Money out of Dairy Farming???

jocotty

hi,

a friend of mine is milking about 40 cows, rears all the calves until there 2 year old, and buys in about 20 cheap calves, and rears them also until there about 2.

He does all his own work, other than silage. He is a one man band, with no help. fixes all his own machinery, etc.

He owns about 65 acres of good land, and rents about 25 acres of bad land for the cattle. His palour is old enough, takes him about 1.5hrs to milk the 40 cows.

he's flat out working every day, with no time to do anything other than work, and to me, it looks like he's not making a penny.

is this sort of farming profitable, or is he doing something majorly wrong?

farmerjack

jocotty wrote: »

hi,

a friend of mine is milking about 40 cows, rears all the calves until there 2 year old, and buys in about 20 cheap calves, and rears them also until there about 2.

He does all his own work, other than silage. He is a one man band, with no help. fixes all his own machinery, etc.

He owns about 65 acres of good land, and rents about 25 acres of bad land for the cattle. His palour is old enough, takes him about 1.5hrs to milk the 40 cows.

he's flat out working every day, with no time to do anything other than work, and to me, it looks like he's not making a penny.

is this sort of farming profitable, or is he doing something majorly wrong?

Am hour and a half to milk 40 cows! Frig that!

I can only speak for myself, I am in my first year dairy farming milking 50 cows with the ambition to milk 150 in the near future and for me there is money in it, but the system has to be right and efficient. What your friend is at sounds like pure drudgery, farming doesn't have to be about hardship.

Timmaay

Its definitely possible to be profitable at that scale, but you need to have a decent businesshead, which not all farmers have. The margin is much better on dairying, so once he runs a tight ship on that side of things, ie low number of carry over cows, good grass management etc etc there is no reason he can't making enough from that to live on comfortably enough (ok with a modest lifestyle!). This is assuming two important things, 1stly he has a SFP, which he would if he has been at it the last 10/15yrs, and 2ndly he has no large borrowings.

The beef side of things does not offer the same margin, moving forward post quotas if I was that farmer I'd be flogging off anything that you can't put a cluster between their legs, and aim to milk 60cows. Fire in a more modern parlour and he could milk them comfortably in under an hour. Contract out alot of the machinary jobs, like slurry etc etc, be well setup in terms of fencing/laneways/yards, and you can most certainly reduce the workload and number of hours a wk you spend farming.

But thats just my opinion, he might be perfectly happy spending most his time on the farm!

bob charles

I guarantee you his is allot more profitable that most dairy farms if its well run. no out lay of money, no repayments and all work done inhouse. Just because he is working constantly doesnt mean he isnt as happy as a pig in sh*te. alternatively he could be married and enjoy spending as much time out of the house as possible

Alternatively he could build a nice new parlour and the works for say 100k buy a few bits and pieces of machinery say another 50k, double cow numbers to 80 (but he now is twice as efficient in the parlour but it takes him an hour an a half to milk 80cows), takes on more land, wears out his machinery X 2 and rips himself a new .......:D:D now thats what I call progress

bob charles

farmerjack wrote: »

farming doesn't have to be about hardship.

it sure doesn't, but give me farming hardship anyday over financial hardship, which is what has to happen to alleviate farming hardship by and large

jocotty

bob charles wrote: »

it sure doesn't, but give me farming hardship anyday over financial hardship, which is what has to happen to alleviate farming hardship by and large

ye could be right.

i know that he has no loans, or doesnt owe anyone any money, other than the morgage he has for his new house.

its just that he cant even afford to buy new machinery or anything, and just wondering how others do it, who have less stock, get contractors in to do all the work, and then you see with new tractors , slatted houses, palours etc.

bob charles

jocotty wrote: »

ye could be right.

i know that he has no loans, or doesnt owe anyone any money, other than the morgage he has for his new house.

its just that he cant even afford to buy new machinery or anything, and just wondering how others do it, who have less stock, get contractors in to do all the work, and then you see with new tractors , slatted houses, palours etc.

auld money, site money, hard work,big loans or easy finance. take your pick

mf240

jocotty wrote: »

ye could be right.

i know that he has no loans, or doesnt owe anyone any money, other than the morgage he has for his new house.

its just that he cant even afford to buy new machinery or anything, and just wondering how others do it, who have less stock, get contractors in to do all the work, and then you see with new tractors , slatted houses, palours etc.

