Somewhat rude moderation posts.

Esoteric_

I hope I'm in the right place, wasn't sure whether to put this in here or in the Help Desk.

I'd like to point out that I have no real issues with moderation on boards in general, or any personal problem with any specific moderators, but this has been niggling at me for a little while.

In some threads, moderators seem to give quite rude answers to users who ask a question or voice an opinion.

I know that people have said things about spotting this in Prison, but I also completely understand that after dealing with a complete time-sink for a while, you're going to be rude or snarky back to them, and tbh I don't have an issue with it.

What I have an issue with are posts like the ones I'm about to link to being seen as acceptable from a moderator. -

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85004075&postcount=545

The above was posted in the forum that the mod moderates. Honestly, I think that telling a user 'none of your business tbh' is a bit rude, and somewhat inflammatory. Even if a user questions a mod decision on-thread, there are processes to deal with that (warnings/infractions), but there's no need to be snarky with them IMO. Whoopsa, who was personally attacked by a user on the same thread, managed to keep her cool and be polite and courteous when responding to the personal attack in a mod capacity.

In the following post, the same mod makes a fairly inflammatory post about a user closing his account (in Feedback, where I assume the mod is posting as a moderator, as it's about a thread in his forum), and subsequently defends his post in a later post -

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83576710&postcount=183

I know that this looks as though I'm picking on Super-Rush, and I'm really not intending to. For all I know, this sort of thing happens elsewhere on boards, but these are two posts that stuck in my head. I've seen other users comment on these two posts in particular, and I have to ask are those sort of comments seen as acceptable from a moderator (when posting a mod capacity, because mods only act as mods in their own fora)?

I could be completely shot down here, but even as a hMod, I wouldn't speak to anyone in the ODG forum like that, because I think it gives a bad impression.

I just think that posts like that can give users an impression of the forum being a hostile place, which AH certainly isn't (in my opinion).

I'm happy to be shot down on this, and am not looking for an argument, but I personally think that comments such as the ones I've linked to are out of line when coming from a moderator in a mod capacity.

Again, I don't mean any offence to Super-Rush, these were just examples that have stuck in my head, as it's not something I've seen much of elsewhere on boards.

Cabaal

In fairness to the first link, questioning a mods decision on thread is a no no. The user should have taken any query to pm instead of asking on thread.

In relation to the second, is there really a need to drag up something that already has been discussed on that thread already?

Esoteric_

Cabaal wrote: »

In fairness to
the first link, questioning a mods decision on thread is a no no. The
user should have taken any query to pm instead of asking on thread.

In relation to the second, is there really a need to drag up something
that already has been discussed on that thread already?

As I said in my OP, I'm aware that a mod's decision was being questioned, but there are infraction and warning functionalities in place to deal with those, or if the mod didn't want to go that far, a reminder or on-thread warning could have been used, there wasn't a need, imo, for how it was responded to.

The reason for pulling up the old post is because, IMO, it wasn't dealt very well with if the mod felt happy to tell another poster 'none of your business.'

Fr_Dougal

Esoteric_ wrote: »

As I said in my OP, I'm aware that a mod's decision was being questioned, but there are infraction and warning functionalities in place to deal with those, or if the mod didn't want to go that far, a reminder or on-thread warning could have been used, there wasn't a need, imo, for how it was responded to.

The reason for pulling up the old post is because, IMO, it wasn't dealt very well with if the mod felt happy to tell another poster 'none of your business.'

It wasn't any of the posters business and they shouldn't have questioned the decision on thread. The mod didn't ban/infract the poster for questioning a mod decision on thread and he did suggest that the poster PM the mod directly, that was a fair and measured response.

If posters actually read the Charter they wouldn't have to be moderated.

Esoteric_

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

It wasn't any of the posters business and they shouldn't have questioned the decision on thread. The mod didn't ban/infract the poster for questioning a mod decision on thread and he did suggest that the poster PM the mod directly, that was a fair and measured response.

If posters actually read the Charter they wouldn't have to be moderated.

The mod DID direct them to PM the relevant moderator if they wanted to question a mod decision, but there was no need for the 'it's none of your business tbh' prefix, IMO.

darced

This post has been deleted.

humanji

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That's incredibly unfair and creating a conspiracy where there is none.

Esoteric_

humanji wrote: »

That's incredibly unfair and creating a conspiracy where there is none.

+1 on this. In my experience, mods in general (and on the AH Feedback thread) are very receptive to constructive criticism. dr.bollocko, for example, responded to a few points made by users, saying that they were things that were currently being discussed among the mod team, which was nice, as he didn't have to tell the users that their feedback was being discussed.

