my football championship format

PTH2009

here is my take on the football championship of the future

Munster Championship
Cork and Kerry get byes to the Semi final

Tipperary/Waterford/Limerick and Clare playoff

Round 1 (4 teams are paried together)
Tipperary vs Limerick (Limerick Win)
Clare vs Waterford (Waterford Win)
(2 winners advance to the winners Round)

Losers Round (2 losers from round 1 playoff)
Tipperary vs Clare (Tipperary win)
(winner advances to Round 2 , Loser goes into Round 1 of the all ireland qulifers)

Winners Round( 2 winners from round 2 playoff)
Limerick vs Waterford (Limerick win)
(Winner advances to Munster Semi Final to play either Cork or Kerry, loser advances to round 2

Round 2 (2 Losers from Loser/Winners round playoff)
Tipperary vs Waterford (Tipperary win)
(Winner advances to Munster Semi Final to play either Cork or Kerry, Loser goes into Round 1 of the All Ireland Quilifers)

Semi Finals
Cork vs Limerick
Kerry vs Tipperary
(Losers go into All Ireland Qulifers Round 2)

Leinster Championship

Dublin,Meath,Kildare and Wexford get bye to Quarter Finals

Division 1
Louth
Laois
Westmeath
Offaly

Division 2
Carlow
Wiclow
Longford
Kilkenny (they have no choice but to compete)

Round 1 (Teams in each division are paired together)

Div 1
Louth vs Laois (Louth Win)
Westmeath vs Offaly (Westmeath Win)

Div 2
Wiclow vs Kilkenny (Wiclow win)
Longford vs Carlow (Longford win)

(Teams playoff, 2 winners from each division advance to divisional final, 4 losers enter the losers phase)

Losers Round ( 4 losing teams from each divsion are paired off)
Laois vs Kilkenny (Laois win)
Offaly vs Carlow (Offaly win)
(Winners qulify for Round 2, Losers go into Round 1 of the all ireland qulifiers)

Winners Round (4 winners from each divsion playoff)
Div 1 final- Westmeath vs Louth (Louth win)
Div 2 Final- Wiclow vs Longford (Longford win)
(2 winners of each final advance to Leinster Quarter finals, 2 losers go into Round 2)

Round 2 (2 losing winners round teams vs 2 loser rounds winners)
Laois vs Wiclow (Laois win)
Offaly vs Westmeath (Westmeath win)
( 2 winners advance to Leinster Quarter Finals, 2 losers go into Round 1 of the all ireland Quarter finals)

Quarter Finals (4 bye teams vs 4 teams from Qulifers) (draw to determine pairings)
Dublin vs Laois
Kildare vs Longford
Wexford vs Louth
Meath vs Westmeath
(Winners advance to Quarter Finals, losers go into Round 1 of the All Ireland Qulifers)

Semi finals (4 winning teams from QF, draw to determine pairings, 2 winners advance to Leinster final, 2 losers go into All Ireland Qulifers Round 2)

Final (Winner advances to All Ireland Quarter Finals, Loser goes into All Ireland Qulifers Round 4)

Connaught Championship
New york will play the previous years Champions (Which is Mayo according to this simulation).

Mayo and Leitrim get bye to Semi Finals
Roscommon, London, Sligo and Galway playoff

Round 1 (4 teams are paired off)
Roscommon vs Sligo (Roscommon win)
London vs Galway (Galway win)
(2 winners advance to Winners round, 2 losers advance to Losers round)

Winners Round (2 winners from Round 1 playoff)
Roscommon vs Galway (Roscommon)
(Winner qulifys for Connauht Semi Final to play either Leitrim or Mayo, loser goes into Round 2)

Losers Round (2 losers from Round 1 playoff)
London vs Sligo (London)
(winner advances to Round 2, Loser qulifys for Round 1 of the All Ireland qulifers)

Round 2 (Loser from Winners Round vs Winner from Losers Round)
Galway vs London
Winner advances to Connuaght Semi final to play either Mayo or Leitrim, loser goes into Round 1 of the All Ireland Qulifers)

Semi Finals
Mayo vs Galway
Leitrim vs Roscommon
( 4 winning teams from QF, draw to determine pairings, 2 winners advance to Connaught final, 2 losers go into All Ireland Qulifers Round 2)

Final- (Winner advances to All Ireland Quarter Finals, Loser goes into All Ireland Qulifers Round 4)

Ulster Championship (No seedings because teams are so matched)

Round 1
(9 teams divided into 3 groups of 3, each team plays each other once (T1 vs T2) (T2 vs T3) (T3 vs T1).

3 teams that finish top of each group advance to Ulster Semi Finals

the highest scoring team to finish to 2nd from all the groups advance as team 4 into the Ulster Semi Finals)

The 5 teams that did not make the Ulster Semi finals go into Round 1 of the all ireland Qulifers.

Semi Finals (3 top teams and 2nd placed team (highest scoring team) draw is made to determine pairs, Winners advance to final, losers go into Round 2 of the All Ireland Qulifers)

Final- (Winner advances to All Ireland Quarter Finals, Loser goes into All Ireland Qulifers Round 4)

All Ireland Qulifers

Premilary Round/Round 1- (17 teams that did not make there Prov semi finals)

Prem Round- (2 teams from the 17 are drawn together and Winner advances to Round 1, loser exits the championship)

Round 1- (15 teams and prem round winner are paired together to make 8 games, 8 winners advance to round 2)

Round 2- (8 Round 1 Winners vs 8 Losing Prov Semi Finals, 8 games, 8 winners advance to Round 3)

Round 3- (8 teams from round 2 are paired off, 4 games, 4 winners advance to Round 4)

Round 4- (4 Round 3 winners vs 4 Prov final losers, 4 games, 4 winners advance to All Ireland Quarter Finals)

All Ireland Quarter Finals- (4 Round 4 winners vs 4 Prov Champions)

All Ireland Semi Final (4 teams)

All Ireland Final

The 8 teams that have byes into there Prov Quarters/Semis will play in a special Challenge Tournment against each other to keep them match fit while the other teams playoff.

My plan is for the weaker teams in each provience to play each other and for all teams to have more game time before the serious end of the championship.

Please give feedback as it took a while to think about

Thanks

Green Giant

Sounds like a good plan. Provincial championships are kept and every team is getting decent game time rather than just being left on a hiding to nothing. Clearly you thought about it for some time and it shows. Thumbs up from me

68Murph68

The key factor relating to the Championship format is supposed to be the FRC Committee report on the Championship structure.

From the FRC website.

The second report, on competition structures and related matters, will be published early in 2013.

This seems to have vanished down a rabbit hole.

Anyone heard anything about this anywhere?

OneColdHand

When you say, for example:

PTH2009 wrote: »

Dublin,Meath,Kildare and Wexford get bye to Quarter Finals

what decides these 4 teams? I mean, I understand Dublin. But why do Wexford get a bye over, say, Westmeath/Louth/Laois/Offaly? All these teams are pretty similar standard in the broader scheme of things.

