If you had one heavyweight fighter to bet your life on in a round robin tournament?

sxt

Who would it be and why?

Vitali Klitschko. I don't think with his boxing skills and fighting skills that he would be at a disadvantage fighting anybody on that list Physically or mentally .

walshb

All fit and at their peak I'd go with Ali or Tyson. Ok, Tyson!

kerinethan

All in their prime, def Tyson!!

FTA69

Vitali, Holmes or Lewis. Tyson wasn't invincible.

walshb

FTA69 wrote: »

Vitali, Holmes or Lewis. Tyson wasn't invincible.

Nor were the others.

Frank Gallagher pissed

Big Lennox L

getuponthis

Tyson in his prime, followed by Vitali

not yet

Frank Gallagher pissed wrote: »

Big Lennox L

Ha Ha...

eagle eye

Lennox Lewis for me with Vitaly a close second.

colly10

In their prime I'd back Tyson, if my life was on it I wouldn't want someone else I backed to be facing him

Bench Press

a 20 year old mike tyson

Alpha Dog 1

colly10 wrote: »

In their prime I'd back Tyson, if my life was on it I wouldn't want someone else I backed to be facing him

Yeah definitely agree, Tyson Fury for me as well...

shamrock55

The brown bomber and he is not even on that list

Big Ears

shamrock55 wrote: »

The brown bomber and he is not even on that list

Never mind Tyson, Tyson Fury would take care of Joe Louis.
Amazing fighter for his time, but his small stature and technical flaws (particularly defensively), would mean he wouldn't last 5 rounds.

I know it almost sounds wrong to say it (because for his time Louis wasn't that flawed, and Fury is obviously massively flawed now), but that era of boxing is prehistoric to the current one.

cowzerp

Big Ears wrote: »

Never mind Tyson, Tyson Fury would take care of Joe Louis.
Amazing fighter for his time, but his small stature and technical flaws (particularly defensively), would mean he wouldn't last 5 rounds.

I know it almost sounds wrong to say it (because for his time Louis wasn't that flawed, and Fury is obviously massively flawed now), but that era of boxing is prehistoric to the current one.

Sad but true. Prime example of evolution of boxing.

shamrock55

Big Ears wrote: »

Never mind Tyson, Tyson Fury would take care of Joe Louis.
Amazing fighter for his time, but his small stature and technical flaws (particularly defensively), would mean he wouldn't last 5 rounds.

I know it almost sounds wrong to say it (because for his time Louis wasn't that flawed, and Fury is obviously massively flawed now), but that era of boxing is prehistoric to the current one.

Well joe louis was voted no 1 heavyweight boxer of all time by the ibro in their last poll in 2006 and no 1 greatest punchers of all time by ring magazine so i think ill still stick with louis

walshb

shamrock55 wrote: »

Well joe louis was voted no 1 heavyweight boxer of all time by the ibro in their last poll in 2006 and no 1 greatest punchers of all time by ring magazine so i think ill still stick with louis

I could say that Sal Sanchez was voted best ever 125 lb fighter, but I still wouldn't select him over Thomas Hearns, for example. Like it or not, Louis is not going to be on an equal footing if facing a Tyson or Foreman or Lewis or Klit or Bowe, or any other naturally heavier man. Not just heavier, but also talented.

shamrock55

Whatever about tyson or foreman i wouldnt even put lewis either klit or bowe in the same sentance as joe louis

wadacrack

Wheres Audley Harrision

cowzerp

shamrock55 wrote: »

Whatever about tyson or foreman i wouldnt even put lewis either klit or bowe in the same sentance as joe louis

Louis would not last 1 round with either Klitschko if they wanted him out early, Same as he wouldn't with Tyson, Foreman or probably David Haye in reality who I don't even rate as a Heavyweight assuming he threw a punch, Heavy weight Boxing was very low standard around Louis time and Although Louis was great his opposition was deplorable compared to Boxers the last 30 years.

Big Ears

If a prime Joe Louis got into a ring with a prime Arthur Abraham......my money is on Abraham.

That probably sums up my feelings on that.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

If a prime Joe Louis got into a ring with a prime Arthur Abraham......my money is on Abraham.

That probably sums up my feelings on that.

Come off it. Louis by brutal KO. Louis would not fare well against big talented heavies, but he beats any middles . Any of that super 6 he beats. He was 200 lbs after all. And was talented enough for AA

walshb

shamrock55 wrote: »

i wouldnt even put lewis either klit or bowe in the same sentance as joe louis

Nor would I, all of them would obliterate Louis.