All flash and no cash. Your friend is smarter than you think.

moy83

How exactly do you know that he cant afford new stuff ? If you were to listen to my father you would think that he couldnt afford tomorrows dinner .
But he milked thirty cows all his life without borrowings and did ok without them too .
The cutest farmers around arent always driving the newest tractor/car or have an acre of concrete or sheds full of cattle.
Anyone working flat out all their life most probably just likes work because if there is any bit of laziness in them they will always find an easier way of life

Viewtodiefor

jocotty wrote: »

hi,

a friend of mine is milking about 40 cows, rears all the calves until there 2 year old, and buys in about 20 cheap calves, and rears them also until there about 2.

He does all his own work, other than silage. He is a one man band, with no help. fixes all his own machinery, etc.

He owns about 65 acres of good land, and rents about 25 acres of bad land for the cattle. His palour is old enough, takes him about 1.5hrs to milk the 40 cows.

he's flat out working every day, with no time to do anything other than work, and to me, it looks like he's not making a penny.

is this sort of farming profitable, or is he doing something majorly wrong?

Definitely profitable and if he has a good head he may have more than your average 100 cow dairy man! Why wouldn't it be as long as he is somewhat efficient. If prices bottom out he has no loans so not a big deal when everything paid for. The problems arise when there are big loans to be paid.
I'd say he knows no different and doesn't want it any other way. Only time he will change is when he's in d grave. Not my cup of tea mind but then us younger generation are soft!

jocotty

thanks lads, you are all thinking along the same lines as me - but for a while i was wondering was it only me that was thinking like this.

ye are definitely correct in what ye are saying, and i am glad to hear ye'r opinions on this.

fair play to ye , and thanks.

Timmaay

bob charles wrote: »

Alternatively he could build a nice new parlour and the works for say 100k buy a few bits and pieces of machinery say another 50k, double cow numbers to 80 (but he now is twice as efficient in the parlour but it takes him an hour an a half to milk 80cows), takes on more land, wears out his machinery X 2 and rips himself a new .......:D:D now thats what I call progress

Hmm I see where all of yous are coming from in terms of going too far with the borrowings/stocking rates etc etc! But there certainly is a happy medium in the middle, in my view if that chap currently has 40cows, has the land to push that number up to say 60 post quotas if he ditches the whole beef side of things, put himself in a new parlour (and currently milking 40 in 90mins, sounds as if he could do with an upgrade), without going crazy on the borrowing side at all he would be able to reduce his overall workload (for dairycows, there is almost no difference between 40 and 60 in numbers, and then no beef side).

I'm not at all saying this is what he should do, if he is happy at 40 then thats fine, but pushing out from 40 to 60cows, in most cases isn't the incredible risk that some of you's appear to be making it out to be.

Viewtodiefor

Timmaay wrote: »

Hmm I see where all of yous are coming from in terms of going too far with the borrowings/stocking rates etc etc! But there certainly is a happy medium in the middle, in my view if that chap currently has 40cows, has the land to push that number up to say 60 post quotas if he ditches the whole beef side of things, put himself in a new parlour (and currently milking 40 in 90mins, sounds as if he could do with an upgrade), without going crazy on the borrowing side at all he would be able to reduce his overall workload (for dairycows, there is almost no difference between 40 and 60 in numbers, and then no beef side).

I'm not at all saying this is what he should do, if he is happy at 40 then thats fine, but pushing out from 40 to 60cows, in most cases isn't the incredible risk that some of you's appear to be making it out to be.

