An Post and Religion

Ah god love ya!

Hi all,

I was in the Santry branch of An Post the other day. I noticed they had a stand selling mass cards. There was no cash box so I presume you had to go to the counter to buy one.

Question is this: Does it bother anybody else that An Post is allowing a religious organisation use of its facilities like this? Is it right?

I wrote to An Post for an explanation and will let you know the outcome if I receive a reply. Maybe if any others feel strongly enough about it email them also...

Cabaal

Over the years they've also done religious stamps as far as I know too,

Sonics2k

Ah god love ya! wrote: »

Hi all,

I was in the Santry branch of An Post the other day. I noticed they had a stand selling mass cards. There was no cash box so I presume you had to go to the counter to buy one.

Question is this: Does it bother anybody else that An Post is allowing a religious organisation use of its facilities like this? Is it right?

I wrote to An Post for an explanation and will let you know the outcome if I receive a reply. Maybe if any others feel strongly enough about it email them also...

Genuinely could not care less. Lots of ships sell them, and just because they are sold there does not mean the staff are even religious themselves and have anything to do with it.

Its a small thing to simply sell religious themed cards. No-one is under any obligation to buy one.

We should only really be bothered about it if people are actually forced to get them, which they are not.

Removing religion from schools and so is a tad bit more important than a card in a post office l

donspeekinglesh

The santry avenue branch? Used to be run by a lovely person.
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/08/08/what-was-not-to-like/

Sarky

Does the church know they're doing it? They come down hard on that sh*t unless they have a license.

Sulla Felix

Need to choose the battles OP. While I can understand the sentiment, a national campaign to get mass cards removed from sale in semi-state agencies is likely to do more harm than good.

Obliq

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

The santry avenue branch? Used to be run by a lovely person.
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2012/08/08/what-was-not-to-like/

Jaysus, what are the odds? Every PO in my locality (small town west of Ireland) has Mass cards for sale - the one featured by the OP has a card-carrying right-wing catholic nut-job in it :pac:

DazMarz

I work for An Post, and believe me there is no religious slant to them at all.

Yes, they have issued religious stamps in their day and the Christmas stamps are usually religious in tone (Nativity scene or some such; but this year was different and a little bit more secular: a red candle lighting against a background of holly).

But there have been stamps commemorating scientific achievement and stamps depicting Bram Stoker's Dracula and other things that would seemingly clash with religion.

It should also be noted that in smaller An Post offices, anything not strictly An Post products (including greetings cards, mass cards, padded envelopes, etc.) are NOT provided by, endorsed by or sold by An Post. They are sold by the owners/operators of the post offices themselves. An Post would not protest this, as it usually items that customers would like to have available.

While An Post does generally frown on anything being displayed directly at the counter (particularly anything to do with a political party, fundraising or anything else that would/could be deemed "controversial"), a blind eye is generally turned to it once the office is being run correctly and properly. (A good example of this is in one of the offices I have worked in was the sale of lottery tickets for the local GAA Club and the display of GAA related posters; while at times the merchandising personnel and inspectors would move the GAA stuff, it was perfunctory at best and it would be back where it was once the lads were gone).

An Post is firmly secular and does not officially endorse any religion or faith at all. But as their sub-offices (smaller offices, typically those found in small towns) are contracted out to independent people, they can not have total control over what goes on in the offices. Anything overly "controversial", they will no doubt stop, but once it doesn't impinge too much, they won't be too concerned once the office is being run properly.

A personal aside: I found it very hard to stick to my contract one day. A woman came in with a rake of anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage postcards to be sent to Dáil representatives. The religious undertones and insidious nature of the campaign material, coupled with this woman's all too smiley, saccharine-sweet nature, made it very hard for me to want to put it in the post bag. The urge was to dump the whole lot into the bloody bin. The fact that I'm a firm and committed atheist (and bisexual to boot!) made it very hard not to sabotage this woman's campaign.

