8200 DARTs

JimmysRabbits

Are the 8200 alstom darts still mothballed at inchicore ? It seems so long since they were actually in service - I can remember their much anticipated return to service in 2008/09 as an 8 piece. From there they returned to a 6 piece and eventually totally withdrawn. Is it really almost 4 years since they last saw revenue service ?

It's an awful shame - they must have such low mileage for units that are only 12 or 13 years old.

Presumably no buyer was forthcoming - I wonder is the cutters torch now an inevitability ?

Captain Chaos

Yep still at Inchicore. IE put them up for sale along with the 2700s but no buyer was found.

Only a matter of time before they are cut up along with the 2700s and Mk3s.

Markcheese

What was or is so wrong with them ??
And how long after buying them did they start to go wrong ...

Captain Chaos

Don't know what was wrong with them but the lads in Fairview and Inchicore could not sort it out. They even had some guys from Alstom over here looking at them. Think they only worked ok for about 5-6 years before all the trouble started with them. From 1999-2002 they only ran within their own class and from 2003 they were mixed in with 8500s and 8510s to form 6 car sets before all the platforms were extended to take 8 car trains.

In the summer of 2007 only 2 of the sets were operational, 3 and 5. There were part of an interesting DART formation for about a month that never happened again. Sets 3 and 5 formed up with 4 car set 8513/14 to make and 8 car set. They ran like this for a few weeks then formed up with 8515/16 for a few more. That was the only time the 8200s worked with 8500s to make an 8 car formation. The 8200s never worked with the 8100s in service, don't think they were fully compatible but they shunted each other around Fairview depot when needed as their couplings were compatible.

In 2008 they managed to get 4 sets back in operation forming an all 8200 8 car formation. It ran like that for 2 days before a set was removed with problems and it remained in service as a 6 car formation until they were all out of service a few months later. After that the odd sets had brief returns to service and test runs but reliability at that stage was dire.

Markcheese

Can't imagine that if I bought a fleet of cars or vans that was purchased to have a life of 20 to 30 years that I'd be content with ford or Toyota sending a few lads out to look at them for a bit ....
I'd expect them replaced or overhauled or something ...

dowlingm

Markcheese wrote: »

Can't imagine that if I bought a fleet of cars or vans that was purchased to have a life of 20 to 30 years that I'd be content with ford or Toyota sending a few lads out to look at them for a bit ....
I'd expect them replaced or overhauled or something ...

And if the vans had a 5 year/100,000 km warranty Ford would give you an estimate to fix them at your cost.

Markcheese

dowlingm wrote: »

And if the vans had a 5 year/100,000 km warranty Ford would give you an estimate to fix them at your cost.

How long after buying them did the darts start to implode, and would it not have been possible to reliably refurb them ...

Cookie_Monster

They should have just gutted the running gear and operated them as trailers, at least that way they'd still be in use rather than sitting there with no one interested in them.

Marcusm

This is fairly shocking; there are 35 year old EMUs in daily service on UK rail routes. Were these accepted into service without noticing inherent defects?

GBOA

Marcusm wrote: »

This is fairly shocking; there are 35 year old EMUs in daily service on UK rail routes.

Perhaps more relevant, is the fact that there are Mk3s which are now approaching 40 years in service and still show no signs of withdrawal anytime soon! Stark contrast to the IÉ Mk3s which are between 24 and 29 years old and heading for scrap.

I never understood why IÉ seemed to squander so much money on things they didn't need or things they did need but which didn't work. Perhaps it was a symptom of the 'good times' or maybe, as I'd be more inclined to think, typical inept public sector management.

Captain Chaos

Some Mk3s in the UK are going in for refurb now to last another 15-20 years of service and they are running around at 110-125mph daily. Our Mk4s will be gone by then, there is talk of mothballing the Mk4 fleet already after just 7 years and going all ICRs.

