Timberframe. Building it yourself

tootsy70

Just wondering is it legal to build your own timberframe home here in ireland without using a kit company to build it. I seen a documentary on C4 a few months ago and always wondered what the regs would be here in ireland for the same situation.

At a guess i would prob think it wouldnt be to difficult to errect one if you get a good chippy in who is really good at his job. What ive seen from the documentary that the inner skin is only made up off 4x2s, exterior ply and some breathable felt stapled on to the outside of the ply.

The house in the documentary wasnt to difficult as it was only a dormer sq bungalow and i would go as far and stick my kneck out and say that anyone with basic DIY skills could knock one up if they'd set themselves up some sort of a jig so all the measurements are exactly true for each panel. Even if they'd double up with exterior ply, it sure would strengthen it alot more.

Does anyone know what the situation would be here in ireland concerning such a build. The reason why i ask this question is that my 2nd cousin is coming into some money in the coming years and he was always wanting to build his own home and i remember chatting with him briefly about it a few years ago. Just wondering could he go down this route instead of using a kit company.

Hootanany

A Chippy could easily do that for you but would need a bit of help for lifting the panels.
PS one that knows how to construct Timber framed Houses there is a bit to do on lintels and corner sections.

tootsy70

Hootanany wrote: »

A Chippy could easily do that for you but would need a bit of help for lifting the panels.
PS one that knows how to construct Timber framed Houses there is a bit to do on lintels and corner sections.

Isnt the lintels just 9x4s(if you can get them in that size) or 2x 9x2's. Cant see it being to much of a problem knocking a section up with lentils in it.

Hootanany

They have to be on edge jst get a good chippy that knows his stuff.

tootsy70

Can seeing this being to difficult to knock up

tootsy70

Hootanany wrote: »

They have to be on edge jst get a good chippy that knows his stuff.

What do you mean by on edge ?

tootsy70

Another question i have about the inner skin. Would there be much cost difference between paying a chippy to construct the inner skin of a house to using a block layer to build it in block. Labour,materials etc..

Poor Uncle Tom

Full compliance and certification with the following is a must if you are ever going to be able to sell the house in the future.

Structural work of timber
I.S. EN 1995-1-1: 2004
http://www.gradst.hr/Portals/9/PropertyAgent/1167/Files/3300/EN_1995-1-1.pdf

SR 11 : 1988
http://www.coford.ie/media/coford/content/publications/projectreports/quantification.pdf

BS 5268: Part 2: 1991
http://www.scribd.com/doc/54449618/BS-5268-2-2002-Structural-Use-of-Timber-Code-of-Practice-for-Permissible-Stress-Design-Materials-and-Workmanship

tootsy70

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Full compliance and certification with the following is a must if you are ever going to be able to sell the house in the future.

Structural work of timber
I.S. EN 1995-1-1: 2004
http://www.gradst.hr/Portals/9/PropertyAgent/1167/Files/3300/EN_1995-1-1.pdf

SR 11 : 1988
http://www.coford.ie/media/coford/content/publications/projectreports/quantification.pdf

BS 5268: Part 2: 1991
http://www.scribd.com/doc/54449618/BS-5268-2-2002-Structural-Use-of-Timber-Code-of-Practice-for-Permissible-Stress-Design-Materials-and-Workmanship

If you are compliant with the worked needed to be done, who certs it for you.

Poor Uncle Tom

tootsy70 wrote: »

If you are compliant with the worked needed to be done, who certs it for you.

Whoever designed, specified and inspected the frame for you.

worded

Carpentry - sure all you need is a hammer and saw.
Plumbing - sure all you need is some plumbers tape and spammers.
Surgeon - sure all you need is a scalpal
Space travel - sure all you need is a rocket and a space suit

Go for it op !

Hootanany

worded wrote: »

Carpentry - sure all you need is a hammer and saw.
Plumbing - sure all you need is some plumbers tape and spammers.
Surgeon - sure all you need is a scalpal
Space travel - sure all you need is a rocket and a space suit

Go for it op !

Yep piece off cake:D

muffler

And dont forget to invite us all to the house collapsing warming party

tootsy70

Folks, i didnt say i was going to do it. Its just a pipe dream at the moment :P:P

I do understand the jokes but isnt this the way they were built in the US and Canada in the early years of this construction method. What would be so different from using a factory to building it from scratch onsite. you just have to look at a roof construction to see it can be done ie- trusses and traditional cut roofs. One is made in a factory and the other onsite.

martinn123

worded wrote: »

Carpentry - sure all you need is a hammer and saw.
Plumbing - sure all you need is some plumbers tape and spammers.
Surgeon - sure all you need is a scalpal
Space travel - sure all you need is a rocket and a space suit

Go for it op !

muffler wrote:

And dont forget to invite us all to the house collapsing warming party

Bit harsh Guys, it's just a general inquiry, the OP asked some Questions.

