realistic improvement from strength training?

joe40

Hi everyone

I am going to ask a question which I know will be impossible to answer with any degree of certainty but i am interested in general ideas.

I am just starting a strengthening programme (2 weeks into in at this stage) to run alongside some basic cardio work - running cycling etc.

With the help of the internet and talking to the guy in the gym I have started doing the following weights exercises:

Squat: 50Kg x 10 (3 sets)
Deadlift 50Kg x 10 (3 sets)
Bench 45 x 10 (3 sets)
Lunges with 10 kg dumbell 10 each leg ( 3 sets)
Lat pull down on machine x 10 (3 sets)
Shoulder press 12.5 kg x 10 (3 sets) (some sets at 15kg)
Bicep curl 12.5 kg x10 (3 sets)
Tricep dips or sometimes skull crushers (I think that what he called them)
Core exercises - sit ups, plank, leg raises etc

My question is in two parts:
(a) Is this session ok to start out with
(b) What sort of realistic targets in terms of weight should I be aiming for in theses exercises - what would be a good level of improvement

Bit of background about myself:

I am 43 year old male 5 ft 11 and about 14 stone (so probably at least excess stone or stone and a half there) I would consider myself to be reasonably fit I ran a few 10k races last year in about 50 mins and then most of last summer/autumn was spent training for Dublin marathon which I completed in 4 hr 17 mins. (no sniggering I was very happy with that)

In terms of weight loss I probaly know enough of what I have to do (implementing is the hard part) and I also have a fair idea of what realistic targets for me would be if I trained hard for running but as far as weights are concerned I have no idea.

I know I am well below what most guys lift in the gym and that is absolutely not a problem I am just interested in what you think might be a realistic target with for example 3 momths training 2 to 3 times a week.

As I said at the start an impossible question to answer with any certainty but any ideas would be welcome.

frozenfrozen

Tricep dips are a similar movement to lowering yourself into a bath, where your arm are behind you, whereas skull crushers are a completely different movement and with weights, youtube both names and you'll see what I mean.

You should go to the gym and find out your maximum weights for those different exercises, where your form stays as close to perfect as possible, i.e. your ACTUAL max weight not swinging the weights and half reps. Write all of these down in a little notebook that I'd recommend you bring to every session. You should then pick a weight for each of those exercises which will allow you to do 9 reps and then have to really physically exert yourself to get the last rep out, and I mean REALLY push to get that 10th one.

The most important part of this will be that you have good form. Watch a lot of youtube videos and try to copy the movements even at home without any weights, and when you're at the gym watch yourself in the mirror and see if you're doing it right. It's good that you don't seem to have any bias over needing to be lifting extremely heavy weights and make sure you stay this way and always keep to the right amount of weight for you to lift at that time.

You say 2-3 times a week, make that 3 times a week and stick to it. Choose muscle groups for each of the sessions so that you're giving your body some time to repair in between. You should be working hard enough in the gym that after a session you'll know exactly where is going to hurt the next morning. If you find yourself thinking that the exercises are getting easier - write it down in your notebook, up the weight and check your form and keep going.

joe40

Thanks a million for getting back with advice so soon.

The weights I quoted are what I am lifting at the moment after some trial and error and they are pretty much the max I can lift for 10 reps.
This morning I had 50 Kg for the the bench press. I managed 10 reps for the first set but only about 8 for the second set so reduced the weight to 45 kg and was able to do 10 reps in final set. I also increased the deadlift to 60kg for two set but reduced weight for final set.

I will follow your advice about the youtube clips. Of all the exercises the deadlift is the one I am most worried about doing incorrectly I could be wrong but it seems to me to be an exercise where you could do a lot of damage doing it incorrectly.

I intend to follow your advice about keeping good form ahead of chasing heavier weigts but what would be considered good progress over the next 6 to 8 weeks in these exercises.

