Property tax, what the hell?

bacon?

I've been away for a while, joint own a house in Dublin. I knew that this property tax thing was coming up, but had no idea how much it would cost.

We've been charged 157EURO, for 6 months! What the hell, so 314EURO for the year... which is outragous.

I thought it was just a one off payment, but was told it's per year? Is that right?

What exactly is this payment for? I seem to remember forking out a shed load for Stamp duty.

And what's the deal with water charges?

We've kept the rent down for the past couple of years, it's about 15% lower than the market value... so, I don't think it's unreasonable to put the rent up a bit.

Can't believe I'm on the other side of the world and still being screwed by the Irish bloody government.

snubbleste

Joe Duffy http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/

Corkbah

bacon? wrote: »

I've been away for a while, joint own a house in Dublin. I knew that this property tax thing was coming up, but had no idea how much it would cost.

We've been charged 157EURO, for 6 months! What the hell, so 314EURO for the year... which is outragous.

I thought it was just a one off payment, but was told it's per year? Is that right?

What exactly is this payment for? I seem to remember forking out a shed load for Stamp duty.

And what's the deal with water charges?

We've kept the rent down for the past couple of years, it's about 15% lower than the market value... so, I don't think it's unreasonable to put the rent up a bit.

Can't believe I'm on the other side of the world and still being screwed by the Irish bloody government.

welcome back to Ireland .... home of the taxable people !! (you can set the property price yourself if you think you are over paying)

you are entitled to put up the rent - but you may loose your tenants or may not be able to get new tenants when the lease is up for renewal.

brightspark

Don't forget you also have to pay the NPPR.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/new_local_authority_charges_on_residential_property.html

bacon?

Corkbah wrote: »

welcome back to Ireland .... home of the taxable people !! (you can set the property price yourself if you think you are over paying)

you are entitled to put up the rent - but you may loose your tenants or may not be able to get new tenants when the lease is up for renewal.

That's what I'm afraid of. We're not greedy landlords, I rented myself for 5 years before buying.

We're charging only 300pm for a double room, they're currently on daft for 350 in the same area.

We don't want to put up the rent, but, if we keep being taxed, property tax, water charges, and what ever new tax is in the post... we may have to.

If it was me, back when I was renting, I wouldn't blame my landlord at all if they put it up, now, I'm only talking around a 5% increase here.

I'm amazed at how they're getting away with this, talk about kicking people when they're down

dissed doc

bacon? wrote: »

I've been away for a while, joint own a house in Dublin. I knew that this property tax thing was coming up, but had no idea how much it would cost.

We've been charged 157EURO, for 6 months! What the hell, so 314EURO for the year... which is outragous.

I thought it was just a one off payment, but was told it's per year? Is that right?

What exactly is this payment for? I seem to remember forking out a shed load for Stamp duty.

And what's the deal with water charges?

We've kept the rent down for the past couple of years, it's about 15% lower than the market value... so, I don't think it's unreasonable to put the rent up a bit.

Can't believe I'm on the other side of the world and still being screwed by the Irish bloody government.

It's per year, and within 5 years it will be around 1% of the property value per year.

The_Conductor

dissed doc wrote: »

It's per year, and within 5 years it will be around 1% of the property value per year.

Pure speculation.

Max Power1

smccarrick wrote: »

Pure speculation.

Well taxes in this hellhole only go one way, and it sure as hell ain't goin down!

hfallada

Ireland is the one of the only economies in the OECD without a property tax. It will only will be a small fraction of the total Government revenue. There was an article in the Irish times how people have put up with massive VAT and excise duties increases which have made everyday items so much more expensive yet few people care.

If you want quality services expect to pay for them.

Phoebas

bacon? wrote: »

Can't believe I'm on the other side of the world and still being screwed by the Irish bloody government.

Don't forget to declare your rental income for tax purposes too.

Phoebas

Max Power1 wrote: »

Well taxes in this hellhole only go one way, and it sure as hell ain't goin down!

It would have to increase more than 5 fold in 5 years to reach 1pct. There isn't a chance in hell.

dcmm

Yup, that!s us.Put up, pay up and shut up.....shrug sigh!

dissed doc

smccarrick wrote: »

Pure speculation.

speculation based on some other countries in europe with property taxes comapring to the value of the homes. It varies for sure, but:

Denmark: 1% of value for homes under 3 million DKK (around 400k euro), and 3% over that.