Frank Gallagher pissed

Speaking of Bowe he was fighting today in kickboxing



Quite sad

shamrock55

Shur what do the irbo know about boxing seems all the experts are on here

cowzerp

shamrock55 wrote: »

Shur what do the irbo know about boxing seems all the experts are on here

Old timers tend to back their generations, Louis was from a time when Boxing was really bad.

sweetswing

Frank Gallagher pissed wrote: »

Speaking of Bowe he was fighting today in kickboxing



Quite sad

That's the most depressing thing I've seen in ages " sad just sad "

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Come off it. Louis by brutal KO. Louis would not fare well against big talented heavies, but he beats any middles . Any of that super 6 he beats. He was 200 lbs after all. And was talented enough for AA

I'll admit I've purposely picked an example that will have people a bit taken aback. Louis in modern terms is a Cruiserweight, but a big strong man no doubt, none the less. Abraham in current days is an average sized Super-Middle and was a massive Middleweight, however in the days of same day weigh ins and Joe Louis era, he'd be a Light-Heavyweight despite his small stature. There is one (granted big, very big) weight class between them.

Now I didn't just randomly pick a World level Super-Middleweight who isn't doing very well at the moment, Abraham has that compact turtle shell defence that was never seen or utilised to good effect in Joe Louis' era. I think Joe would struggle to land anything significant on Abraham from range, with the jab and left hook merely catching glove time and time again, and in an effort to put a dent in him would probably get close and go to war. Height and reach advantage negated, Abraham picks his shots more carefully and would lad big, hard counters.
Now if the light punching Billy Conn (who btw would weigh less than Abraham would on fight nights) could shake Louis up time and time again, you can bet Arthur Abraham would be capable if he were to land with some regularity.
Yes Louis is the much bigger man, and likely much stronger too. However if the smaller man can punch and is landing with regularity then he has every chance, especially if he's not taking as big in return. Look at Guillermo Jones vs Lebedev. Okay Jones has the height advantage but he's naturally a Middleweight at best. There's at least as big if not a bigger natural weight and size disparity than between Abraham and Louis.


Too end, I would like to point out that with a good few months training with a modern coach, particularly working on his footwork, not dropping his hands as he brings them back after throwing, or not having them low in general and Louis would likely beat Abraham with his natural physical advantages. But I genuinely believe, if you take the Joe Louis who walked into the ring at the Polo Grounds on the 18th of June 1941, and matched him with the best version of Arthur Abraham, Louis would get stopped.
Anyway very much hypothetical stuff here, I don't think anyone expected this debate to come from the thread topic

HigginsJ

Iron Mike in his prime was a freaking machine.

Jack Dempsey should have gotten a mention

downonthefarm

what about ernie shavers?
but deffo joe frasier

Big Ears

HigginsJ wrote: »

Iron Mike in his prime was a freaking machine.

Jack Dempsey should have gotten a mention

Dempsey ?, seriously.....are people just trying to rile me !!!
Surely even Walshb will agree King Arthur gets rid of Dempsey
The top point is correct, Tyson was something to behold.

Shavers is a dangerous fighter for mots guys, could really whack, but remember this is a round robin tournament to see who'd get the most wins if every top Heavyweight fought each other. Shavers might ko a few, but most will outbox him and stop him.

Frazier although an amazing Heavyweight for his time and a great style to stifle Ali, doesn't match up well against the modern Behemoths. He's already gonna lose the Foreman fight at the very least, and Lewis, both Klitschko brothers and Tyson aren't guys he'd do well against.

wadacrack

where is Joe walcott

Big Ears

wadacrack wrote: »

where is Joe walcott

Sunset Memorial Park Cemetery, New Jersey.

shamrock55

Well from that list there is no doubt in my mind in a round robin tournement it has to be ali he had it all not only could he dish it out but as we know he could take a few punches too and had stamina to go the distance i couldnt see any on that list giving him trouble maybe tyson if ali could get past the first 3 or 4 rounds i reckon he would wear down iron mike i know he did have trouble against smokin joe and foreman but came out on top in the end bar his one loss against frazier

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

Dempsey ?, seriously.....are people just trying to rile me !!!
Surely even Walshb will agree King Arthur gets rid of Dempsey
The top point is correct, Tyson was something to behold.
.

I'd pick Dempsey over Louis by KO, but Dempsey doesn't beat many of the great heavies that were bigger than him. Dempsey could be damn crude.

walshb

wadacrack wrote: »

where is Joe walcott

A LHW/CW at best who gets dominated by many true and talented heavies. Jersey was a slick artist, no doubt, but not big enough to win any round robin HW tourny.

shamrock55

cowzerp wrote: »

Old timers tend to back their generations, Louis was from a time when Boxing was really bad.

