Is Joan Burton mad?

Taxburden carrier

Means tests are one thing , but if you have been legally obliged as a paye worker to pay into a contributory state pension all your working life and they then decide to cut it because it suits their purpose, it is nothing other than theft.

green_bow

Taxburden carrier wrote: »

Means tests are one thing , but if you have been legally obliged as a paye worker to pay into a contributory state pension all your working life and they then decide to cut it because it suits their purpose, it is nothing other than theft.

such has been the increase in the state pension since 1997 ( 300 % ) , the vast majority of old age pensioners are NET beneifactors , not contributors , the level of PRSI paid was pretty modest in order to qualify

besides , the non contributory is only 11 euro per week less and you get that even you never worked a day in your life , let alone paid any tax

Scortho

green_bow wrote: »

such has been the increase in the state pension since 1997 ( 300 % ) , the vast majority of old age pensioners are NET beneifactors , not contributors , the level of PRSI paid was pretty modest in order to qualify

besides , the non contributory is only 11 euro per week less and you get that even you never worked a day in your life , let alone paid any tax

Which is the one that should be targeted.
A bit stupid of a system where the net benefit of paying for 40 odd years is 11 extra a week.
In my opinion all benefits should be looked at however and rates changed to what they would be if linked to inflation.
A rate increase of 300% smells of someone buying an election.
Unfortunately we can't afford that anymore.

Phill Ewinn

Can't see why people would object to it. There has to be some let up for people being squeezed.

golfwallah

green_bow wrote: »

besides , the non contributory is only 11 euro per week less and you get that even you never worked a day in your life , let alone paid any tax

For clarity, the non-contributory pension is means tested.

green_bow

golfwallah wrote: »

For clarity, the non-contributory pension is means tested.

so is the medical card yet a couple over seventy can earn 60 k per year and still go to the doc for free

Eight Ball

Raise the minimum wage to at least 10 an hour and reduce welfare by 30% across the board. Lets make it worth peoples while going out to work in the morning. Oh and disband job bridge asap.

green_bow

Eight Ball wrote: »

Raise the minimum wage to at least 10 an hour and reduce welfare by 30% across the board. Lets make it worth peoples while going out to work in the morning. Oh and disband job bridge asap.

deregulate the energy and medical sector and the cost for those on low incomes is reduced

GP,s and ESB workers have had no rescession , take the cotton wool of them

computer44

I have seen a couple over the age of 66 and going to their yacht club every Sunday and still claiming the pension. I must admit his a former banker with AIB.

Scortho

green_bow wrote: »

deregulate the energy and medical sector and the cost for those on low incomes is reduced

GP,s and ESB workers have had no rescession , take the cotton wool of them

How would you deregulate the medical sector?

Surely it should be regulated.
Or would you rather tommy down the road with no medical training except mr google diagnosing you with cancer?

computer44

He worked all his life as a banker, ruined the state and he gets 230 euros a week. And his private pension is not even looked at 230k a year.

green_bow

Scortho wrote: »

How would you deregulate the medical sector?

Surely it should be regulated.
Or would you rather tommy down the road with no medical training except mr google diagnosing you with cancer?

surely you know their is a cap on the number of GP clinics which can be opened , we have a surplus of nurses in Ireland but a major shortage of doctors , this is deliberate policy so as to keep a floor under GP and consultant incomes

realitykeeper

The left is sometimes referred to as the loony left and Joan Burton being mad would be there or thereabouts.

Farmer Pudsey

computer44 wrote: »

She did a very right thing, by cutting the pensions of OAPS that have boats in Dalkey. It has to be means tested why are 65 plus getting a OAP when they have enormous wealth. And does Pat Kennys wife claim child benefit.

computer44 wrote: »

I have seen a couple over the age of 66 and going to their yacht club every Sunday and still claiming the pension. I must admit his a former banker with AIB.

You seem to have a gripe against a certain invidual. However how do you plan to stop pensions to this person. Do you propose that we means test it. Means testing has over the years shown itself to be the enemy of the low to mid income worker as generally they have lost benefits because of it.

Do I think that the people who caused most damage in the banks should be punished yes but using withdrawal of pension which may hurt other people I disagree with. Is Pat Kenny and his wife entitled to there CA yes they pay there tax (I hope) like everyone else. The reality is that workers and self employed pay an enormous amount in PRSI and Tax part of the deal is that they will receive an OAP. In Ireland as opposed to most other country's there is no tax allowance for childcare for workers nor is there a tax allowance for children back in the 1980's the government did away with this allowance and added it to the CA this actually benifited the unemployed who got a higher CA because of this while workers got no benefit it was actually a trick give a rise in CA to those not in employment.

