"New Interpetation of RTA" WTF - *Mod Warning - see Post #1*

trad

Anyone know what this is about?
http://www.dublintri.com/


An apology, but we have to make an important changes to the Skerries Triathlon bike route. This week we were told that a new interpretation of the road traffic acts means that it is not acceptable to have triathlon bike courses using sections of roads open to other traffic in the Skerries area. This means that despite Fingal Co Co having given us closed road for sections of the course, it will not possible to have competitors racing on the Skerries Triathlon cycle this weekend. Instead, competitors will be required to complete the cycle course, but the cycle section will be neutralist from a results point of view.



Mod Note:

Please note that following problems with the organisers of this event a few years ago discussion of the event itself is not permitted on Boards. The nature of the specific problems encountered has meant some limited discussion of those problems is fine. However further discussion of the organisation of the event, or feedback from it, is not permitted. This mirrors the approach taken in the Triathlon/Duathlon/Adventure Racing forum

If you have any questions concerning the organisation, potential refunds etc, please contact the organisers directly

Any questions, please PM me

Beasty

seamus

I don't think there's been any new interpretation of the RTA, but there was an incident last year in North County Dublin where an off duty Garda got uppity and anal because a bike race delayed him for a few seconds.

Since then there's been difficulty holding races on open roads in NCD. So maybe that's what they're referring to.

On a slightly related note, a new ROTR has been published online. And they've still got the part about overtaking wrong...

hardCopy

This has affected other triathlons and bike races in North Dublin over the last few months. It doesn't seem to be due to any change in the law, just a change in attitude by An Garda Siochana.

It seems to mean road races are illegal unless the road is completely closed to all other traffic. Which obviously makes organising races a much bigger undertaking.

Beasty

Having been involved in discussion with FingalCoCo on the subject, I know they are coming from s74 of the Roads Act 1993
and in particular

74.—(1) In this section “road race” means a prescribed class of race, time trial or speed trial on a public road involving persons, vehicles or animals.
(2) A person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race shall give at least one month's notice (or such other period of notice as may be prescribed by the Minister) in writing to the road authority and to the Superintendent of the Garda Síochána within whose district the road race is to be held.
(3) (a) A road authority may by notice in writing served on a person who intends to hold, organise or promote a road race or, where the name of that person cannot be ascertained by reasonable inquiry, by notice published in one or more newspapers circulating in the area in which the road race is to be held—
(i) prohibit the holding of the road race,
(ii) prohibit the holding of the road race unless specified conditions, restrictions or requirements are complied with,
(iii) impose specified conditions, restrictions or requirements in relation to the holding of the road race which must be complied with

Basically the Council have exercised what they believe to be their right under 3(a)(i) to prohibit the holding of the race.

Dermot Illogical

Beasty wrote: »

Having been involved in discussion with FingalCoCo on the subject, I know they are coming from s74 of the Roads Act 1993
and in particular

Basically the Council have exercised what they believe to be their right under 3(a)(i) to prohibit the holding of the race.

Has anyone checked to see if it was "prescribed" in the first place?

Beasty

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

Has anyone checked to see if it was "prescribed" in the first place?

Someone did in 2001 and at that stage nothing was - not sure if anyone has done a thorough check since - that's why I used the term "what they believe to be their right"

However even if they have no right to prevent a race, the Guards have the right to enforce road traffic laws, which amounts to the same thing

In this case the "cycling leg" will be a "leisure event" observing all road traffic laws

desertcircus

seamus wrote: »

I don't think there's been any new interpretation of the RTA, but there was an incident last year in North County Dublin where an off duty Garda got uppity and anal because a bike race delayed him for a few seconds.

Since then there's been difficulty holding races on open roads in NCD. So maybe that's what they're referring to.

On a slightly related note, a new ROTR has been published online. And they've still got the part about overtaking wrong...

Is that really the cause? Someone in a position of power threw a moody and decided the rest of the world could get bent? Has anyone made an FOI request for the decision-making process that led to this?

Dermot Illogical

desertcircus wrote: »

Has anyone made an FOI request for the decision-making process that led to this?