I really don't want this to turn into a mod-bashing thread, because that's not the intention of the posts I've made. I think the mods, in general, do a stellar job, I just found a few posts to be out of line tbh, and am questioning what exactly is the expected standard of moderation on boards, because I assumed that isn't it?

humanji

I'd agree with the point your making in general. The thing is that mods are humans too and are probably more prone to lose the head than regular users as they have to deal with quite a bit of aggro. That's not to excuse it though, just to make the point that it can be tough to remain emotional detached when modding and then switching back to yourself when posting (in fact, Super-Rush's reply in the Feedback thread in AH explains his actions there pretty well).

Ironically enough, it was Darced who brought a similar point up before, and I know that I and several other mods took his advice and tried to reduce moderator actions to the facts without making any personal points. But it's still something that could probably do with some sort of admin message to all mods. It would seem like common sense, but a gentle reminder from up above to try and be polite and to step away from the computer when you feel things getting to you, would go a long way.

padd b1975

Esoteric_ wrote: »

+1 on this. In my experience, mods in general (and on the AH Feedback thread) are very receptive to constructive criticism. dr.bollocko, for example, responded to a few points made by users, saying that they were things that were currently being discussed among the mod team, which was nice, as he didn't have to tell the users that their feedback was being discussed.

I really don't want this to turn into a mod-bashing thread, because that's not the intention of the posts I've made. I think the mods, in general, do a stellar job, I just found a few posts to be out of line tbh, and am questioning what exactly is the expected standard of moderation on boards, because I assumed that isn't it?

The mod you refer to has decided to take a break from modding AH.

Honest explanation for his/her behaviour here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85021354&postcount=556

Esoteric_

humanji wrote: »

I'd agree with the point your making in general. The thing is that mods are humans too and are probably more prone to lose the head than regular users as they have to deal with quite a bit of aggro. That's not to excuse it though, just to make the point that it can be tough to remain emotional detached when modding and then switching back to yourself when posting (in fact, Super-Rush's reply in the Feedback thread in AH explains his actions there pretty well).

Ironically enough, it was Darced who brought a similar point up before, and I know that I and several other mods took his advice and tried to reduce moderator actions to the facts without making any personal points. But it's still something that could probably do with some sort of admin message to all mods. It would seem like common sense, but a gentle reminder from up above to try and be polite and to step away from the computer when you feel things getting to you, would go a long way.

Thanks for that humanji, that's exactly the kind of response I was looking for.

I completely agree that mods are human, and I have to give major credit to Super-Rush for his recent post in the Feedback thread. Takes some balls to apologise on a public forum.

I'm obviously not on the mod forum, so didn't know what kind of approach was taken when Darced made a point the last time, or what was taken on board, but it's nice to know that things WERE taken on board and discussed. Honestly, while it may be more work for the Admin team (which I don't particularly want, because every Admin and mod has enough work to be doing on the site already), I thought that a little reminder from them could work well. I don't think I've seen anything that warrants anything further than that, and like I said, I think the mods do great work on boards in general.

Thanks again for your response.

Esoteric_

padd b1975 wrote: »

The mod you refer to has decided to take a break from modding AH.

Honest explanation for his/her behaviour here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85021354&postcount=556

I know, I've responded to that post already.

The reason I'm still posting here is because, despite using very specific examples, my thread is based on a more general question about mod standards, and what sort of behaviour is acceptable/unacceptable from a mod.

Czarcasm

Just to try and flesh out the idea of the OP somewhat, I've seen occasions on the site where Moderators of their own forums have indeed been sanctioned for the very rare in fairness times when they have posted in a less than civil fashion.

I say very rare because that's exactly what it is. A somewhat more common occurrence, and I know it's oft excused, but the whole idea of "Moderators are ordinary posters outside their own forums", that hardly holds any weight when there are numerous examples on the site of Moderators outside their own forums who wouldn't tolerate their own behaviour in their own forums.

To me THAT'S double standard moderation and is akin to while you won't shìt on your own doorstep, you'll happily take a dump on your neighbours doorstep and leave the mess for them to clean up.

I think Moderators should be encouraged and held to the same high standard they expect in their own forums, outside their own forums.

I think too credit has to be given where it's due to those Moderators who actually contribute to and get involved in their own forums in the same fashion as ordinary posters and don't just jut in when a post need to be actioned, then disappear again. A bit like so-

Esoteric_

Czarcasm wrote: »

Just to try and flesh out the idea of the OP somewhat, I've seen occasions on the site where Moderators of their own forums have indeed been sanctioned for the very rare in fairness times when they have posted in a less than civil fashion.