To make a comparison with running If I concentrated on running and trained hard I might manage a 45 to 47 min 10k but I know less than 45 mins would not be realistic for me.
Are there any parallels for weights based on my starting point or are there just too many variables.

Thanks again for advice

Woofstuff

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Write all of these down in a little notebook that I'd recommend you bring to every session. write it down in your notebook, up the weight and check your form and keep going.

I find using a A6 clipboard to track my progress is helping no end. Its small and convenient.

Clipboards: http://www.amazon.co.uk/TIGER-Tiger-Mini-Clipboard-301438/dp/B002XUOQ1O/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371317705&sr=8-1&keywords=a6+clipboard

A6 Paper: http://www.papercutz.co.uk/a6-paper-137-c.asp

Also attached is a spreadsheet where you can print out the A6 pages. St.Wt is the target weight for the session.

If you increase your weight you can Jot it down in the next column.

LuckyLloyd

What are your goals? Maximal strength or muscular hypertrophy?

Everyone is different so it's virtually impossible to provide an idea of what progress you can expect or what your limitations might be. Diet, rest and allowing adequate recovery will all significantly impact rates of progress. A beginner to weight training can make a lot of initial progress over the first six to nine months and add weight to the bar regularly if strength is their goal.

Have you had any mobility issues performing the squat and deadlift? Use your mobile to video examples of your movement every so often as it's hard to feel when you're doing something incorrect.

zeitner

Are you doing all those exercises at each gym session? If so thats a full body workout and will take the body a bit to recover and longer to progress. My advice is split the exercises if you can hit the gym often enough for upper and lower body.
Try the exercises with the best bank for your buck as the saying goes - deadlift, squats, bench press, shoulder press, pullups. Get the form correct on these first and the weight will start adding up after. These will use the most body parts and muscle so will aid in burning fat and building muscle.
Nutrition is priority number 1 and the thing everyone really looks after badly. Get this right and it will help your energy, muscle building and recovery big time. Youtube I would avoid for guidance and its worth spending a 1 on 1 session with a qualified strength and conditioning instructor just to get the foundations right.

joe40

Thanks to everyone for advice received so far.

I was deliberately doing a full body workout to get me started. I had originally intended 6 to 8 weeks (starting third week now) and then maybe get a bit more systematic about things and seek further advice.

Zeitner are you suggesting just doing the exercises you listed and leaving out the others. (Decent sets of pullups might be a problem until either strength goes up or weight comes down - preferably both)

In terms of goals I would like to concentrate for a while on improving overall strength but still work on cardio and endurance.

For the strength work I was planning 3 times a week with 10 to 12 reps for each exercise with 3 sets. (Mostly based on internet research which can confusing and contradictory)
Would this seem to be a reasonable starting point.

Also how much other exercise would you suggest the sort of things I was doing was running, spin classes and some other gym classes using lighter weights but lots of reps. (These were quite hard and really tired the muscles but would they work along side the type of strendthening exercises I am doing now)

Last question do people combine cardio and weights sessions in one go or maybe morning and afternoon. For now when I really push the weghts session (relative to my ability of course) I have very little left for anything else. Do I just HTFU and get on with it or space out the sessions.

Thanks for help so far.
I am going to look into the whole nutrition aspect. So far I was concentrating on avoiding the rubbish food but maybe I should find out more about what to actually eat.

LuckyLloyd

If training for strength, a 3 sets by five reps with as many extra reps as you have in you on the last set is a good idea imo. You should also be looking to put more weight on the bar every time you complete 3 x 5 with good form. Additionally, if you're also continuing cardio work between sessions, I would suggest lowering the volume of exercises in each workout:

A)

Squat
Bench
Barbell Row (3 x 8)



Squat
Barbell Overhead Press
Deadlift (1 x 5)

So in your example of currently squatting 50kgs, you may go down and go:

8 @ bar
5 @ 40kgs
5 @ 45kgs
3 x 5 @ 50kgs with as many extra reps over five as you have on the third set

Then next time down you aim for:

8 @ bar
5 @ 40kgs
5 @ 45kgs
3 x 5 @ 52.5kgs with whatever extra on the third

If you get 3 x 5 with good form then you add on 2.5kgs the next time down and so on and so on. You'll want to load the press and rows in smaller jumps of 1.25kgs; and the Deadlift in jumps of 5kgs. And obviously you amend your warmups over time to lead you logically to your work sets.