3.
who certs it for you.
2.
Would there be much cost difference between paying a chippy to construct the inner skin of a house to using a block layer to build it in block. Labour,materials etc..
1.
Just wondering is it legal to build your own timberframe home here in ireland without using a kit company to build it.

tootsy70

tootsy70 wrote: »

Can seeing this being to difficult to knock up

Looking at these pics i cant see anything that a factory can do to a chippy. It looks so straight forward to me. All you have is 8x4s exterior ply, 4x2s and other size timbers for around the openings for windows and some breathable felt on the outer layer. Just scratching my head as to why you guys think it cant be done. Were talking about a chipy with years of experience building houses, not some buck ejit with a hammer and nails,lol. And another thing, like i mention in the OP, wouldnt adding another sheet of ply on the inner side give it double the strength.

Not having a dig at yous but IMO yous should know better seeing as yous would be well clued up in building houses to become a mod in a construction forum.

sinnerboy

tootsy70 wrote: »

Looking at these pics i cant see anything that a factory can do to a chippy. It looks so straight forward to me.

tootsy70 wrote: »

yous should know better seeing as yous would be well clued up in building houses to become a mod in a construction forum.

Where have you been all our lives :rolleyes:

sydthebeat

Timber frame SYSTEMS are certified.
The processes, materials and be workmanship are certified.

ANYONE wanting to build their own timber frame would need to get certified as a frame manufacturer or they'd be in a quagmire of issues, especially if they borrow to build. Under building regulations materials and processes must be certified.

It is NOT simply a case of copying what you see

sydthebeat

tootsy70 wrote: »

wouldnt adding another sheet of ply on the inner side give it double the strength.

That statement alone shows EXACTLY why its not simply a diy job.

Every system is engineered structurally by qualified engineers in a factory.... So unless you hold comparable qualifications stay well clear of advising on this.

Poor Uncle Tom

tootsy70 wrote: »

I do understand the jokes but isnt this the way they were built in the US and Canada in the early years of this construction method. What would be so different from using a factory to building it from scratch onsite. you just have to look at a roof construction to see it can be done ie- trusses and traditional cut roofs. One is made in a factory and the other onsite.

Well, this shows just how far you still have to go before you understand exactly what it means to use timber as a framing material for an entire house in our climate. How or what people did as a construction method 80 or 100 years ago on another continent can not be adopted directly for use here as an acceptable modern building technology.

Also attempting to compare the construction of a roof which is very easily ventilated and is generally constructed a distance off the ground and generally have far lower loads that say ground floor walls of a dwelling. Damp proofing, ventilation, insulations, etc., etc., are all very different and have to be treated differently in walls to those in roofs.

martinn123 wrote: »

Bit harsh Guys, it's just a general inquiry, the OP asked some Questions.

Either contribute or please don't comment, it is very easy to see why some people are skeptical given the OP's seemingly very simplistic comparisons and observations. I would think the people who are making the humorous comments actually know what is involved in doing what the OP is asking.

tootsy70 wrote: »

Looking at these pics i cant see anything that a factory can do to a chippy. It looks so straight forward to me. All you have is 8x4s exterior ply, 4x2s and other size timbers for around the openings for windows and some breathable felt on the outer layer.

Where to position frame vents, how many? Where to position fire stopping and what kind to use? Exactly what parts of the frame should be ventilated? What size of studs for loadbearing walls to carry RSJ's? or framing large wells? etc.,

tootsy70 wrote: »

Just scratching my head as to why you guys think it cant be done.

Nobody said it can't be done, actually I've done a few. What is being said is that there is a vast amount of work involved it's not just a case of slapping 4" x 2"'s together and working from there.

tootsy70 wrote: »

Were talking about a chipy with years of experience building houses, not some buck ejit with a hammer and nails,lol.

Yes, that's what you will need to build the house. But you are getting ahead of yourself. The entire frame has to be designed first. That's not just the floor plans, but the entire frame itself.

tootsy70 wrote: »

And another thing, like i mention in the OP, wouldnt adding another sheet of ply on the inner side give it double the strength.

what about ventilating what you are now making internal timbers? Did you ever stop to consider that there may be a reason why this is not commonly done?

tootsy70 wrote: »

Not having a dig at yous but IMO yous should know better seeing as yous would be well clued up in building houses to become a mod in a construction forum.