If you did I suspect you'd more likely find an "inability to make a decision" process.

Inquitus

So its now a Duathlon sandwiched either side of a Leisure cycle. For the good of all our sports I hope some common sense is brought to bear and we can resume racing in Fingal at some point soon.

Beasty

desertcircus wrote: »

Is that really the cause? Someone in a position of power threw a moody and decided the rest of the world could get bent? Has anyone made an FOI request for the decision-making process that led to this?

Seamus is referring to a incident in the Swords League last year that resulted in the suspension of that league for the remainder of the season

However we discussed with Fingal Council and Guards what would be required for them to be happy with arrangements going forward. It was during these discussions that the Roads Act 1993 was quoted. I know of a number of organisations that are now having issues with any road races (on wheels or on foot). Fingal CoCo only seem prepared to accomodate them if the race has the support of the Guards unless the roads are closed with the local Guards not being prepared to "support" such races (the Ras is a recent exception where rolling road closures were in force)

seamus

desertcircus wrote: »

Is that really the cause? Someone in a position of power threw a moody and decided the rest of the world could get bent? Has anyone made an FOI request for the decision-making process that led to this?

There's not really an FOI to be made in reality. The issue the garda in question had was that a marshall was temporarily holding up traffic to let the race through, and the garda took exception to this.

Marshalls have no authority to stop traffic, so while nothing specifically illegal has occurred, it's a grey area which has survived (and survives elsewhere) by just letting people get on with it, because it causes very little inconvenience.

The Garda put the wheels in motion about stopping these races by threatening the clubs involved. I don't know the specifics involved, but reasonably if the Garda states that marshalls are not to be directing traffic, then the marshalls and the club could be prosecuted for ignoring the Garda's direction. So the option is to hold races unmarshalled on open roads or not at all.

This is actually a countrywide issue, and club leagues exist by the skin of their teeth and the pure goodwill of the local Gardai.

CI needs to sort this out, but there's the fear of poking the bear and invoking the wrath of Finian McGrath-esque politicians who rather than siding with the cyclists decide to clamp down on "lycra lout Armstrong-wannabes"

bcmf

I hate to say it but I think the future of road racing ,cycling in particular, may lay in Corkagh, Mondello or Industrial estates.

Inquitus

bcmf wrote: »

I hate to say it but I think the future of road racing ,cycling in particular, may lay in Corkagh, Mondello or Industrial estates.

Be a disaster if that ends up being the case. I hope you are wrong.

bcmf

Inquitus wrote: »

Be a disaster if that ends up being the case. I hope you are wrong.

so do I. But with this and the 'opininion' that both the Garda and FCC have taken over the last 12 months........

Beasty

They are facing similar problems in certain places in Britain. However Ulster have worked something out with the police, albeit severely restricting field sizes (and I'm pretty sure this is where CI were coming from with their recent announcement on field sizes)

One of the problems here is the sheer numbers racing (cycle races, triathlons, and it should be noted the Fingal restrictions apply to TTs also, although I believe they can be run entirely within current Road Traffic legislation). It seems to me there has been a significant uptake in recent years that unfortunately has resulted in more complaints from other road users. To some extent cycling is becoming a victim of its own success in Ireland

There is already some lobbying taking place, involving CI and Triathlon Ireland. I think racing opportunities on open roads will remain, but suspect on a more restricted basis, certainly in the "busier" areas around Dublin.

ROK ON

There is I believe an urgent need for all of the Dublin clubs to come together and:
1. Actively seek new race routes in order to take the burden,
2. Use the present well used routes sparingly to avoid completely alienating locals.
3. Consider giving something back to local communities - I'd a small donation to local charity or club.
4. Consider tougher routes - this won't suit everyone (and doesn't suit me) but something lack Sally Gap should see more races than it does. It ilshould be easy to marshall, there are very very few houses and junctions on the route and it is rarely busy on a workday evening.

There is a growing backlash against cycling and this is one aspect of it. I think that those of us that want to race need to do more.