Alternate each session never doing them without a day's rest in between.

===========

Seems simple and you might think it's too little but it will amount to a fairly taxing workload and with warmup sets and stretching beforehand (and rest between work sets) you'll take 45mins to an hour to complete it. This will allow you to exhaust beginner gains over the first 6 months or so. Eventually you'll reach a point where you can't add more weight to the bar on a movement, so you reset down and see if you can push past. But you'll eventually have reset on everything at least once and it's time to look into more complex programs.

You can throw in some core work, pull ups and bicep curls after the above sessions too as you feel like it.

If you start a thread in the fitness sub forum and post up videos of your form people will give you some useful pointers for free too.

Of course, this is just one way to skin the cat. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

alphabeat

lucky has it down perfect

i would add that for shoulder press- your bar weight will increase over two to three weeks - instead of every week
as shoulder press is not a natural movement ( we rarely lift stuff above our head )

and you should also recover 3 times as long between sets on shoulders than other body parts to allow more power , else you will flag quick

if you eat well ( DIET is vastly important ) and focus - you will gain loads of stenght and an impressive physique doing this .

good luck , it takes alot of dedication and discipline though.

also note - its better to train in early morning - i do it from 630 7.15 - 730 am .

joe40

Thanks a million guys for the replies. The advice is much appreciated and sounds interesting. It is a good bit different to what I was doing and something I would like to try.

I might try to concentrate on the strength training to see what gains can make. At the moment I am probably trying to do a bit of everything and end up doing nothing properly

I would just like to check a few things to make sure I am taking them up correctly.

Does (A) and (B) refer to two different sessions on different days.

So a gym session would consist of three exercises:

So for the squats the
8 @ bar,
5 @ 40 Kg,
5 @ 45 kg

These would be like warm up sets or maybe a bit harder and the other part, the:

3 x 5 (3 sets of 5 repetitions at 50 Kg to start) will be what you refered to as the work set where I am really pushing the work and using a weight where I would not manage much more than 5 reps.

So a weekly/fortnightly plan for the weights sessions might be:

Mon: Session A
Wed Session B
Fri: Session A
Sun: Session B
Tue: Session A etc

Then other cardio/core work in between times.

So for the time being the weights exercise I need to concentrate on and make sure form is correct are the 6 you have mentioned for session A and Session B. and progress the weight on these as far as i can for 5 reps at a time.

Should be fun but sounds like something I could get started with.

Thanks again

LuckyLloyd

joe40 wrote: »

Does (A) and (B) refer to two different sessions on different days.

Spot on

joe40 wrote: »

So a gym session would consist of three exercises.

You could if you wanted throw in some accessory core work or bicep stuff if you wanted, but the main focus of your training would be just the three movements, yes.

joe40 wrote: »

So for the squats the
8 @ bar,
5 @ 40 Kg,
5 @ 45 kg

These would be like warm up sets or maybe a bit harder and the other part, the:

3 x 5 (3 sets of 5 repetitions at 50 Kg to start) will be what you refered to as the work set where I am really pushing the work and using a weight where I would not manage much more than 5 reps.

So, the goal would be to maintain good form and movement throughout all sets (warmup and work). But yes, we want to start off light and take a few sets to get us in the groove before we attempt the most taxing sets of the day.

joe40 wrote: »

So a weekly/fortnightly plan for the weights sessions might be:

Mon: Session A
Wed Session B
Fri: Session A
Sun: Session B
Tue: Session A etc

Then other cardio/core work in between times.

