Would anyone prefer if you could pay road tax monthly?

kilkenny31

Why can't road tax be paid by direct debit monthly?

I am unemployed and struggle to pay my motor tax (even for 3 months), often this means i do not pay it for 3-4 months at a time and get the form stamped at the Garda Station to say it has been off the road. I do not like doing this but have to because i can't afford it at the time.

I try to save money but its hard, i could get an electricity bill for more then i expected or something goes wrong with my car etc etc.........

Would anyone else here prefer if there was a pay monthly by direct debit option? I read recently that Phil Hogan ruled this out because of the €20m extra a year the Dpt makes from 3month and 6month increased charges.

Surely this could be offset buy doing what insurance companies do and charging and interest rate for pay monthly customers (not in favour of this but it probably the only way the government would ever agree)

Anyone else be in favour of this? Doesn't really apply to people who can afford to pay it yearly.

Mr E

Yeah good idea. The problem is they would need to issue a new disk each month, which is a huge overhead.

kilkenny31

Mr E wrote: »

Yeah good idea. The problem is they would need to issue a new disk each month, which is a huge overhead.

Not necessarily, could just issue it for a year like insurance companies do an if a persons direct debit failed to many times they would be forced to send it back or pay a penalty. I think any changes that needed to be made to the system would be easily offset by the extra revenue taken in from everyone paying their motor tax online.

hognef

Mr E wrote: »

Yeah good idea. The problem is they would need to issue a new disk each month, which is a huge overhead.

In this digital age, you'd imagine it should be possible to do without the disc, but in the meantime...

My car is €636 annually. Alternatively €179 quarterly, or €716 for the year.

A credit card loan of €636 @ 20% interest works out as €59 per month, or €707 for the year.

In other words, paying annually by credit card would cost roughly the same as four quarterly payments, and would allow you to pay monthly (through your credit card bill).

This obviously assumes that 1) you have a credit card, 2) you haven't already maxed it out, and 3) you have the discipline to keep paying every month.

kilkenny31

hognef wrote: »

In this digital age, you'd imagine it should be possible to do without the disc, but in the meantime...

My car is €636 annually. Alternatively €179 quarterly, or €716 for the year.

A credit card loan of €636 @ 20% interest works out as €59 per month, or €707 for the year.

In other words, paying annually by credit card would cost roughly the same as four quarterly payments, and would allow you to pay monthly (through your credit card bill).

This obviously assumes that 1) you have a credit card, 2) you haven't already maxed it out, and 3) you have the discipline to keep paying every month.

Don't have a credit card and i'm unemployed so probably won't get one. This idea is really aimed at people who are finding it hard right now and are on low incomes, who are paying high tax rates because they can't afford newer cars.
I just think its something the government could do pretty easily and would more then likely end up taking in extra tax as a result.

hfallada

The bigger issue is that the government gives more environmentally friendly cars lower tax. Although I agree with promoting more environmentally friendly cars. Only people with decent incomes can afford to get the lower co2 emissions car. The government should possibly lower road tax and increase duties on fuel spreading out the cost more evenly

hognef

hfallada wrote: »

The government should possibly lower road tax and increase duties on fuel spreading out the cost more evenly

And thereby penalise those who have no choice but to commute great distances to work? And effectively incentivise everybody to live in Dublin?

kilkenny31

hfallada wrote: »

The bigger issue is that the government gives more environmentally friendly cars lower tax. Although I agree with promoting more environmentally friendly cars. Only people with decent incomes can afford to get the lower co2 emissions car. The government should possibly lower road tax and increase duties on fuel spreading out the cost more evenly

I couldn't agree with you more hallada, but that's a different debate, my main aim of this thread is to find out is it something that people would be interested in, do people think it would make life a slight bit easier. Or is it a non runner.