Due to family commitments I can't really race at weekends so the mid week after work race is very important to me. I would be happy to help my club to scope out new routes for next year.

trad

Beasty wrote: »

Having been involved in discussion with FingalCoCo on the subject, I know they are coming from s74 of the Roads Act 1993
and in particular

Basically the Council have exercised what they believe to be their right under 3(a)(i) to prohibit the holding of the race.

3(a)(i) refers to

74.—(1) In this section “road race” means a prescribed class of race, time trial or speed trial on a public road involving persons, vehicles or animals.

However
Regulations.
7.—(1) The Minister may make regulations prescribing any matter or thing which is referred to in this Act as prescribed or to be prescribed or in relation to any matters referred to in this Act as the subject of regulations or for the purpose of giving full effect to this Act.

(2) Every regulation made under this Act, other than a regulation under section 10 or 17 , shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made and, if a resolution annulling the regulation is passed by either such House within the next subsequent twenty-one days on which that House has sat after the regulation is laid before it, the regulation shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder.

(3) Where it is proposed to make regulations under section 10 or 17 , a draft thereof shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the regulations shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each such House.

So unless a Minister of Transport since 1993 has made a Regulation prescribing a cycle race as a Road Race within the meaning of the Act, in my humble opinion, Section 74 of the Roads Act 1993 is not enforceable.

Chips Lovell

That's my understanding of it too.

Beasty

I'm not disagreeig - see my post (#6) above. However that does not get round the Guards issue

Dermot Illogical

Beasty wrote: »

I'm not disagreeig - see my post (#6) above. However that does not get round the Guards issue

But that's only a potential issue, isn't it? As long as the ROTR are obeyed then they can't have a problem with it.

godtabh

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

But that's only a potential issue, isn't it? As long as the ROTR are obeyed then they can't have a problem with it.

Try having that argument with a pissed off Garda

Beasty

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

But that's only a potential issue, isn't it? As long as the ROTR are obeyed then they can't have a problem with it.

Correct - if you can find a circuit with no stop or yield signs where riders will "race" 2 abreast unless overtaking (and certainly not in the final sprint), will never cross an unbroken white line etc whe're sorted ...

I do think TTs can be run on this basis (although could have an issue at turns/roundabouts, but that should be relatively minor), but for RRs it's impractical

To be clear, this is where the Guards are coming from it's just one station seems to be ahead of the others at this time

Dermot Illogical

godtabh wrote: »

Try having that argument with a pissed of Garda

My point is that if you aren't acting the maggot, then you're entitled to go about your business unhindered. As Beasty has said, TTs certainly shouldn't be affected by any of this. Road races, if run well, should cause no problems either.

Beasty

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

My point is that if you aren't acting the maggot, then you're entitled to go about your business unhindered. As Beasty has said, TTs certainly shouldn't be affected by any of this. Road races, if run well, should cause no problems either.

To be clear, TT's will be affected, but hopefully only to a minor extent. An "out and back" usually involves a turn at a roundabout with a "Yield" sign. Basically marshals cannot attempt to prevent vehicles entering the roundabout and the cyclist must yield if required. My "solution" would be to have marshals making a note of anyone unduly delayed at a roundabout - maybe a few seconds adjustment if it happens

Lumen

Beasty wrote: »

Correct - if you can find a circuit with no stop or yield signs where riders will "race" 2 abreast unless overtaking (and certainly not in the final sprint), will never cross an unbroken white line etc whe're sorted ...

Is cycling 3 abreast actually illegal?

In the ROTR I can only find:

"In the company of one or more cyclists you must have due regard to other users of the road, and you must take full account of prevailing road conditions. On occasion it may be safe to cycle two abreast, but you must not cycle in a manner likely to create an obstruction for other users."

It doesn't say anything about cycling more that two abreast, and I can't see how "obstruction" could be proven unless you're on a wide one-way street.

Beasty

Looks like the new version of the RoTR have amended this, but IIRC it's in the legislation somewhere

EDIT

It's here

47. (1) A pedal cyclist shall not drive a pedal cycle on a roadway in such a manner as to result in more than two pedal cyclists driving abreast, save when overtaking other pedal cyclists, and then only if to do so will not endanger, inconvenience or obstruct other traffic or pedestrians.