We have serious issue's in Ireland with our inability to punish white collar wrongdoing history tells us that these people never go to jail I do not see any change.

green_bow

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You seem to have a gripe against a certain invidual. However how do you plan to stop pensions to this person. Do you propose that we means test it. Means testing has over the years shown itself to be the enemy of the low to mid income worker as generally they have lost benefits because of it.

Do I think that the people who caused most damage in the banks should be punished yes but using withdrawal of pension which may hurt other people I disagree with. Is Pat Kenny and his wife entitled to there CA yes they pay there tax (I hope) like everyone else. The reality is that workers and self employed pay an enormous amount in PRSI and Tax part of the deal is that they will receive an OAP. In Ireland as opposed to most other country's there is no tax allowance for childcare for workers nor is there a tax allowance for children back in the 1980's the government did away with this allowance and added it to the CA this actually benifited the unemployed who got a higher CA because of this while workers got no benefit it was actually a trick give a rise in CA to those not in employment.

We have serious issue's in Ireland with our inability to punish white collar wrongdoing history tells us that these people never go to jail I do not see any change.

im afraid you are greatly mistaken , first of all taxes for the majority in this country are low and secondly , income tax does not go towards pensions , PRSI payments have always been low and todays pensioners did not fund the extremely generous ( by European standards ) benefits they receive today , the generations below them did and are doing , that is the nature of a Ponzi scheme , those at the top rely on those below , the state pension system in Ireland is a complete and utter Ponzi scheme and a day of reckoning will arrive , im thirty five , their is not a hope in hell that when im seventy , the state will be as generous to me as todays seventy year olds

the biggest piece of advice I would give a young person today is start a private pension fund

flutered

RATM wrote: »

But why so ? Why is it that welfare should contract rather than wages going up ?

Since this recession has started the price of everyday utilities has risen and risen. ESB, Gas, Health Insurance have all seen annual 10-15% increases for the last four years, making them now about 40-50% dearer than they were back in 2007-8. Petrol and diesel have also gone up significantly, so has things like Cable/Sky tv, cost of food, post stamps, bus & train fares, motorway tolls and so on. Practically everything that people need on a day to day basis has risen in cost during this recession. But wages have largely dropped for a majority of people in the economy.

A €1 rise in the minimum wage will mean that those working will be better off than those on the dole and will thus incentivise working over claiming benefits. If you cut the dole all you do is make things life more expensive for those on it with no net benefit to those who work and pay taxes, they are just left to suffer the burden the higher costs of living in this economy.

People keep talking about cutting the dole as the solution to our problems. I think instead the solution is ensuring that prices in Ireland become competitive. At the moment we paying 40% above the EU average for electricity, ourselves and Greece are in joint 1st position. We pay amongst the highest prices in Europe for prescription medicines, when the Dept of Health actually just 'asked' for a saving the pharma industry suddenly lopped a few hundred million euro off their bills. How many other instances of over spending are present in the Irish economy ? A lot I would say, the very fact that our energy, a ultility that all of us need both domestically and commercially, is 40% higher than the EU average speak volumes. Economies get stronger on cheap energy but in our case we are being strangled with the highest costs in the EU. If our energy costs are higher than 26 other countries that means the cost of any goods we manufacture are more expensive on the export market and thus in turn making our exports less competitive to EU equivalents which in turn means less exports. What the ESB and Bord Gais up to ? Why are we paying 40% more than the EU average for electricity ? Look at them before you go trying to make the unemployed poorer, the vast majority of whom would love to be working and earning their own money in an economy that is someway competitive.

it is simple really, they are being readied for sale or multinational take over, massive balance sheets, massive prices, no opposition all make for fast foregin takeover/ investment.

Scortho

green_bow wrote: »

surely you know their is a cap on the number of GP clinics which can be opened , we have a surplus of nurses in Ireland but a major shortage of doctors , this is deliberate policy so as to keep a floor under GP and consultant incomes

If there's a cap it should be removed.
Other than that I can't see how you can deregulate the medical industry.
It's an industry where fitness to practice is definitely required.
We have no shortage of medical students though.

Good loser

flutered wrote: »

it is simple really, they are being readied for sale or multinational take over, massive balance sheets, massive prices, no opposition all make for fast foregin takeover/ investment.

That's absurd. The simple reason is the enormous wages Gas, ESB etc pay. They have increased their wages since 2007/8 when the public sector generally was cut.