Sam Kade

I just saw a 1 litre lpg car on donedeal in county Down tax £10 for year from what I could gather. Then they go on about bringing our tax system in line with other countries :mad:

Cookie_Monster

They should bring it in but ensure it's a a higher rate than the quarterly so in the above €636 example make it €64 per month

kilkenny31

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

They should bring it in but ensure it's a a higher rate than the quarterly so in the above €636 example make it €64 per month

Yeah i agree, the only way it would be fair is if it was more than paying it quarterly.

Con Logue

I solved the problem by selling my car.

n97 mini

OP, what's your motor tax?

A sub 1000cc car still only costs €56 a quarter. Newer cars are even less.

corktina

i'd be in favour of people paying monthly...in the case of some people, I'd be in favour of them paying full stop!

I can't see a problem with having a ddm and a fine if you default on it once you have your disc.

veryangryman

Actually why cant they just do it digitally - ie the cop scans/presses in your reg and gets its details from the Database - doesnt sound difficult.

_Kaiser_

veryangryman wrote: »

Actually why cant they just do it digitally - ie the cop scans/presses in your reg and gets its details from the Database - doesnt sound difficult.

You're in a country where getting databases to link up properly is hard enough, and resources in AGS are being stretched thinner as it is

But I agree though.. monthly payment options (WITHOUT the ridiculous penalty premium they already charge for quarterly/half-year payments) would definitely help a lot of people AND I'd wager increase compliance.

€50 a month for example is a lot easier to manage than €200 a quarter (which realistically is generally taken from a month's salary anyway)

kilkenny31

n

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You're in a country where getting databases to link up properly is hard enough, and resources in AGS are being stretched thinner as it is

But I agree though.. monthly payment options (WITHOUT the ridiculous penalty premium they already charge for quarterly/half-year payments) would definitely help a lot of people AND I'd wager increase compliance.

€50 a month for example is a lot easier to manage than €200 a quarter (which realistically is generally taken from a month's salary anyway)

It would have to include an extra charge, Phil Hogan has already said that the government would be down €20m a year without it, so it would definitely not happen with out the increase charges for paying it monthly.

Nemeses

What annoys me is why is my 2ltr 2002 car different from a 2008 ltr car.....

However,

Monthly would be handy, In my case that would work out at ~60 odd a month - If that came out at the end of the month for me, Suit me down to the ground!


But alas, We can but dream!

_Kaiser_

kilkenny31 wrote: »

It would have to include an extra charge, Phil Hogan has already said that the government would be down €20m a year without it, so it would definitely not happen with out the increase charges for paying it monthly.

Ah but you're forgetting where this money goes..

It doesn't go back into roads like you would think a "motor" tax might do - it goes into the central "piss-it-away" pot that is government taxes

Even when some of it DOES make it back onto the tarmac, the majority of that spend will be on the guys holding the shovels looking at the one guy who might actually be doing some work.

Our government gets enough money as it is - it's the waste that's the problem! But as long as we're happy to accept service charges/admin fees like we do in this instance sure why WOULD they be forced to reform?

aman23

Tax the fuel! more you drive the more you pay. car sitting outside your house/workplace = free.
engine size, year of car irreverent.
no cost to state, printing disks, policing tax dodgers.
its simples.

veryangryman

aman23 wrote: »

Tax the fuel! more you drive the more you pay. car sitting outside your house/workplace = free.
engine size, year of car irreverent.
no cost to state, printing disks, policing tax dodgers.
its simples.

Stating the obvious but...they already do that. And no they shouldnt do it more. Any increase in recent years of anything has never resulted in some oppositely beneficially decrease in others. Its the gov. Just give them 2 fingers is my opinion at this stage.hell even the opposition want to put in new taxes. I could cry.

Victor

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

€50 a month for example is a lot easier to manage than €200 a quarter (which realistically is generally taken from a month's salary anyway)

You might look at the maths of that again.

aman23 wrote: »

Tax the fuel! more you drive the more you pay. car sitting outside your house/workplace = free.
engine size, year of car irreverent.
no cost to state, printing disks, policing tax dodgers.
its simples.

Cue everyone using green diesel.

