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Fluoride in tap water

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    #2972
    garhjw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    weisses wrote: »
    In bed or if your are really sick in Hospital probably

    You mean the people who are sick from drinking fluoridated water? Is there any evidence of this? Surely, if someone got sick as a result of drinking fluoridated water they would have evidence? And doctors would be telling everyone not to drink the toxic/poisonous water?

    Any real evidence or proof drinking fluoridated water is bad for your health? I've wasted a lot of time reading your posts and links to "research" but can't find anything


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    #2973
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    garhjw wrote: »
    You mean the people who are sick from drinking fluoridated water?

    No ....sick people in general


    Life is precious ... If you feel you are wasting your time then do something that makes you feel good ... No one is forcing you to read this thread


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    #2974
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    weisses wrote: »
    No ....sick people in general


    Life is precious ... If you feel you are wasting your time then do something that makes you feel good ... No one is forcing you to read this thread
    He didn't say he wasted a lot of time reading "this thread" only the bits that were your posts.
    The kind of accuracy and attention to detail we're coming to expect from you really.
    Do you have the water fluoride level in Control location C of that paper you cited BTW, or do you not care about fluoride levels in water at all suddenly.


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    #2975
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    He didn't say he wasted a lot of time reading "this thread" only the bits that were your posts.
    The kind of accuracy and attention to detail we're coming to expect from you really.
    Do you have the water fluoride level in Control location C of that paper you cited BTW, or do you not care about fluoride levels in water at all suddenly.

    Can you point out where I am making a case for adding iodine to the water supply ?


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    #2976
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    weisses wrote: »
    Can you point out where I am making a case for adding iodine to the water supply ?
    You are quoting papers and concluding iodine deficiency cause IQ drop.
    Yes, I heard you the first time, you don't care about public health so you'd prefer if iodine was not added to drinking water to stop this. I just thought that would have been a normal person's first reaction, to try and alleviate public health problems, but you have made your position as opposed to this abundantly clear.

    Mod: Banned for five days.


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    #2977
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    weisses wrote: »
    Can you point out where I am making a case for adding iodine to the water supply ?

    Umpteenth time lucky?
    What is the water fluoride concentration in the control group in the paper YOU cited as evidence of fluoride toxicity?


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    #2978
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Umpteenth time lucky?
    What is the water fluoride concentration in the control group in the paper YOU cited as evidence of fluoride toxicity?

    Between 0.34 ppm and 1.0 ppm ( 10 seconds search on google) And why is this such an issue for you that you want to hear me say it ??

    The paper is interesting because they found adverse effects with low fluoride present.

    Maybe you can explain what the difference is in the effects of fluoride when you have same levels of fluoride you get through the environment or fluoridation.


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    #2979
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You are quoting papers and concluding iodine deficiency cause IQ drop.

    I was referring to similar or even lower fluoride levels as we have here
    weisses wrote: »
    This article deals with Iodine deficiency and fluoride at our levels mentioned on that page

    The article deals with iodine deficiency, but you cannot quote me in saying that I am concluding iodine deficiency cause IQ drop.
    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yes, I heard you the first time, you don't care about public health so you'd prefer if iodine was not added to drinking water to stop this. I just thought that would have been a normal person's first reaction, to try and alleviate public health problems, but you have made your position as opposed to this abundantly clear.

    I do care ...That's why i think we should stop fluoridation

    I just don't agree with your idea of leaving stuff out of the discussion because you think its not directly linked to fluoridation.


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    #2980
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Between 0.34 ppm and 1.0 ppm ( 10 seconds search on google) And why is this such an issue for you that you want to hear me say it ??

    The paper is interesting because they found adverse effects with low fluoride present ?

    Maybe you can explain what the difference is in the effects of fluoride when you have same levels of fluoride you get through the environment or fluoridation.

    They only found adverse effects when coupled with a low iodine intake. So it doesn't provide evidence of fluoride toxicity at Irish levels.


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    #2981
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    They only found adverse effects when coupled with a low iodine intake. So it doesn't provide evidence of fluoride toxicity at Irish levels.

    So Ireland is doing okay ??

    Not .. according to articles below
    The research shows that dietary intake of iodine by Irish women is significantly less than the level recommended by the World Health Organisation.

    http://www.ucd.ie/news/aug06/080306_iodine.htm

    And

    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(08)61390-2/fulltext


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    #2982
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    So Ireland is doing okay ??