Like now with the klit brothers is it or any heavyweight for the last 20 odd years

cowzerp

shamrock55 wrote: »

Like now with the klit brothers is it or any heavyweight for the last 20 odd years

You've got to be joking!

The Brothers are so underrated now and under appreciated its unreal, Boxing is not mainstream like it used to be so only hardcore fans really know them

From about the time Tyson came along Boxing massively has improved, you could probably say at lower weights it started to improve just before that with Leonard Duran Hagler etc

Oh and for your information, Ali lost 5 fights and ken norton and Frazier where long before he was finished and arguably Spinks was before then too.

shamrock55

cowzerp wrote: »

You've got to be joking!

The Brothers are so underrated now and under appreciated its unreal, Boxing is not mainstream like it used to be so only hardcore fans really know them

From about the time Tyson came along Boxing massively has improved, you could probably say at lower weights it started to improve just before that with Leonard Duran Hagler etc

Oh and for your information, Ali lost 5 fights and ken norton and Frazier where long before he was finished and arguably Spinks was before then too.

Who worth a crap have either of those boys fought yer on about the low standard of opponant that joe louis fought the klit brothers have had their own "bum of the month club" heavyweight boxing has been dead from the moment douglas beat tyson

FTA69

They've beaten everyone they've been put in front of bar a hiccup from Wladimir in his early career and Vitali having to retire in fights he was winning due to unfortunate injury. The fact is that they'd present a massive challenge for any heavyweight champion past or present whether or not some people (oft blinded by history) care to admit it.

i couldnt see any on that list giving him trouble

Ali in my opinion was the "greatest" boxer of all time but the fact remains that some on that list above would probably beat him. Frazier gave Ali nightmares and Tyson was like a super version of him. Tyson was crisper, neater, had much better defense, was more explosive and hit harder. He would have been totally wrong for Ali. The likes of Wladimir and Vitali would tower over him, outweigh him by 3+ stone. Holmes would be more than a match for him on the outside.

The notion that Ali wouldn't be troubled by them is silly to be honest.

Big Ears

shamrock55 wrote: »

Who worth a crap have either of those boys fought yer on about the low standard of opponant that joe louis fought the klit brothers have had their own "bum of the month club" heavyweight boxing has been dead from the moment douglas beat tyson

I agree with match ups such as Holyfield vs Bowe, Holyfield vs Lewis, and Lewis vs V.Klitschko being of a particularly poor standard.
Even a past prime legend like Tommy Burns would destroy these young whippersnappers and their modern ways !

Wladamir Klitschko has beat David Haye, Ruslan Chagaev, Chris Byrd(x2), Sam Peter, Eddie Chambers, Tony Thompson (x2), Sultan Ibragimov, Calvin Brock, Lamon Brewster, Jameel McCline, Frans Botha, Axel Schultz, Monte Barrett, DaVarryl Williamson, Derrick Jefferson, Danell Nicholson, Ray Austin and Ray Mercer.
That's 20 wins against good and very good heayweights, yes no great fighters there, but to beat 18 different fighters to that standard is immesnely impressive.

Now his last 4 fights haven't been fantastic, 3 poor fighters in Mormeck, Wach and Pianeta and a rematch vs a guy he dominated the first time, but his next fight is scheduled to be against one of the top contenders about in Alexander Povetkin, which would be 21 wins against very high opposition. Certainly no bum of the month club, even if they look like it when they're faced with the quality of Wladamir.


Vitali hasn't faced quite as much opposition, but he still has wins over Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, Sam Peters, Chris Arreola, Odlanier Solis, Tomasz Adamek, Juan Carlos Gomez, Larry Donald, Vaughn Bean and Herbie Hide.
In general he probably hasn't been tested enough for a fighter of his ability, as imo his brother fought the more dangerous challengers during their period as Champions together.

cowzerp

shamrock55 wrote: »

Who worth a crap have either of those boys fought yer on about the low standard of opponant that joe louis fought the klit brothers have had their own "bum of the month club" heavyweight boxing has been dead from the moment douglas beat tyson

You're missing the point!
The so called average lads of these days, would be the very elite back then, Lad's the Klitscho's beat that would not even be known would destroy Louis, This is not knocking Louis, The Boxing standard is simply Higher, And the Brothers are even higher than that again.

Bum of the month now would trouble Louis, And all joking aside, Audley Harrison would most likely have battered Louis.

It's about time people stop believing the propaganda that Boxing was better, It wasn't, Some of the all time greats aren't that good in reality, Marciano been the prime example, would not even be a contender these days.

HigginsJ

cowzerp wrote: »

You're missing the point!
The so called average lads of these days, would be the very elite back then, Lad's the Klitscho's beat that would not even be known would destroy Louis, This is not knocking Louis, The Boxing standard is simply Higher, And the Brothers are even higher than that again.