I agree with you on this one. If he put a value on his life/lifestyle, wouldn't he have a happier and more fruitful life??

jocotty

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

I agree with you on this one. If he put a value on his life/lifestyle, wouldn't he have a happier and more fruitful life??

ya, but he recons he wouldnt do without the beef, as he always cattle to sell whenever he needs some extra cash, when the cows might not be milkin much .

he has taut about it, and went up to about 45 cows there once, but went back to 40 again, buying in the 20 extra cheap calves to rear, and sell the beef when ever he needs . says it works out better.

he doesnt spend a penny on nuts or anything on the cattle, once the pass about a year old! they wouldnt be the best cattle, but he makes more he says then people who are pumping the hell out of them with nuts .

Viewtodiefor

jocotty wrote: »

ya, but he recons he wouldnt do without the beef, as he always cattle to sell whenever he needs some extra cash, when the cows might not be milkin much .

he has taut about it, and went up to about 45 cows there once, but went back to 40 again, buying in the 20 extra cheap calves to rear, and sell the beef when ever he needs . says it works out better.

he doesnt spend a penny on nuts or anything on the cattle, once the pass about a year old! they wouldnt be the best cattle, but he makes more he says then people who are pumping the hell out of them with nuts .

Yes that is a fair point however if he went for more dairy and applied himself methodically to it he would have spare cash to offset the low price years, there is Hugh management to get and keep a dairy herd profitable, not everyone can do it

jocotty

Viewtodiefor wrote: »

Yes that is a fair point however if he went for more dairy and applied himself methodically to it he would have spare cash to offset the low price years, there is Hugh management to get and keep a dairy herd profitable, not everyone can do it

ya, your probably right .
he's been milking since he was 16, which was nearly 20 years ago.
brought the heard up from 20 to 40, as well as triple the amount of cattle he keeps.
so, how can he make it more profitable??
whats he doing wrong that its not more profitable??

bob charles

jocotty wrote: »

ya, your probably right .
he's been milking since he was 16, which was nearly 20 years ago.
brought the heard up from 20 to 40, as well as triple the amount of cattle he keeps.
so, how can he make it more profitable??
whats he doing wrong that its not more profitable??

do you know he is not profitable in the first place ???

jocotty

bob charles wrote: »

do you know he is not profitable in the first place ???

just comparing him to other guys I know with similar size farms, if not smaller , who are going off buying new tractors, work almost 20k, and lots more with it, which to be honest is nearly most dairy farmers in Ireland these days.

this guy still drivin and old Ford 7000!!! and I know for a fact that he's not lumpin it up.

he's paying his mortgage, owes no one any money, living very basically, and that's it - no other luxuries what so ever.

RobertKK

If he is happy thats the main thing, he could change things but maybe he has peace of mind with what he presently does.

kfk

jocotty wrote: »

just comparing him to other guys I know with similar size farms, if not smaller , who are going off buying new tractors, work almost 20k, and lots more with it, which to be honest is nearly most dairy farmers in Ireland these days.

this guy still drivin and old Ford 7000!!! and I know for a fact that he's not lumpin it up.

he's paying his mortgage, owes no one any money, living very basically, and that's it - no other luxuries what so ever.

These guys going of buying new tractors might not have a cent to spare whereas your neighbor in the Ford 7000 could be swimming in cash! I remember not so long ago a trades man driving around in a BMW X5 and now he has an old Toyota Avensis! Just because someone is spending money does not mean they have the money!

bob charles

jocotty wrote: »

just comparing him to other guys I know with similar size farms, if not smaller , who are going off buying new tractors, work almost 20k, and lots more with it, which to be honest is nearly most dairy farmers in Ireland these days.

this guy still drivin and old Ford 7000!!! and I know for a fact that he's not lumpin it up.

he's paying his mortgage, owes no one any money, living very basically, and that's it - no other luxuries what so ever.

he could just be a saver and you dont know. You never know the depth of another mans pocket

Viewtodiefor

bob charles wrote: »

he could just be a saver and you dont know. You never know the depth of another mans pocket

If he's happy then that's all that matters, who cares what others drive or buy

moy83

Sure a ford 7000 is a fine lump of a tractor , no electrics or anything to bother you

Damo810

moy83 wrote: »

Sure a ford 7000 is a fine lump of a tractor , no electrics or anything to bother you