Three times a week would be a fine start by the way.
A Monday
B Wednesday
C Saturday

etc, etc. Just alternate them and make sure you have at least a day's rest in between.

joe40 wrote: »

So for the time being the weights exercise I need to concentrate on and make sure form is correct are the 6 you have mentioned for session A and Session B. and progress the weight on these as far as i can for 5 reps at a time.

As I say, it's one way to skin the cat that I've seen work for people before. I don't have all the answers. But I do think you were doing too much volume in your above listed program.

joe40

Thanks for that

I will make a start on that plan this evening. I will keep the max weight at what I was at for the 10 reps to start for this evening and progress (hopefully) from there.

I just saw in your plan the deadlift is 1 x 5. Does this mean you are recommending keeping deadlift to one set only?

Also, I was using dumbells for overhead press I found that my right arm was a bit stronger than left so was trying to balance them out better. I thought that using a barbell might allow the stronger right arm to overcompensate. (that might be nonsense, probably is)
Anyway is there an advantage of barbell over dumbbells?

Would you recommend that the overhead press is done seated or standing or does it make any difference?

Thanks again for advice so far - much appreciated.

thegreatiam

joe40 wrote: »

Thanks for that

I will make a start on that plan this evening. I will keep the max weight at what I was at for the 10 reps to start for this evening and progress (hopefully) from there.

I just saw in your plan the deadlift is 1 x 5. Does this mean you are recommending keeping deadlift to one set only?

Deadlift is a tiring exercise. So you only need the one set. its like revving your cars engine. in a squat for eg the engine revs a little on the way down, hit the red line when you begin the up part and slows again.

With a deadlift you start in the red zone, and stay in the red zone til you drop the weight. So it really batters your engine.
1 set is sufficiant if you want an easy recovery.

joe40 wrote: »

Also, I was using dumbells for overhead press I found that my right arm was a bit stronger than left so was trying to balance them out better. I thought that using a barbell might allow the stronger right arm to overcompensate. (that might be nonsense, probably is)
Anyway is there an advantage of barbell over dumbbells?

Would you recommend that the overhead press is done seated or standing or does it make any difference?

Thanks again for advice so far - much appreciated.

barbell presses mean you can add weights in more managable increments equally. Its likely your dumbel set goes from 8-10-12-14 etc. so that will be a 4kg increase (2kg each hand)
with a bar bell you can add 1.25kg each side much easier for a 2.5 kg progression.

seating press doesn't stabalise your lower back as well as standing.
While you are standing you can use your glutes, abs and lower back to tense up and create a solid base to press from. this makes it easier to go bigger.

You will prefer the barbell press eventually.

you can google starting strength wiki and there is a good section on presses in the 'main lifts section with a lot of video guides to help you learn it.

joe40

Thanks for that.

You actually pre-empted my next question

I was going to ask for recommendations for good websites to provide accessible info for a beginner??

thegreatiam

i was just on it to recommend for another thread ;-)

SS wiki is very good, the whole programme is for barbell training. you can learn a lot from it.
I would also advise getting the book.
you can also look for stronglift5x5 there is a lot of cross over between the 2 sites so you will click onto it eventually.

Doc Daneeka

Seems some good advice given here already. Would agree that if strength gain is your goal the sets of 10 is possibly too high.

You should find a downloadable spreadsheet on SS which will help you programme. Put in where you are and it will give weight and reps for each session. You should see good gains over the first period.

alphabeat

my understanding is that in say 5 reps by 5 sets of squats . the last rep or two of set 5 should be near failing but doable .
( so = rep 24 and 25 should be a struggle of all 25 reps )

its about volume instead of weight - to gain long term strenght .

you grow slower than a body builder - but you get stronger in real terms

joe40

First of all Thanks to everyone who provided feedback and advice it was very useful and much appreciated.

Following on from guidance and advice here I completed a routine of 3 x 5 lifts for squat, bench and barbell row yesterday evening and then did a bit of research on the two novice programmes "Starting strength" and "stronglifts 5x5" and I now hopefully intend to use one of these as a program to get me started and see where I can progress to.