Bum of the month now would trouble Louis, And all joking aside, Audley Harrison would most likely have battered Louis.

It's about time people stop believing the propaganda that Boxing was better, It wasn't, Some of the all time greats aren't that good in reality, Marciano been the prime example, would not even be a contender these days.

If you simply transplanted guys like Dempsey, Louis or Marciano to the here and now then yes. But if these guys were given proper strength and conditioning training, had nice long breaks like guys have nowadays (Dempsey for instance fought 85 times in 13 years, compare to Wlad's 63 fights in 17 years) then they would pose serious problems.

I don't think it's fair to downgrade old champions because they didn't have the advantages of modern fighters.

walshb

shamrock55 wrote: »

Who worth a crap have either of those boys fought yer on about the low standard of opponant that joe louis fought the klit brothers have had their own "bum of the month club" heavyweight boxing has been dead from the moment douglas beat tyson

Bottom line: Louis gets dominated if he met either Kilt. Dominated.

walshb

HigginsJ wrote: »

If you simply transplanted guys like Dempsey, Louis or Marciano to the here and now then yes. But if these guys were given proper strength and conditioning training, had nice long breaks like guys have nowadays (Dempsey for instance fought 85 times in 13 years, compare to Wlad's 63 fights in 17 years) then they would pose serious problems.

I don't think it's fair to downgrade old champions because they didn't have the advantages of modern fighters.

They'd still only be CW men today. Their height and build would be pretty much the same. Unless they bulked up and put on unnatural weight. That for me would see them lose some other qualities. Yes, Holyfield did it, but Holyfield was one in a million, plus, he wasn't small either.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Bum of the month now would trouble Louis, And all joking aside, Audley Harrison would most likely have battered Louis.
.

But you need to mention weight and size as the major reason? No? Louis for me was a more skilled man. Better overall puncher.

walshb

I see no votes for Bowe. At his absolute best he would take some beating. Look at what he has. Speed, wicked jab, size, great inside, reliable chin, decent stamina and could wallop. Yes, he's in my top three.

shamrock55

FTA69 wrote: »

They've beaten everyone they've been put in front of bar a hiccup from Wladimir in his early career and Vitali having to retire in fights he was winning due to unfortunate injury. The fact is that they'd present a massive challenge for any heavyweight champion past or present whether or not some people (oft blinded by history) care to admit it.



Ali in my opinion was the "greatest" boxer of all time but the fact remains that some on that list above would probably beat him. Frazier gave Ali nightmares and Tyson was like a super version of him. Tyson was crisper, neater, had much better defense, was more explosive and hit harder. He would have been totally wrong for Ali. The likes of Wladimir and Vitali would tower over him, outweigh him by 3+ stone. Holmes would be more than a match for him on the outside.

The notion that Ali wouldn't be troubled by them is silly to be honest.

Frazier was used to going the distance though tyson wasnt ali was too if he could get pounded for 12 rounds against foreman who hit every bit as hard as tyson then i think he could take tyson the distance too i just think he would be a bit too cute for tyson i think he would outmove outsmart and be too quick for the klit boys just my opinion though and if your good enough like ali undoubtably was i dont think the klit brothers height or weight advantage would be that telling just look at david haye and that giant lad he beat

walshb

shamrock55 wrote: »

Frazier was used to going the distance though tyson wasnt ali was too if he could get pounded for 12 rounds against foreman who hit every bit as hard as tyson then i think he could take tyson the distance too i just think he would be a bit too cute for tyson i think he would outmove outsmart and be too quick for the klit boys just my opinion though and if your good enough like ali undoubtably was i dont think the klit brothers height or weight advantage would be that telling just look at david haye and that giant lad he beat

Tyson went 12 rds several times and never looked gassed. He didn't go the distance as much as others because he knocked out so many opponents.

Foreman did not pound Ali for 12 rds.

Also, Valuev is a nothing compared to the brothers.

FTA69

Tyson was peak fitness and was more conditioned than the vast majority of boxers, his training regime was legendary. He only ever dropped off when he started unraveling in other aspects of his life, at his peak he was super fit.

As walsh said, Valuev was one of the worst champions in boxing history. He was absolutely rubbish. When Haye fought Wladimir he was utterly powerless and lost soundly. There isn't a massive skill deficit between Wladimir and Ali for that matter either.

badabing106

I think Mike tyson would an·ni·hi·late the likes of lennox lewis and Wladamir Klitschoko when they were not in their physical and mental prime

A current Wladamir klitschko (who is in his physical and mental prime)would beat a prime Mike Tyson . There is zero chance that a prime Tyson would ever beat a prime Vitali. That should be obvious to people ?