I say very rare because that's exactly what it is. A somewhat more common occurrence, and I know it's oft excused, but the whole idea of "Moderators are ordinary posters outside their own forums", that hardly holds any weight when there are numerous examples on the site of Moderators outside their own forums who wouldn't tolerate their own behaviour in their own forums.

To me THAT'S double standard moderation and is akin to while you won't shìt on your own doorstep, you'll happily take a dump on your neighbours doorstep and leave the mess for them to clean up.

I think Moderators should be encouraged and held to the same high standard they expect in their own forums, outside their own forums.

I think too credit has to be given where it's due to those Moderators who actually contribute to and get involved in their own forums in the same fashion as ordinary posters and don't just jut in when a post need to be actioned, then disappear again. A bit like so-

At the same time, mods behaving badly enough outside of their own fora to warrant mod action from another mod is rare enough. I'm not going to stop joking around or making silly posts in AH just because I'm a HMod, but I'm not going to intentionally break the rules there, either.

The vast majority of mods don't go around racking up infractions/warnings/bans in other fora, because IIRC, their record on the whole of the site can be a determining factor in whether or not they retain modship.

Czarcasm

Esoteric_ wrote: »

At the same time, mods behaving badly enough outside of their own fora to warrant mod action from another mod is rare enough. I'm not going to stop joking around or making silly posts in AH just because I'm a HMod, but I'm not going to intentionally break the rules there, either.

The vast majority of mods don't go around racking up infractions/warnings/bans in other fora, because IIRC, their record on the whole of the site can be a determining factor in whether or not they retain modship.

Oh no that's not what I mean Esoteric, the bolded bit should actually be encouraged, and it's great to see for breaking down the perceived by some "us vs them" myth.

I just meant that, ok, take After Hours out of the equation (I don't want to go quoting examples because they'd be poster specific, the same issue you encountered when you opened this thread), but I've seen Moderators who are civil in their own forum, be rather uncivil outside their own forum, if that makes sense? It's a site wide issue that I've seen in a couple of forums, which is why I left AH out of it.

Humanities for example can be a bit difficult to read sometimes.

(Cue Humanities Moderator jumping in... Settle down, I only used Humanities as one example out of the 800 forums, I usually only frequent about a tenth of that tbf!)

Esoteric_

Czarcasm wrote: »

Oh no that's not what I mean Esoteric, the bolded bit should actually be encouraged, and it's great to see for breaking down the perceived by some "us vs them" myth.

I just meant that, ok, take After Hours out of the equation (I don't want to go quoting examples because they'd be poster specific, the same issue you encountered when you opened this thread), but I've seen Moderators who are civil in their own forum, be rather uncivil outside their own forum, if that makes sense? It's a site wide issue that I've seen in a couple of forums, which is why I left AH out of it.

Humanities for example can be a bit difficult to read sometimes.

(Cue Humanities Moderator jumping in... Settle down, I only used Humanities as one example out of the 800 forums, I usually only frequent about a tenth of that tbf!)

Tbh I haven't looked much in Humanities so can't really comment on it, but the 'mods shouldn't act like regular users outside of their moderated fora' argument has been done to death. If a mod steps out of line, they'll be actioned for it, same as any other user.

Czarcasm

Esoteric_ wrote: »

Tbh I haven't looked much in Humanities so can't really comment on it, but the 'mods shouldn't act like regular users outside of their moderated fora' argument has been done to death. If a mod steps out of line, they'll be actioned for it, same as any other user.

They ARE actioned for it though, but what I'm trying to say is that they shouldn't HAVE to be actioned for stuff, they should know better, because they're Moderators themselves. Effectively the Moderators of both fora are unpaid volunteers, but one is making work for the other and setting a bad example for ordinary posters.

I wouldn't blame you for not seeing it as often as I do when a Moderator is sanctioned or even de-moderated because of their actions, we can't all be beady eyed fcuks! :pac:

Esoteric_

Czarcasm wrote: »

They ARE actioned for it though, but what I'm trying to say is that they shouldn't HAVE to be actioned for stuff, they should know better, because they're Moderators themselves. Effectively the Moderators of both fora are unpaid volunteers, but one is making work for the other and setting a bad example for ordinary posters.