Who is this directed at? Not having a dig at yous but yous come across as being very naive.

sinnerboy

Looking at this from the narrow prism of thermal insulation
It appears that the photos posted will facilitate construction that may have been acceptable in 2003. The "4x2" studs providing a series of voids to be filled with 100mm insulation.



To comply with recent iterations of energy conservation regulations one really needs to be thinking in terms of providing at least 200mm of thermal insulation in an external wall . so we need to be thinking either of 200mm deep studs and if you look closely at the images below - examples of in "inner" and "outer" series of frames (see next image ) .



In this type of construction the location of the structural board ( Plywood / OSB) is usually on the internal face where it can assist in controlling vapour and air tightness. When looking at timber frames incorporating such quantities of insulation there is a very real risk that condensation moisture may be trapped in that wide wall thickness and for that reason one must be very careful to select the correct type of board for the outer lining board. Ply or OSB will simply trap such moisture.

This can't be left to a DIYer or even to the most skillful of tradesmen. It can only be assessed by competent professionals trained to assess hygrothermal moisture movements in multi layer assemblies. ( Thats the law of the land by the way ) . Now I am not such a trained person which is why as another poster has stated we must have certification of systems to select from.



Or put it this way - one may look at a blockwork shell of a house and think that laying one block on top of another is so simple for the blocklayer and leap from that idea to conclude that therefore the entire building process is simple , which is analagous to what the OP appears to be thinking.

Hootanany

Should be a double sole plate in that pic

tootsy70

sinnerboy wrote: »

Looking at this from the narrow prism of thermal insulation
It appears that the photos posted will facilitate construction that may have been acceptable in 2003. The "4x2" studs providing a series of voids to be filled with 100mm insulation.



To comply with recent iterations of energy conservation regulations one really needs to be thinking in terms of providing at least 200mm of thermal insulation in an external wall . so we need to be thinking either of 200mm deep studs and if you look closely at the images below - examples of in "inner" and "outer" series of frames (see next image ) .



In this type of construction the location of the structural board ( Plywood / OSB) is usually on the internal face where it can assist in controlling vapour and air tightness. When looking at timber frames incorporating such quantities of insulation there is a very real risk that condensation moisture may be trapped in that wide wall thickness and for that reason one must be very careful to select the correct type of board for the outer lining board. Ply or OSB will simply trap such moisture.

This can't be left to a DIYer or even to the most skillful of tradesmen. It can only be assessed by competent professionals trained to assess hygrothermal moisture movements in multi layer assemblies. ( Thats the law of the land by the way ) . Now I am not such a trained person which is why as another poster has stated we must have certification of systems to select from.



Or put it this way - one may look at a blockwork shell of a house and think that laying one block on top of another is so simple for the blocklayer and leap from that idea to conclude that therefore the entire building process is simple , which is analagous to what the OP appears to be thinking.

Would filling the block cavity with insulation plus the 2003 type timberframe comply with the 200mm insulation needed

sinnerboy

Never fill this cavity unless you want to rot the house down.

tootsy70

sinnerboy wrote: »

Never fill this cavity unless you want to rot the house down.

Was thinking this myself but how can a block built house cavity be filled and a timer frame cant. I would have thought that the breathable felt would sop and moisture from entering the timber but then again, im not an clued up on timber frame construction. When you mention the 200mm being in the inside, sure that still wouldnt be a major problem IMO for a chippy.

sinnerboy

I don't think I can help you any further . With anything.

sydthebeat

tootsy70 wrote: »

..... how can a block built house cavity be filled and a timer frame cant. I would have thought that the breathable felt would sop and moisture from entering the timber but then again, im not an clued up on timber frame construction. .........

Theres prob no need for an extra side of ply because it will just add cost however it prob would make it stronger. An example of this would be that a 4skin blocked house would be stronger than a 2 skin blocked house but theres no need to build 4 skin because its throwing money away.

wouldnt adding another sheet of ply on the inner side give it double the strength.

please take this the right way but statements such as the above shows that youve a LONG way to go before you fully understand the physics and science of building. Your attitude is very much the oirish "sure anyone can do that" which devalues the education and professionalism that is required when home building.

