Passive House - Lessons from Germany . Read Mod note in Post no 1

sinnerboy

Established in 2006 as a partnership between NHBC and the BRE Trust, the NHBC Foundation provides the house building industry with research and guidance on topical subjects to support industry challenges leading up to the Government’s 2016 zero carbon homes target.

These (UK) guys have published a useful study here called Lessons from Germany's Passivhaus experience.

Moderators note

Please do not post any comment on this thread without having first read this linked document

sinnerboy

The report notes 3 principal factors which have led to the rise in Passivhaus in Germany (my emphasis)

Social: The German population has a strong interest in the environment and an associated inclination to take action. While people in Germany....

Political: In addition to national regulations for the energy performance of
buildings, many individual cities have chosen to set their own energy and
environmental standards which mandate an even higher performance. Failure
to comply is treated as a regulatory offence and fines are issued.

Financial: The cost of building a Passivhaus home in Germany is now estimated at 3 to 8% more than building a home to the building regulations (known in Germany as EnEV)[2], and there is a variety of assistance available for financing this cost. Government and local loans are available at significantly discounted interest rates, and grants are available depending on the level of energy efficiency achieved.

So a virtuous circle exists exists in Germany . People are motivated to build in an environmentally conscious manner , they get beaten up financially for not doing so and rewarded financially for doing so.

The situation in Ireland of course is very different. However we could be like the Germans too and "motivated about the environment" if our Government used the same stick and carrot financial policies.

sinnerboy

While a Passivhaus home, by definition, concentrates on passive design features such as insulation, airtightness and solar orientation, it also allows certain active elements to be included – notably MVHR. The fundamental principle is that a Passivhaus home can maintain its designed internal temperatures and air quality simply by adding a small amount of heating or cooling to the air being circulated by the ventilation system, thereby eliminating the need for a traditional wet central heating system. In practice, for cultural or marketing reasons conventional central heating is often included, but it is important to realise that the Passivhaus standard ensures that it need not be.

I hope that sheds some light on questions raised in this thread

sinnerboy

Whose being paying attention here and can tell me the error made by the writers of the report at page 4 ?

sinnerboy

The Passivhaus Institut has developed a quality assurance and certification process in order to prevent false claims and abuse of the term ‘Passivhaus’. Compliance with the numerical Passivhaus requirements is verified at the design stage, and quality assurance measures are applied during the construction phase. The quality assurance measures include strong onsite management, multiple pressure tests during construction, detailed documentation of the MVHR commissioning and photographic evidence of the as-built construction elements.

So the PHI will first check your designers calculations and other documents ( drawings and specifications ) and then after insist on control measure during the works. In Ireland it is too often the norm is for all of the above to be either done on a very very nominal basis or not at all.

sinnerboy

... but for now I won't.

I'd much prefer the thread to be a discussion amongst those of us interested enough to read the report and to talk about those parts that each person finds most provoking or interesting.

I am a fan of PH but I do believe our UK chums here have taken an honest broker approach here highlighting negatives as well as positives.

Keen to hear what the rest of ye think ......

fclauson

sinnerboy wrote: »

Whose being paying attention here and can tell me the error made by the writers of the report at page 4 ?

Please sir - I think I know

fclauson

Picking on the point around maintenance of MHRV

If you have a boiler it needs an annual service (by a qualified technician) The beauty of MHRV is it can be done by the owner.

Now as with a car - the only reason people check their cars it to get it through a NCT/MOT - so how do we ensure MHRV systems are properly maintained.

In the UK 117 people died from CO poisoning in 2010 from poorly maintained gas appliance and there are no statistics I could find (although I am sure they are out there) of people who have visited a doctor with Asthma or similar due to poor air quality in their home.

I know you are all going to hate this one - So as part of the regs with a MHRV system then you should like you car or boiler get an annual "cert of correct operation". You car can kill people if not fully road worthy, your gas appliance can do the same - MHRV kill someone - probably not - but run a significant health care bill for the government

contentious yes - but you did ask for comment.

(I would also ban smoking in houses - would love to see an MHRV filter of a 40 a day smoker !!)

sinnerboy

Self builders / occupiers must carefully note all you say here fc about MVHR. This is the achilles heel of all buildings which use MVHR ( i.e. not specific to PH).
It is all very well for a person like you who will recognize and take responsibility for the required maintenance.

But what of housing provided for the unknown end user. Those who may be unaware / uncaring to be responsible to maintain the system.

This is a report from 2008 from a bad experience in Holland. I have read other reports ( that I can't locate know - sorry ) that implicated poor design , installation and vitally no meaningful instructions to the end users. So if the Dutch can mess up on this scale .......

sinnerboy

Here

like a hoover, if the filter is not replaced the system stops working.

