pilot's wages are not tied directly to the profitability of the airline though. Unlike someone who starts up their own business.

Shamrock231

TheSB wrote: »

Anyway, surely you come to an arrangement to just take it out of your wages for the first few years??

Why make an arrangment to take it out of your wages over a period of years, when the person standing next to you has the cash in their hand and is ready and willing to pay.

That's what's so wrong with it, it's that the person with the money get's it, not the best person. Now that person will be fine, they'll meet the standards, tick all the boxes etc. , but they're not likely to be the best, they may be, but it's not as likely.

donegal_road

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

In aviation for the last number of years it has become acceptable once training is finished to pay for your first flying job. (Under the guise that you're paying for your type rating on a Boeing, ATR etc, although you pay considerably more than cost price.)

This has resulted in a situation where people are passing their interviews and assessments and offered a start date with an airline only to put their hand up and say they're poor(most of us don't have 30k just lying around right?) and can't take the job. The job is then passed down the line to others who only adequately passed the interview but have plenty of money.

Do you agree with this?
Does anyone want this happening in their industry?
Would anyone out there looking for work congratulate their classmate if it turns out they paid for their job?



And you thought unpaid work experience was bad. It's going to get worse.

which countries are you referring to OP. I cant imagine that the same rule would apply to developing countries as well as first world countries?

Pilotdude5

TheSB wrote: »

Anyway, surely you come to an arrangement to just take it out of your wages for the first few years??

Thats what it used to be like and it still is at a select few airlines but its disappearing fast. Unfortunately there is no shortage of rich people who can just come up with the money upfront. And price everyone else out. Which of course is ridiculous.

Pilotdude5

donegal_road wrote: »

which countries are you referring to OP. I cant imagine that the same rule would apply to developing countries as well as first world countries?

Its all countries really. In Indonesia there is one particular nasty scheme where you pay $50000 for 500 hours in a 737, while flying passengers around and not getting paid.

The Backwards Man

Pilotdude5 wrote: »

Unfortunately there is no shortage of rich people who can just come up the money upfront.

From the airline's point of view, that's very fortunate. Why should they pay you to do a job that someone else would pay them to do? They might not be the best but they must be good enough, what business in the world is going to snub it's nose at an offer like that?

Pilotdude5

O yes for the airlines its excellent. Good enough pilots yes, but the best candidates in any interview should get the job. Money should have no place in a hiring process.

Columbia

Airlines who follow this practice should be named. Let the paying passengers decide if they want to be flown by the best pilots, or the ones who paid the most money.

I gave a lot of consideration to flight training a few years ago, but gave up on the idea when I read how much this goes on.

garv123

I remember seen a programme recently about pilots who are qualified but had to rack up hours. Cant remember what country it was, Think it could be somewhere in africa but young pilots from all over the world used flock there and camp in tents outside because they couldn´t afford accommodation hoping to get a job to gain the experience. It was mental to see them all queue´n up to get a job driving crappy 12 seater plans on muddy or grass runways.

SEPT 23 1989

How much would a pilot expect to be paid per year for flying for a major airline after 10 years?

The Backwards Man

Columbia wrote: »

Airlines who follow this practice should be named. Let the paying passengers decide if they want to be flown by the best pilots, or the ones who paid the most money.

I gave a lot of consideration to flight training a few years ago, but gave up on the idea when I read how much this goes on.

The passengers wouldn't care if 'Wrong-way Corrigan' was flying, as long as the fare was cheap.

Shamrock231

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

How much would a pilot expect to be paid per year for flying for a major airline after 10 years?

About the region of 55-65K depending on the airline, some older contracts maybe you might get up to 75k but that's very lucky.

SEPT 23 1989

Shamrock231 wrote: »

About the region of 55-65K depending on the airline, some older contracts maybe you might get up to 75k but that's very lucky.

these figures were linked in your previous thread

€54,000 - €181,000

sbsquarepants

Shamrock231 wrote: »

It's a disgrace, 100,000 for training for your ATPL, 30,000 for your type rating, then another 45,000 for the "priviledge" or working with an airline for 500 hours experience.

You're looking at bills of €175,000 at the end of your training. Not only this, but because you're paying 45,000 to work, and it is work, there are passengers in the back, why would an airline employ you once you're finished, if they can get someone else in to pay them to do the work for you.

It's capitalism gone mad.

On one hand it sounds like extortion - but on the other hand i've yet to see any cases of forced pilot training before the courts. If you disagree with the set up - don't do it!
For a situation like this to exist there must be some pay off at the end of it for those who make it through.

Shamrock231

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

these figures were linked in your previous thread

€54,000 - €181,000

That is for Aer Lingus, who don't make you pay for a type rating, who treat you like a human being etc... Different can of worms to some of the other airlines out there that will take advantage of people.

Also the 181,000 figure is for management pilots, not senior Captains that work on the line. That's for trainers, fleet managers, base managers etc. AFAIK the top wage for a standard pilot after his 20 years is €151,000 with Aer Lingus, and again, that'd be higher than most airlines.

SEPT 23 1989

Shamrock231 wrote: »

That is for Aer Lingus, who don't make you pay for a type rating, who treat you like a human being etc... Different can of worms to some of the other airlines out there that will take advantage of people.

How long do you have to fly to receive 180,000 a year?

Shamrock231

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

How long do you have to fly to receive 180,000 a year?

Sorry, edited my post since, that's for the management type pilots, people in the standards and training department, base managers, fleet managers etc. Most pilots will never take up those posts...

Again though, new pilots in Aer Lingus that have been hired since 2003 are on much less than that with the new contract, that's just a headline grabbing figure.

hardCopy

It depends on the desirability/enjoyability of the job.

It costs a sh1t-tonne of money to get into the profession, but once you're in you get to fly jets every day. The queues of eager young trainees would seem to indicate that for many the money is worth it.

Unpaid internships are common in many industries where people are chasing a "dream job", because people will do whatever they have to do to get a start.

I've never worked in a job I enjoyed enough to do for free, never mind me paying for the privilege. But I know people who love what they do so much that they would do it for free, or make so little they may as well be doing it for free.

sbsquarepants

hardCopy wrote: »

I've never worked in a job I enjoyed enough to do for free, never mind me paying for the privilege. But I know people who love what they do so much that they would do it for free, or make so little they may as well be doing it for free.

I'd do an internship varnishing spray tanning yummy mummies in a salon somewhere i suppose, or maybe as the laser operator in therapie or some such establishment:)