Gardaí - What would you do if spoken to in Irish?

An Coilean

I am interested to know how members of the Gardaí would react if a member of the public insisted on using Irish.

There was a case a while back of a Garda arresting someone for doing this and I am curious to know how other members of the Gardaí would react in a similar circumstance.

An Coilean

An Coilean wrote: »

I am interested to know how members of the Gardaí would react if a member of the public insisted on using Irish.

There was a case a while back of a Garda arresting someone for doing this and I am curious to know how other members of the Gardaí would react in a similar circumstance.

Apologise for my lack of Irish and try get a member who does. Something that I'm not proud of and want to rectify.

hfallada

I imagine they would get an irish speaker on the phone for you. Someone on boards once said that even Dublin bus inspectors had a number for an Chinese translator so they could find a Chinese person who spoke "no English"

Zambia

I imagine the same thing as when a non engilsh speaking polish person needs to speak to them.

An Coilean

Zambia wrote: »

I imagine the same thing as when a non engilsh speaking polish person needs to speak to them.

Do you think Irish should be treated the same as a foreign language in cases like this?

source

Answer if able, if not, get an interpreter.

There is a right to have your business conducted through Irish if you wish. Though that doesn't mean a Garda who is not fluent has to try speak Irish. As Zambia said, it's dealt with the same way as someone who only speaks polish, French, Spanish etc

An Coilean

source wrote: »

if not, get an interpreter.

Well this is the important bit I suppose, the question is, if the Garda at the scene does not have Irish, is it appropriat for them to detain the member of the public untill someone with sufficient Irish can be found?

I am not saying that people should just be let off if the Garda does not have Irish but at the same time is it acceptable that to use Irish with the Gardaí you potentially will be detained for quite some time while an interperter is found, in the case I mentioned above the person was arested and brought to the Garda station for several hours while an Irish speaking Garda was sourced. That would put a person choosing to use Irish at a significant disadvantage to a person choosing English and would act as a disencentive for people to use Irish when dealing with the Gardaí.

goldie fish

An Coilean wrote: »

Do you think Irish should be treated the same as a foreign language in cases like this?

The constitution assures it.

An Coilean

goldie fish wrote: »

The constitution assures it.

Assures what? That it should be treated like a foreign language in such cases or that it should not?

Zambia

An Coilean wrote: »

Do you think Irish should be treated the same as a foreign language in cases like this?

100% , I would imagine there are very few people left in Ireland who speak only irish.

If someone is refusing to speak to English well they are basically trying to be a smart ass.

Its not that smart, so they are just being an ass.

goldie fish

An Coilean wrote: »

Assures what? That it should be treated like a foreign language in such cases or that it should not?

The irish language has equal place to English in all matters. All government documents, business and communications may be carried out in both languages, and all printed matter must be available in both.


Article 8
1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.
2. The English language is recognised as a second official language.
3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

An Coilean

goldie fish wrote: »

The irish language has equal place to English in all matters. All government documents, business and communications may be carried out in both languages, and all printed matter must be available in both.

Well not really, in theory Irish actually has a superior position to English rather than equal but in practice Irish very rarely even has an equal position to English and it is not true that all printed material must be available in both languages, the Official Languages Act sets out a fairly limited list of material that must be provided in Irish.

An Coilean

Zambia wrote: »

100% , I would imagine there are very few people left in Ireland who speak only irish.

If someone is refusing to speak to English well they are basically trying to be a smart ass.

Its not that smart, so they are just being an ass.

Its true that most Irish speakers also speak English, but why does that mean that they should have to speak English when dealing with the state? Irish is the first language of the state after all, does it not follow that people should be facilitated by the state in using it if they want to?

I don't get how an Irish person choosing to speak Irish in Ireland is being an ass.

Zambia

An Coilean wrote: »

Its true that most Irish speakers also speak English, but why does that mean that they should have to speak English when dealing with the state? Irish is the first language of the state after all, does it not follow that people should be facilitated by the state in using it if they want to?