Nemeses

Victor wrote: »

You might look at the maths of that again.

Cue everyone using green diesel.

Would love too, But I discovered Vegetable oil instead.

aman23

veryangryman wrote: »

Stating the obvious but...they already do that. And no they shouldnt do it more. Any increase in recent years of anything has never resulted in some oppositely beneficially decrease in others. Its the gov. Just give them 2 fingers is my opinion at this stage.hell even the opposition want to put in new taxes. I could cry.

so for example, if you were paying 1800 euro road tax each year, close to the max i know. you would be against abolishing it, in favor of, lets say for example a 0.5 cent per litre increase in fuel price?

now, not Stating the obvious but... with the current system, your already paying both! and both can increase at the whim of the powers that be. And you wouldn't be in favor of getting shot of the 3,6 month or annual kick in the nuts, that is road tax!
:eek:

_Kaiser_

Victor wrote: »

You might look at the maths of that again.

Ah you know what I meant I've recently switched from a 2.0 TDI to a 3.0 TDI on the old system so it works out more than either now (worth it though!)

Macy0161

kilkenny31 wrote: »

It would have to include an extra charge, Phil Hogan has already said that the government would be down €20m a year without it, so it would definitely not happen with out the increase charges for paying it monthly.

It'd only have to be the same charge as paying quartly to be no loss to the state. They might get more people paying monthly, who currently pay annually, and actually increase revenue. If they had it as an option for PAYE workers through that system, it wouldn't even be much cost to process.

I don't see why it'd be any more open to abuse than an insurance disk paid by direct debit.

SeanW

Con Logue wrote: »

I solved the problem by selling my car.

Wow, that's really a well thought out "solution" ...

dowlingm

Monthly payments would presumably increase the state's costs of processing these payments also?

Certainly I think the days of tax discs should be behind us, unless there is deemed to be a significant number of people who tip off the guards that people are driving around without one.

I don't understand why motor tax is being fingered here per se, and why the alternative is deemed to be putting it on your credit card balance. We all have lots of outgoings in our lives and maybe some of the annual ones have to be financed rather than paid for by cash, but the alternative should be a 12.68pc or less loan from your local credit union if your bank doesn't offer suitable personal financing. If the car is paid off then perhaps a more attractive arrangement might be obtained by offering said car as security which might leverage a loan enough to cover not just the motor tax but a few hundred of other high-interest debt as well, while paying it down on a monthly basis over the next year.

SeanW

Monthly payments would presumably increase the state's costs of processing these payments also?

For the amount of money they charge, it shouldn't be a problem.

If the car is paid off then perhaps a more attractive arrangement might be obtained by offering said car as security which might leverage a loan enough to cover not just the motor tax but a few hundred of other high-interest debt as well, while paying it down on a monthly basis over the next year.

What happens when the annual road tax is more than the value of the car?

kilkenny31

dowlingm wrote: »

Monthly payments would presumably increase the state's costs of processing these payments also?

Certainly I think the days of tax discs should be behind us, unless there is deemed to be a significant number of people who tip off the guards that people are driving around without one.

I don't understand why motor tax is being fingered here per se, and why the alternative is deemed to be putting it on your credit card balance. We all have lots of outgoings in our lives and maybe some of the annual ones have to be financed rather than paid for by cash, but the alternative should be a 12.68pc or less loan from your local credit union if your bank doesn't offer suitable personal financing. If the car is paid off then perhaps a more attractive arrangement might be obtained by offering said car as security which might leverage a loan enough to cover not just the motor tax but a few hundred of other high-interest debt as well, while paying it down on a monthly basis over the next year.

The idea of monthly direct debit is aimed at the 420,000 people on the live register or those on low incomes who will not get a loan or financing of any sort. That find themselves driving with out road tax for weeks or months at a time because they cant afford to pay 150-200 euro a quarter in one lump sum. Its not something that will cost the government any extra and would almost certainly lead to extra revenue.
To give you an idea of what im talking about.