But I feared for my job, so I bit my tongue, and placed the lot into the post bag and reminded myself that I'm just one part in a huge corporate machine. But I still feel sick about it to this day. :mad:

Akrasia

I'm much more concerned about the acupresure wristbands sold on the counter of the local pharmacy.

boourns to that.

Turtwig

Oh yeah!
The amount of horse shyte some pharmacies sell. :mad:

Regarding OP,
Think this is seriously one of those one where you just have to pick your battles. Personally, don't see anything wrong with mass cards as long as I'm not being forced into a lifetime subscription for them.

Sulla Felix

Akrasia wrote: »

I'm much more concerned about the acupresure wristbands sold on the counter of the local pharmacy.

boourns to that.

Mine sells homeopathic snakeoil.

Penn

Our local post office isn't necessarily religious itself, but they have tv advertising screens up which, as well as mostly advertising local businesses, also throws up an above-average amount of bible passages (usually with a background of a lake at sunset and stuff like that). I presume it's the local church (or some of its biggest members) paying for it and doubt it's too expensive. Was half tempted to enquire how much it was to advertise and see about throwing up some science/atheist quotes, but as others said, pick your battles. They're doing no harm to anyone, it's not worth the hassle, and the only effect it would have would be that whoever paid for the religious ones would likely just pay for more.

Like Sonics2k said, removing religion from schools would be a battle worth fighting. An Post isn't.

sbsquarepants

Ah god love ya! wrote: »

Hi all,

I was in the Santry branch of An Post the other day. I noticed they had a stand selling mass cards. There was no cash box so I presume you had to go to the counter to buy one.

Question is this: Does it bother anybody else that An Post is allowing a religious organisation use of its facilities like this? Is it right?

I wrote to An Post for an explanation and will let you know the outcome if I receive a reply. Maybe if any others feel strongly enough about it email them also...

I don't see the problem. If you don't like them, don't buy one. Problem solved, no?

Jernal wrote: »

Oh yeah!
The amount of horse shyte some pharmacies sell. :mad:

The missus came home with teething gell for the baby the other day - highly recommended by the sister in law (a nurse, of all things). She's 3 months old and most of the teething stuff is only suitable from 4 months on.
When i had a look at the box it's a homeopathic teething gell, suitable from birth. I pointed out to her that it's suitable from birth because there's nothing in it, which didn't go down well! Pharmacies really shouldn't be selling this crap.

magicbastarder

sbsquarepants wrote: »

a homeopathic teething gell

which implies that it's not very dilute at all.

sbsquarepants

magicbastarder wrote: »

which implies that it's not very dilute at all.

Well it's a gell. It's the active ingredients that are "diluted" It also comes in granule form.

magicbastarder

how the hell can you granularise a homeopathic remedy?

actually, never mind. not much point in asking it to make sense.

Gregor Samsa

About 90% of Post Offices are privately owned and managed on contract with An Post. I assume these have the freedom to sell what they want along with the

For instance, in some cases, a Post Office can be inside a shop. That shop can also be selling alcohol and tobacco. This doesn't mean that An Post has anything to do with selling alcohol and tobacco.

sbsquarepants

magicbastarder wrote: »

how the hell can you granularise a homeopathic remedy?

actually, never mind. not much point in asking it to make sense.

Dehydrated water of course!:)

FouxDaFaFa

Interesting. I don't think our local one has cards of any kind, maybe some postcards, but I wouldn't see the mass cards in OP's example as a big deal. They're not being rammed down your throat, just offered.

DazMarz wrote: »

But I feared for my job, so I bit my tongue, and placed the lot into the post bag and reminded myself that I'm just one part in a huge corporate machine. But I still feel sick about it to this day. :mad:

Don't feel bad. You weren't endorsing their views, just appreciating that they have a right to be heard even if what they're saying is distasteful. Trying to suppress other people's views is a bad road to go down, even if it's hugely tempting. (I once ripped a full page anti-choice newspaper ad to shreds in anger, nobody's perfect).

Side question: if you are given something to post and somehow you know that it's explicitly threatening in nature (say it's written on a postcard), can you/An Post refuse to post it?