    Not .. according to articles below



    http://www.ucd.ie/news/aug06/080306_iodine.htm

    And

    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(08)61390-2/fulltext

    How do these levels compare to the Lin paper? Are they as low?

    The only solution to this issue is to increase iodine intake, no bearing on fluoridation.

    If you stop fluoridation you still have a problem with low iodine intake. If you increase iodine intake the fluoride levels are not important.


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    #2983
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    How do these levels compare to the Lin paper? Are they as low?

    Why not find that out yourself ?

    You said that they only found adverse effects when coupled with a low iodine intake. I found that Iodine intake in Ireland is low

    jh79 wrote: »
    The only solution to this issue is to increase iodine intake, no bearing on fluoridation.

    I thought that it was showed that fluoride was displacing iodine, so it would have bearing on Fluoride, It also could explain the iodine deficiency in Irish people
    jh79 wrote: »
    If you stop fluoridation you still have a problem with low iodine intake. If you increase iodine intake the fluoride levels are not important.

    I think there is plenty of material out there would disagree with that statement.
    Many doctors feel that iodine deficiency is increasing. This is due to lack of iodine in the diet and because certain minerals may be blocking iodine from doing its job in the body. Iodine is in the same mineral family as two other elements: fluoride and bromide. These two elements are readily found in our environment; fluoride is added to water, and bromide is in many chemicals. As exposure to these chemicals increase, there is a growing competition between iodine, fluoride and bromide in the body, which has the potential to obstruct the health and function of the thyroid gland. To counteract this, the body must be given enough iodine.

    http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/food-nutrition/vitamin-supplements/iodine.htm


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    #2984
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Why not find that out yourself ?

    You said that they only found adverse effects when coupled with a low iodine intake. I found that Iodine intake in Ireland is low




    I thought that it was showed that fluoride was displacing iodine, so it would have bearing on Fluoride, It also could explain the iodine deficiency in Irish people



    I think there is plenty of material out there would disagree with that statement.

    The iodine deficiency is through diet. So the only solution is to increase intake. If the iodine levels are normal then there is nothing to worry about re fluoride. The Lin paper isn't very convincing anyways, was it not included in the Harvard meta-analysis , pretty sure it was?

    What material disagrees with my statement?


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    #2985
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    What material disagrees with my statement?

    Added an example in my previous post


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    #2986
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    Many doctors feel that iodine deficiency is increasing. This is due to lack of iodine in the diet and because certain minerals may be blocking iodine from doing its job in the body. Iodine is in the same mineral family as two other elements: fluoride and bromide. These two elements are readily found in our environment; fluoride is added to water, and bromide is in many chemicals. As exposure to these chemicals increase, there is a growing competition between iodine, fluoride and bromide in the body, which has the potential to obstruct the health and function of the thyroid gland. To counteract this, the body must be given enough iodine.

    Our fluoride levels are constant at 0.7ppm.

    Increase dietary intake and the problem is solved.

    The problem here is not fluoride but iodine intake.


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    #2987
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    Increase dietary intake and the problem is solved.

    The problem here is not fluoride but iodine intake.
    and because certain minerals may be blocking iodine from doing its job in the body. Iodine is in the same mineral family as two other elements: fluoride and bromide. These two elements are readily found in our environment; fluoride is added to water, and bromide is in many chemicals.

    The problem is two folded .. your problem is that you only want to look at one side of the issue ...

    Unless you have evidence that the above quote is nonsense


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    #2988
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    The problem is two folded .. your problem is that you only want to look at one side of the issue ...

    Unless you have evidence that the above quote is nonsense

    I've no idea if that is correct as it is the first I've heard of it.

    Assuming it is correct then if fluoride is blocking iodine uptake then the simplest solution is to increase iodine intake.


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    #2989
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    Why is the Lin paper suddenly interesting?

    It is 24 years old, it didn't convince Grandjean in his meta-analysis and it didn't convince the forum for fluoridation in '02.


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    #2990
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    jh79 wrote: »
    I've no idea if that is correct as it is the first I've heard of it.

    Assuming it is correct then if fluoride is blocking iodine uptake then the simplest solution is to increase iodine intake.

    As exposure to these chemicals increase, there is a growing competition between iodine, fluoride and bromide in the body, which has the potential to obstruct the health and function of the thyroid gland. To counteract this, the body must be given enough iodine.

    Your link says exactly the same, increase iodine intake.


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    #2991
    Torakx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Torakx


    jh79 wrote: »
    As exposure to these chemicals increase, there is a growing competition between iodine, fluoride and bromide in the body, which has the potential to obstruct the health and function of the thyroid gland. To counteract this, the body must be given enough iodine.