PTH2009

OneColdHand wrote: »

When you say, for example:



what decides these 4 teams? I mean, I understand Dublin. But why do Wexford get a bye over, say, Westmeath/Louth/Laois/Offaly? All these teams are pretty similar standard in the broader scheme of things.

i was going by this years semi finalists. If this was the system each year,the previous years leinster semi finalists would get byes to the quarters

premierstone

OneColdHand wrote: »

When you say, for example:



what decides these 4 teams? I mean, I understand Dublin. But why do Wexford get a bye over, say, Westmeath/Louth/Laois/Offaly? All these teams are pretty similar standard in the broader scheme of things.

I would imagine the intention would be that you would alocate the byes to the semi finalist's from the previous year?

OP you have clearly given this alot of thought and there is great merit in your proposals, however one thing that strikes me is the extra amount of games involved, for example if one of the so called weaker teams were to go on an extended run they could have upto 10 games, use my own county as an example under your proposal they would need to win 10 matches, and we are likely to be involved in the latter stages of the hurling aswell most years. The Club championships would be a mess and would affectivley be on hold for up to 6 months every year.

In order to implement something like you are proposing then the whole GAA calender would need to be re-structured, including League, club championships, colleges, minor/u-21 etc.

I would also imagine that some of the stronger counties might not be too happy about a whole new system being designed with the aim of giving weaker counties an advantage and thus over time close the gap, Kerry Chairman Patrick O'Sullivan hinted at this in an article in todays Examiner with relation to Tipp footballers.

bruschi

OneColdHand wrote: »

When you say, for example:



what decides these 4 teams? I mean, I understand Dublin. But why do Wexford get a bye over, say, Westmeath/Louth/Laois/Offaly? All these teams are pretty similar standard in the broader scheme of things.

teams who make the Leinster semi finals get a bye to the quarter finals every year as it currently stands, so implementing this into this proposal would make little or no difference. Teams this year were Dublin, Kildare, Wexford and Meath, the very same as what will be next year, and only Carlow instead of Meath was the change from last years bye teams.

Frankie Lee

Cork and Kerry still only have to win one competitive game a year to get to an All Ireland quarter final while Ulster teams would need to win 4 tough games to get to the same point.

wicklowwonder

Personally I think it needs to go like the soccer World Cup. 32 teams in groups of 4. London are number 32 New York can't enter as they won't play games in Ireland due to visa situation. Play off like World Cup top two in each group advance to second round you could have home and away for the group stages if you have time. Everyone has minimum of 3 games or 6 if home and away is implemented. You could seed teams based on previous season or else just have open draw which could really throw up some random groups which would add to the fun. Bottom two in each group could play off for an All Ireland B if interest was there but maybe no interest??

Play off the provincial championships as start of season games instead of FBD league etc.

Always_Running

No matter what format you use it still won't stop the mismatches the championship like the champions league in soccer doesn't get going until the knock out stages and the cream always rises to the top . The football championship is already dragged out why drag it out further?

Syferus

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Cork and Kerry still only have to win one competitive game a year to get to an All Ireland quarter final while Ulster teams would need to win 4 tough games to get to the same point.

You'd want to tell Donegal that because they seem to have forgotten.

Cosmo Kramer

Under that format the way Connacht is at the moment Mayo would have to go to NY nearly every year, the county board are skint enough already without that!

I actually think the problem with the championship is that the best teams are kept apart for too long, resulting in too many one sided poor quality games e.g. Mayo v Roscommon last Sunday. Having round robins in the provinces would only change things by creating too many balanced poor quality games e.g. Cavan v Fermanagh last Sunday. My suggestion would be to keep the current format in the provincial championships but have them all finished by the end of June along with the qualifiers. Leitrim's gaps between matches this year is crazy, no need for it.

After that, there should be a bigger deal made of the All Ireland series. I would play the quarters and semis on a best of three format with the final staying as a one off fixture - meaning more but at the same time meaningful matches between good quality teams during high summer, but still with one big final fixture at the end. This would create serious competition between the mid rank teams to get into this last eight alongside the big guns and the best of the rest would then get more opportunity to develop by playing the best teams over two or three games in the quarters whereas the mid rank teams that just aren't up to it wouldn't still be getting thumpings in mid July.

If the interest was there you could have a B championship between teams that didn't make the last eight running at the same time as the all Ireland series - running July to September.

Tom Joad

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Under that format the way Connacht is at the moment Mayo would have to go to NY nearly every year, the county board are skint enough already without that!

I actually think the problem with the championship is that the best teams are kept apart for too long, resulting in too many one sided poor quality games e.g. Mayo v Roscommon last Sunday. Having round robins in the provinces would only change things by creating too many balanced poor quality games e.g. Cavan v Fermanagh last Sunday. My suggestion would be to keep the current format in the provincial championships but have them all finished by the end of June along with the qualifiers. Leitrim's gaps between matches this year is crazy, no need for it.

After that, there should be a bigger deal made of the All Ireland series. I would play the quarters and semis on a best of three format with the final staying as a one off fixture - meaning more but at the same time meaningful matches between good quality teams during high summer, but still with one big final fixture at the end. This would create serious competition between the mid rank teams to get into this last eight alongside the big guns and the best of the rest would then get more opportunity to develop by playing the best teams over two or three games in the quarters whereas the mid rank teams that just aren't up to it wouldn't still be getting thumpings in mid July.

If the interest was there you could have a B championship between teams that didn't make the last eight running at the same time as the all Ireland series - running July to September.

No offence but one of the daftest things I have read here in a long time. When Mayo actually win an all-Ireland you might be entitled to that level of arrogance - its only 3 short years ago since Sligo and Longford knocked Mayo out of the championship. Under your system back then would Mayo have played what Junior B in 2011 - do you seriously think Mayo would be where they are now if that was the case.

Fr Tod Umptious

Tom Joad wrote: »

No offence but one of the daftest things I have read here in a long time. When Mayo actually win an all-Ireland you might be entitled to that level of arrogance - its only 3 short years ago since Sligo and Longford knocked Mayo out of the championship. Under your system back then would Mayo have played what Junior B in 2011 - do you seriously think Mayo would be where they are now if that was the case.

Calm down the poster only suggested that the Connaught winner going to NY would be crazy, and seeing as Mayo are likely to win their third in a row this year that would be a good example of how bad an idea it is.
Plus most of the folks in the North Bronx are from Leitrim, so they would be pretty annoyed if Leitrim never got the chance to visit.

As for the OP proposal to be honest it looks very long winded and complicated.

I think the system has to be made more simple rather than complicated, and a start would be an open draw for the All Ireland semi-finals.
I would also suggest the realignments of the 'provinces' into equal numbers based on geography, in hurling Galway and Antrim are in Leinster, and the world has not ended

Keep the existing back door system.