(2) Pedal cyclists on a roadway shall cycle in single file when overtaking other traffic

Lumen

Lineouts FTW.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

Lineouts FTW.

Maybe that's why the Ras has no problems with getting permission.

Slo_Rida

Beasty wrote: »

it's just one station seems to be ahead of the others at this time

Or behind?

hardCopy

Slo_Rida wrote: »

Or behind?

I think might already be more than one station. Of three affected races I've heard of, one is definitely in a separate Garda district to the others.

I'm not involved in the organisation of any of these races so I can't say if the Gardai involved had consistent reasons for objecting.

Harrybelafonte

Would the rolling open road style of racing they use in Belgium (I can't remember what they're called, "Kirche-seomthing"?) work here?

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Would the rolling open road style of racing they use in Belgium (I can't remember what they're called, "Kirche-seomthing"?) work here?

Rolling roads closures should be fine if you can get the guards to do it. There are resource and cost issues of doing so

seamus

The primary issue is that marshalls do not have the authority to close roads or direct traffic. So in order to legitimately operate any kind of rolling race, you need Garda support to stop traffic as you move.

Marshalls stopping traffic for all kinds of events, not just cycling, is unofficially tolerated all over the country. But it doesn't have to be, all it takes is one annoyed Garda, as NCD clubs have found.

Garda support isn't cheap, and if a south Dublin superintendent has 10 requests for support per week coming in for club leagues races, he may decide enough is enough.

Dedicated facilities are probably the way to go for the bulk of club races, with proper road races reserved as a "treat", and for those in open racing. A circular 1km track could be built in a small space (Corkagh park is tiny from a sq metreage point of view) and could be used for basically every time trial. It's boring as hell, but it would lets clubs save the road races for proper races.

Harrybelafonte

seamus wrote: »

The primary issue is that marshalls do not have the authority to close roads or direct traffic. So in order to legitimately operate any kind of rolling race, you need Garda support to stop traffic as you move.

Marshalls stopping traffic for all kinds of events, not just cycling, is unofficially tolerated all over the country. But it doesn't have to be, all it takes is one annoyed Garda, as NCD clubs have found.

Garda support isn't cheap, and if a south Dublin superintendent has 10 requests for support per week coming in for club leagues races, he may decide enough is enough.

Dedicated facilities are probably the way to go for the bulk of club races, with proper road races reserved as a "treat", and for those in open racing. A circular 1km track could be built in a small space (Corkagh park is tiny from a sq metreage point of view) and could be used for basically every time trial. It's boring as hell, but it would lets clubs save the road races for proper races.

How about the 460m one we already have.

Beasty

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

How about the 460m one we already have.

Shush - let's keep that little secret tourselves ...

The problem with attempting to take racing off road is the sheer numbers wanting to race. At Sundrive last night 16 in a race was more than enough. I've not ridden Corkagh Park yet but would imagine you won't be able to accommodate more than 30 or so at a time, and that facility cost more than €400k.

I would hope some accommodation can be reached, but do fear it will limit the number of races particularly in some of the current "hotspots" (Co Meath and in particular a number of roads in the vicinity of Batterstown being the obvious example)

Harrybelafonte

TBH, considering some of the crazy maneuvers I've seen in races this year from both riders (I'm as guilty as anyone else btw) and drivers I'm constantly surprised that races are allowed to run without intervention. Especially considering the races are on the same or similar routes year in year out.

Inquitus

I wonder if legitimate club leagues and open races were driven off the road, does the potential exist for illegal, unsanctioned, uninsured and unsafe adhoc races to spring up?

Harrybelafonte

Alley cats?

Beasty

Inquitus wrote: »

I wonder if legitimate club leagues and open races were driven off the road, does the potential exist for illegal, unsanctioned, uninsured and unsafe adhoc races to spring up?