    Your link says exactly the same, increase iodine intake.

    Yes a lot of people have an iodine deficiency.
    No we shouldn't just put it in the water, just like flouride.
    Step back and use a broader view of things.
    I am pretty sure weisses would not suggest putting anything in water to address a national issue of any kind. Unless maybe it was an issue with every single person and visitor to the country and to exactly the same degree.

    Also this might be of interest for discussion.
    A friend of mine was asking me about flouride and I said somethign about not using the toothpaste, because I felt it might also get into my blood or I may swallow small parts when drinking water after brushing.
    He then said " hmm, can't it be taken in through your mouth?"
    Funny I had told him before about gargling garlic mixed in warm water with some salt to get it into the bloodstream, and had not considered this with flouride.
    I guess intuitively I knew.

    https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120205210041AA9sQYD

    So I just did a quick search. If I have time I might follow it up more.

    According to one answer there, it can be absorbed through the skin as well. So the amount we take in when showering, washing our hands, drinking water, brushing with flouride tothpaste, etc should be considred and added up in relation to the parts per million. If it is true then a small mainority of our flouride intake would be reaching our teeth.
    If it indeed has the power to effect our teeth in such small doses, I wonder still what the much larger doses will do to our bodies.

    Still I would like to know what happens to this flouride in our bodies.
    If it is safe, I am sure it will come out again. Can anyone show evidence of this? Urine samples tested? Stool samples? Sweat?


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    #2992
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    From memory , fluoride is not absorbed through the skin. I believe this was a fluoride alert miss-representation of a paper that showed fluoride absorption through the GI tract.

    Excretion levels for fluoride are between 50-80% the rest goes to your teeth and bones.


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    #2993
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    I've no idea if that is correct as it is the first I've heard of it.

    Assuming it is correct then if fluoride is blocking iodine uptake then the simplest solution is to increase iodine intake.

    Assuming this is correct the Simplest would be to stop fluoridation.

    This is a perfect example of a essential mineral/chemical being suppressed by something the body cannot handle.


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    #2994
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Assuming this is correct the Simplest would be to stop fluoridation.

    This is a perfect example of a essential mineral/chemical being suppressed by something the body cannot handle.

    Fluoride seems to be compounding the effects of an iodine deficiency not causing it.

    If your diet is lacking in iodine how is reducing fluoride going to make up for that? Can you show that with a balanced diet that fluoride is preventing sufficient iodine uptake?

    Fluoride is also an essential mineral / micro nutrient.


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    #2995
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,437 ✭✭✭weisses


    jh79 wrote: »
    Fluoride is also an essential mineral / micro nutrient.

    Not according to sources quoted on this page

    http://fluoridealert.org/studies/essential-nutrient/


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    #2996
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    weisses wrote: »
    Not according to sources quoted on this page

    http://fluoridealert.org/studies/essential-nutrient/


    An non-essential nutrient that improves dental health and has no known adverse effects at the optimal dose. The non-essential bit doesn't really bother me.


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    #2997
    Torakx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Torakx


    jh79 wrote: »
    An non-essential nutrient that improves dental health and has no known adverse effects at the optimal dose. The non-essential bit doesn't really bother me.
    In people with the crrect levels of iodine?
    Aka around 20% of the amaerican population for example. No idea about Ireland and iodine, I'd imagine it's as bad.


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    #2998
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    Torakx wrote: »
    In people with the crrect levels of iodine?
    Aka around 20% of the amaerican population for example. No idea about Ireland and iodine, I'd imagine it's as bad.

    The solution is to make sure you have enough iodine in your diet, if your diet lacks iodine reducing fluoride levels won't help you.


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    #2999
    Torakx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Torakx


    jh79 wrote: »
    The solution is to make sure you have enough iodine in your diet, if your diet lacks iodine reducing fluoride levels won't help you.
    So how do you get more people to intake the right amount of iodine?


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    #3000
    jh79
    Registered Users Posts: 8,216 ✭✭✭jh79


    Torakx wrote: »
    So how do you get more people to intake the right amount of iodine?

    Sodium iodide salt if your diet is lacking in iodine . It's readily available just not very popular here it seems.


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    #3001
    Torakx
    Registered Users Posts: 3,831 ✭✭✭Torakx


    My point is it's the same problem as people not brushing their teeth or quite similar in a way.
    My overall point is that society needs to be educated, not held by the hand and spoon fed medications etc.


This discussion has been closed.
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