No system is ever going to get the weaker counties up to the level of the stronger ones., Carlow will always be Carlow, Kerry will always be Kerry.
And as a poster said on another thread it's not that there are more hammerings now than in the past , it's just that they are better covered by the media and we are more aware of them

The current system has worked very well if you ask me because it have given teams that would previously never have any 'run' in the summer a 'run'
Fermanagh have got to an All Ireland quarter final, and semi final in constitutive years
Sligo have got to quarter finals
Loais have had great runs
Kildare have had great runs
Wicklow have beaten Down.
Limerick played in Croke Park in the senior championship for the first time in over 100 years

True the system benefits the strong counties also by giving them a chance to regroup, but what it gives the smaller counties far outweighs that.

Cosmo Kramer

Tom Joad wrote: »

No offence but...I'm going to offend you anyway

I always love this response...:)

Tom Joad wrote: »

No offence but one of the daftest things I have read here in a long time. When Mayo actually win an all-Ireland you might be entitled to that level of arrogance - its only 3 short years ago since Sligo and Longford knocked Mayo out of the championship. Under your system back then would Mayo have played what Junior B in 2011 - do you seriously think Mayo would be where they are now if that was the case.

I think it is fairly clear that you have completely mis-read my post. Following on from a bad year in 2010 Mayo would have gone on to play in the All Ireland quarter and semi finals in 2011, just like they actually did.

Under the system I proposed above, in 2010 having been well beaten by Sligo and deservedly beaten by Longford, Mayo would have had the opportunity (if they wished to) to enter a B championship for all counties bar the eight teams that reached the All Ireland series that year. This would have run concurrent to the All Ireland Series. The way we were going in 2010 I can't imagine we'd have done very well in it. Everything would reset to zero for 2011 and all subsequent years - there would be no penalty the following year for having played in the B champ in 2010 - it would have just been an opportunity to get a few extra games in if teams wanted to. I do not see any arrogance in the post.

Have another read of it and maybe try to come back with a response that actually makes sense this time. I'll give you a clue to start off with - the only real difference between my proposal and what happens now is that the All Ireland quarter and semi finals would be played over best of three rather than as one off games.

keane2097

I'd love if the quarter-finals onward were played over a couple of games rather than one-offs.

Fr Tod Umptious

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I always love this response...:)



I think it is fairly clear that you have completely mis-read my post. Following on from a bad year in 2010 Mayo would have gone on to play in the All Ireland quarter and semi finals in 2011, just like they actually did.

Under the system I proposed above, in 2010 having been well beaten by Sligo and deservedly beaten by Longford, Mayo would have had the opportunity (if they wished to) to enter a B championship for all counties bar the eight teams that reached the All Ireland series that year. This would have run concurrent to the All Ireland Series. The way we were going in 2010 I can't imagine we'd have done very well in it. Everything would reset to zero for 2011 and all subsequent years - there would be no penalty the following year for having played in the B champ in 2010 - it would have just been an opportunity to get a few extra games in if teams wanted to. I do not see any arrogance in the post.

Have another read of it and maybe try to come back with a response that actually makes sense this time. I'll give you a clue to start off with - the only real difference between my proposal and what happens now is that the All Ireland quarter and semi finals would be played over best of three rather than as one off games.

B Championships have been tried before, I recall there was on in the mid 90s and the Tommy Murphy Cup was an attempt in the mid '00s, they have never taken off.

Once counties are out they concentrate on their local county championships, Carlow may be poor at national level but the locals are probably mad into their county championships.

premierstone

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

After that, there should be a bigger deal made of the All Ireland series. I would play the quarters and semis on a best of three format with the final staying as a one off fixture - meaning more but at the same time meaningful matches between good quality teams during high summer, but still with one big final fixture at the end.

keane2097 wrote: »

I'd love if the quarter-finals onward were played over a couple of games rather than one-offs.

So basically just get rid of all the also rans and we have our own 'proper' championship when they are all out of the way! Also under your proposal a Leinster side could end up playing 11 games to win an AI( not including replays) - will there be no club games from April to September?

Keane I'm sure you would as would most poster's from Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Kildare and Dublin. Its the mid ranked and weaker teams that need more games not the elite.

Cosmo Kramer

premierstone wrote: »

So basically just get rid of all the also rans and we have our own 'proper' championship when they are all out of the way!

That's a pretty cynical way of looking at it. There's no point having the two games featured at the weekend being the 'big' matches of the day at peak season. In fairness, for neutrals, they were both rubbish games to watch. We need to sell the sport - better to have more games between the strongest teams at that stage. The sub-championship is there to help other teams develop - some of the stronger teams won't always make the quarters either - Mayo, Down, Kildare etc. so it could still be decent enough quality.

It's also worth pointing out that, at present, more than half the teams are, to use your own phrase, 'gotten rid of' by the end of the first weekend in July so it's not actually a huge change in format.

premierstone wrote: »

Also under your proposal a Leinster side could end up playing 11 games to win an AI(not including replays) - will there be no club games from April to September?

Some counties suspend club action for these months already anyway. It's getting off point a bit but I would like to see the respective county leagues run during this period with county players not involved in these games to protect them from burnout. I would then play county championships in the autumn with county players involved so that everyone is at full strength and clubs aren't being messed around like they are at present.

premierstone wrote: »

Keane I'm sure you would as would most poster's from Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Kildare and Dublin. Its the mid ranked and weaker teams that need more games not the elite.

I can't speak for Keane but I would like all teams to get more games against teams of similar standard - the weaker teams would be able to develop while getting less thrashings and the stronger teams would get more competitive fixtures and give the game the promotion it deserves against serious competition from other sports.

Just my opinion, but I think there are merits to the proposal.

Tom Joad

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I always love this response...:)



I think it is fairly clear that you have completely mis-read my post. Following on from a bad year in 2010 Mayo would have gone on to play in the All Ireland quarter and semi finals in 2011, just like they actually did.

Under the system I proposed above, in 2010 having been well beaten by Sligo and deservedly beaten by Longford, Mayo would have had the opportunity (if they wished to) to enter a B championship for all counties bar the eight teams that reached the All Ireland series that year. This would have run concurrent to the All Ireland Series. The way we were going in 2010 I can't imagine we'd have done very well in it. Everything would reset to zero for 2011 and all subsequent years - there would be no penalty the following year for having played in the B champ in 2010 - it would have just been an opportunity to get a few extra games in if teams wanted to. I do not see any arrogance in the post.

Have another read of it and maybe try to come back with a response that actually makes sense this time. I'll give you a clue to start off with - the only real difference between my proposal and what happens now is that the All Ireland quarter and semi finals would be played over best of three rather than as one off games.

Maybe you should have been clearer .

What jumped out of you post is the we are better than the rest attitude of the noveau riche - its really laughable at this stage - how many times did you use big teams, better sides etc in your post. It's Mayo you are from not Donegal, Dublin or Kerry -as for extra games who does that help the way things stand? it should be about developing the game or levelling the player field. Anyway there is only so many times in one summer I can watch Mayo choke on a big day

Point is it goes in cycles for the majority of teams apart from Kerry who are always near the top and the elephant in the room is being ignored - as long as the provincial championship are being organised as they are at the minute the system will be inequitable and that's what needs to be addressed.