Currently my motor tax is. Yearly €673

Half yearly @55.5% = €373 which works out at
€746 per year
Quarterly @28.25% = €190 which works
out at €760 per year
Introduce monthly dd payments say @10% = 67.30 which works out at €807.60 per year.

Its not something that would make me that happy because it means i pay more but it would make my life easier and its probably the only thing the government would even consider.

n97 mini

Not being a smart ass, but what's to stop you from putting €65 in an envelope/money box every month? It sounds more like a self discipline issue rather than a problem with the system.

Also not being an ass, but I don't understand why people driving 1.9L cars for social and leisure purposes complain about road tax rather than downsize.

dowlingm

kilkenny31 wrote: »

Currently my motor tax is. Yearly €673

Half yearly @55.5% = €373 which works out at €746 per year
Quarterly @28.25% = €190 which works out at €760 per year
Introduce monthly dd payments say @10% = 67.30 which works out at €807.60 per year.

Its not something that would make me that happy because it means i pay more but it would make my life easier and its probably the only thing the government would even consider.

Presumably this is a 1.8L standard assessed car per the motor tax assessment table. So basically you're borrowing money from the government but paying 20% over above the nominal amount, which in APR terms must be getting on for a bit more than that since it's a decreasing balance. 704 Eur for 2 halfyearly payments is 10% over the nominal amount. I just checked the credit union in my home town and their APR is 9.4pc.

_Kaiser_

n97 mini wrote: »

Also not being an ass, but I don't understand why people driving 1.9L cars for social and leisure purposes complain about road tax rather than downsize.

Because downsizing may not be practical depending on the usage.

If you do any sort of commuting a diesel is an essential and unless you can afford a newer post-08 car (which most people who are affected by the high tax can't) your default choice will be something from the VW stable in 1.9 TDI form.

This issue is then further compounded by virtue of the fact that the government in its infinite wisdom decided to incentivise people to trade-up by offering cheaper tax (generally) on the newer cars. Of course this was supposedly to save the trees or whatever but the reality is it was to keep SIMI and its members happy - hence why when people DID exactly what they were asked, and tax revenues went down because everyone went and bought BMW 520D's for €156 tax, the government then pushed THOSE rates up too :rolleyes:

To make things still worse it has led to a situation where older and generally better cars are now worthless because they don't qualify for "de cheap tax" now demanded by the average Irish motorist (leaving aside the nonsense of spending 40k to save 300 a year on tax...).

It's also leading to mechanical problems as diesels are meant to be driven, not pottering around on the school run or down to the corner shop for milk - hence expensive engine issues when filters get clogged up etc

Bottom line for the owner of an "old" car then is they're being shafted from all sides.. the value of the car has dropped like a stone, the cost of taxing it has gone up, and because nobody wants it without them taking a significant hit on it, they're forced to cut corners on servicing etc so they can keep it on the road month to month.

I actually dread buying a "newer" car in years to come because of all this!

n97 mini

n97 mini wrote:

Also not being an ass, but I don't understand why people driving 1.9L cars for social and leisure purposes complain about road tax rather than downsize.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Because downsizing may not be practical depending on the usage.

If you do any sort of commuting

OP doesn't do any commuting. I'm talking about people buying cars they can't afford to tax when there was a cheaper alternative. E.g. 1.9 Octavia vs 1.4 Octavia.

SeanW

n97 mini wrote: »

OP doesn't do any commuting. I'm talking about people buying cars they can't afford to tax when there was a cheaper alternative. E.g. 1.9 Octavia vs 1.4 Octavia.

That is simply not true.

When I bought my current car, the annual road tax was €614, and since I had cash at the time, I paid it annually the first two years. But between the massive increases in road tax since then and the fact that I now have to pay it 3 monthly, I've seen an effective increase in that to €800! an increase of almost €200 for nothing, in just that one tax alone. So I'm bloody well within my rights to complain about it.

Nemeses

n97 mini wrote: »

Also not being an ass, but I don't understand why people driving 1.9L cars for social and leisure purposes complain about road tax rather than downsize.