I don't get how an Irish person choosing to speak Irish in Ireland is being an ass.

Does this include when they ring 999 in an emergency?

discus

An Coilean wrote: »

Its true that most Irish speakers also speak English, but why does that mean that they should have to speak English when dealing with the state? Irish is the first language of the state after all, does it not follow that people should be facilitated by the state in using it if they want to?

I don't get how an Irish person choosing to speak Irish in Ireland is being an ass.

For the sake of expediency, they could choose to speak english.

Pappa Charlie

An Coilean wrote: »

I am interested to know how members of the Gardaí would react if a member of the public insisted on using Irish.

There was a case a while back of a Garda arresting someone for doing this and I am curious to know how other members of the Gardaí would react in a similar circumstance.

I'd deal with them through Irish because I can but I would give them particular scrunity because in my opinion the are probally trying to frustrate a prosecution, the only people I met who did this were drunk drivers and once they realised I had the ability to deal with them they reverted to English. IMO it's an abuse of the language by some who claim to hold it dearly!

smcgiff

An Coilean wrote: »

Do you think Irish should be treated the same as a foreign language in cases like this?

Yes, levels of competent Irish among the populace are too small to restrict garda recruitment among competent Irish speakers.

That someone is detained longer because they insist on conversing in Irish is of no concern to me. I've yet to hear of anyone in Ireland that is not a competent speaker of English.

carzony

In other words if a Gardaí does know another language it's dead handy but really there's no need to know a second language considering an interpreter should be available?

goldie fish

An Coilean wrote: »

I am interested to know how members of the Gardaí would react if a member of the public insisted on using Irish.

There was a case a while back of a Garda arresting someone for doing this and I am curious to know how other members of the Gardaí would react in a similar circumstance.

Have you details of the case you speak of? A link for example? Because it sounds like the exact opposite of what I was taught in Templemore.

markpb

goldie fish wrote: »

Have you details of the case you speak of? A link for example? Because it sounds like the exact opposite of what I was taught in Templemore.

In one instance an Irish speaker who had been stopped for a minor road traffic matter in Dublin was arrested and detained until a garda was found to deal with him through Irish.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0312/376254-garda-irish-language/

yellowlabrador

I think this whole question points to the failure of the Irish education system. I thought it was a requirement for a gard to have leaving cert honours Irish. So after 13 years of study a gard can't understand an Irish speaker? I once tried to study Irish, which would be my 6th language and I thought of trying to chat with some leaving cert students. It was a failure. If they haven't learnt it by heart, they don't know it. They weren't even willing to try for fear of mistakes. I you are frightened of making mistakes you won't learn.

An Coilean

goldie fish wrote: »

Have you details of the case you speak of? A link for example? Because it sounds like the exact opposite of what I was taught in Templemore.

During the investigation, replies were received in writing from the Garda Síochána authorities and those involved in the incident were interviewed separately. The investigation found it surprising that neither of the two members of An Garda Síochána who stopped the driver at the roadside had sufficient Irish to ask “Cad is ainm duit?” or to request the driver’s address in Irish; nor was there any effective system in place to support them in dealing with the case without resorting to arresting the driver and escorting him in handcuffs to the Garda station. If they had established the driver’s identity through Irish, he would not have been arrested under section 107 of the Road Traffic Act 1961. The Gardaí in question were members of the force who had received their education through the Irish education system and had completed their training as members of An Garda Síochána in Templemore some short years previously. It emerged during the investigation that the Gardaí involved appeared to suggest that those who wished to conduct their business through Irish should be treated in the same way as “foreign nationals”; that concept came into use regularly in the discourse surrounding this matter.

Page 39 of this report has all the relevant details of the case in question.
http://www.coimisineir.ie/downloads/Annual_Report_2012.pdf

An Coilean

Zambia wrote: »

Does this include when they ring 999 in an emergency?