Connacht and Munster in particular have been unbalanced for quite some time and Leinster is heading that way. While I would like to see the provincials kept - in their current format they are not working.

While people seem to buy the lazy journalism of the Sunday game and still swallowing everything Spillane says as gospel - whatever you say about Ulster at least it's competitive.

ArmaniJeanss

Wish 1. We want teams to have a guaranteed amount of games because only by playing games can the lesser teams improve.

Wish 2. We want all games to be relevant to the championship as a whole with something tangible at stake, thus attractive to both participants and the paying customer.

Both these are put forward by pundits as requisites of any structures, yet the same pundits don't seem to cop they are mutually exclusive wishes.

The only structure where every single game is guaranteed to be relevant is a single elimination tournament (the original AI structure) and that limits teams to one game.

At a reverse extreme is the 8x4 Champions League H&A structure guaranteeing 6 games, which accepts that a lot of games are going to be irrelevant. They get around this to a small extent by giving home field adv for group winners, and prizemoney for games won, but still lots of games, maybe 25% are dead rubbers.

The GAA has come up with a double elimination tournament (up to last 8) as a sort of halfway house between the 2 wishes.
But until GAA people realise that some things are impossible then the debate is destined to be mired in 'something must be done' rubbish.

Syferus

Tom Joad wrote: »

Maybe you should have been clearer .

What jumped out of you post is the we are better than the rest attitude of the noveau riche - its really laughable at this stage - how many times did you use big teams, better sides etc in your post. It's Mayo you are from not Donegal, Dublin or Kerry -as for extra games who does that help the way things stand? it should be about developing the game or levelling the player field. Anyway there is only so many times in one summer I can watch Mayo choke on a big day

Point is it goes in cycles for the majority of teams apart from Kerry who are always near the top and the elephant in the room is being ignored - as long as the provincial championship are being organised as they are at the minute the system will be inequitable and that's what needs to be addressed.

Connacht and Munster in particular have been unbalanced for quite some time and Leinster is heading that way. While I would like to see the provincials kept - in their current format they are not working.

While people seem to buy the lazy journalism of the Sunday game and still swallowing everything Spillane says as gospel - whatever you say about Ulster at least it's competitive.

Is it? I see it as being hardly any different to Connacht this year apart from having more teams. Sure, Tyrone gave Donegal a game for 50 minutes but after that they aren't expected to have any real trouble swatting aside teams. Would Galway-Roscommon have been competitive if it happened this year? Sligo-Galway? Sligo-Leitrim? In Ulster like every other province there's the top team (or two) and everyone else that can beat each other.

I think all four provinces have obvious dominant teams right now, with Munster, the most rote of the lot, being the most competitive at the top level given it has two counties with AIs in the last four years and both supposedly challenging again this year.

I'm actually a supporter of the provincial system but all four have serious competitiveness problems right now.

We need to investigate spending at senior level and get the true numbers that the Kerrys, Mayos, Dublins and Donegals are spending to get where they are. Once we've got a good outline of what's being spent a sensible cap needs to be set on senior county team spending. A lot of the top teams are running huge debts to be where they are so hopefully they'd understand the value of introducing a hard cap on spending if they know it's being enforced on their competitors as well. On top of that there's should be a minimum amount a county has to spend on its senior team to prevent half-hearted efforts by counties. We need to normalise the grade.

The GAA needs to look at financially supporting mid-tier counties by pooling senior revenue but even simple things like paying for the services talented professional coaches to help relay the same systems and training methods of the top teams to other counties would help.

We have to close to coaching/expertise gap if we ever hope to have more teams capable of challenging the top sides, changing the format or order games are played is pointless unless the way teams are prepared changes as well because ultimately that's what is at the root of the hammerings we've seen lately.

klairondavis

How would a cap on team expenditure be policed? A lot of the investment in these teams is from private sources anyway so it wouldn't appear on the county board's accounts.

Tom Joad

Syferus wrote: »

Is it? I see it as being hardly any different to Connacht this year apart from having more teams. Sure, Tyrone gave Donegal a game for 50 minutes but after that they aren't expected to have any real trouble swatting aside teams. Would Galway-Roscommon have been competitive if it happened this year? Sligo-Galway? Sligo-Leitrim? In Ulster like every other province there's the top team (or two) and everyone else that can beat each other.

I think all four provinces have obvious dominant teams right now, with Munster, the most rote of the lot, being the most competitive at the top level given it has two counties with AIs in the last four years and both supposedly challenging again this year.

I'm actually a supporter of the provincial system but all four have serious competitiveness problems right now.

We need to investigate spending at senior level and get the true numbers that the Kerrys, Mayos, Dublins and Donegals are spending to get where they are. Once we've got a good outline of what's being spent a sensible cap needs to be set on senior county team spending. A lot of the top teams are running huge debts to be where they are so hopefully they'd understand the value of introducing a hard cap on spending if they know it's being enforced on their competitors as well. On top of that there's should be a minimum amount a county has to spend on its senior team to prevent half-hearted efforts by counties. We need to normalise the grade.

The GAA needs to look at financially supporting mid-tier counties by pooling senior revenue but even simple things like paying for the services talented professional coaches to help relay the same systems and training methods of the top teams to other counties would help.

We have to close to coaching/expertise gap if we ever hope to have more teams capable of challenging the top sides, changing the format or order games are played is pointless unless the way teams are prepared changes as well because ultimately that's what is at the root of the hammerings we've seen lately.

I know what you are saying re Connacht/ Ulster but there are major differences. Ok Connacht at the minute is at it most uncompetitive so maybe that's an anomaly but even at its most competitive and with so few counties (realistically only 4 than can really have aspirations to win it) only Galway have won the All Ireland in the last 25 years and that's it. Ok Mayo have made plenty of finals but have ultimately fallen short.

Compare that to Ulster - 7 counties have won finals in the last 25 years and 9 of the last 22 all-Irelands.

My view is that the provincial system has still a place but it is unfairly stacked at the moment and is not helping the current position.

Re the money -haven't given it a lot of thought but it is an interesting argument. I know Cavan have spent a lot of money getting the underage success and have been blessed with a really generous sponsor - it helps across with its a multinational with the Chairman a former county player of course.

68Murph68

klairondavis wrote: »

How would a cap on team expenditure be policed? A lot of the investment in these teams is from private sources anyway so it wouldn't appear on the county board's accounts.

The very least they could do would be insist that all county boards should have to publish their financial accounts on their county website.

They could also insist that any associated entities e.g. Friends of County, Club County, County Supporters Clubs should also have to publish their financial accounts on the relevant county website otherwise they don't get recognised as legitimate by the GAA.

Bring in a rule stating that the source of all donations over a certain amount have to be disclosed.

It probably wouldn't stop anyone who was determined to take flout the rules but they could at least make a token effort to bring some sort of basic level of transparency and openness.