The starting strength has 3x5 sets for each exercise but the problem I have with this program is that it includes "power cleans" which I would not be comfortable doing at this stage or without proper instruction from someone.

The "strong lifts" program has more lifts (5x5 as the title suggests) but the guy has two youtube clips going through each session. I watched one of these last night and thought it was quite good with barbell row instead of power cleans being the only difference in the actual exercises.

I am therefore considering following the Stronglift 5x5 program for the next few weeks. (really just to avoid the power cleans at this stage) I have downloaded their spreadsheet and intend start at week 3. These are lifts I can do fairly comfortably at this stage (the barbell overhead press been the main unknown)

Thats the plan anyway we shall see.

I would be interested in hearin people's opinions on these programs.
Is the progression in weight too fast?? 2.5 kg increases on some exercises might beat me fairly quickly but I will give it a try.

As I said any opinions would be appreciated and thanks again for the help/advice received so far.

thegreatiam

start low, lower than you think you should. even using just the bar (20kg)
the trick is to nail the form as you progress. Youll build up weight very quick, so if you start high then you quickly get to weights that will be too heavy for poor form.

If youre benching 50kg and pushing for reps now then youre about as strong as I am. (im doing a similar programme and im up to 55 on bench this week)
I started bench with just the bar, squat with 35kgs

and dont push to failure yet. do the 5 reps at your work weight and add the weight next session, do those 5x5 then add etc. Going to failure right now will slow your recovery.

joe40

Thanks. Great to hear from someone doing similar program. You're probably right about being patient for now the weight does build up fairly quickly.

Week 3 of the stronglifts program has each exercise starting as follows:

Squat 35kg (5x5)
Bench press 27.5 (5x5)
overhead press 27.5 kg (5x5)
Barbell row 37.5 kg (5x5)
Deadlift 55Kg (1x5)

I don't want to be changing the program but squat, press and row will be comfortable at these weights for 5x5, however a 55kg deadlift and 27.5 kg overhead press will be doable and probably not to failure for 5 reps but fairly close to the most I can do.

I might however repeat week 3 if it proving challenging starting out rather than going back but I will try to be patient and not push too much too soon.

thegreatiam

to be honest, you dont need to follow his numbers.

just get a weight you can do easily with perfect form. then each work out add 2.5 kgs or so to the bar.

dead lift you can probably add 5kg to start and 2.5kgs later.

overhead press maybe add 1.25 kg or add 2.5kg every other workout.

my press stalled at 30, so ive been grinding that for a few workouts while everything else has increased. my squat near doubled in the time my press went up by 7,5 kgs. but im doing a different programme to strong lifts.

horsenaughton

joe40 wrote: »

Thanks. Great to hear from someone doing similar program. You're probably right about being patient for now the weight does build up fairly quickly.

Week 3 of the stronglifts program has each exercise starting as follows:

Squat 35kg (5x5)
Bench press 27.5 (5x5)
overhead press 27.5 kg (5x5)
Barbell row 37.5 kg (5x5)
Deadlift 55Kg (1x5)

I don't want to be changing the program but squat, press and row will be comfortable at these weights for 5x5, however a 55kg deadlift and 27.5 kg overhead press will be doable and probably not to failure for 5 reps but fairly close to the most I can do.

I might however repeat week 3 if it proving challenging starting out rather than going back but I will try to be patient and not push too much too soon.

Just wondering two weeks into this program how you are finding it? Was thinking of starting something similar any advice???

rubadub

joe40 wrote: »

Squat: 50Kg x 10 (3 sets)
Deadlift 50Kg x 10 (3 sets)
Bench 45 x 10 (3 sets)

Your bench is relatively quite high, I thought this was a typo until you said 50kg for 10 reps later.

I have nothing more to add, just pointing it out, others might have missed it and might have comments about it. Might not be anything to worry about. You might be able for regular dips at this stage.