Of course it should. That an Irish speaker will use English in an emergency if obliged to do so because there is no other choice is not a rational argument against providing a choice.

goldie fish

An Coilean wrote: »

Page 39 of this report has all the relevant details of the case in question.
http://www.coimisineir.ie/downloads/Annual_Report_2012.pdf

Genuinely, I am shocked at that. There is no excuse for it, given the training being provided used to see a new garda leaving Templemore with enough irish to prosecute a drink driving case from beginning to end. Roadside to courtroom.

Standards must have slipped.

kub

I do feel Gardai should be competent in Irish, but i also do not see the point in someone who's normal language is English choosing only to converse with a Garda in Irish.

I have a feeling that they would not do the same while been served in their local shop.

notharrypotter

FF senator requesting probe to be carried out as gailge.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ff-senator-demands-probe-into-expenses-is-conducted-in-irish-29329236.html

Many people have an cupla focal when it suits.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

I think most people would agree that somebody who insists on dealing with a garda exclusively in irish is being a c*nt, and if the garda's grasp of irish isn't up to the same standard, then why is there a problem with forcing them to wait for a translator?

carzony

goldie fish wrote: »

Genuinely, I am shocked at that. There is no excuse for it, given the training being provided used to see a new garda leaving Templemore with enough irish to prosecute a drink driving case from beginning to end. Roadside to courtroom.

Standards must have slipped.

In all fairness you wouldn't be using the language all that much and i'd imagine after even a year or two you'd nearly forget most of what you've learned.

goldie fish

kub wrote: »

I do feel Gardai should be competent in Irish, but i also do not see the point in someone who's normal language is English choosing only to converse with a Garda in Irish.

I have a feeling that they would not do the same while been served in their local shop.

Not if their local shop is in Fionn Trá, An Rinn or Cúl Aodha.

smcgiff

goldie fish wrote: »

Not if their local shop is in Fionn Trá, An Rinn or Cúl Aodha.

I imagine there are enough garda proficient in Irish for deployment in Irish speaking areas. I imagine it would suit certain garda as I can't imagine there being a lot of serious crime in such areas. Although it would probably inhibit prokotion prospects.

However, I see little need for many Irish speakers based at store street station.

goldie fish

smcgiff wrote: »

I imagine there are enough garda proficient in Irish for deployment in Irish speaking areas. I imagine it would suit certain garda as I can't imagine there being a lot of serious crime in such areas. Although it would probably inhibit prokotion prospects.

However, I see little need for many Irish speakers based at store street station.

Well that would be a huge mistake.

In the past, as was their right, PIRA suspects, when being questioned at checkpoints would only answer their questioner in Irish.

smcgiff

goldie fish wrote: »

Well that would be a huge mistake.

In the past, as was their right, PIRA suspects, when being questioned at checkpoints would only answer their questioner in Irish.

At checkpoints. Checkpoints targeting the likes of PIRA members. In that case it would make sense to include Irish speakers.

The point I'm making is that there is no need for every garda to have conversational Irish.

audidiesel

id like to have it but sadly my german is superior to my irish at this stage. its taught very poorly in schools. irish as an official language is a nice thing in theory, but the way it was taught to me in the early 90's was woeful. memorising the odd bit of poetry basically.

you get the odd gowl who tries it to get away with something, but my basic level matches theirs so they soon give up.

ive only ever come across one person genuinely speaking it. once id gotten past the basics like name and address, I essentially had to give him the option to wait for an irish speaker or else switch to English.

WilcoOut

audidiesel wrote: »

i

ive only ever come across one person genuinely speaking it. once id gotten past the basics like name and address, I essentially had to give him the option to wait for an irish speaker or else switch to English.

t pal tried to pull a fast one

saltandpepper10

its actually an ambition of mine to learn irish just to have a negative interaction with one of our blue uniformed friends.have a way better plan mind you of working in a spar /deli /pub and preparing a subsidised meal for are freeloading guardians of the peace

WilcoOut

saltandpepper10 wrote: »

its actually an ambition of mine to learn irish just to have a negative interaction with one of our blue uniformed friends.have a way better plan mind you of working in a spar /deli /pub and preparing a subsidised meal for are freeloading guardians of the peace

get back to work


and dont be stingy with the hang and cheese

go raibh mile maith agat

An Coilean

Johnny Electricity wrote: »

I think most people would agree that somebody who insists on dealing with a garda exclusively in irish is being a c*nt, and if the garda's grasp of irish isn't up to the same standard, then why is there a problem with forcing them to wait for a translator?