If people could see that any donations were being spent on legitimate expenses like sending coaches into school, they would probably be a lot more comfortable about giving money as opposed to being used to line the pockets of some lads determined to make the role of an intercounty manager a full-time lucrative gig.

klairondavis

68Murph68 wrote: »

The very least they could do would be insist that all county boards should have to publish their financial accounts on their county website.

They could also insist that any associated entities e.g. Friends of County, Club County, County Supporters Clubs should also have to publish their financial accounts on the relevant county website otherwise they don't get recognised as legitimate by the GAA.

Bring in a rule stating that the source of all donations over a certain amount have to be disclosed.

It probably wouldn't stop anyone who was determined to take flout the rules but they could at least make a token effort to bring some sort of basic level of transparency and openness.

If people could see that any donations were being spent on legitimate expenses like sending coaches into school, they would probably be a lot more comfortable about giving money as opposed to being used to line the pockets of some lads determined to make the role of an intercounty manager a full-time lucrative gig.

I'd agree fully with your points regarding financial transparency.

However, I just cannot see any sort of spending cap being workable. It would be impossible to police and if anything it would hinder the smaller counties even further because the bigger counties are more likely to have private benefactors supporting them financially.

mickmackey1

Although the provincial system is probably anachronistic, at the end of the day any one of Donegal, Dublin, Cork, Kerry or Mayo could win Sam this year.

That's more competitors than almost any professional soccer league across Europe.

68Murph68

Maybe its speaking at the Kerryman but I really don't put all that much importance on the provincial Championships.

How much value did Dublin, Cork and Mayo place on winning the provincial Championships last year? How many of the players on those teams would rate last year as a good year.

Even in terms of the losing provincial finalists from last year (Clare, Down, Meath, Sligo) What did they gain from getting to a provincial final?

People mention about the fact of Ulster being more competitive but its worth remembering that the draw worked out well this year in terms of Donegal v Tyrone getting drawn early on. By all accounts the Antrim v Monaghan game was a very strong contender for the worst game of the season so far but it didnt really get all that much in the way of publicity.

People go on about not wanting to get rid of local derbies if you get rid of the provincial championships but just getting rid of the provincial championships mean that all local derbies will disappear. Anyway for me the key factor in terms of attendance (which strikes me as a good indicator of interest levels) is competitive games as opposed to any rivalries that are solely based on geographical distance which is what the provincial Championship is based on.
Basically a local derby needs to be someway competitive to be attractive.

In Kerry's case last year you can compare the attendance at the game against Tipperary which was in the region of 4,000 and the game against Tyrone which was in the region 24,000.The attendance at the Cork v Kerry game was in the region of 23,000. [I know there are various factors with the games taking place in Tipp, Kerry and Cork but pretty sure all 3 games were televised.] Basically if you want to get people to turn up in a stadium, you need to have games that are likely to be competitive.

nlgbbbblth

They should go back to the old knockout system.

The four provincial winners advance to the All Ireland semi finals.

We might not hear stuff like this.

68murph68 wrote:

Maybe its speaking at the Kerryman but I really don't put all that much importance on the provincial Championships.

PTH2009

id say if Dublin win the leinster football this year they will not be much of a celebration. Stephen Cluxton is captain and doesnt believe in celebration so imagine his speech lol

Fr Tod Umptious

68Murph68 wrote: »

Maybe its speaking at the Kerryman but I really don't put all that much importance on the provincial Championships.

How much value did Dublin, Cork and Mayo place on winning the provincial Championships last year? How many of the players on those teams would rate last year as a good year.

Even in terms of the losing provincial finalists from last year (Clare, Down, Meath, Sligo) What did they gain from getting to a provincial final?

People mention about the fact of Ulster being more competitive but its worth remembering that the draw worked out well this year in terms of Donegal v Tyrone getting drawn early on. By all accounts the Antrim v Monaghan game was a very strong contender for the worst game of the season so far but it didnt really get all that much in the way of publicity.

People go on about not wanting to get rid of local derbies if you get rid of the provincial championships but just getting rid of the provincial championships mean that all local derbies will disappear. Anyway for me the key factor in terms of attendance (which strikes me as a good indicator of interest levels) is competitive games as opposed to any rivalries that are solely based on geographical distance which is what the provincial Championship is based on.
Basically a local derby needs to be someway competitive to be attractive.

In Kerry's case last year you can compare the attendance at the game against Tipperary which was in the region of 4,000 and the game against Tyrone which was in the region 24,000.The attendance at the Cork v Kerry game was in the region of 23,000. [I know there are various factors with the games taking place in Tipp, Kerry and Cork but pretty sure all 3 games were televised.] Basically if you want to get people to turn up in a stadium, you need to have games that are likely to be competitive.

I think you are wrong about the importance teams place on the provincial championship.

In the past two seasons all the semi finalists have been provincial winners.
In this day and age fitness, preparation and strategy are sometimes as important as footballing ability.

Taking the provincial championship seriously and planning to win it is imporatnt as it give you a chance to plan out the whole year, you know when your games are if you keep winning, who they may be against etc, what games you need to peak for etc.

If you go down the back door route you spend the month of July not knowing who you will be meeting next, it adds far more uncertainty, more games, possible injuries, suspensions, and a game in the quarters against a non provincial winner

Kerry last year were a good example of this.
They played Cork in the Munster Semi-final, had they won that they would have had a much easier run to the quarters and may have been in better shape come the quarters or possibly simis. However they lost and ended up having to play Westmeath, Tyrone and Clare.
And they did have to put a lot of effort into the Tyrone game and it showed from the emotional scenes after they won it.

keane2097

premierstone wrote: »

So basically just get rid of all the also rans and we have our own 'proper' championship when they are all out of the way! Also under your proposal a Leinster side could end up playing 11 games to win an AI( not including replays) - will there be no club games from April to September?

Keane I'm sure you would as would most poster's from Cork, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone, Kildare and Dublin. Its the mid ranked and weaker teams that need more games not the elite.

I just sort of said I'd like if the quarters onwards were played over more than one leg really. I'm pretty sure everyone besides the quarter-finalists is already out of the way at that stage anyway.

premierstone

keane2097 wrote: »

I just sort of said I'd like if the quarters onwards were played over more than one leg really. I'm pretty sure everyone besides the quarter-finalists is already out of the way at that stage anyway.

It wasn't really directed at you keane I merely quoted you as you had supported the idea, it was the tone of the original comment that seemed to imply that the early rounds and provincial series were nothing more than a hindrance before the real championship started.

Cosmo Kramer

Tom Joad wrote: »

Maybe you should have been clearer .

