Carb Cycling for fun and physique

amazingemmet

The aim of this post is to introduce people on this forum to carbohydrate cycling as a form of dieting. I'll cover the basic set up of how to choose your macro's and how to assign high and low carb days.

What exactly is carb cycling?

Carb cycling, more correctly should be called nutrient cycling is a style of dieting where we aim to alternate days of higher carbohydrate lower fat intake with days of higher fat lower carb intake. In the basic set up outlined total caloric intake will be roughly the same each day.

Is carb cycling for me

In my mind carb cycling is for everyone who has the basics of nutrition down. [url=http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055157091 This thread covers the basics in more detail then I'm going to go into here [/url] I find carb cycling works particularly well with women as it avoids the potential down regulation of thyroid function that can accompany low carb dieting.

So lets talk some numbers

So these numbers I've come to by the advanced skill of guesstimation and trial and error with clients.

For women:

High carb days:

Protein : 1.6g per kg of body weight
Carbohydrates: 2-2.5g per kg
Fats: as low as possible

Low carb days:
Protein: 1.8-2g per kg of body weight
Carbohydrates: 0.5g-1g per kg
Fats: 0.22-0.44g per kg

For men:

High carb days:

Protein: 2-2.5g per kg of body weight
Carbohydrates: 4-6.5g per kg
Fats: as low as possible

Low carb days:

Protein: 2.75g per kg of body weight
Carbohydrates: 1-3.5g per kg
Fats: 0.3-0.8g per kg

When counting nutrients we'll only count nutrients from each food group, ie we won't count the protein in veggies or oats or the fats in meats (unless fatty cuts are chosen) but if you're using normal dieting food we'll ignore these additional macros which will add up to a couple of hundred extra cals a day but this is covered in the amounts of each nutrient chosen.

So how many days of each per week:

There is no one size fits all answer on this. The amount of higher carb days will depend on your goals and training volume.

If you're looking to lose fat then start with 2 high carb days a week.

If you're looking to gain muscle while keeping bodyfat under control then start with 4 high carb days a week.

If your training volume is more geared towards strength or just lower volume use the lower ends of the nutrient ranges

If you're training volume is higher volume/ sports training use the higher ends of the nutrients.

How to set up the plan

First you need to work out total nutrients for the day, in this example I'll use a 60kg female.

High carb day:

Protein: 100g
Carbs: 120g
Fats: whatever is in the meat and other food choices for the day but none extra

Low carb day:
Protein: 120g
Carbs: 40g
Fats: 18g

Now we know our total nutrients we have to decide on how many meals per day. In my experience most average trainees do well with 4 meals a day, this strikes a good balance between what is practical with a normal routine and staving off hunger. In a practical sense meal frequency is over rated as long as at the end of the day you hit your macro targets the results won't vary much between 2 meals versus 8 meals.

So assuming 4 meals a day for our female above

Then one high carb meal will look like this:

25g of protein, 30g of carbs, fats what ever is going.

An example of this would be:

125g of beef, 3/4 cup of rice, cooked measure and some broccoli/green veg


The basic supplement stack

This is the basic supplement stack 90% of my clients are on per day
50mg of zinc
10-15g of fish oil
200-500mg of magnesium pre bed
2g of vitamin C
600mg of calcium

So how to succeed:
Take 20-30mins each evening to prepare your meals for the day ahead
Track your intake, using myfitnesspal or fitday.com
Be consistent, this is the most important piece of advice.
Track your results! positive or negative you need to know whats going on so you can adjust accordingly

Overview

The above is a quick start guide to carb cycling, there is many tweaks that can make it more effective on a case by case basis but the above will cover most cases.

El_Dangeroso

I hope you missed a decimal on the fish oil, because 10-15g is a ridiculous amount to try and choke down, never mind counterproductive.

I've done carb cycling before, but I never ate less than 1000 calories on a high or low carb day, that's just starvation dieting. It will deliver results I don't doubt but down-regulation of the thyroid will happen in the face of severe caloric restriction regardless of macro breakdown.

amazingemmet

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I hope you missed a decimal on the fish oil, because 10-15g is a ridiculous amount to try and choke down, never mind counterproductive.

10-15g over the course of the day is sfa, its 3x1000mg capsules a meal
and in the context its not counter productive.

El_Dangeroso

amazingemmet wrote: »

10-15g over the course of the day is sfa, its 3x1000mg capsules a meal
and in the context its not counter productive.

It is counter productive because only a small amount of omega 3 is needed from food sources, more than that is to invite problems with oxidation. More important to drastically reduce omega 6 while eating oily fish 3 times per week.

amazingemmet

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

It is counter productive because only a small amount of omega 3 is needed from food sources, more than that is to invite problems with oxidation.

Source? peer reviewed studies with blood tests only please.

El_Dangeroso

Just 3g a day of fish oil increases insulin resistance and LDL

Increased LDL would be fine if it weren't oxidised, but fish oil seems to do that too.