Mainly because this is Ireland and Irish is not a foreign language but is instead the first national language, a whole raft of legal precident clearly says that the state is indeed obliged to facilate the use of Irish by Irish citizens regardless of their ability to speak English and the Gardaí as upholders of the law should have no business in breaching it.

markpb

An Coilean wrote: »

Mainly because this is Ireland and Irish is not a foreign language but is instead the first national language, a whole raft of legal precident clearly says that the state is indeed obliged to facilate the use of Irish by Irish citizens regardless of their ability to speak English and the Gardaí as upholders of the law should have no business in breaching it.

I'm curious to know how you see this working. I agree that you're legally correct but the reality is that most people in Ireland do not use Irish so even if all Gardai are fluent when passing out, they won't use Irish on a day to day basis and will, over time, lose it.

An Coilean

smcgiff wrote: »

I imagine there are enough garda proficient in Irish for deployment in Irish speaking areas. I imagine it would suit certain garda as I can't imagine there being a lot of serious crime in such areas. Although it would probably inhibit prokotion prospects.

However, I see little need for many Irish speakers based at store street station.

You would think so but unfortunatly that does not mean that Gaeltacht areas actually have competent Irish speaking gardaí stationed in them.
Its not a reflection on the individual Garda, but a Garda or any public servant stationed in a Gaeltacht area who does not have competent Irish is simply not fit for purpose.

Only 1 in 9 Gardaí stationed in Gaeltacht area spoke Irish

An Coilean

markpb wrote: »

I'm curious to know how you see this working. I agree that you're legally correct but the reality is that most people in Ireland do not use Irish so even if all Gardai are fluent when passing out, they won't use Irish on a day to day basis and will, over time, lose it.

There are more than enough Irish speaking Gardaí in the force to provide an appropriate service. All Gardaí should have a basic standard of Irish sufficient to ask basic questions, give directions etc. On top of that fluent Irish speaking Gardaí should be identified so that in a case where the Garda at the scene does not have sufficient Irish to deal with the member of the public these Gardaí can be contacted on the phone to deal with the member of the public and provide a translation as needed for the Garda at the scene.
Each division should have a number of Gardaí competent to provide such a service with a list of their contact details kept at each station.
This should be sufficient for routine contact with the public that does not involve someone being arrested.

bravestar

An Coilean wrote: »

There are more than enough Irish speaking Gardaí in the force to provide an appropriate service. All Gardaí should have a basic standard of Irish sufficient to ask basic questions, give directions etc. On top of that fluent Irish speaking Gardaí should be identified so that in a case where the Garda at the scene does not have sufficient Irish to deal with the member of the public these Gardaí can be contacted on the phone to deal with the member of the public and provide a translation as needed for the Garda at the scene.
Each division should have a number of Gardaí competent to provide such a service with a list of their contact details kept at each station.
This should be sufficient for routine contact with the public that does not involve someone being arrested.

I could add a 101 other things to your "should" list, that are far more pressing, but that's not really the point. If the Garda you are dealing with does not speak the language you want to speak in, then tough luck, your going to wait until someone comes along to assist the Garda that can speak it. Be that another Garda or an interpreter. If whatever you were doing was that pressing a matter, then speak whatever language the Garda is speaking and get on with it.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

An Coilean wrote: »

Mainly because this is Ireland and Irish is not a foreign language but is instead the first national language, a whole raft of legal precident clearly says that the state is indeed obliged to facilate the use of Irish by Irish citizens regardless of their ability to speak English and the Gardaí as upholders of the law should have no business in breaching it.