I suppose the obvious reason load of people dont building their own timber frames on site is because of all the reasons already stated.
If it was so easy.... why arent loads of people doing it?? My father is a master carpenter and he wouldnt dream of attempting a timber frame build on site because he realises the amount planning and structural calculations that need to be done beforehand.

you keep saying "ill just do what they do in the factory, same design etc" ..... well do you think
(a) a timber frame company is just going to hand you over a design drawing
(b) they will just hand you over a copy of their structural calculations
(c) they will just hand you over the written specification and structural strengt classes of all the timbers involved
(d) they will just hand you over the design details for separate elements of construction??
(e) they will just hand you over their building regulation compliant reports dealing with energy efficiency, fire, ventilation, structure, access and use, workmanship, heat producing appliances, sound, site preparation, hygiene ??


Theres a reason they are mass produced in a factory.... that reason is its BLOODY EXPENSIVE AND COMPLICATED to get their own systems structurally designed and certified.
You refer to getting an engineer to design this, fair enough... if hes willing to design and certify this work for you and your financial institution is willing to accept thsi certification.... fire ahead

but i think youd be in for a rude awakening.

muffler

tootsy70 I have removed your post above which was a reply to Poor Uncle Tom's post. We dont allow text to be inserted into a quoted post. Please see Section 1.6 of the forum charter

You may insert quote tags around the text you wish to quote or alternatively highlight the respective bits of text and click on the "quote" icon at the top of the reply box.

tootsy70

muffler wrote: »

tootsy70 I have removed your post above which was a reply to Poor Uncle Tom's post. We dont allow text to be inserted into a quoted post. Please see Section 1.6 of the forum charter

You may insert quote tags around the text you wish to quote or alternatively highlight the respective bits of text and click on the "quote" icon at the top of the reply box.

Is it completely erased because if not, can you send me my txt and ill fix it.

Outkast_IRE

I was in Germany last year, visting a factory and a few site visits of a company which prefrabs the timber frame with insulation leaving the correct conduits in for plumbing, electrical etc.

From what I seen in Germany, the way they do it is.

1. Have the Slab/Basement ready with services such as telephone, waste, water supply accounted for , so theres no drilling or digging afterwards.

2. Hire a mini crane for a day or two. (They liked to get it done in one Day).

3. Arrange all pre-fab components to arrive on site, with a team of about 6 men ready to put them together with the help of the crane.

4. Usually in a standard 2 or 3 bed detached house they would have the house weathertight by the end of the first day all going to plan.

5. Once the house is up and weathertight your laughing, you can tip away at the plumbing and electrical as necessary.

These were available to passivhaus-standards.

muffler

tootsy70 wrote: »

Is it completely erased because if not, can you send me my txt and ill fix it.

I'll reinstate it for 30 minutes but after that its gone.

tootsy70

Just throwing this into the mix here. Here we have a house built just using timber without the ply,breathable felt etc.. and uses mud also. How is it its legal to build a house of this type yet not what im suggesting.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=www.mudandwood.com&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mudandwood.com%2F&ei=Jwi7UezdKPPB7AanjoDwCw&usg=AFQjCNFQOMXXSiOG_GHDE79w0qkBNTPUVw&bvm=bv.47883778,d.ZGU

tootsy70

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Well, this shows just how far you still have to go before you understand exactly what it means to use timber as a framing material for an entire house in our climate. How or what people did as a construction method 80 or 100 years ago on another continent can not be adopted directly for use here as an acceptable modern building technology.

Also attempting to compare the construction of a roof which is very easily ventilated and is generally constructed a distance off the ground and generally have far lower loads that say ground floor walls of a dwelling. Damp proofing, ventilation, insulations, etc., etc., are all very different and have to be treated differently in walls to those in roofs.


Either contribute or please don't comment, it is very easy to see why some people are skeptical given the OP's seemingly very simplistic comparisons and observations. I would think the people who are making the humorous comments actually know what is involved in doing what the OP is asking.


Where to position frame vents, how many? Where to position fire stopping and what kind to use? Exactly what parts of the frame should be ventilated? What size of studs for loadbearing walls to carry RSJ's? or framing large wells? etc.,


Nobody said it can't be done, actually I've done a few. What is being said is that there is a vast amount of work involved it's not just a case of slapping 4" x 2"'s together and working from there.


Yes, that's what you will need to build the house. But you are getting ahead of yourself. The entire frame has to be designed first. That's not just the floor plans, but the entire frame itself.

what about ventilating what you are now making internal timbers? Did you ever stop to consider that there may be a reason why this is not commonly done?

Who is this directed at? Not having a dig at yous but yous come across as being very naive.