LDL oxidisation increases with fish oil intake

The odd bit of fish oil supplementation is fine as long as it's reasonable (even then eating fish nutritionally speaking is about 100 times better) but 10-15g a day is completely outside what you can reasonably obtain from food and there is no evidence to say it's beneficial.

amazingemmet

I've been reading this all day since earlier and there's no clear consensus tbh. There's a meta analysis floating around which points out that the main factor is the amount of peroxides in the fish oil in consumption that might be a factor in Ldl oxidation rather then the fish oil itself. You can also see there's a big difference between brands of fish oil with the better quality ones adding anti oxidants, vitamin E etc to lower the rate of oxidation.

On a whole though there's a lot more studies promoting the benefits of higher Omega-3 supplementation then there is ones against.

El_Dangeroso

For sure there are studies showing benefit but they last less than two years, the longer term ones are just coming out now and they are revealing concerning aspects of supplementation.

Fish comes with built in co-factors to counter oxidation, which fish oil doesn't have.

Sangre

Just giving this thread a bump has it has some excellent information; this is something I hope to try in a few weeks.

Stench Blossoms

Have you an example of a low carb day?

Reason I ask is that any low carb days I have would have way more than 18g of fats.

Low carb day = tiny calorie day no?

P - 120 * 4 = 400kcals
C - 40 * 4 = 160kcals
F - 18 * 9 = 162 kcals
Total = 722 kcals
Lets be generous and round to 1000kcals

That's a shockingly low amount of food for anyone to eat imo.

FWIW, when I was a keto/low carb cycler I'd have been down at sub 20g of carbs a day, but would be taking in at least 90g of fat as well as 100g+ protein.

Mellor

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Low carb day = tiny calorie day no?

P - 120 * 4 = 400kcals
C - 40 * 4 = 160kcals
F - 18 * 9 = 162 kcals
Total = 722 kcals
Lets be generous and round to 1000kcals

That's a shockingly low amount of food for anyone to eat imo.

FWIW, when I was a keto/low carb cycler I'd have been down at sub 20g of carbs a day, but would be taking in at least 90g of fat as well as 100g+ protein.

I think the rates are a little low for females.

A 75kg guy comes in about 1800 cals on low carb days.

amazingemmet

Re-read the first post you're only counting the main macro in each food type, ie 100g of chicken ~20g of protein but also 6g of fat or 100g of oats is roughly 55g of net carbs but also 10g of protein and 7g of fat

Why would we ignore that? (just for simplicity's sake I guess)

I'd prefer to just give someone a target band.
e.g For person X on a low carb day hit 40-50g of carb (total), 85-110g of fat (total), 135-150g protein (total).
--

I think ignoring 'secondary' nutrient intake (can I use that there? A high protein food may have moderate fats but we ignore these) can lead to massive fluctuations in what people may actually be taking in.

It's kind of like saying to someone that when budgeting for a trip to the Costa Del Sol to only count the cost of the flight, what about the hotel? We can't just ignore it!

For instance, the person that chooses Turkey instead of beef in the stir fry gets almost no fat, and eats less calories. They're both 'protein' foods but one has a 'secondary' nutrient value that we're just discounting.

Also, would be a massive fan of simply eating fish as opposed to supplementation. Supplementation has it's place (and I use it regularly), but healthy eating choices can be made on whole, natural foods.

Carb cycling is a very effective way of cutting bodyfat (in my own experience), I just dislike the idea of 'discounting', especially for simplicity's sake (it reminds me an awful lot of 'Points')

amazingemmet

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would we ignore that? (just for simplicity's sake I guess)

Exactly this. There's many ways to do this, the reason I do it this way is then people don't have to log everything they eat into MFP or fitday. They just have to think, right I have to eat 600g of meat, 400g of rice/oats and two servings of nuts.

The way presented in the op was just a starting place, Obviously you have to change the intake based on more physical activity ie someone with mma training + weights/conditioning is going to have a much bigger intake then someone who spends 15 hours a day sitting.

Meh, just give them the full picture. It only takes a week or two of logging food accurately to see what you should and shouldn't be eating in order to hit specific ratios of macros.

What happens when clients constantly eat on the wrong side? (Secondary nutrients can add up and knock you out of ratio)

amazingemmet

90% of the people I work with literally just want to be told what to eat and at what times. They genuinely don't give a toss about educating themselves about any nutrition, tracking stuff or anything else. Its a sad state of affairs but it seems to be the majority. What I find is the people who are genuinely interested will be able to educate themselves to a certain degree then will only ask me questions to either clarify things or for where to get more info.

As to the ratio question as long as they're consistent I can work with that its the inconsistent ones that have no chance.

Transform

amazingemmet wrote: »

90% of the people I work with literally just want to be told what to eat and at what times. They genuinely don't give a toss about educating themselves about any nutrition, tracking stuff or anything else. Its a sad state of affairs but it seems to be the majority. What I find is the people who are genuinely interested will be able to educate themselves to a certain degree then will only ask me questions to either clarify things or for where to get more info.

As to the ratio question as long as they're consistent I can work with that its the inconsistent ones that have no chance.

100% agree - most people are tuned into the same radio station which is WI FM, what's in it for me.

Just want to be told what to eat, what to avoid and how to cook it

connollys

what should i avoid? And what should I eat and how do I cook it?

Transform

connollys wrote: »

what should i avoid? And what should I eat and how do I cook it?

its all covered in the stickies