UK: Council tax is e.g., Band D average UK£1268/yr. Band D house costs are from UK£68-88k. = 1.6% property tax

I would not expect the government do anything but ramp it up ASAP. A fair guess would be 1% of the property value per year.

NIMAN

Appropriate work being 'guess'.


No-one knows for sure.

Max Power1

hfallada wrote: »

Ireland is the one of the only economies in the OECD without a property tax. It will only will be a small fraction of the total Government revenue. There was an article in the Irish times how people have put up with massive VAT and excise duties increases which have made everyday items so much more expensive yet few people care.

If you want quality services expect to pay for them.

But we already pay for them. Property taxes, like in the UK are fine as they pay for something, local services, bins etc. here it is a double tax

Phoebas wrote: »

It would have to increase more than 5 fold in 5 years to reach 1pct. There isn't a chance in hell.

I would put nothing past the scum in government. FF/FG/Lab. Different letters, but they all have two in common. B and S.

washman3

'Taxes are only for little people' and unfortunately you are just one of the little people. you may also be interested to know that you will receive sweet FA for the money you pay. The Government footsoldiers/apologists posting on here will try to lead you to believe all nonsencical theories about this tax. The plain truth is this is a 'bailout tax' designed to protect cronies and vested interests.
Welcome to the ultimate BANANA REPUBLIC..

StillWaters

dissed doc wrote: »

It's per year, and within 5 years it will be around 1% of the property value per year.

Local Property Tax is fixed until 2016, so you think within 2 budgets a newly elected Government, probably a coalition, will raise this 5 fold??

dissed doc

StillWaters wrote: »

Local Property Tax is fixed until 2016, so you think within 2 budgets a newly elected Government, probably a coalition, will raise this 5 fold??

Suddenly we are supposed to believe what they say?

Phoebas

washman3 wrote: »

'Taxes are only for little people' and unfortunately you are just one of the little people. you may also be interested to know that you will receive sweet FA for the money you pay. The Government footsoldiers/apologists posting on here will try to lead you to believe all nonsencical theories about this tax. The plain truth is this is a 'bailout tax' designed to protect cronies and vested interests.
Welcome to the ultimate BANANA REPUBLIC..

Uninformed rant tbh.

Grandpa Hassan

dissed doc wrote: »

speculation based on some other countries in europe with property taxes comapring to the value of the homes. It varies for sure, but:

Denmark: 1% of value for homes under 3 million DKK (around 400k euro), and 3% over that.

UK: Council tax is e.g., Band D average UK£1268/yr. Band D house costs are from UK£68-88k. = 1.6% property tax

I would not expect the government do anything but ramp it up ASAP. A fair guess would be 1% of the property value per year.

The countries that you quote raise the tax differently. They have a residency based tax, paid irrespective of whether you are an owner or a tenant, and goes to local services, with visibility around how it is spent.

That is not what the Irish property tax is. It is simply a wealth tax, and 1% a year would not be a runner unless it were restructured to be like UK council tax (which I would support 100%)

the world wonders

bacon? wrote: »

Can't believe I'm on the other side of the world and still being screwed by the Irish bloody government.

So which country are you in and how much is property tax there?

Marlay

StillWaters wrote: »

Local Property Tax is fixed until 2016, so you think within 2 budgets a newly elected Government, probably a coalition, will raise this 5 fold??

The property valuation is fixed now until 2016, the charges are not. How many councils do we expect to go for the minus 15%?

"From 1 January 2015, local authorities will be able to vary LPT rates -/+ 15% of the national central rate."

Shedite27

bacon? wrote: »

Can't believe I'm on the other side of the world and still being screwed by the Irish bloody government.

What are the property tax rates where you are?

EricPraline

bacon? wrote: »

We've been charged 157EURO, for 6 months! What the hell, so 314EURO for the year... which is outragous.

Not to diminish your sense of outrage, but €315 per year puts you in the 150,001 to 200,000 bracket. To put it in perspective, in Q1 the average price of a standard 3-bed semi-D in North & South Dublin city was €230k and €258k respectively. So there are plenty of people paying the same or considerably more than you to live in an average house in the city. These kinds of figures were being flagged online and in the media last Autumn.

relax carry on

bacon? wrote: »

That's what I'm afraid of. We're not greedy landlords, I rented myself for 5 years before buying.