Why even say this. The house would be build the exact same way and design as one built in a factory. Im not trying to redesign or do anything different, just construct on site using same building regs,timbers and measurements.



All the same damps proofs,vents etc.. would all be exactly the same if teh house was built in a factory or onsite. Cant see why you even mentioned this.



Can you tell me what can be done in a factory that cant be done on site concerning this construction method.


,

Your asking me questions that i cant answer but when designing a house, an engineer could. All i asked was can it be done, not wanting to know all the regs and why and why nots.



Well you just answered it for me. ?Yes it can be done, thank you




Totally understand this even before i made this thread.


Prob because 1 side of the panel with ply is strong enough. Theres prob no need for an extra side of ply because it will just add cost however it prob would make it stronger. An example of this would be that a 4skin blocked house would be stronger than a 2 skin blocked house but theres no need to build 4 skin because its throwing money away. Have you ever consider this!

tootsy70

Outkast_IRE wrote: »

I was in Germany last year, visting a factory and a few site visits of a company which prefrabs the timber frame with insulation leaving the correct conduits in for plumbing, electrical etc.

From what I seen in Germany, the way they do it is.

1. Have the Slab/Basement ready with services such as telephone, waste, water supply accounted for , so theres no drilling or digging afterwards.

2. Hire a mini crane for a day or two. (They liked to get it done in one Day).

3. Arrange all pre-fab components to arrive on site, with a team of about 6 men ready to put them together with the help of the crane.

4. Usually in a standard 2 or 3 bed detached house they would have the house weathertight by the end of the first day all going to plan.

5. Once the house is up and weathertight your laughing, you can tip away at the plumbing and electrical as necessary.

These were available to passivhaus-standards.

Have seen this construction method done on videos on yourtube and even on grand designs on C4. A great way to build house and very quick indeed however they do ask for quite a high costs compared to other building methods, ie- block houses etc..

Outkast_IRE

tootsy70 wrote: »

Have seen this construction method done on videos on yourtube and even on grand designs on C4. A great way to build house and very quick indeed however they do ask for quite a high costs compared to other building methods, ie- block houses etc..

The costs on this end of things are high, but your getting a home which should have excellent airtightness due to being able to do the detailing really well in the factory.
And in a country such as Ireland getting a house weather tight in a day or so onsite is a major advantage.

You will also save costs as you wouldn't need much of a heating system, there can also be conduit etc preinstalled for electrical systems.

Expensive, but I think it should cut back on labour costs in other sections of the build.

sydthebeat

tootsy70 wrote: »

Just throwing this into the mix here. Here we have a house built just using timber without the ply,breathable felt etc.. and uses mud also. How is it its legal to build a house of this type yet not what im suggesting.

no one is suggesting its illegal. look at my last post

what we are telling you is that its not as simple as you make out.
you were the one suggesting things that would cause the structural timbers to rot for gods sake


what do you know of the certification, or lack of, of the build you linked to?
what do you know of the work carried out to provide such certification, if any?
perhaps they used an architect / engineer who specialises in this type of construction for the certification

Of course, methods of construction "outside of the norm" are built, but its up to those building to prove that they comply with regulation. As difficult as it is to prove this to a building control officer, trying to prove it to a financial institution is another matter altogether.


edit:

ps its obvious that build is a one off and not a copy of a factory made timber frame

martinn123

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Either contribute or please don't comment, .

Thanks for the invite,

A topic not mentioned as yet, accepting the Structural, Certification issues, is cost.

The factory produced product given the computerisation, of cutting lists, maximisation of lengths, and other factors, has to be far superior to your ''Chippie'' cutting on site.

A factory setting to fabricate, given the machinery etc. has to be better, than what you seem to propose

In addition their buying power in purchasing in bulk, as opposed to your buying ''locally'' has to be superior.



One caveat, the last timber frame co, I worked for ( a few years ago ) had a conflict between production, and sales.

The Sales Team did not appreciate, the drip feed of rejected timber product, into production, over time, to save on costs, something to look out for.

yoloc

tootsy70 wrote: »

Another question i have about the inner skin. Would there be much cost difference between paying a chippy to construct the inner skin of a house to using a block layer to build it in block. Labour,materials etc..

Calculate how much blocks needed for the inner skin of block work, lintels, sand, cement,water proofer against the 4x2s,ply,felt and Labour for both and see what you come up with. My cousin did this when building his timber frame in 2005 and im near sure there wasnt much difference. Im sure someone on here could back me up on this.