The BRE’s report said: “There is no market for replacement filters, with several manufacturers reporting no filter sales at all. Even basic maintenance is not undertaken.”

fclauson

sinnerboy wrote: »

...

But what of housing provided for the unknown end user. Those who may be unaware / uncaring to be responsible to maintain the system.

and that is why gas appliances have to be maintained by a qualified person - they are not complicated but you screw it up and you die

MHRV are not totally dissimilar

Dully

I have read the study with interest and find it very comprehensive in a lot of aspects.
I imagine this can become an interesting and long discussion and I have difficulties to express my thoughts in short.
Hence I pick one point:
Costs / Finances
I´m at a total loss as why PH /low energy building and it´s costs are always mentioned in the same sentence.
People have had and still have no problem to pay for location, design, interieur, size, shape, gadgets. Houses have been build 100% over what they were worth (yes, be honest, even at the time)
The argument always arises over the details that actually give a pay back (apart from speculative building). Who discusses payback on kitchen, car, garage, landscaping? Exactly. Yet you can have day filling discussions over 2inch of insulation and its payback time.
PH costs 3% 10% 15% more than traditional build? And why not????
Some provocative thoughts:

• They last longer. No coldbridge, high spec insulation, airtightness, means less risk of condensation, less risk of elements rotting. Generally higher quality (with exceptions)

• Less / zero risk of mould. It is estimated that we spend about 90% of our time in buildings and that about 50% of respiratory diseases can be tracked back to poor indoor air quality

• Comfort levels are higher. Would you find it daring if I say that you live in general healthier in a PH?

Now calculate the cost savings for the owner and the society. Less sick leave, less costs to the health system, housing stock usable for longer periods, .
What would you spent as a government to cut back sick leave by let´s say 15%, decrease in respiratory and allergy diseases by 40%, oil import by 20%, re-animation of construction and industry, leading role in building technics and you prolong peoples life expactancy.


What it has to do with the study? Do you think Merkel is a tree hugger? German banks want to save the world? Certainly not. I believe there a bone dry calcuations going on in the background.


Lesson learned from Germany:

Successfull model for both home owner and economic that can be adapted to UK/Ireland if adjusted to local circumstances. Don´t look at Germany as a role model but appreciate that they have made a million mistakes over the last decades. No need to repeat them.
Ireland in a bit special position as the market in general is too small to set up certain factories. One may have to live with the fact that some products still need to be imported for that reason.

sinnerboy

The marketing of kit houses in Germany revolves around health and wellbeing, thermal comfort and sustainable building materials, as well as the knockon advantages of short construction time and fixed prices. .. There is a general enthusiasm for high product specifications and attention to detail, and these are exploited as key marketing features.

Look at the German consumers priorities here and contrast with our own.

When most chase quality first the price falls .
When most chase price first the quality .......... ? anybody ?

fclauson

To pick up one other point - over heating - these last few days have been lovely - and my house temp has increased from around 22/23 to 23/24

If I had opened a few more windows etc it would have dropped back to the 22/23 but we have been away in England so this was not possible

Summer bypass has opened and hence we are supplying air at the same temp as the OAT

There is much talk about window shading etc - and we do have a few blinds to help with this - but I think its key to note the rented dormer classic type house we lived in prior to the current one after even a day of these sort of temps would be unliveable in upstairs !!!!

just do it

sinnerboy wrote: »

Keen to hear what the rest of ye think ......

I'll add my contribution before reading replies from others. First and foremost it a welcome and interesting publication, as you say, attempting to give an unbiased view on the PH concept. The one big question for someone considering building to the standard is "what's the occupancy satisfaction rating of current certified PHs, and would they recommend it?". The resounding answer is a big Yes.

My thoughts in no particular order:

Reading through the issues encountered one would feel they are either more applicable to the German climate (summer overheating, low internal humidity, cost of connection to district heating system) or individual occupancy heating preferences/ knowledge of heating controls. Early adopters in Ireland will no doubt be highly involved in the design stage of the build, be more likely to incorporate some level of a tradition wet heating system, and be interested and knowledgeable in the heating controls, particularly of the MHVR system.

Oh for an Irish version of the KfW bank! (dream on...)

There has been discussion recently on here about the average size of a German home. It is interesting to note the average German build tends to be bigger than in the UK, with both appearing to be well below the average Irish self-build. However it must be borne in mind both countries are predominantly urban based with tight control on rural development. Most self-builds in Ireland are on rural sites. It must also be noted the German treated floor area doesn't usually include the basement which contains the plant room, laundry room, and other storge areas.