Would engaging the services of a translator not count as facilitating the use of the Irish language?

markpb

An Coilean wrote: »

There are more than enough Irish speaking Gardaí in the force to provide an appropriate service. All Gardaí should have a basic standard of Irish sufficient to ask basic questions, give directions etc

They might have it at the start of their career but I can't see many of them maintaining that level of fluency unless they use it every day. This means being based in an area where people actually use Irish and, from my experience, that doesn't mean a Gaeltacht where, in *some* cases, Irish seems to be a cultural identity rather than a language that people actually use.

An Coilean

Johnny Electricity wrote: »

Would engaging the services of a translator not count as facilitating the use of the Irish language?

Detaining someone for several hours while a Garda with sufficient Irish is found is not considered to be satisfactorily fulfilling the obligation to facilitate the use of Irish by members of the public, no.

An Coilean

bravestar wrote: »

I could add a 101 other things to your "should" list, that are far more pressing, but that's not really the point. If the Garda you are dealing with does not speak the language you want to speak in, then tough luck, your going to wait until someone comes along to assist the Garda that can speak it. Be that another Garda or an interpreter. If whatever you were doing was that pressing a matter, then speak whatever language the Garda is speaking and get on with it.

Well no actually its not tough luck, its a breach of commitments made by An Garda Síochána and the right of citizens to use Irish when dealing with the state. The organisation has been investagated several times already for failures in this regard and do seem to be making some progress in getting their act together but there is still plenty of room for imporvement.

An Coilean

markpb wrote: »

They might have it at the start of their career but I can't see many of them maintaining that level of fluency unless they use it every day. This means being based in an area where people actually use Irish and, from my experience, that doesn't mean a Gaeltacht where, in *some* cases, Irish seems to be a cultural identity rather than a language that people actually use.

Well then you are not very aware of the modern Irish language community, there are more fluent daily speakers of Irish outside of the Gaeltacht than in it, its not something only spoken out whest.

As for the Gaeltacht itself, head out to An Cheathrú Rua and see (Hear) for yourself that Irish is still used as a community language.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

An Coilean wrote: »

Detaining someone for several hours while a Garda with sufficient Irish is found is not considered to be satisfactorily fulfilling the obligation to facilitate the use of Irish by members of the public, no.

But who says it takes several hours?

An Coilean

Johnny Electricity wrote: »

But who says it takes several hours?

If the translator is on hand when the person is stopped by the Garda or contacted in a short space of time to provide the service then fine, my comment was in relation to the case I previously linked to in which a member of the public was arrested and detained for several hours for choosing to use Irish.

markpb

An Coilean wrote: »

Well then you are not very aware of the modern Irish language community, there are more fluent daily speakers of Irish outside of the Gaeltacht than in it, its not something only spoken out whest.

So why are those areas still called Gaeltachts?

As for the Gaeltacht itself, head out to An Cheathrú Rua and see (Hear) for yourself that Irish is still used as a community language.

That's why I said, and highlighted, the word: some.

An Coilean

markpb wrote: »

So why are those areas still called Gaeltachts?

What areas, the point is that while there are Irish speakers in the Gaeltacht that is not the only place they are found, there are in fact more fluent Irish speakers outside of the Gaeltacht and as such it is clearly not impossible or in truth even particularly dificult to maintain a competent fluency in Irish in any part of the country.

There are some parts of the official Gaeltacht where Irish is no longer widely spoken and yes they should no longer have Gaeltacht status but that is a different discussion.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

An Coilean wrote: »

If the translator is on hand when the person is stopped by the Garda or contacted in a short space of time to provide the service then fine, my comment was in relation to the case I previously linked to in which a member of the public was arrested and detained for several hours for choosing to use Irish while an Irish speaking Garda was found.

If it's such a problem waiting then speak english. Times change, Gaelige is not widely spoken as once was, so if someone is going to deliberately awkward/stubborn then let them be detained.