94 ponies, more than he'll ever need by the sounds of things. Can't understand the lads buying new tractors, and putting 300 hours up every year, with a monthly payment bigger than they make in a year from farming..

whelan1

Damo810 wrote: »

94 ponies, more than he'll ever need by the sounds of things. Can't understand the lads buying new tractors, and putting 300 hours up every year, with a monthly payment bigger than they make in a year from farming..

its so people can talk about them.....

kevthegaff

i have a fiat with a loader and a jeep milkin 90 cows gona expand but not with machinery, cant understand lads with s""t loads of machinery

cjpm

jocotty wrote: »

this guy still drivin and old Ford 7000!!! and I know for a fact that he's not lumpin it up.

Still driving one myself........

Oh the shame!!

moy83

cjpm wrote: »

Still driving one myself........

Oh the shame!!

You mut feel like a bet-down going up the road in it :rolleyes:
I did a job for a fella one time that was feeding alot of cattle on two farms with a bad looking 165 . He said he knew the neighbours thought he was "mane" but he didnt give a **** because he had a rolls royce in the kitchen that none of them had (a fine lump of an Aga ):D

manjou

This guy seems like he is fairly smart and if he has no debt probably gets a good nights sleep.Read somewhere once about a guy buying a new tractor and silage outfit for his own use and after so many years most was only scrap and if he had put same money into land would be alot wealthier and have something at end.So i would be taking notes from this fellow.

thenashlegend

moy83 wrote: »

He said he knew the neighbours thought he was "mane" but he didnt give a **** because he had a rolls royce in the kitchen that none of them had (a fine lump of an Aga ):D

I surely thought you were going to say his wife.:D

C0N0R

Christ were milking 60 cows and we only have a Ford 6600! We must be losing money!! This is the problem I see with Irish dairy farming, everyone thinks they need to go bigger to make money, the first thing you have to do is be efficient, control your costs and don't spend needless money on stupid things. I'd say that guy runs a fine outfit and is as happy as a pig in ****e, if he went off and spent 50k on a new tractor how would he make more money? He would be worse off, new tractor will drink more diesel, more expensive to run/service/fix and still only do the same job. Sure he would be able to listen to joe Duffy while spreading fert but that won't make him anything. He will be worse off. Typical Irish attitude, got to keep up with the neighbours.

jocotty

C0N0R wrote: »

Christ were milking 60 cows and we only have a Ford 6600! We must be losing money!! This is the problem I see with Irish dairy farming, everyone thinks they need to go bigger to make money, the first thing you have to do is be efficient, control your costs and don't spend needless money on stupid things. I'd say that guy runs a fine outfit and is as happy as a pig in ****e, if he went off and spent 50k on a new tractor how would he make more money? He would be worse off, new tractor will drink more diesel, more expensive to run/service/fix and still only do the same job. Sure he would be able to listen to joe Duffy while spreading fert but that won't make him anything. He will be worse off. Typical Irish attitude, got to keep up with the neighbours.

yes, your right, 100%, but im just amazed at how "the neighbours" can do it, spending money like its goin out of fashion, on a farm milkin about 50 cows - its the same all over Ireland, and cant be justifiable, as far as I can see, unless im missing out on something HUGE!! that's exactly my point.

Sam Kade

And the big question is, is he married does he have children?

yellow50HX

sometimes i do scratch my head when i see lads buying new machinery, but its all how its used (or not used in some cases). there is a neighbour of mine who only ever buys new machinery but then its might be on the farm for 20-30 years. he has ford 4600 bought new by his dad back in the 70's which is still purring like a kitten, he bought a new mower this year which replaced one that was bought in the mid 80's.

my ol lad thought i was nuts when i bought the digger about 10 years ago espically when i told him it was for the farm and that i wasnt planning on going out on sites. it is by far and away the most used bit of kit on the farm now (and has been for the last 10 years). its so much easier to do loader work in then the tractor and using the shuttle is a lot easier on the knees. My dad has farmers knee (like most farmers his age) and the constant pressure on the knee from heavy clutches over the years means that he'll have to get a knee replacment at some stage. If he was still rooting and tearing with the tractor he would probably be after having the operation by now.