Some Diesels would be around 1.9 as standard..

I drive a diesel car, now you could turn around and say buy a new diesel motor which would be around 1.6 or less even.

No, There is nothing wrong with my 2002 car I cant justify buying a post 2008 diesel car for less tax

And also, a ~1.4 litre Petrol car would not suit me for my driving needs.


Do you drive n97mini? If so what car, year and litre?

No Pants

Pay your tax only three months in advance or six months rather than the full year in advance; you pay a premium. Don't pay it at all and then pay the backtax; no extra charge.

SeanW

No Pants wrote: »

Pay your tax only three months in advance or six months rather than the full year in advance; you pay a premium. Don't pay it at all and then pay the backtax; no extra charge.

They're taking that away too.

n97 mini

Nemeses wrote: »

And also, a ~1.4 litre Petrol car would not suit me for my driving needs.

You don't say why.

Nemeses wrote: »

Do you drive n97mini? If so what car, year and litre?

Yep, 2004, 1.3 petrol saloon. Would love something bigger/faster, but I can't justify the costs.

beauf

veryangryman wrote: »

Actually why cant they just do it digitally - ie the cop scans/presses in your reg and gets its details from the Database - doesnt sound difficult.

Exactly, and why not simply scan the plates on major routes. Have a few mobile vans to do likewise. All this printing and processing of paper discs is ridiculous. Has any other country got rid of them?

TBH its just another tax so should be rolled up into fuel taxes.

hognef

beauf wrote: »

All this printing and processing of paper discs is ridiculous. Has any other country got rid of them?

Yes, Norway. From last year. It was never a paper disc though, rather a sticker on the registration plate. There was also never (afaik) a need to display insurance or (the equivalent of) NCT discs.

Trhiggy83

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Because downsizing may not be practical depending on the usage.

If you do any sort of commuting a diesel is an essential and unless you can afford a newer post-08 car (which most people who are affected by the high tax can't) your default choice will be something from the VW stable in 1.9 TDI form.

This issue is then further compounded by virtue of the fact that the government in its infinite wisdom decided to incentivise people to trade-up by offering cheaper tax (generally) on the newer cars. Of course this was supposedly to save the trees or whatever but the reality is it was to keep SIMI and its members happy - hence why when people DID exactly what they were asked, and tax revenues went down because everyone went and bought BMW 520D's for €156 tax, the government then pushed THOSE rates up too :rolleyes:

To make things still worse it has led to a situation where older and generally better cars are now worthless because they don't qualify for "de cheap tax" now demanded by the average Irish motorist (leaving aside the nonsense of spending 40k to save 300 a year on tax...).

It's also leading to mechanical problems as diesels are meant to be driven, not pottering around on the school run or down to the corner shop for milk - hence expensive engine issues when filters get clogged up etc

Bottom line for the owner of an "old" car then is they're being shafted from all sides.. the value of the car has dropped like a stone, the cost of taxing it has gone up, and because nobody wants it without them taking a significant hit on it, they're forced to cut corners on servicing etc so they can keep it on the road month to month.

I actually dread buying a "newer" car in years to come because of all this!

You hit the nail on the head with that post, we are being shafted from all angles if you have a pre 08 car, it ridiculous. the only option left is to drive what you have regardless of how much the tax costs. This country is gonna get worse before it gets better afterall we need to keep the pot full to keep paying politicians pensions and overpaid public sector salaries

dowlingm

beauf wrote: »

TBH its just another tax so should be rolled up into fuel taxes.

Which will be avoided by going across the border and/or fuel laundering.

ezra_pound

Op. What do you need your car for?

beauf

dowlingm wrote: »

Which will be avoided by going across the border and/or fuel laundering.

Its not like that doesn't happen already.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/8m-fuel-laundering-plant-found-in-monaghan-1.1402556

I wonder how much it costs to print all those discs and how much more income would be gained if cars could be scanned electronically than by having Garda checking them.