what exactly are G8 Protesters protesting about?

Iwasfrozen

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I wrote that quickly, I mean market economy, which you can guess from the context.

Yeah I gotcha.

Karl Stein

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

And yet every centrally planned economy that has been tested has been a failure

Sergeant wrote: »

Can you give me an example of a planned centralised economy that has worked

Here's a better question. Can anyone give an example of a country where central planning has not played a part in its development? All economies engage in central planning to some degree or another.

For example consider a nice clear example of central planning in the US. The interstate highways were planned and constructed by the government under the guise of 'security' when in reality it was a massive socialised boost for the auto and oil (gasoline) industries in the US. At the time the construction of the IH's was the largest public works project in US history. The free market is a myth perpetuated by Capitalists who love the privileges and protection afforded to them by the state and government.

NuckingFacker

Sergeant wrote: »

Can you give me an example of a planned centralised economy that has worked so I can put it in my notebook? Because the 100 or so implementations and iterations so far ended up with economic stagnation at best, and wide-scale genocide at worst.

Of course the old adage that 'they never implemented it like Marx set it out' is often used. You'd think that one of them would have made a better effort though.

Whispers "China..."..

Iwasfrozen

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Here's a better question. Can anyone give an example of a country where central planning has not played a part in its development? All economies engage in central planning to some degree or another.

For example consider a nice clear example of central planning in the US. The interstate highways were planned and constructed by the government under the guise of 'security' when in reality it was a massive socialised boost for the auto and oil (gasoline) industries in the US. At the time the construction of the IH's was the largest public works project in US history. The free market is a myth perpetuated by Capitalists who love the privileges and protection afforded to them by the state and government.

To some extent yes but that's not what we're discussing here, we're discussing full on command economies. And the free market is not a myth it's a theoretical concept. The closer an economy gets to this ideal the better for it's people.

bnt

KyussBishop wrote: »

It's kind of ironic that the (supposedly) anti-authoritarian Libertarians on boards, become apologists for authority when it comes to protesting and economic issues.

Do you even know what "Libertarian" means? People who protest in the view of governments generally want the government to "do something". Libertarians want governments to do less.

Pointing out the futility of predictable, pre-organised protest certainly doesn't make one an "apologist for authority". The governments can see you all coming, hundreds of miles away. They know what you're going to say before you say it, because it's all over the Internet.

You want to effect real change? Start with yourself. The housing boom and bust wasn't the result of government conspiracy: no-one forced people to take out insanely large mortgages to buy property at bloated valuations. It may have been a failure or lack of regulation, but if you have a Libertarian outlook, you don't want or need regulation to tell you what to do, or not to do. Laws are needed to protect people from themselves: the smarter you are - and I don't mean IQ points - the less regulation you need.

Oh, and those of you tilting against "tax havens" ... you do know that one of those "tax havens" is Ireland, right? Why do you think companies such as Apple, Google, GlaxoSmithKline, Amazon etc. have registered offices here?

Nitochris

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What are they?

Well for a start there is no one size fits all but there are examples such as workers collectives based on self management where the "management" is elected directly by the workers and are only in these posts for a set amount of time and can be removed. The people are free to take what they need.
This provides us with an alternative to the authoritarian/libertarian/capitalist models. So instead of workers working for a capitalist who is often in today's context not in the same country the workers work for each other and their communities. (I am using capitalist as an example here, in its place we may not find a human being it may be a company such as Nike or Primark or a state like the old USSR).

Karl Stein

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To some extent yes but that's not what we're discussing here, we're discussing full on command economies.

Oh noes, I don't want to talk about central planning in so-called Capitalist countries. You don't get to decide the parameters of the discussion.

And the free market is not a myth it's a theoretical concept.

It's cited as if it were a real-world fact by fools and liars.

The closer an economy gets to this ideal the better for it's people.

Theoretically.

Iwasfrozen

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Whispers "China..."..

http://gifs.gifbin.com/6401703g69.gif

Nitochris

bnt wrote: »

Do you even know what "Libertarian" means? People who protest in the view of governments generally want the government to "do something". Libertarians want governments to do less.

Pointing out the futility of predictable, pre-organised protest certainly doesn't make one an "apologist for authority". The governments can see you all coming, hundreds of miles away. They know what you're going to say before you say it, because it's all over the Internet.

You want to effect real change? Start with yourself. The housing boom and bust wasn't the result of government conspiracy: no-one forced people to take out insanely large mortgages to buy property at bloated valuations. It may have been a failure or lack of regulation, but if you have a Libertarian outlook, you don't want or need regulation to tell you what to do, or not to do. Laws are needed to protect people from themselves: the smarter you are - and I don't mean IQ points - the less regulation you need.