There is a lot to be said for having a bit of comfort in your work enviorment and when you spend a fair bit of time in a tractor its nice to have a quite cab a radio and comfortable seat, power steering etc, you just dotn need to be buyign a brand new tractor to get it. that said the radio's in both our tractor and digger are both bust and have been for a number of years (keep saying i'll fix them but havent yet) and the moutings in teh seat of the tractor need to be fixed too was spreading fertizler the other evening and it was like falling down a stairs.

jocotty

Sam Kade wrote: »

And the big question is, is he married does he have children?

he is ya, 4 children under the age of 5 !

Sam Kade

jocotty wrote: »

he is ya, 4 children under the age of 5 !

He'd want to be making good money so.

whelan1

Sam Kade wrote: »

He'd want to be making good money so.

wait til they get older:rolleyes: i need a money tree for my lot

agriman27

I'm only a fairly new entrant to this profession and I am finding it difficult enough to know what to spend money on too. Could be doing with buying some necessary machinery (eg fertiliser spreader, topper) and don't know if its better to buy new stuff. The land needs drainage and reseeding. Just hard to know don't want to get into debt though. It's hard to balance the budget:pac:

Timmaay

agriman27 wrote: »

I'm only a fairly new entrant to this profession and I am finding it difficult enough to know what to spend money on too. Could be doing with buying some necessary machinery (eg fertiliser spreader, topper) and don't know if its better to buy new stuff. The land needs drainage and reseeding. Just hard to know don't want to get into debt though. It's hard to balance the budget:pac:

Fencing, reseeded, stock, and probably in that order! What do you have at the minute? Debt isn't a bad thing at all in fairness, once its good debt that let's you grow the business! You'll get a usable 2nd hand spreader for between 500 and 1000, and a topper for about 1000 also. About all you need machinery wise to start, contract out the rest of the machinery jobs and save your cash for things that actually generate you money! (grass and milk!)

agriman27

I'm don't milk I keep beef cattle but I just found this thread interesting. Seeing the different opinions on machinery and investment. I think the land has to be main priority to get right and work from that.

Sam Kade

whelan1 wrote: »

wait til they get older:rolleyes: i need a money tree for my lot

Yep that's for sure. My youngest finished secondary school this year.

whelan1

Sam Kade wrote: »

Yep that's for sure. My youngest finished secondary school this year.

my eldest just starting.....

jersey101

Do all our own work here, only reason we do is because we could never get jobs done when we wanted or there would be no fences left in the place, i have very little interest in machinery but there is alot to be said for being able to your own silage when you want to. More than likely wont be doing too much of our own work in years to come as i just prefer to look after the cows and will have very little time with numbers increasing

bob charles

Getting contractors to do most nowadays, including fert and topping and still caught for time

moy83

bob charles wrote: »

Getting contractors to do most nowadays, including fert and topping and still caught for time

Probably all the holidays you're taking bob:P

Juniorhurler

whelan1 wrote: »

wait til they get older:rolleyes: i need a money tree for my lot

My two are young, but jaysus child minding is as bad as a second mortgage

Mulumpy

bob charles wrote: »

Getting contractors to do most nowadays, including fert and topping and still caught for time

Half considering getting a permanent milker for next year might work out a lot cheaper than a couple a week and me still flat out. Be nice to free up time for other things.

Timmaay

moy83 wrote: »

Probably all the holidays you're taking bob:P

Probably having 18 different groups of animals Bob? (at least that's what you said you had before!).

bob charles

Timmaay wrote: »

Probably having 18 different groups of animals Bob? (at least that's what you said you had before!).

I never said that, I was using an example

whelan1

Mulumpy wrote: »

Half considering getting a permanent milker for next year might work out a lot cheaper than a couple a week and me still flat out. Be nice to free up time for other things.

would you orgainise that through frs as well?

kevthegaff

jes people think all dairy farmers are rolling in it! only have 200 euros in my savings account:D Its mostly established dairy farmers with no loans, lots of quota do well