DazMarz

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

Side question: if you are given something to post and somehow you know that it's explicitly threatening in nature (say it's written on a postcard), can you/An Post refuse to post it?

As a general rule, we do not look at the content of a postcard. Against policy.

There are certain items (liquids, batteries, printer cartridges, etc.) that are restricted for airmail. And other items such as passports that are not supposed to be sent via the post, apart from via Registered post. There are obvious restrictions on illegal items (drugs, weapons, etc.) but once again, a person is unlikely to tell the counter staff that their parcel contains drugs, now are they?

HOWEVER... as much as we can say this to the customer, advise them not to send it, etc., should they insist that it be sent or demand that we send it regardless, we can do nothing but accept it and send it. It will erupt at the Dublin Mails Centre or at the Airport and will possibly be sent back to them, quarantined, confiscated or even destroyed should the need be. Packets/parcels are x-rayed before they go on planes and parcels can be examined by customs/Gardaí if need be to detect illegal/restricted items.

The bottom line is: it is not the responsibility of the staff in offices to stop items being sent. We can advise and so on that an item may not be sent, but ultimately if a customer wants to send something, they can insist on it and there's nothing we can do but send it and let the boys in the Mails Centre or Customs deal with it from there.

Ah god love ya!

Just to clarify; this branch is purely An Post. No shop attached.

I wonder what their view would be if I tried to set up a stand with secular sympathy cards? I doubt I would be allowed for fear every organisation, charity and what-have-you would try the same...

I agree, pick your battles but I can't help begrudge the special place the Catholic Church still seem to have in what should otherwise be a neutral environment.

Manach

If the OP see a gap in the market go for it, but the rather driven nature of his objection to such a minor matter, leaves one slightly agog at the nature of this, in the supposed neutral market place, which is anything but.

Sulla Felix

It's not that I dont agree. I just feel, if youre going to write one letter, let it be to your td in support of secular schooling or similar. If you've already written him, write another!
For me, given the general populations finite resources, low hanging fruit are not necessarily best picked first.

Obliq

Manach wrote: »

If the OP see a gap in the market go for it, but the rather driven nature of his objection to such a minor matter, leaves one slightly agog at the nature of this, in the supposed neutral market place, which is anything but.

Agog is a great word btw, I like it. As to being agog at the "driven" nature of his objection, surely "driven" is the nature of all objections, so perhaps being highly impatient, eager, or curious as to why he is driven is also driven? I am delighted we are no longer a nation of people who "lie down and take it" where it comes to the dominance of the Catholic Church in this supposed neutral/secular country. However, I take your point about the market place and I too advise going for the Atheist gap in the market place. It is sadly lacking.

MagicMarker

May as well post this here.

Does anyone know what the story is with the statue of Mary in the Ringsend Bus Depot?

endacl

Ah god love ya! wrote: »

Hi all,

I was in the Santry branch of An Post the other day. I noticed they had a stand selling mass cards. There was no cash box so I presume you had to go to the counter to buy one.

Question is this: Does it bother anybody else that An Post is allowing a religious organisation use of its facilities like this? Is it right?

I wrote to An Post for an explanation and will let you know the outcome if I receive a reply. Maybe if any others feel strongly enough about it email them also...

Doesn't bother me at all. And I say that as a 'militant'. There are bigger issues to be worrying about without going looking for offence. You wrote a letter? Seriously?

I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall when that one is opened...

endacl

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Mine sells homeopathic snakeoil.

Can't be homeopathic if its snake oil. Snake oil contains snake oil. No room for water.

Obliq

MagicMarker wrote: »

Does anyone know what the story is with the statue of Mary in the Ringsend Bus Depot?

I'll tell you some of the story......That poured cement lintel was never intended for the statue, the electricians went home with the job half done, it's not a hospital so they didn't need to paint it in "industrial flesh", and they have a serious guttering problem. Mary looks quite content in her box though....;)

Ah god love ya!

endacl wrote: »

Doesn't bother me at all. And I say that as a 'militant'. There are bigger issues to be worrying about without going looking for offence. You wrote a letter? Seriously?