We're charging only 300pm for a double room, they're currently on daft for 350 in the same area.

We don't want to put up the rent, but, if we keep being taxed, property tax, water charges, and what ever new tax is in the post... we may have to.

If it was me, back when I was renting, I wouldn't blame my landlord at all if they put it up, now, I'm only talking around a 5% increase here.

I'm amazed at how they're getting away with this, talk about kicking people when they're down

You didn't even mention the nppr charge, the prtb charges and the loss of your trs for being a landlord and the 20% reduction in your rental income held by your tenants for being a non resident landlord. It all adds up.

JOSman

Can anybody tell me why NPPR? is being charged when property tax is now in. Double taxation for the same property? FG/Labour give us a break.

This money would be better achieved by taxing the people who dropped us in the Sh1t in the first place?

I'll keep me voice quite now and try to lower my blood pressure before I give myself a heart attack.

TheDriver

JOSman wrote: »

This money would be better achieved by taxing the people who dropped us in the Sh1t in the first place?
.

which is probably about 10 bankers, 10 politicians and 10 speculators in reality. All of which no longer work or live in this country. So taxing the people who caused this mess would be futile.
Of course, the other argument would be that we all are responsible for being part of this mess by buying into it (excuse the pun).......... but thats a long discussion for another day.

stevedublin

brightspark wrote: »

Don't forget you also have to pay the NPPR.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/new_local_authority_charges_on_residential_property.html

....and welcome home!

Phoebas

JOSman wrote: »

Can anybody tell me why NPPR? is being charged when property tax is now in. Double taxation for the same property? FG/Labour give us a break.

This money would be better achieved by taxing the people who dropped us in the Sh1t in the first place?

I'll keep me voice quite now and try to lower my blood pressure before I give myself a heart attack.

The NPPR is being replaced by the LPT.

Grandpa Hassan

Phoebas wrote: »

The NPPR is being replaced by the LPT.

From 2014. They still sneaked in 2 years of charging twice.

Phoebas

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

From 2014. They still sneaked in 2 years of charging twice.

It was hardly sneaked in. They were very upfront about it.

desertcircus

I still don't quite understand why people are angry about this. Would it have been okay to raise VAT or PAYE to raise the same amount? We pay taxes, and this particular one is probably more defensible than an income tax hike or a reduction in welfare funding.

Twoandahalfmen

Tax

Grandpa Hassan

desertcircus wrote: »

I still don't quite understand why people are angry about this. Would it have been okay to raise VAT or PAYE to raise the same amount? We pay taxes, and this particular one is probably more defensible than an income tax hike or a reduction in welfare funding.

I think it would be more acceptable if it were like that in other countries. ie. a tax based on residency, irrespective of whether you're a tenant or an owner. It's the inequity of this that riles me. In that tenants get off scot free. I'd would be 100% behind a UK style council tax

djimi

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

In that tenants get off scot free.

In what way? You think these charges wont be passed down to tenants in the form of a rent increase?

bacon?

Shedite27 wrote: »

What are the property tax rates where you are?

No idea, traveling around Asia at the moment.

Shedite27

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

...a tax based on residency, irrespective of whether you're a tenant or an owner...

Let me guess, you're an owner?

Grandpa Hassan

Shedite27 wrote: »

Let me guess, you're an owner?

I am both an owner and a tenant, having been forced to move with work

And to Djimi, yes, I will be passing this on to my tenants, but it would have been a hell of a lot easier, more effective, and straightforward to police, if the government had just done a residence based tax in the first place!

djimi

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

And to Djimi, yes, I will be passing this on to my tenants, but it would have been a hell of a lot easier, more effective, and straightforward to police, if the government had just done a residence based tax in the first place!

Youre not wrong about that, but its hardly the same as saying that tenants will be getting off scot free! Indeed, its not hard to see tenants getting the raw end of the stick when it comes to this (how many landlords do you think will try and up the rent an even €50 a month to cover a €300 tax?)

Borderfox

hfallada wrote: »

Ireland is the one of the only economies in the OECD without a property tax. It will only will be a small fraction of the total Government revenue. There was an article in the Irish times how people have put up with massive VAT and excise duties increases which have made everyday items so much more expensive yet few people care.