What jumped out of you post is the we are better than the rest attitude of the noveau riche - its really laughable at this stage - how many times did you use big teams, better sides etc in your post. It's Mayo you are from not Donegal, Dublin or Kerry -as for extra games who does that help the way things stand? it should be about developing the game or levelling the player field. Anyway there is only so many times in one summer I can watch Mayo choke on a big day

It doesn't matter where I'm from - that needs to be kept out of your thinking. There are plenty of examples of Mayo not reaching the quarters since the qualifiers came in - 2001, 2003, 2007, 2008 and 2010 that I can think of. It's not about having the best teams at the moment playing each other more, it is about always having the best teams at a given time playing each other more and the not so great teams playing each other more to mimimise the hammerings. Whether Mayo are a top team or a poor team at any given time is pretty irrelevant - we have bounced between those two categories plenty of times over the years and I'm sure we will again.

Tom Joad wrote: »

Point is it goes in cycles for the majority of teams apart from Kerry who are always near the top and the elephant in the room is being ignored - as long as the provincial championship are being organised as they are at the minute the system will be inequitable and that's what needs to be addressed.

Getting rid of the provincial championships is a complete non-starter. It is just not going to happen. The best you can do is play them earlier, with the games played more closely together and require teams to reach a certain level in them if they want to play in the All Ireland series - which is what basically happens now.

shaggykev

I like what the OP is trying to achieve here and get the smaller teams more games but really isnt that gametime supposed to be achieved against lower rank teams in the league itself

It is complicated with teams perhaps having to play each other again and again with loser rounds and losing winner rounds etc

I'm in favour of merging the league and championship together so every team gets 10 games every season at least, everybody has something to play for and the August bank holiday knockout last eight is maintained
Heres something I prepared earlier(no I'm not a cook)

With the championship so far resembling a tennis major with the big guns cruising through the early rounds like its week one and the championship not really feeling like it will lift off until the August bank holiday many journalists are asking should we change the system of the provincial championships.

Everybody accepts Ulster is the most competitive championship year on year whilst in Munster, Cork and Kerry have one big game against each other and must wait 6 weeks before the quarter finals. Whilst it is true that only Clare in 1992 has won Munster outside the big two in 80 odd years its not fair to dismiss Limerick and Tipperary as cannon fodder. They may struggle to beat the big two but they've rattled a few cages in the qualifiers and especially Tipperary with their underage success may catch of the big two soon. Mayo trashed Galway this year and poor Alan and the boys will be scared for life with that defeat but Mayo did not dominate Connacht until recently and the other sides will either catch up or Mayo will descend in time. Teams move in cycles and those in the wilderness like Galway, Armagh and Meath will someday sit at the top table again.

The biggest problem with the All Ireland series is not weak teams taking on the big guns and getting beat out the gate, its the layout of matches that see Galway wait 6 weeks for their next game, that sees Dublin wait a month, Kerry playing two weekends back to back whilst their next two games will be on the 7th of July and first weekend of August if they win the Munster title. That’s two games in 9 weeks.

The nature of our provinces with unequal teams to some is its charm, to others it’s simply not an equitable system and grossly unfair that makes it heavy odds on that Cork and Kerry make the quarter finals every year whilst Tyrone, Donegal, Derry and Down know they must battle all the way to make the big weekend in August.

So what would be a fairer system? Many want to see provincial systems ran in the early year separate from the championship and then run a 32 team Champions League format. Others advocate making each province 8 teams each with balanced structure. This at least should mean teams should play same amount of games and might look at gaps of only 3 weeks between games.

I would suggest something even bolder to refresh the game. I would do away with the league entirely for a 3 year experiment and replace it with a brand new structure with the championship. I would create 8 conferences of 4 teams based on geography but each team would play 10 games in total. 3 against their conference rivals and 7 against 7 teams from outside their conference that would be randomly determined but would ensure that they face at least 3 or 4 of the top 16 rated sides and the 3 or 4 against the bottom 17-32nd rated sides. Every team would have 5 home and away games (even Dublin). This would mean the smaller teams would find out the level of intensity needed to play the bigger teams, something they seem to only find out in Championship having played a lower standard of Gaelic in Division 2/3/4. The competition would start in late March/Early April and would free up space for the local championships and give certain dates for planners as teams would know teams are playing from the October the previous year. This model is based on the NFL system in America.

So how would it work

The top team in all 8 groups would make the playoffs/final 12.
The 4 best placed other teams would make the playoffs/final 12 too

Of the 8 winners in each conference, the 4 winners with the higest winning record would automatically go through to the quarter finals
The 4 other winners would playoff with home field advantage against the 4 best non winners with a seeded systemto determine who faces who.

That would leave the final 8 in the quarter finals and games would then be played in Croke Park from this point on during August bank holiday

This would mean no more meaningless league, teams could play for a trophy each season as titles would be awarded for winning your conference

We could allow New York host a Tommy Murphy type cup with bottom 7 ranked sides to keep them in some form of competition.

Here is the layout of proposed conferences:

North West Conference
Donegal
Leitrim
Fermanaagh
Tyrone

Northern Conference
Derry
Aintrim
Armagh
Down

Western Conference
Sligo
Roscommon
Galway
Mayo

Midlands Conference
Monaghan
Cavan
Longford
Westmeath

Eastern Conference
Louth
Dublin
Kildare
Meath


South Eastern Conference
Wicklow
Carlow
Wexford
London

Southern Conference
Offaly
Laois
Tipperary
Waterford

South West Conference
Clare
Cork
Kerry
Limerick

So here is a likely scenario if we ran this experiment

Best teams
1- Dublin with 9 wins- win Eastern Conference championship
2-Mayo win 7 games-Wins Western Conference
3-Tyrone win 7 games-Wins North West Conference
4-Cork win 7 games-win South West Conference

these 4 teams are through to the 1/4 finals with best record

The following are the 4 other champions who'll have home field advantage in the last 12
5-Down win 6 games-win Northern Conference
6-Westmeath win 5 games win Midlands conference
7-laois win 5 games in Southern Conference
8-Wexford win 4 games wins South Eastern Conference

Best placed finishers that didn’t win their conference

9-Kerry win 6 games- Will play Wexford in Wexford
10 Donegal win 6 games- Will play Laois in Laois
11-Kildare win 5 games-Will play Westmeath in Westmeath
12- Armagh win 5 games-Will play Down in Down


and the ranking could continue right through to quarter finals. Also benefit of this system is GAA could construct the group games to ensure we always a have a big match every weekend eg. One weekend its Galway v mayo, next weekend Cork v Kerry, next is Donegal v Tyrone, next Dublin v Kildare and so on.

We would keep the local rivalries, have a steady balanced structure, give the smaller teams realistic goals to achieve and give them big days when Dublin and Kerry come to their grounds. The big guns could use the smaller teams as a chance to give fringe players a crack without fear of missing out on the quarter finals and once we make it to the last 12, the real competition will really begin and this
has no problem selling itself.

mickmackey1

Fair play for working all that out but I notice it doesn't do much for Limerick's prospects :pac:

Tom Joad

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

It doesn't matter where I'm from - that needs to be kept out of your thinking. There are plenty of examples of Mayo not reaching the quarters since the qualifiers came in - 2001, 2003, 2007, 2008 and 2010 that I can think of. It's not about having the best teams at the moment playing each other more, it is about always having the best teams at a given time playing each other more and the not so great teams playing each other more to mimimise the hammerings. Whether Mayo are a top team or a poor team at any given time is pretty irrelevant - we have bounced between those two categories plenty of times over the years and I'm sure we will again.