I wouldn't mind being a fly on the wall when that one is opened...

Nah, I emailed it. I'm a true militant ya see...

I don't get why it's not ok for the church to have influence on a state body in the educational sense but it's ok if it's other senses so long as some think it ok, such as you do on this issue??? That begs the question; where do we draw the line? And are we going to have an Irish solution to an Irish problem? Why isn't it admirable for us to go for full separation of church and State and all be proactive about that?

FouxDaFaFa

You should have posted it.

*delicious irony of using An Post to post a letter complaining about An Post*

endacl

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

You should have posted it.

*delicious irony of using An Post to post a letter complaining about An Post*

There's a thread on irony floating about on AH. With precious few actual examples. I don't think they quite get it. Pop over and enlighten. It'll confuse them.

Obliq

Ah god love ya! wrote: »

where do we draw the line?

FouxDaFaFa wrote: »

They're not being rammed down your throat, just offered.

Manach wrote: »

If the OP see a gap in the market go for it

endacl wrote: »

There are bigger issues to be worrying about

Sonics2k wrote: »

Removing religion from schools and so is a tad bit more important than a card in a post office

Penn wrote: »

pick your battles.............
Like Sonics2k said, removing religion from schools would be a battle worth fighting. An Post isn't.

Where we (might) draw the line was answered mate AND what we can do about it. Get your atheist mojo on and make some cards......would be nice to have an alternative, I get that.

Benny_Cake

MagicMarker wrote: »

May as well post this here.

Does anyone know what the story is with the statue of Mary in the Ringsend Bus Depot?

Interesting..can't find anything about it online but others asking the same question. As far as I know, that depot has been there since the 1950s and prior to that it was a tram yard I think? The statue has probably been there a long time and is retained for sentimental reasons or as a memorial for deceased staff members. All supposition on my part of course.

Sulla Felix

Ah god love ya! wrote: »

I don't get why it's not ok for the church to have influence on a state body in the educational sense but it's ok if it's other senses so long as some think it ok, such as you do on this issue.

Because some things matter more. They really do. I, and most people have a limited amount of rescources (time, energy, whatever other measure you choose).
Also, strategically, you run the risk of alienating people on the sidelines if relatively trivial subjects are picked for scrutiny.
The perceived harm being done by these cards is close to zero. If we, as a group of people bound only by a single criteria, were to mount an offense against the mass cards in post offices across the country we may actually succeed in getting them removed. Some of that group will then "retire", uninvolved members of the public will be fatigued by the media coverage and so forth, so when it comes time to mount the next campaign, it can actually be less effective.
I'm probably not explaining this quite well, but there's quite a body of work behind advocacy and lobbying strategies, the primary tenet being that no group can hope to change everything all at once, so start with the most harmful and move on from there.
Put yourself in the shoes of the audience of your proposals, ie Joe Public. How is a campaign to remove mass cards going to look? We're on the cusp in this country of changing attitudes to schooling, people are beginning to see the point. I'm not sure they'd care similarly about the mass cards and precisely because of that I think it'd engender hostility.

jank

Ah god love ya! wrote: »

Just to clarify; this branch is purely An Post. No shop attached.

I wonder what their view would be if I tried to set up a stand with secular sympathy cards? I doubt I would be allowed for fear every organisation, charity and what-have-you would try the same...

I agree, pick your battles but I can't help begrudge the special place the Catholic Church still seem to have in what should otherwise be a neutral environment.

Don't an post sell normal cards like birthday cards, thank you cards and the like. Wouldn't they be 'secular'? WTF is a secular sympathy card anyway and why would you want to send one? Begrudge is of course the key word in your post. Australia post sell Christmas cards, easter cards and cards for Jewish holidays as well as a whole host of other things. It's a non issue and waste of time.