If you want quality services expect to pay for them.

We don't have quality services

OldNotWIse

Phoebas wrote: »

Don't forget to declare your rental income for tax purposes too.

Good point. I asked landlord for details a while back for filling out rent relief form (didnt realise the b*stards were phasing it out at that stage) and was told, "oh no that wont be possible- in other words - no declaration of rental income. I worry sometimes what would happen if I lost my job - how would I claim rent allowance while finding another if property not registered??

Having said that, rent is low so neither myself or OH want to rock the boat.

Phoebas

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I am both an owner and a tenant, having been forced to move with work

And to Djimi, yes, I will be passing this on to my tenants, but it would have been a hell of a lot easier, more effective, and straightforward to police, if the government had just done a residence based tax in the first place!

It would be much more difficult to implement and enforce if it was done on residents rather than owners (or from a Revenue pov, their properties).

Tenants are very mobile whereas properties tend to stay put. Its much more difficult to extract tax from an individual that can move from property to property and even move abroad that from a property owner who can't dispose of the property without clearing outstanding taxes.

Phoebas

Borderfox wrote: »

We don't have quality services

... because they were funded by the magic revenue pot where the taxpayer hadn't a clear notion about how much they we're paying for local services and the people who were spending the money had no power over the raising of the money.

I expect at the next local elections, prospective councillors are going to get grilled about Property tax and what they are going to do with taxpayers money.

Grandpa Hassan

Phoebas wrote: »

It would be much more difficult to implement and enforce if it was done on residents rather than owners (or from a Revenue pov, their properties).

Tenants are very mobile whereas properties tend to stay put. Its much more difficult to extract tax from an individual that can move from property to property and even move abroad that from a property owner who can't dispose of the property without clearing outstanding taxes.

It seems to work very well elsewhere

Phoebas

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

It seems to work very well elsewhere

... and it works even better the way we did it here. The Revenue managed to introduce a whole new tax in less than a year with huge compliance figures.

desertcircus

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I think it would be more acceptable if it were like that in other countries. ie. a tax based on residency, irrespective of whether you're a tenant or an owner. It's the inequity of this that riles me. In that tenants get off scot free. I'd would be 100% behind a UK style council tax

The obvious counterpoint is that the tenant is effectively subsidising the landlord's capital acquisition and that it seems unfair to charge the person who's paying the bulk of the mortgage without getting any equity.

Grandpa Hassan

desertcircus wrote: »

The obvious counterpoint is that the tenant is effectively subsidising the landlord's capital acquisition and that it seems unfair to charge the person who's paying the bulk of the mortgage without getting any equity.

So they should call it a straightforward wealth tax. Instead of sticking with this 'local services' charade!

Shedite27

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

So they should call it a straightforward wealth tax. Instead of sticking with this 'local services' charade!

You could call everything wealth tax so...
Bigger car... more tax
More income.... more tax
More purchases... more tax

It only follows suit that the wealthier people have more valuable houses so should pay more tax.

washman3

Phoebas wrote: »

. The Revenue managed to introduce a whole new tax in less than a year with huge compliance figures.

How much have they recouped from Johnny Ronan,Bernard McNamara,Derek Quinlan,Bailey brothers,Sean Dunne,Fingers and Seanie, etc,etc,etc.

Phoebas

washman3 wrote: »

How much have they recouped from Johnny Ronan,Bernard McNamara,Derek Quinlan,Bailey brothers,Sean Dunne,Fingers and Seanie, etc,etc,etc.

In LPT? I've no idea.
Did you want to discuss the Property Tax or just have a general whinge?

murphaph

desertcircus wrote: »

The obvious counterpoint is that the tenant is effectively subsidising the landlord's capital acquisition and that it seems unfair to charge the person who's paying the bulk of the mortgage without getting any equity.

The tenant is doing no such thing. The tenant is paying the landlord for a service and the landlord is providing that service. There's no subsidy. A roof over your head costs money no matter what way you go about it. You can pay a landlord rent for it or you can pay a bank interest for lending you money to buy your own.

In Germany the property tax can be passed on in full to the tenants as long as it's specified in the lease (not many leases fail to specify it!). The UK uses a slightly different system but ultimately the tenant also pays (in a more direct way). Why should Ireland be any different?