The report highlights occupants lament the lack of a cold room/ larder. Sas has noted in his PH that fresh produce tends to go off alot quicker. Personally this may be something we need to look at as a substantial proportion of our weekly shopping trolley is fresh produce.

The certification process and rigorous verification process is highlighted and a very real benefit in the Irish context.

So overall nothing especially new in the report, but gives comfort to those considering going the extra mile to build a certified PH. Given current buidling regulations, the cost differential of 3-8% is probably also valid in the Irish context.

Agree with the suggestion by the UK Passivhaus Trust that it would be appropriate in principle for Passivhaus certification to be afforded the status ‘deemed to satisfy’ in relation to the energy component of the UK building regulations. To add further to that point, in the Irish context it would seem appropriate a re-think regarding the renewable element requirement ought to be considered where a build is certified PH. This would potentially act as a strong incentive.

just do it

fclauson wrote: »

Picking on the point around maintenance of MHRV

If you have a boiler it needs an annual service (by a qualified technician) The beauty of MHRV is it can be done by the owner.

Now as with a car - the only reason people check their cars it to get it through a NCT/MOT - so how do we ensure MHRV systems are properly maintained.

In the UK 117 people died from CO poisoning in 2010 from poorly maintained gas appliance and there are no statistics I could find (although I am sure they are out there) of people who have visited a doctor with Asthma or similar due to poor air quality in their home.

I know you are all going to hate this one - So as part of the regs with a MHRV system then you should like you car or boiler get an annual "cert of correct operation". You car can kill people if not fully road worthy, your gas appliance can do the same - MHRV kill someone - probably not - but run a significant health care bill for the government

contentious yes - but you did ask for comment.

(I would also ban smoking in houses - would love to see an MHRV filter of a 40 a day smoker !!)

Two extra points on this

1. Cost advantage to regular check on the air filter, and change when necessary. The heat recovering efficiency of the MHVR is affected by a dirty filter
2. Legionnaires' disease - new homes now have a piped ventilation system which in commercial buildings have been a source of legionnaires' disease. Not something I've considered until reading this post by FC.

just do it

The over-riding conculsion from this report is the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages. Issues are minor and well within the occupants control to negate.

What of the current Irish building stock (and I'm talking since the celtic tiger)? The average response to high oil bills has been slapping an insulated plasterboard onto the external walls with no improved ventilation. Nevermind occupants, most Irish builders wouldn't be able to tell you where is the dew point? Have we a large issue brewing due to this practice?

fclauson

just do it wrote: »

.... Have we a large issue brewing due to this practice?

I think so - our local school got insulated without ventilation - it had mould - they have now got a couple of 6 inch holes in the wall and the kids think the room is even colder and hate sitting under these

just do it

The old saying a chain is only as strong as its weakest link comes to mind. Certified PH ensures all links are of equal strength. Does the Irish regulatory response (2011 building standards & 2014 building controls regulations) do so? I think my opinion is obvious.

sinnerboy

People get what they want ultimately. Those (2014) regs did go out to public consultation last year so all had the chance to have their spake.

just do it

Another point has come to mind which isn't mentioned in the report. There is now 20yrs of PH experience in Germany and the fact there has been no mention of degradation of the building fabric (and increase in annual heat demand) over this time would lead to the deduction that those buildings are still performing as designed. This adds confidence to building to the standard and installing a heating system spec'd to the required heat demand and heat load.

sinnerboy

All dwellings were heated through the MVHR system with an integrated heating element, some having additional radiators installed in the bathrooms. 80% of occupants found the dwelling sufficiently warm in winter. Many occupants struggled to become accustomed to the slower response of the warm air heating system, which led to a lower satisfaction rating on temperature response and controllability.

To be quite caustic about it 20% therefore were not satisfied. So to coin an Irishism "to be sure to be sure" I would seriously consider a tiny conventional heating system and Denby Dale is a good case in point. You may rarely need to call on the power of the system ( which would be - by comparison to heating systems we are normally accustomed to - tiny ) , but in the case of a 2010/11 winter , if you had sick or aged relatives to stay or if you find you are simply one of the 20% who apparently are not comfortable at 20 degrees - you have the back up.