I wouldn't blame you for not seeing it as often as I do when a Moderator is sanctioned or even de-moderated because of their actions, we can't all be beady eyed fcuks! :pac:

As humanji pointed out though, we're only human. Everybody, mods included, make mistakes. I've made mistakes in my current (paid!) job, because I'm human. When I make a mistake, I try to put it right, just like Super-Rush did.

Sarky

If that's rude, you really don't want to see some of the posts I closed threads with back in Creative Writing. :pac:

Esoteric_

Sarky wrote: »

If that's rude, you really don't want to see some of the posts I closed threads with back in Creative Writing. :pac:

I know you're joking, but considering humanji said that points about 'rude' moderation were taken on board, and changes made, in the past, some mods do agree (or at least did) that rude moderation can be a problem.

If a mod is rude, it immediately portrays the forum as being hostile. Nobody wants to post in a place that they feel is hostile.

Czarcasm

Esoteric_ wrote: »

I know you're joking, but considering humanji said that points about 'rude' moderation were taken on board, and changes made, in the past, some mods do agree (or at least did) that rude moderation can be a problem.

If a mod is rude, it immediately portrays the forum as being hostile. Nobody wants to post in a place that they feel is hostile.

I think though tbf a forum is more portrayed as hostile by numerous examples of uncivil posts by posters rather than one rare example of a Moderator being, well, curt.

RoundyMooney

I know firsthand how hard it can be to keep a cool head, especially with a high moderation workload.

Hats off to Super Rush (who up to recently struck me as quite an amiable guy) for seeing this difficulty arise in his own online meanderings, and nipping it in the bud in such a public and candid manner.

If everyone was, or could be, as circumspect as to recognise in themselves a potential overemphasis, or emotional "attachment" from their own perspective to what is after all, only a website, and act like he did to counteract that in a timely manner, we'd all be better off!

I hope he continues to post here and enjoy boards.ie.

Micky Dolenz

Is this about one mod and two posts they made or is it about a culture among mods?

darced

This post has been deleted.

Esoteric_

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Is this about one mod and two posts they made or is it about a culture among mods?

I was asking more about expected standards in moderation, but giving a specific example. The reason I chose the examples that I did was because they stuck in my head and also because a lot of posters were giving the mod shít on-thread about both posts with (seemingly) little done by the mods. As I said, I don't know what goes on in the mod forum, but was asking about whether or not that sort of posting style is considered to be acceptable, from a mod (in a mod capacity, I don't care what mods do outside of their own fora).

Esoteric_

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's hardly a 'signature move' when it's done so rarely that I could only remember two examples of it.

Micky Dolenz

Esoteric_ wrote: »

I was asking more about expected standards in moderation, but giving a specific example. The reason I chose the examples that I did was because they stuck in my head and also because a lot of posters were giving the mod shít on-thread about both posts with (seemingly) little done by the mods. As I said, I don't know what goes on in the mod forum, but was asking about whether or not that sort of posting style is considered to be acceptable, from a mod (in a mod capacity, I don't care what mods do outside of their own fora).

You've heard from the mod himself how he feels about it and it is clear that he felt it wasn't acceptable.

I think this thread is a moot point at this stage and is hardly site feedback to begin with.

Esoteric_

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

You've heard from the mod himself how he feels about it and it is clear that he felt it wasn't acceptable.

I think this thread is a moot point at this stage and is hardly site feedback to begin with.

I'm happy for it to be locked if you feel it's pointless, but like I said, my question wasn't about the mod's posts in particular. It was a general question, giving specific examples. Feel free to lock it, though.

Micky Dolenz

Esoteric_ wrote: »

I'm happy for it to be locked if you feel it's pointless, but like I said, my question wasn't about the mod's posts in particular. It was a general question, giving specific examples. Feel free to lock it, though.

I am not a mod here so have no say over if threads get locked or not. Just giving a personal view.

You are questioning the actions of one mod. This thread wasn't 3 posts old and he had explained himself. I'm just not seeing how it is site feedback unless it is a widespread problem.

RoundyMooney

Esoteric_ wrote: »

Feel free to lock it, though.

It's not up to him.

I'd echo an earlier posters comment though. The atmosphere of a forum can be driven as much if not more so by the users as by those modding it. Force of numbers versus an unhealthy and overzealous use of (that godawful phrase) the banhammer.

Esoteric_

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I am not a mod here so have no say over if threads get locked or not. Just giving a personal view.

You are questioning the actions of one mod. This thread wasn't 3 posts old and he had explained himself. I'm just not seeing how it is site feedback unless it is a widespread problem.

Apologies, I didn't even check where you modded, tbh. I should really read a bit better sometimes.