Average ESB earnings €93,180 in 2012 plus €20 m overtime. Eirgrid €77k.

green_bow

Scortho wrote: »

If there's a cap it should be removed.
Other than that I can't see how you can deregulate the medical industry.
It's an industry where fitness to practice is definitely required.
We have no shortage of medical students though.

even GP,s didn't cut their fees , they could at least provide proper service , in Australia and parts of Europe , you can have an xray in your local GP clinic , here they send people on to overcrowded hospitals , bar paying staff which every business does , the only expense irish GP,s have are a few magazines every twelve months

Farmer Pudsey

green_bow wrote: »

im afraid you are greatly mistaken , first of all taxes for the majority in this country are low and secondly , income tax does not go towards pensions , PRSI payments have always been low and todays pensioners did not fund the extremely generous ( by European standards ) benefits they receive today , the generations below them did and are doing , that is the nature of a Ponzi scheme , those at the top rely on those below , the state pension system in Ireland is a complete and utter Ponzi scheme and a day of reckoning will arrive , im thirty five , their is not a hope in hell that when im seventy , the state will be as generous to me as todays seventy year olds

the biggest piece of advice I would give a young person today is start a private pension fund

Yes taxes are low for certain sections compared to Europe, however these are mostly the lower paid. However income tax on those on middle incomes are higher than the European norm. We hit the high tax rate earlier and these workers receive less benefit in health, childcare and pay higher costs to go to work in travel.

Our biggest problem is our dependency level within the working age population. I be slow to advise the younger generation to start pensions with the history of the pension industry in Ireland and the inability of the government to regulate same. Yes they should and if there employers is providing part of the funds I would do it but I be slow to advise the general population as these are ponszi schemes.

The most generous payments in Ireland are to those that do not work or those that avail of dependency payments during there working life, those on carers, disability (thought there are a significant minority that require same) single parents and the unemployed. Our welfare system is in need of radical reform and I do not think that those that worked and paid tax and PRSI should be first to suffer in there old age.

Scortho

green_bow wrote: »

even GP,s didn't cut their fees , they could at least provide proper service , in Australia and parts of Europe , you can have an xray in your local GP clinic , here they send people on to overcrowded hospitals , bar paying staff which every business does , the only expense irish GP,s have are a few magazines every twelve months

You can always vote with your feet though.
A gp isn't going to cut his fee if he has people in his waiting room willing to pay his fee.
We're also starting to move towards X-rays etc through primary care centres.

Also you should check out gpnow.

computer44

I worked all my life as a woman. Paid my tax and had to give my 2 lovely
special kids over to a childminder.

green_bow

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yes taxes are low for certain sections compared to Europe, however these are mostly the lower paid. However income tax on those on middle incomes are higher than the European norm. We hit the high tax rate earlier and these workers receive less benefit in health, childcare and pay higher costs to go to work in travel.

Our biggest problem is our dependency level within the working age population. I be slow to advise the younger generation to start pensions with the history of the pension industry in Ireland and the inability of the government to regulate same. Yes they should and if there employers is providing part of the funds I would do it but I be slow to advise the general population as these are ponszi schemes.

The most generous payments in Ireland are to those that do not work or those that avail of dependency payments during there working life, those on carers, disability (thought there are a significant minority that require same) single parents and the unemployed. Our welfare system is in need of radical reform and I do not think that those that worked and paid tax and PRSI should be first to suffer in there old age.

you don't seem to grasp what im saying , such has been the increase in the state pension , the bulk of pensioners are NET beneifactors , not contributors , not only did one not need to pay PRSI for all that long in order to qualify for the contributory pension , the amounts were not that high and nowhere near enough to cover todays level of pensioner benefits , income tax has never been for pensions , its for roads , schools , hospitals etc , that's before we even discuss the on the non contributory who get 219 per week , they might never have paid a red cent in tax during their lives

the reality is a whole lot of emotive sentimental rhetoric surrounds the issue of pensioners in this country , " they paid for it during their working lives " is not only mushy headed pap , its factually incorrect , its the younger generations who are propping up pensioners as that's how Ponzi schemes work

green_bow

Scortho wrote: »

You can always vote with your feet though.
A gp isn't going to cut his fee if he has people in his waiting room willing to pay his fee.
We're also starting to move towards X-rays etc through primary care centres.