So if I may take a stab at a sound-bite answer to the question "why bother to go (certified ) passiv" - I would say the answer is simply QA . Quality Assurance.

smellyfinger

sinnerboy wrote: »

To be quite caustic about it 20% therefore were not satisfied. So to coin an Irishism "to be sure to be sure" I would seriously consider a tiny conventional heating system and Denby Dale is a good case in point. You may rarely need to call on the power of the system ( which would be - by comparison to heating systems we are normally accustomed to - tiny ) , but in the case of a 2010/11 winter , if you had sick or aged relatives to stay or if you find you are simply one of the 20% who apparently are not comfortable at 20 degrees - you have the back up.

So if I may take a stab at a sound-bite answer to the question "why bother to go (certified ) passiv" - I would say the answer is simply QA . Quality Assurance.

Yes I understand exactly what you are saying above, if we need to certify it as passive it costs a few grand for the plaque on the wall but if we used their methods, especially the window details and eliminated the cold bridging and got a good air tight seal then its easier to heat the house and far more comfortable to live in it. Cavity wall construction is not the way to go anymore but try to get the guys training in fas and vocational schools to change and get the curriculum changed and then we are making progress.

sinnerboy

Please don't say-what-I'm-saying because you are incorrect.

I am saying the reason to go certified is not for something trivial but something substantial namely quality assurance.

The first certified passive house in the UK and the first A1 BER / Certified PH in Ireland are both cavity wall construction.

smellyfinger

the first certified passive house in the UK was 'cavity wall construction'. where did you get this information. remember that you used the word 'certified'. i would be interested in a link if possible and if you are correct then i will acknowledge it.

sinnerboy

smellyfinger wrote: »

the first certified passive house in the UK was 'cavity wall construction'. where did you get this information. remember that you used the word 'certified'. i would be interested in a link if possible and if you are correct then i will acknowledge it.

I decline your kind offer.

smellyfinger

a passive house and an A rated house are completely different as you know and a passive house may not get an A rating either.

sydthebeat

smellyfinger wrote: »

a passive house and an A rated house are completely different as you know and a passive house may not get an A rating either.

Ah here.....

if this is the limit of your input, you'd be better off finding a different forum to post in.

smellyfinger

sydthebeat wrote: »

Ah here.....

if this is the limit of your input, you'd be better off finding a different forum to post in.

I should have said A1. as there are no solar panels or pellet stoves or woodburning stoves necessary to provide heat or hot water in a Passive House then it wont meet the criteria for an A1 rated home in Ireland.

sydthebeat

smellyfinger wrote: »

I should have said A1. as there are no solar panels or pellet stoves or woodburning stoves necessary to provide heat or hot water in a Passive House then it wont meet the criteria for an A1 rated home in Ireland.

let me simply it for you

you said

Cavity wall construction is not the way to go anymore

sinnerboy quite correctly pulled you up on this when he said

The first certified passive house in the UK and the first A1 BER / Certified PH in Ireland are both cavity wall construction.

Obviously he then declined to do you google work for you, which you still seem not to have bothered doing.

The first "A1 rated and Passive certified" house in ireland was build by cavity wall construction.


everything you have said in your last two posts are akin to saying water is wet.
are you trying to make a sentient point in this thread? if so, what is it?

just do it

smellyfinger wrote: »

Cavity wall construction is not the way to go anymore

Why not? I've looked at all different build types and in the end have decided to go with wide cavity. Why am I wrong?

fclauson

smellyfinger wrote: »

I should have said A1. as there are no solar panels or pellet stoves or woodburning stoves necessary to provide heat or hot water in a Passive House then it wont meet the criteria for an A1 rated home in Ireland.

I would only partially agree - a house need heat - we have had a number of periods of dull grey no solar days here in Ireland when the house temp would have slumped had I not had back up heating

sydthebeat

just do it wrote: »

Why not? I've looked at all different build types and in the end have decided to go with wide cavity. Why am I wrong?

you are not wrong.

rockabaloo

sinnerboy wrote: »

The first certified passive house in the UK and the first A1 BER / Certified PH in Ireland are both cavity wall construction.

Not quite accurate:

http://building.dow.com/eu/gbr/en/resources/news/firstpassivhaus.htm

sinnerboy

rockabaloo wrote: »

Not quite accurate:

http://building.dow.com/eu/gbr/en/resources/news/firstpassivhaus.htm

Indeed thank you. Denby Dale is not actualy the first merely one of the first certified in England. It is the first there which used cavity wall.

http://www.greenbuildingstore.co.uk/page--denby-dale-passivhaus.html


.

just do it

sydthebeat wrote: »

you are not wrong.

I agree, but I'd like to hear why sf thinks I'm wrong

sinnerboy

fclauson

??

sinnerboy

There's no lack of void

I think this thread has run it's useful course now. If anyone would like me to re open it - having read the opening post first - please pm me.