Getting rid of the provincial championships is a complete non-starter. It is just not going to happen. The best you can do is play them earlier, with the games played more closely together and require teams to reach a certain level in them if they want to play in the All Ireland series - which is what basically happens now.

Ok on the first one - your post came across to me as having a major superiority complex - we'll leave it there and I'll accept it wasn't meant like that.

Agree with you on the second point as there are too many vested interests - doesn't mean they can't be tinkered with to even them up a bit or keep them separate from a more balanced championship - to me the provincial system is the root of the issue here.

Tom Joad

shaggykev - I won't quote your post but fair play for the amount of thinking that went in to it - there is a lot of good stuff proposed in it too - unfortunately we all know its way too radical for the GAA.

I would love to see that trialled though.

shaggykev

Cheers Tom Joad. We can only hope

I know it looks radical but it has:
-locality maintanted for rivalry
-even spread of games
-A chance for novelty pairings like Kerry Antrim, Donegal v Carlow
-A chance for TV to have big clashes every single week of the championship
-Instead of 4 provincial titles, we have 8 regional titles
-Quarter finals and even last 12 is pure knockout football and cream will rise to top without constant hammerings handed out to smaller teams

dxhound2005

shaggykev wrote: »

Cheers Tom Joad. We can only hope

I know it looks radical but it has:
-locality maintanted for rivalry
-even spread of games
-A chance for novelty pairings like Kerry Antrim, Donegal v Carlow
-A chance for TV to have big clashes every single week of the championship
-Instead of 4 provincial titles, we have 8 regional titles
-Quarter finals and even last 12 is pure knockout football and cream will rise to top without constant hammerings handed out to smaller teams

Both of those happened in 2009.

legendary.xix

If people want group stages and tiers so badly... could the provinces not be used to decide the level of championship a county competes in in any given year?

8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers could enter 4 groups of 4, with the top 2 from each group going on to the All-Ireland quarter-finals.

The 16 counties not making the All-Ireland groups could be put into the Tommy Murphy Cup as their competition for the summer, with similar format of 4 groups of 4.

Now it's not something I'm entirely for, just musing if it's a possible option for those calling for tiers and group stages.

People go on about a champions league model. The above would give them their champions league group model for teams getting to provincial finals or getting through the qualifiers. They'd also get the Europa League of a Tommy Murphy Cup for counties not making the AI group stage!

The 16 AI group stage could feature 50% less one county of the counties from each province:
Munster - 2 teams - 2 provincial finalists.
Connaught - 2 teams - 2 provincial finalists.
Ulster - 4 teams - 2 provincial finalists and 2 qualifiers.
Leinster - 5 teams - 2 provincial finalists and 3 qualifiers.

The above has 13 of 16 places allocated to the provinces. The All-Ireland winner could be guaranteed a group stage spot as defending champion. The Tommy Murphy Cup winner could also be assured of a group stage spot as reward for going on to win the second tier competition and in so doing give a meaningful reward for that competition. The remaining spot would be the winner of a play-off between a team from each province that just missed out on their respective province's allocated spots..

Under the above, if Mayo won the All-Ireland... in the following year they'd enter the Connaught Championship but would already have qualification for the AI group stage. The remaining teams would battle for 2 places and 1 play-off spot. If Sligo for example won the Tommy Murphy Cup, Connaught would be in the position of having two qualified already with 2 places still up for grabs and also a play-off spot. It'd be up to each province to decide how they allocate places. If a team that has already qualified for AI group stage makes a provincial final, their provincial council should have an agreed alternative option for deciding how counties take the spots available.

pdiddy

was anyone watching the sunday game last night and heard the format O Hara and Mcstay came up with.

They want to split the competing 33 counties (i think its 33) into the 3 levels senior,intermediate,junior like in club level

so the top 16 teams compete in senior level for sam

then the next 8 compete in intermediate level

with the last 9 competing in the junior level

the ranking could be decided using league position which would make the league a bit more important, this would also give the lower and smaller teams more chances to get some game time and compete against a team of a similar level.

Senior
I'd then split the into 4 groups of 4 using an open draw,with top two in each group proceeding to quarters then 4 winners to semis then 2 winners to final

Intermediate
spilt into two groups of 4 with each team playing home and away, top two to semis then 2 winners to final

Junior
same format as intermediate, With maybe New York playing off with the bottom team of division 4 for a group place (not sure if New York would be able to commit to games in ireland)

So what does everyone think?

legendary.xix

pdiddy wrote: »

So what does everyone think?

I'm not in favour of it. I suggested an option above that retains the provincial championships. The top 16 could enter a group stage then if that is what the GAA decide to vote on in Congress!!

One thing I'd point out is the GAA are going to have a provincial qualifier group in next years Leinster hurling championship. Antrim, Laois, Carlow, Westmeath and London will enter a qualifier group where only the top 2 from the group will advance to the Leinster championship knock-out rounds and join the big 5 of Dublin, Kilkenny, Galway, Offaly and Wexford.

It could be an option for provincial qualifier groups to be adopted into all football provinces. Have the 4 lowest counties in each province based on league ranking enter a qualifier group. The top 2 from each group would then join the seeded teams in their province at the knock-out stages.

The 8 teams failing to make their provincial championship could enter the Tommy Murphy Cup as their competition for the summer.

This is similar-ish to something the GAA tried to do a few years ago. They wanted the division 4 counties to enter the Tommy Murphy Cup instead of the qualifiers. It was to give these counties an opportunity to win a cup at their level. It streamlined the qualifiers to be 3 rounds instead of 4. I think it should be re-visited but as I outlined above. All counties would start out with a chance to win the All-Ireland. The lower counties would get at least 3 championship games. If their not in the top 2 of their group after those 3 games, it would be fair to put them into a competition at their level? The Tommy Murphy Cup failed before because division 4 teams felt discriminated against. If their starting out in provincial qualifier groups, they have a fair chance to earn their place in the provincial championship and guarantee a qualifier spot at least.

InchicoreDude

pdiddy wrote: »

was anyone watching the sunday game last night and heard the format O Hara and Mcstay came up with.

They want to split the competing 33 counties (i think its 33) into the 3 levels senior,intermediate,junior like in club level

so the top 16 teams compete in senior level for sam

then the next 8 compete in intermediate level

with the last 9 competing in the junior level

the ranking could be decided using league position which would make the league a bit more important, this would also give the lower and smaller teams more chances to get some game time and compete against a team of a similar level.

Senior
I'd then split the into 4 groups of 4 using an open draw,with top two in each group proceeding to quarters then 4 winners to semis then 2 winners to final

Intermediate
spilt into two groups of 4 with each team playing home and away, top two to semis then 2 winners to final

Junior
same format as intermediate, With maybe New York playing off with the bottom team of division 4 for a group place (not sure if New York would be able to commit to games in ireland)

So what does everyone think?