Oh, and those of you tilting against "tax havens" ... you do know that one of those "tax havens" is Ireland, right? Why do you think companies such as Apple, Google, GlaxoSmithKline, Amazon etc. have registered offices here?

Most "libertarians" don't know what libertarian means.

Iwasfrozen

Nitochris wrote: »

Well for a start there is no one size fits all but there are examples such as workers collectives based on self management where the "management" is elected directly by the workers and are only in these posts for a set amount of time and can be removed. The people are free to take what they need.
This provides us with an alternative to the authoritarian/libertarian/capitalist models. So instead of workers working for a capitalist who is often in today's context not in the same country the workers work for each other and their communities. (I am using capitalist as an example here, in its place we may not find a human being it may be a company such as Nike or Primark or a state like the old USSR).

As long as you're maintaining the market economy worker's collectives will make no difference to the economy. You might as well have the union's run the factories. Only problem then is who represents the workers in a dispute with the unions.

Iwasfrozen

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Oh noes, I don't want to talk about central planning in so-called Capitalist countries. You don't get to decide the parameters of the discussion.

I kinda do if I'm in it.

It's cited as if it were a real-world fact by fools and liars.

It's a model, the closer the economy approaches the free market ideal the more closely it starts to resemble the model and everyone benifits. From rich to poor alike.

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Theoretically.

It seems to work in real life. Look at South Korea compared to North Korea, USA to the USSR or Japan to China pre reformation.

Karl Stein

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I kinda do if I'm in it.

Em.. no.

It seems to work in real life. Look at South Korea compared to North Korea, USA to the USSR or Japan to China pre reformation.

What you're comparing are successful examples of state managed capitalism and communist dictatorships not the free market versus command economies.

Iwasfrozen

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Em.. no.

Em.. Ja!

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

What you're comparing are successful examples of state managed capitalism and communist dictatorships not the free market versus command economies.

Because funnily enough there has never been a country that vested ultimate powers into it's government that didn't become a currupt dictatorship.

Now I know correlation doesn't imply causation but...

Cody Pomeray

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To some extent yes but that's not what we're discussing here

Are we though? I can remember KyussBishop saying recently he doesn't advocate that, people are extrapolating that from his criticism of current monetary and economic policy. Who here is actually advocating a fully planned economy?

Yitzhak Rabin

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Are we though? I can remember KyussBishop saying recently he doesn't advocate that, people are extrapolating that from his criticism of current monetary and economic policy. Who here is actually advocating a fully planned economy?

What are you advocating?

Nitochris

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As long as you're maintaining the market economy worker's collectives will make no difference to the economy. You might as well have the union's run the factories. Only problem then is who represents the workers in a dispute with the unions.

Actually I was assuming the removal of a market economy, these collectives are run democratically so the union is not required. Also note these collectives work among a community in which there are other collectives.

But lets work on the assumption that the market economy is still in place could these collectives work and impact the economy I would say they already do: http://www.estebanmagnani.com.ar/ . By these workers occupying and then running cooperatives they are able to avoid unemployment.

Iwasfrozen

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Are we though? I can remember KyussBishop saying recently he doesn't advocate that, people are extrapolating that from his criticism of current monetary and economic policy. Who here is actually advocating a fully planned economy?

What we have is a mixture, KyussBishop was saying recessions shouldn't be allowed to happen and the government should guarantee 100% employment but the only way to manage that is with a command economy.

Iwasfrozen

Nitochris wrote: »

Actually I was assuming the removal of a market economy, these collectives are run democratically so the union is not required. Also note these collectives work among a community in which there are other collectives.

But lets work on the assumption that the market economy is still in place could these collectives work and impact the economy I would say they already do: http://www.estebanmagnani.com.ar/ . By these workers occupying and then running cooperatives they are able to avoid unemployment.

If there is no market who determines price, output and wage levels? And how can you be sure output is going to match demand?

Also if the workers are able to set their own wage and prevent themselves from being made redundant how is efficiency controlled? You'll end up with a factory paying too many people too much money. This will raise the price and lower the output of the factory.

Cody Pomeray

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

What are you advocating?

more redistribution without nationalisation, and greater planning, not less. people are proposing lots of different alternatives. it's unreasonable to force everyone who opposes the current status quo into one box.