Also you should check out gpnow.

where I live , GP,s don't take in patients from the next parish over , they tell you to go back to where your registered , its common knowledge that doctors have an unwritten contract with each other that they wont rob each others patients , doctors don't have to cut their fees because their is a shortage of them , any amount of underpaid junior doctors would jump at the chance to set up a GP clinic but industry politics prevents them

typical cartel behaviour

computer44

Look I am up to this hour with my grandson 7 weeks old, emigrating in 18 years to Germany.

Iused2likebusts

its about time oaps get cut.Everyone else in society particularly those under 50 have been shafted since the start of this crisis. More taxes, people losing their jobs, dole cut, childrens allowance cut, public sector cut, people having to emigrate, students having no job prospexts. Never mind politicians being afraid of the grey brigade the non grey brigade should be up in arms if we get hit again because politicians wont do what is fair and share the burden. By the time anyone under 50 gets to oap age you can be sure we will be working till 70 and wont get anywhere close the benefits.What oaps are basically saying is cut the vulnerable children, unemployed, squeezed middle more just dont come near me.With everything thats gone on and the state of our finance a standard 10 euro cut should definetly happen.

green_bow

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

its about time oaps get cut.Everyone else in society particularly those under 50 have been shafted since the start of this crisis. More taxes, people losing their jobs, dole cut, childrens allowance cut, public sector cut, people having to emigrate, students having no job prospexts. Never mind politicians being afraid of the grey brigade the non grey brigade should be up in arms if we get hit again because politicians wont do what is fair and share the burden. By the time anyone under 50 gets to oap age you can be sure we will be working till 70 and wont get anywhere close the benefits.What oaps are basically saying is cut the vulnerable children, unemployed, squeezed middle more just dont come near me.With everything thats gone on and the state of our finance a standard 10 euro cut should definetly happen.

the grey brigade wouldn't be so untouchable if the majority of the rest of the population weren't so sentimental and mushy headed regarding their situation , politicans know they have absolute cover to indulge pensioners , its time people informed themselves about the reality and stopped believing what paid lobbyists like age action Ireland or older and bolder come out with around budget time

ask anyone who sells stuff for a living and they will tell you that its the elderly who are their best customers

L1011

green_bow wrote: »

even GP,s didn't cut their fees , they could at least provide proper service , in Australia and parts of Europe , you can have an xray in your local GP clinic , here they send people on to overcrowded hospitals , bar paying staff which every business does , the only expense irish GP,s have are a few magazines every twelve months

You really haven't got a clue on this topic.

GPs had their fees cut for GMS patients - about 65% to 85% of their daily workload - cut three times. Most have cut private fees also.

GP surgeries have significant staffing and insurance costs that do not equate to what "every business does". Surgery equipment is extremely expensive in Ireland, something retail equipment is not.

Oh - and there's no cap. There never has been. There was a restriction on GMS lists, but that has since been removed.

GPs in Australia having xray gear would generally be down to isolation and lack of access to hospital services - not an issue here when there is barely anywhere in the country less than an hours ambulance from a full scale A&E even after recent closures. Areas that are more than an hour away were more than an hour away before the closures too.

flutered

Iused2likebusts wrote: »

its about time oaps get cut.Everyone else in society particularly those under 50 have been shafted since the start of this crisis. More taxes, people losing their jobs, dole cut, childrens allowance cut, public sector cut, people having to emigrate, students having no job prospexts. Never mind politicians being afraid of the grey brigade the non grey brigade should be up in arms if we get hit again because politicians wont do what is fair and share the burden. By the time anyone under 50 gets to oap age you can be sure we will be working till 70 and wont get anywhere close the benefits.What oaps are basically saying is cut the vulnerable children, unemployed, squeezed middle more just dont come near me.With everything thats gone on and the state of our finance a standard 10 euro cut should definetly happen.

the oaps worked during the 60s the 70s etc, they paid tax at 70%, then there were other bits on top of that, they raised their kids, they bought houses, they paid for ici, aib and the pmpa, now you want to crucify them in their old age, i believe strongly in a thing called karma, check it out.

green_bow

flutered wrote: »

the oaps worked during the 60s the 70s etc, they paid tax at 70%, then there were other bits on top of that, they raised their kids, they bought houses, they paid for ici, aib and the pmpa, now you want to crucify them in their old age, i believe strongly in a thing called karma, check it out.

income taxes are not for pensions , PRSI is and it was only nesscessery to pay a relatively small amount for a relatively short time in order to qualify for the contributory pension , such has been the increase in the state pension since 1997 , most pensioners will draw down four times what they put in , one need to ever have paid any tax in order to receive the non contributory pension of 219 per week and a quarter of pensioners are on this


your falling for the lobby groups line