Not a million miles away from the hurling with Liam McCarthy / Christy Ring etc.

The problem with this is that it reduces the interest in GAA in the lower counties. For example, if Leitrim were playing Mayo in a connacht final, it would attract far more interest (in Leitrim) than a match where they were playing Waterford.

Les Ferdinand

1

Fr Tod Umptious

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Not a million miles away from the hurling with Liam McCarthy / Christy Ring etc.

The problem with this is that it reduces the interest in GAA in the lower counties. For example, if Leitrim were playing Mayo in a connacht final, it would attract far more interest (in Leitrim) than a match where they were playing Waterford.

But which is better for promoting the game in a county, constant failure at provincial/ All Ireland level or some level of success at a lower level.
Plus you must remember than inter-county success is not the be all and end all in many counties, GAA can be just as popular at local level where country honours are what drives peoples interest.

If a second and third tier were to be implemented then that's where counties should start and finish their year, not a system where you got knocked out of the provincial and qualifier systems into the Tommy Murphy Cup.
After one elimination the enthusiasm for a secondary competition is always going to be lower.

Coillte_Bhoy

pdiddy wrote: »

was anyone watching the sunday game last night and heard the format O Hara and Mcstay came up with.

They want to split the competing 33 counties (i think its 33) into the 3 levels senior,intermediate,junior like in club level

so the top 16 teams compete in senior level for sam

then the next 8 compete in intermediate level

with the last 9 competing in the junior level

the ranking could be decided using league position which would make the league a bit more important, this would also give the lower and smaller teams more chances to get some game time and compete against a team of a similar level.

Senior
I'd then split the into 4 groups of 4 using an open draw,with top two in each group proceeding to quarters then 4 winners to semis then 2 winners to final

Intermediate
spilt into two groups of 4 with each team playing home and away, top two to semis then 2 winners to final

Junior
same format as intermediate, With maybe New York playing off with the bottom team of division 4 for a group place (not sure if New York would be able to commit to games in ireland)

So what does everyone think?

Yep, i certainly agree with th principle of splitting the tema sinto different grades be it 2 or 3. One problem with league position determining this is that counties need to know at the start of the year when they will be playing their first and any subsequent c'ship games in order to facilitate club fixtures.

pdiddy

I know this format would mean the end for provincials,but honestly 3 of the provincials are pretty predictable this year, and even Munster it was only ever going to be between cork and Kerry, Dublin will stroll the Leinster final as will Donegal in Ulster and Mayo in Connaught (not being cocky just confident:D).

I think the lower counties would gain much more interest in the team by at least being guaranteed a few competitive matches during the summer instead of going out getting hammered twice and season over.

It might be unfair only allowing 16 teams compete for Sam but in all seriousness There's only ever about 8 teams ever capable of winning sam every year and in the last few years its usually being the same few teams and can't see it changing in the near future.

I also think it would make for better viewing and definitely better matches having two similar level teams playing each other.It would also allow for a better spread of TV coverage for smaller teams and hopefully a bit of more cash for those teams that badly need it. The way things are going it doesn't get competitive until the quarters. Just from the two Mayo matches i've attended the atmosphere was gone by half time against Roscommon, against Galway it was dead before half time with only the entrance of Andy Moran sparking a few cheers.

It would take a bit of planning to incorporate the clubs and there is probably where the problems will be trying to fit all the fixtures in.

InchicoreDude

pdiddy wrote: »

I know this format would mean the end for provincials,but honestly 3 of the provincials are pretty predictable this year, and even Munster it was only ever going to be between cork and Kerry, Dublin will stroll the Leinster final as will Donegal in Ulster and Mayo in Connaught (not being cocky just confident:D).

But that is just this year. On another year, you could have Dublin, Meath, Kildare all fairly even in Leinster, you could have Mayo, Galway, Roscommon etc. even enough in Connacht. These things happen in cycles.

So I dont think it is wise to change the system based on 1 particular season.

I am not advocating the retention of the provincial system by the way.

But which is better for promoting the game in a county, constant failure at provincial/ All Ireland level or some level of success at a lower level.
Plus you must remember than inter-county success is not the be all and end all in many counties, GAA can be just as popular at local level where country honours are what drives peoples interest.

If a second and third tier were to be implemented then that's where counties should start and finish their year, not a system where you got knocked out of the provincial and qualifier systems into the Tommy Murphy Cup.
After one elimination the enthusiasm for a secondary competition is always going to be lower.

Absolutely, I completely agree. Went to a Longford county final a few years ago and a Clare one too in football. And they really put the Galway (and most 'big' counties I guess) county final to shame with the enthusiasm of the supporters.

I can see the merit of a system like this. But I also think the provincial system has merits too which people are very keen to forget about.

Coillte_Bhoy

InchicoreDude wrote: »

But that is just this year. On another year, you could have Dublin, Meath, Kildare all fairly even in Leinster, you could have Mayo, Galway, Roscommon etc. even enough in Connacht. These things happen in cycles.

So I dont think it is wise to change the system based on 1 particular season.

I am not advocating the retention of the provincial system by the way.

Thing is though that for the first time a group of 6/7 counties are beginning to open up a gap between them and the next tier. This could well become a self perpetuating tend, success breeding success etc.

Peanut Butter Jelly

I think that the League should have a bearing on the Championship fixtures. If the order in which the counties finished were used as rankings, and in turn that is their place in the draw. (London and New York are not given rankings due to current circumstances)

League Tables are available here.

Leinster
Dublin L1
Kildare L2
Westmeath L3
Laois L4
Louth L5
Wexford L6
Longford L7
Meath L8
Wicklow L9
Offaly L10
Carlow L11

Ulster
Tyrone U1
Donegal U2
Down U3
Derry U4
Armagh U5
Monaghan U6
Fermanagh U7
Cavan U8
Antrim U9

Munster
Cork M1
Kerry M2
Limerick M3
Tipperary M4
Clare M5
Waterford M6

Connaught
Mayo C1
Galway C2
Roscommon C3
Sligo C4
Leitrim C5
London
New York

Leinster
PR1: L2 V L1
PR2: L5 V L4
PR3: L8 V L7

QF1: L3 V PR1
QF2: L6 V PR2
QF3: L9 V PR3
QF4: L11 V L10

SF1: QF1 V QF3
SF2: QF2 V QF4

F: SF2 V SF1

Ulster
PR1: U9 V U8

QF1: U2 V U1
QF2: U4 V U3
QF3: U6 V U5
QF4: PR1 V U7

SF1: QF1 V QF3
SF2: QF2 V QF4

F: SF2 V SF1

Munster
PR1: M2 V M1
PR2: M5 V M4

SF1: M3 V PR1
SF2: M6 V PR2

F: SF2 V SF1

Connaught
PR1: New York V C5
PR2: London V C4
PR3: C2 V C1

SF1: PR1 V PR3
SF2: PR2 V C3

F: SF2 V SF1