IM0

to those who bitch about the system, come up with a watertight fool proof system and get back to us. the system isnt perfect, but its the best system we have. thank your stars that you live in a society that you can actually protest and not actually get shot or dragged off to be tortured and then killed anyway by 'the gate keepers' of the system.

anyway youll soon grow out of it...or maybe not, yeah probably not actually

Karl Stein

Interesting piece here for the free-market fundamentalists (more mental than fun).

It’s time to start getting honest about a very simple fact: Nobody, but nobody, really believes in free markets. That’s right. Not the Republican Party, not the libertarians, not the Wall Street Journal, nobody.

Here’s why: a truly free market is a perfectly competitive market. Which means that whatever you have to sell in that market, so does your competition. Which means price war. Which means your price gets driven down. Which means little or no profit for you.

Naturally, businesses flee perfectly competitive markets like the plague. In fact, the fine art of doing so is a big part of what they teach in business schools.

http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/12/18/why-free-market-economics-is-a-fraud/

Pug160

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Your usual hodge-podge of lefties and lunatics. A few there will be protesting against war and famine etc., others who don't want to pay taxes for services they use, assorted treehuggers, and a few banging on about 'freeing da weed', but for most though its just a good excuse to throw on the hemp poncho, light up a doob, chant a few slogans and blow whistles with their mates and go home with a smug satisfaction that they "at least did something", whatever that means...

I think that's a bit unfair. I'm by no means a dope smoking hippy but the idea that the world is far too elitist is very real and fair play to anyone who protests against it.

--Kaiser--

Pug160 wrote: »

I think that's a bit unfair. I'm by no means a dope smoking hippy but the idea that the world is far too elitist is very real and fair play to anyone who protests against it.

You think rich people care about poor people protesting? What exactly is this kind of protesting supposed to accomplish?

Zebra3

IM0 wrote: »

to those who bitch about the system, come up with a watertight fool proof system and get back to us. the system isnt perfect, but its the best system we have. thank your stars that you live in a society that you can actually protest and not actually get shot or dragged off to be tortured and then killed anyway by 'the gate keepers' of the system.

anyway youll soon grow out of it...or maybe not, yeah probably not actually

How about the current system without it stealing money from the 99% to bail out the 1% and without all the wars being carried out on behalf of rich corporations to steal resources from poorer countries?

Probably some of things that are being protested about.

Cody Pomeray

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

You think rich people care about poor people protesting? What exactly is this kind of protesting supposed to accomplish?

What could have made you think the G8 protestors are trying to capture wealthy corporations' attention?

G8 protestors are usually trying to either express or increase public awareness of the dangers of globalisation or emerging trends in policymaking, to then spur a political response which is sensitive to public opinion.

awec

If those protesters put as much effort into making themselves useful as they do in to making a nuisance of themselves that would be a start.

They are an absolute waste of space.

Capt'n Midnight

Is this build a bear group ?

What i want to know is will the lunatic fringe of the anti abortion protesters be there as they appear to protesting any where and everywhere at the moment.

The whole G8 gig and the protesters that follow them seem to me to be like an elaborately choreographed charade that ultimately has no meaning its all a farce.

awec

From BBC:

"George Tzamouranis, 48, from Greece, brought up in London's Wimbledon and now living in Belfast, said he turned out to express his anger.

"I'm angry that capitalism is an unjust, unfair system," he said.

"My sister is a stock market analyst, and is immensely wealthy, yet I've been out of work for 25 years."

Mr Tzamouranis said he graduated with a degree in Oriental languages, has been unable to get a job with his education other than casual shift work and remains a victim of capitalism.

"I've been living on the ragged edge since 1991," he said."




Honestly, these people are a parody. Perhaps if he didn't do such an utterly fcuking useless degree he wouldn't find himself so unemployable. Should we set up a system to create a false demand for experts in oriental languages?

Cody Pomeray

that's it awec, ignore anyone with legitimate grounds for protest.

no wonder you didn't post the link.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-22943186

Frankie Dean, 50, from Ballinamallard, County Fermanagh, said he wanted to speak up for gay and transgender people being persecuted in Russia and Northern Ireland.

"Obama and Cameron support equal marriage and have done a lot for the LGBT community," he said.

"But Putin and the Russian people are doing bad things to LGBT people. I want to highlight that.

Elsewhere James Pellatt-Shand, 42, from Canterbury, Kent, said the turn out was less than anticipated and blamed protesters being scared off from travelling to the area, but said he was delighted with the carnival atmosphere.

His main concern was global hunger and poverty, which he claimed could be easily solved with a bit of goodwill between the rich nations.

"But I think they'll be more likely to discuss how many weapons to give Syria than how many children are going to bed hungry," he said, criticising big companies who avoid tax in developing countries.