Cookie_Monster

GBOA wrote: »

I never understood why IÉ seemed to squander so much money on things they didn't need or things they did need but which didn't work. Perhaps it was a symptom of the 'good times' or maybe, as I'd be more inclined to think, typical inept public sector management.

because there are no consequences, they've never been pulled up for waste so will continue to not worry about it; the gov don't care, the management don't care so the ground level staff don't care either. It's reflected in stock (mis)use, the run down look of all the stations, the indifferent attitudes so often reported here and so on and so on and so on.

corktina

it was stated recently that trains couldn't be lengthed because there is an embargo of how much stock can be in service at any one time.
There clearly is a massive over-provision of rolling stock; Dart, Railcar, Mk4...across the board (not to mention the mk3 fiasco).

How can this happen without heads rolling?

GBOA

Heads generally don't roll in the public sector, they quietly move to another department. It's all very incestuous.

Marcusm

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Some Mk3s in the UK are going in for refurb now to last another 15-20 years of service and they are running around at 110-125mph daily. Our Mk4s will be gone by then, there is talk of mothballing the Mk4 fleet already after just 7 years and going all ICRs.

Have you been looking at Eversholt's mock up with special recliners etc!

Captain Chaos

Marcusm wrote: »

Have you been looking at Eversholt's mock up with special recliners etc!

No, just read a little about them. Are they going to replace the slam doors, seems odd this day and age with top end stock still with slam doors.

GBOA

Some UK Mk3s have been converted. See below.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60127&highlight=plug+doors

Surprised it's taken so long. The Irish Mk3s were streets ahead in that respect.

end of the road

Captain Chaos wrote: »

there is talk of mothballing the Mk4 fleet already after just 7 years and going all ICRs.

i would ask are you joking but knowing irish rails history with wastage i can't say i'm shocked if this is true

corktina

are there enough 22s to do this?

Captain Chaos

corktina wrote: »

are there enough 22s to do this?

Plenty. There are 22k sets surplus to requirements daily. When the earlier sets needed overhaul they just left them in the depot until they needed to be actually overhauled and used the newer sets instead. It was a case of "no rush like" on those overhauls lads.

TheBandicoot

Captain Chaos wrote: »

It was a case of "no rush like" on those overhauls lads.

No. It's more like "there's no money" to perform the overhauls. Whatever about capital investment, IE doesn't have the current resources to operate all of its trains, and as a result they scrapped the 2700s to save on maintenance costs and that's probably why they are looking at the Mk4's to extract economies of scale in 22k maintenance. It's also why there are problems with overcrowding and set diagrams, IE can't afford to run more than a bare minimum of 22ks. In other countries they subsidise their public transport enough to actually operate effectively, but here car is king and parish pumps politics stops anything getting done. What's needed is a proper nationalisation of CIE and its child companies and proper subvention and investment on an ongoing basis, with a government commitment to operating a well funded, efficient transport service that acts as the sole PSO operator and let the privates fight over the more lucrative routes, but can be replaced with state-run services when/if they fail.

Grandeeod

TheBandicoot wrote: »

No. It's more like "there's no money" to perform the overhauls. Whatever about capital investment, IE doesn't have the current resources to operate all of its trains, and as a result they scrapped the 2700s to save on maintenance costs and that's probably why they are looking at the Mk4's to extract economies of scale in 22k maintenance. It's also why there are problems with overcrowding and set diagrams, IE can't afford to run more than a bare minimum of 22ks. In other countries they subsidise their public transport enough to actually operate effectively, but here car is king and parish pumps politics stops anything getting done. What's needed is a proper nationalisation of CIE and its child companies and proper subvention and investment on an ongoing basis, with a government commitment to operating a well funded, efficient transport service that acts as the sole PSO operator and let the privates fight over the more lucrative routes, but can be replaced with state-run services when/if they fail.

Despite what supporters may say, let CIE clean up its act and then we can demean and demand from Government. Yes Government and the minister as a stakeholder is massive problem, but the railway issue in Ireland is an onward going problem. Both sides are at fault and I fear both sides play games that ultimately affect the railway in a horribly negative fashion. This game of chess has been going on since the 1950s. I'm no fan of CIE, but I do appreciate the negative impact of successive Governments.

end of the road

Grandeeod wrote: »

Despite what supporters may say, let CIE clean up its act and then we can demean and demand from Government.

i should think supporters of CIE (i take it thats the supporters your referring to) would agree their are problems with CIE and that they do need to clean up their act.