I suspect the Guards would quickly get wind of that and stamp down on it. Any official of a club involved or organiser of or participator in such an event would leave themselves open to prosecution.

shaungil

Inquitus wrote: »

So its now a Duathlon sandwiched either side of a Leisure cycle. For the good of all our sports I hope some common sense is brought to bear and we can resume racing in Fingal at some point soon.

dear Inquitus
Aquathon not Duathlon.
Yours sincerely
Pedantic Pete
PS I am glad n proper cyclists knew this.

Inquitus

shaungil wrote: »

dear Inquitus
Aquathon not Duathlon.
Yours sincerely
Pedantic Pete
PS I am glad n proper cyclists knew this.

At least they aren't bastardising cycling for once!

Beasty

shaungil wrote: »

dear Inquitus
Aquathon not Duathlon.
Yours sincerely
Pedantic Pete
PS I am glad n proper cyclists knew this.

Aquathlon I believe

Darkglasses

Beasty wrote: »

Aquathlon I believe

3rd sentence :P

Cookie_Monster

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

But that's only a potential issue, isn't it? As long as the ROTR are obeyed then they can't have a problem with it.

This surely. Combined with the fact that you're not supposed to draft or race as a group in a triathlon (or is that only Ironman - I can't remember) means it'll just be a load of single people out for a spin...

seamus wrote:

The primary issue is that marshalls do not have the authority to close roads or direct traffic. So in order to legitimately operate any kind of rolling race, you need Garda support to stop traffic as you move.

put a sheep at each marshal location, the marshals are then directing animals and as such have the proper authority :pac:

Beasty

Awe c'mon - shaungil never gets to the third sentence....

Beasty

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This surely. Combined with the fact that you're not supposed to draft or race as a group in a triathlon (or is that only Ironman - I can't remember) means it'll just be a load of single people out for a spin...

put a sheep at each marshal location, the marshals are then directing animals and as such have the proper authority :pac:

It will be quite interesting as they take the left onto the main Lusk to Skerries Road and the lights in the middle of Skerries - they are supposed to maintain a minimum 10m gap which means with a field of 440 they could be queuing back a couple of km at those junctions ...


... on the other hand if they do maintain the 10m gap as they go past the road where I would gain access to the Lusk Skerries road I could be waiting quite a while for a large enough gap

mirrormatrix

Beasty wrote: »

It will be quite interesting as they take the left onto the main Lusk to Skerries Road and the lights in the middle of Skerries - they are supposed to maintain a minimum 10m gap which means with a field of 440 they could be queuing back a couple of km at those junctions ...


... on the other hand if they do maintain the 10m gap as they go past the road where I would gain access to the Lusk Skerries road I could be waiting quite a while for a large enough gap

I don't think the 10 m rule applies at junctions, turnarounds etc. Otherwise it would be mayhem!

" (v) Entry into the bicycle drafting zone: An athlete may enter a bike draft zone in the following circumstances:

• If the athlete enters the draft zone, and progresses through it within 20 seconds in the overtaking manoeuvre;
• For Safety reasons
• 100 m before and after aid station or transition area
• At an acute turn
• If the Technical Delegate excludes a section of the course because of narrow lanes, construction, detours or other safety reasons
  

Beasty

mirrormatrix wrote: »

I don't think the 10 m rule applies at junctions, turnarounds etc. Otherwise it would be mayhem!

It will be interesting to see how they can cope in practice though - those lights in Skerries will hold a lot of people up and then everyone will have to fall back in line re-instating the 10m gaps once the lights change

Raam

If it's just a leisure cycle why do they need to keep gaps?

Beasty

Raam wrote: »

If it's just a leisure cycle why do they need to keep gaps?

I've no idea, but that's what they've said

TBH, if I was "competing" in the swim before hand and run afterwards I would be taking it easy in the leisure cycle in the middle - why even bother doing that bit if it doesn't count towards the results?

mirrormatrix

Seems silly alright. Would be much easier if they just turned it into an aquathon and made a proper race of it. It just encourages you to be really lazy on the cycle to save the energy for the run!

I think we have to be a bit careful here. As far as I know, no discussion of this "race" is permitted on boards.ie and so we might have to keep this conversation solely to the road closures issue.