Akrasia

magicbastarder wrote: »

how the hell can you granularise a homeopathic remedy?

actually, never mind. not much point in asking it to make sense.

there's nothing wrong with selling dehydrated water

Pherekydes

jank wrote: »

WTF is a secular sympathy card anyway and why would you want to send one?

It's a sympathy card with no religious connotations. For people who are not religious. Straightforward, no?

sbsquarepants

Akrasia wrote: »

there's nothing wrong with selling dehydrated water

True. It's buying it i have a problem with!

endacl

sbsquarepants wrote: »

True. It's buying it i have a problem with!

http://www.buydehydratedwater.com/

kylith

endacl wrote: »

Can't be homeopathic if its snake oil. Snake oil contains snake oil. No room for water.

It could be homeopathic snake oil; 1 drop of snake oil dissolved in all the water on the planet.

recedite

Ah god love ya! wrote: »

Just to clarify; this branch is purely An Post. No shop attached.....
I agree, pick your battles but I can't help begrudge the special place the Catholic Church still seem to have in what should otherwise be a neutral environment.

+1. If this was a subcontractor who was running their own shop, they could sell whatever nick knacks they liked. But if its a semi state agency it should be religiously neutral.
People are making a mistake in this thread when they assume Mass cards are just like any other goods for sale. They are not, the card itself is not what is being sold. The card is simply a receipt to say a prayer has been purchased. It's a religious fundraiser, equivalent to selling "indulgences" in the old days.

By comparison, if scientologists tried to use An Post as a collection agency for payment of some imaginary service that would be "delivered" later, they would rightly be thrown out of the premises. So this is an example of the RCC receiving preferential treatment, simply because they have a tradition of legitimacy among the people.
Having said that, just because An Post are wrong in allowing this, does not mean that it is wise for secularist campaigners to launch a big campaign against the practice, as some posters have already pointed out.

Ah god love ya!

Doesn't have to be a campaign. Why not even just raise the topic with an email? An Post management ain't going to want to be seen as anything other than unbiased and fair to all in society.

This is what An Post has to say:

An Post do not sell mass cards as part of our official product range. We do not favour or act on behalf of any religious institution. Our policy would be to respect everybody's right to practice any religion or none as they so choose. We would deal with every and any religious organisation who wish to avail of our services, in a courteous and respectful manner regardless of their beliefs. We do not profit from the sale of any kind of greeting card unless it is posted with us and the appropriate fee is paid for the service.

So, Santry (Omni) must be in breach of official An Post policy then...

endacl

kylith wrote: »

It could be homeopathic snake oil; 1 drop of snake oil dissolved in all the water on the planet.

Ah, you'd need more water than that!

swampgas

MagicMarker wrote: »

May as well post this here.

Does anyone know what the story is with the statue of Mary in the Ringsend Bus Depot?

Is that Mary with a set of rosary beads? What does she say when she gets to all those Hail Marys - "Hail me, mother of God, blessed am I among women" ?

endacl

swampgas wrote: »

Is that Mary with a set of rosary beads? What does she say when she gets to all those Hail Marys - "Hail me, mother of God, blessed am I among women" ?

Nope. Mary was a Buddhist. Those are Buddhist prayer beads, not catholic prayer beads!

Sarky

Maybe those beads aren't, ahem, for prayer? >_>

endacl

Sarky wrote: »

Maybe those beads aren't, ahem, for prayer? >_>

Don't be ridiculous. Who's name would she call out while using them?

L1011

Ah god love ya! wrote: »

Just to clarify; this branch is purely An Post. No shop attached.

Still very likely a private business operating under contract. There's very very few non-central post offices owned by An Post.

If an An Post-owned office was selling them I'd be rightly annoyed but I'm fairly certain this one isn't theirs.

Your other option in Santry is to use Santry Avenue PO :eek:

Geomy

Whatever you do stay away from rural post offices, you might get rightly offended.

Do ye remember those dirty cartoon postcards from the 80s, down in my local shop they were placed right beside the mass card's.

As kid's we'd alway s go in have a look for a giggle lol

Those were the day's