Grandeeod wrote: »

Yes Government and the minister as a stakeholder is massive problem, but the railway issue in Ireland is an onward going problem. Both sides are at fault and I fear both sides play games that ultimately affect the railway in a horribly negative fashion. This game of chess has been going on since the 1950s. I'm no fan of CIE, but I do appreciate the negative impact of successive Governments.

brilliantly put

davidlacey

If the mark 4 goes i will never use the cork service again! Its like putting a railcar on the enterprise service, while people say the ride quality on the the 22k is far superior, on the main routes of a specific country you expect a higher quality of rolling stock and just pitting a run of the mill 22k on the main route in ireland will lose business rather than gain it, mark4s in my opinion are much more comfortable than 22ks end of! As for the CIE situation as long as they are seen to making cost cutting measures no one will pull them up on it even if it is putting relatively new stock in storage. They will just label that stock as overspending during the celtic tiger and stock that was always going to be surplus to requirements. Sure we are talking about a company that cant afford the day to day things, for example the lift at athenry has been out of service for the last 6 months and the pedisteran bridge in bray that was demolished a few years back due to health and safety concerns at the LC has never been replaced due to lack of money...

corktina

mk4s more comfortable than 22s? I don't think so....I think they are dire, really poor quality stock. I quite like the 22s, big improvement if they took over the Cork sercvices

davidlacey

corktina wrote: »

mk4s more comfortable than 22s? I don't think so....I think they are dire, really poor quality stock. I quite like the 22s, big improvement if they took over the Cork sercvices

I mean the comfort of being in a loco hauled carriage ;-)

corktina

is it the LOCO bit that sways you in their favour? I'm afraid the days of the loco in passenger service are numbered...shame, but there you are, we need to have the most efficient railway possible

davidlacey

A bland but, efficient railway cannot wait for the second part to catch on!

dowlingm

I don't know who "supporters of CIE" would classify as. Mostly CIE employees and pensioners who would fear for an attempt to mess with what they contracted for after a privatisation or other breakup.

Certainly I don't think most rational transportation advocates would call for a conglomerate whose most visible manner of multimodal activity is in property ownership while their constituent local bus, regional/national bus and rail operations co-operate in only the slightest fashions. CIE is an accident of history.

Cookie_Monster

corktina wrote: »

is it the LOCO bit that sways you in their favour? I'm afraid the days of the loco in passenger service are numbered...shame, but there you are, we need to have the most efficient railway possible

tell that to the Swiss. Probably the best system in the world and heavily reliant of loco based haulage.

IE123

They should keep the 8200s for a few more years, and refurbish them. Then, they will not have to buy as many new trains once Dart Underground opens.

end of the road

IE123 wrote: »

They should keep the 8200s for a few more years, and refurbish them. Then, they will not have to buy as many new trains once Dart Underground opens.

i'd imagine they would need to be gutted back to the shell and have all new equipment fitted, could be as or more cost effective to just buy new sets, all though the handling of the whole situation surrounding these units was absolutely ridiculous, irish rail should have had alsthom before the courts to replace or fix the units, okay we may not need them now but thats not the point, if you buy something and its faulty then the decent thing for a company to do is fix it if they can. its a shame the contract between IE and alsthom to build these isn't availible for us to read.

dowlingm

A big problem with the 8200s is the small fleet size. Means future expensive bespoke parts to be made and stored, since Alstom stopped worrying about supporting them years ago. Might have been interesting to see if Siemens could have made a bunch of four car 8100-8200-8200-8100 sets, ripping out the 8200 cabs for more seating and replacing as much stuff as possible with common parts, but they had enough trouble getting that refurb started without throwing that in the mix.