I've tried to explain that rather than question the actions of one mod, I was questioning what is considered to be an acceptable posting style from mods in general, while giving a specific example of something I personally thought may perhaps go against what is considered to be acceptable.

I'm sorry to see Super-Rush step down, because I've found him to be a great mod, and a good poster too, and that was far, far from my intention when starting the thread, but I don't know how many more times I can state that I was asking a mod-general question, while giving a mod-specific example.

Humanji gave me the sort of answer I was looking for anyway, so I don't really mind if an Admin/Mod chooses to lock this.

Sarky

Esoteric_ wrote: »

I know you're joking, but considering humanji said that points about 'rude' moderation were taken on board, and changes made, in the past, some mods do agree (or at least did) that rude moderation can be a problem.

If a mod is rude, it immediately portrays the forum as being hostile. Nobody wants to post in a place that they feel is hostile.

Oh, I wasn't joking.

I was quite nice to every poster who followed the rules, or came to me with issues/questions. The trolls and abusive gits who just didn't get it, though, I felt no compunction to give them any special treatment.

SB2013

Sarky wrote: »

Oh, I wasn't joking.

I was quite nice to every poster who followed the rules, or came to me with issues/questions. The trolls and abusive gits who just didn't get it, though, I felt no compunction to give them any special treatment.

I don't think this is about giving them special treatment though. It's about not giving them bad treatment. If you have a problem poster then the option is there to infract or ban him. There's no need to get the last word in or throw in a parting dig. it looks petty and makes the infraction or ban look personally motivated. Having said that, i don't see this particular issue as a major one on Boards.

clairefontaine

SB2013 wrote: »

I don't think this is about giving them special treatment though. It's about not giving them bad treatment. If you have a problem poster then the option is there to infract or ban him. There's no need to get the last word in or throw in a parting dig. it looks petty and makes the infraction or ban look personally motivated. Having said that, i don't see this particular issue as a major one on Boards.

Yes. You can hardly condemn someone for being rude and insulting and then do the same yourself.

If the rudeness continues from other posters too, it could be because an example was set.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Super-Rush

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I've apologised for the tone of my post but I'm not apologising for thread banning you.

Like I told you in pm, Liz told people to get back on topic and you ignored it. Then I told people to get back on topic and you ignored that as well.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Esoteric_

'Don't get your knickers in a twist' is a really inflammatory way of telling somebody to chill out, just saying.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Insect Overlord

Probably because you're a pain to deal with, if your posts in this thread since the ban are anything to go by...

darced

This post has been deleted.

Czarcasm

darced wrote: »

I've had one mod action in three and a half years in after hours which I deserved,so your wrong there matey.

Mods dont like it when them showing bias is pointed out obviously.

There's no need to get your knickers in a twist.

Orim

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Regardless of mod actions, you come across as quite passive-aggressive and a little rules lawyery. Neither of which are pleasent to deal with, even if they don't break the rules.


Personally, I always liked a bit of a joke or even rudeness in a moderation post. I think it adds a bit of character to the site but then I don't think I've ever been on the receiving end.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Czarcasm

darced wrote: »

Dont post in this thread again.

That's the spirit!

darced

This post has been deleted.

MugMugs

You questioned a mod decision on thread. The world and it's mothers knows that's a no no. You're lucky you didn't get forum banned.... Most folk would have been.

P. Breathnach

MugMugs wrote: »

You questioned a mod decision on thread. The world and it's mothers knows that's a no no. You're lucky you didn't get forum banned.... Most folk would have been.

There are times when I think this particular forum is the most hostile one on boards.ie. The Feedback Forum exists so that people who are not entirely happy with the way boards is run can express their concerns and seek to bring about improvement. Some posters are dealt with in belligerent manner.

Yes, darced did question a mod decision, but not in any obvious sense of challenging it - it looked like asking for the basis of a mod decision.

Further, it happened in a feedback thread, where the rules cannot really be applied in quite the same way as in other threads,

MugMugs

Who's being hostile? Question was asked, answer was given. Simples.

K-9

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The direct question was asking why a user was banned, that's a no no site wide. Considering the thread is asking for feedback on AH and explicitly states in the first post than cards and bans aren't to be discussed, I see no problem with the thread ban whatsoever.

The wording was a bit harsh as the mod apologised for, that doesn't make the ban wrong.

P. Breathnach

K-9 wrote: »

... Considering the thread is asking for feedback on AH and explicitly states in the first post than cards and bans aren't to be discussed, I see no problem with the thread ban whatsoever....

It doesn't say that.