Rotunda Shill

How come IR didn't take legal action over these rail sets?

They gave nothing but trouble since day one.

Alstohm are supposed to be the pioneers in locomotive and EMU manufacturers having made rolling stock for the London Underground, SNCF, NS and the best part of Europe.

Captain Chaos

Rotunda Shill wrote: »

How come IR didn't take legal action over these rail sets?

They gave nothing but trouble since day one.

Alstohm are supposed to be the pioneers in locomotive and EMU manufacturers having made rolling stock for the London Underground, SNCF, NS and the best part of Europe.

It's far too late for that now. The units are 14 years old. If they wanted them sorted out they should have iced up big time 10 years ago.

Now these units are not needed anymore. To bring them back you have to give the drivers a refresher course, same with the maintainers and having to stock more spare parts for an un-common fleet. Just not worth the cost, hassle or effort.

The 2700s also made by Alstom were not great either and only worked well in 2 car formations with very regular maintenance. They were nowhere near as good as the 26 and 2800s by Mitsu/Toku Car same with the 8500s also made by Mitsu/Toku Car.

The only good rolling stock by Alstom in the country are the Citidas Luas trams.

end of the road

UK stuff made by them also have had problems. the 180s for example. apparently those units are well liked though so its rather a shame. never traveled on them myself. have on the 175s. they are okay units all though for the 90 minute trip okay is good enough

Rotunda Shill

Its a pity as Alstohm made some of the finest European Electric Locos including the TGV and its predecessors. Guess once bitten.. IR made a wise move with TOYKU

devnull

Alstom had problems with the class 175, 180, 334, 458, 460 in the UK all which were launched around the same time as each other, many were withdrawn in favor of older trains for a while and the 458s were planned to be fully withdrawn after 4 years since they were so unreliable and replaced with new stock.

It took a good few years to iron out the problems with them and even today whilst better they still are not near the top of the reliability list.

The 180s were withdrawn by FGW in favour of extra free HSTS a few years ago, the only reason they have them again as it's quite literally that or nothing, there was no more 125mph trains free and no more were permitted to be ordered.

Since then Siemens have really come to the fore, with Desiros which are reguarly winning awrds for the mos treliable trains in the UK.

dowlingm

The Alstom 2700/8200s were built in Spain. Citadis trams were built on a line in France. Don't think there was too much in common.

etchyed

end of the road wrote: »

UK stuff made by them also have had problems. the 180s for example. apparently those units are well liked though so its rather a shame. never traveled on them myself. have on the 175s. they are okay units all though for the 90 minute trip okay is good enough

This is true, but the 458s are among the most reliable units in the UK now, notwithstanding recent problems with their conversion.

But in any case, as dowlingm points out, many of these trains are from completely different production lines, so comparing them is of limited use.

Rotunda Shill

Have they scrapped the 8200's

One would have thought Alstom would have done something as a gesture. They have certainly shot themselveds in the foot with IR.

Not the first time Ir was shafted over poor workmanship. The Metrovic's original Crossley drive units had to be replaced with EMD's.

end of the road

Rotunda Shill wrote: »

Have they scrapped the 8200's

as far as i know they haven't

Rotunda Shill wrote: »

One would have thought Alstom would have done something as a gesture.

meh. they got payed and don't care unfortunately. IE should have took them to court on principal at least over these heaps.

Rotunda Shill wrote: »

They have certainly shot themselveds in the foot with IR.

i hope so. the only problem is the tendering process EU countries have to abide by all though, they could get around it by stating that future units would have to be able to work with the current stock, then it will be up to whoever to bid based on that (did alsthom/alstom/whatever bid for anything since the 2700/8200s i wonder)

Rotunda Shill wrote: »

Not the first time Ir was shafted over poor workmanship. The Metrovic's original Crossley drive units had to be replaced with EMD's.

true. all though its worth noting that many if any of the british companies were not very experienced with diesel traction. we weren't the only ones effected by this, many BR designs suffered from various problems. of course the history of BR rolling stock while interesting is probably for another thread