Bought used car with hidden problem

jacubo

I bought a car about two months ago and had to refill oil twice since then. It is burning a lot of oil. Is there any chance of returning car to its seller? He must have known about this issue. It was private seller.

Kristopherus

Not a hope. Its a case of caveat emptor in private sales. In other words its up to you to have everything checked out before buying.

Wicklowandy

Have you have to top up the oil, rather than refill it?

My car would be within tolerances if it used 1l/2000km, have you checked yours?

How many miles, and what kind of driving have you done in 2 months? Did you check if it had been serviced, or even if there was oil in when you got it?

billy2012

Must be a HONDA!!!!

kasper

billy2012 wrote: »

Must be a HONDA!!!!

1.4 vw

mgbgt1978

Toyota VVTi.

mgbgt1978

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Toyota VVTi.

Was gonna say the same thing. 1.4 corolla?

billy2012

I think you guys have missed what I was getting at.......anyway.........;)

billy2012

billy2012 wrote: »

I think you guys have missed what I was getting at.......anyway.........;)

I did anyway. Care to enlighten me?

Henry Ford III

If you return it on a Sunday before 7pm, with over 1/3 tank of fuel, whilst driving on 3rd party extension, and ensure the windscreen in unbroken the private seller is obliged take it back and give you 94% of the price back plus fresh socks and a Mars bar.

p.s. Private sale = caveat emptor.

jacubo

We checked oil when buying and it was there. Seller told us he replaced the oil and filter.

After about a month and driving maybe 300-500 km there was almost no oil at all. We heard strange noise made by engine so went to a mechanic to take a look (there was no signal on control panel that something was wrong). He told us there was almost no oil and replaced it. Then after another month again there was almost no oil again.

We drive just several hundreds kilometers per month. Yesterday we drove to Glendalough and back and it used about 60% of oil (it went down from more than half of oil to 'min oil' after driving just 125 km. So it uses A LOT of oil.

Yes, this is Toyota VVTI engine.

Wicklowandy wrote: »

Have you have to top up the oil, rather than refill it?

My car would be within tolerances if it used 1l/2000km, have you checked yours?

How many miles, and what kind of driving have you done in 2 months? Did you check if it had been serviced, or even if there was oil in when you got it?

A-Trak

Car/Engine/Fuel type/miles covered/amount of oil topped up?

Without that who knows?
My car burns 1L per 1000 miles more or less.

jacubo

Toyota Avensis, 1.6, petrol. Driving few hundred kilometers per month.

Our mechanic replaced whole oil so according to manual he topped up 3-4 liters. And it was gone after about a month.

A-Trak wrote: »

Car/Engine/Fuel type/miles covered/amount of oil topped up?

Without that who knows?
My car burns 1L per 1000 miles more or less.

MidlandsM

them totoya's need an intravenous supply of oil to them.......and then some of them are grand.........strange yokes.....you've just been unlucky to get one like that.

you've got 2 choices, live with it, checking the oil (actually dipping it) every 3 or 4 days and topping he up as need be...

..or get rid of it.

Cungi

jacubo wrote: »

Toyota Avensis, 1.6, petrol. Driving few hundred kilometers per month.

Our mechanic replaced whole oil so according to manual he topped up 3-4 liters. And it was gone after about a month.

Is the oil definately being burnt or is it leaking? Seems like a lot to burn.

djimi

jacubo wrote: »

Our mechanic replaced whole oil so according to manual he topped up 3-4 liters. And it was gone after about a month.

If you are going by the dipstick then dot to dot is about a litre (give or take, depending on the car).

My Integra uses about about a litre of oil every 700-800km (thats normal driving). I wouldnt expect a healthy Avensis to use that much. Is there any indication as to where it is going? Any obvious leaks? Excessive smoke from exhaust? Black soot around bumper etc?

jacubo

I heard this is known issue with petrol engines for Toyota but rather for 1.8 or 2.0 engine than 1.6. So maybe I'm just unlucky.

If my calculations are right it uses about 1l per 200 km which is A LOT. I'm seriously considering third option which is either replacing the engine or fixing it.

MidlandsM wrote: »

them totoya's need an intravenous supply of oil to them.......and then some of them are grand.........strange yokes.....you've just been unlucky to get one like that.

you've got 2 choices, live with it, checking the oil (actually dipping it) every 3 or 4 days and topping he up as need be...

..or get rid of it.

jacubo

It is being burnt. It produces smoke of white color when pressing acceleration pedal. There is also some leakage but according to our mechanic it is not significant. Also there is no signs of oil on our drive way.

Cungi wrote: »

Is the oil definately being burnt or is it leaking? Seems like a lot to burn.

MidlandsM

replace the engine? with what, a secondhand unit? Shure that might be an oil burner too? You've no way in telling with 2nd hand engines .

jacubo

You're right. At first I thought about replacing it but now am tending towards fixing it.

MidlandsM wrote: »

replace the engine? with what, a secondhand unit? Shure that might be an oil burner too? You've no way in telling with 2nd hand engines .

mickdw

You should be checking oil a hell of a lot more than you are given that you know its burning oil.
Buy oil in suitably large quantity so that price isnt going to be a huge issue and add it in as required. Twice a week might be a reasonable schedule for checks as well as making sure its at max level before any long journey etc.
You are playing a dangerous game letting it go so low.

mgbgt1978

jacubo wrote: »

It is being burnt. It produces smoke of white color when pressing acceleration pedal. There is also some leakage but according to our mechanic it is not significant. Also there is no signs of oil on our drive way.

Should be fairly bluish smoke if it's burning that much....and you should be able to smell it.


.....and i was right. It is a Toyota VVTi......;)

jacubo

Well before I felt happy about new car and presumed it was fine.

But now I check it every day and make notes. Sometimes even twice a day. But if usage of 1l per 200 km is confirmed then I will need to do something.

mickdw wrote: »

You should be checking oil a hell of a lot more than you are given that you know its burning oil.
Buy oil in suitably large quantity so that price isnt going to be a huge issue and add it in as required. Twice a week might be a reasonable schedule for checks as well as making sure its at max level before any long journey etc.
You are playing a dangerous game letting it go so low.

corktina

caveat emptor would apply UNLESS you can PROVE the seller knew about a fault.Zero chance of that in all probability

jacubo

jacubo wrote: »

Well before I felt happy about new car and presumed it was fine.

But now I check it every day and make notes. Sometimes even twice a day. But if usage of 1l per 200 km is confirmed then I will need to do something.

Keep an eye on the oil level and it should give you years of trouble free motoring. I remember buying my corolla back in 07. I had researched the vvti engine and found out about the oil burning beforehand and the dealer even told me to keep an eye on it as it drinks oil. That didn't stop me. Sign of a good, honest dealer IMO. Keep a 5l drum of oil in the boot. Top it up every 10 days. The only bit of engine trouble I had in 4 years with that corolla was a failed coil.

HungryHaggis

jacubo wrote: »

Toyota Avensis, 1.6, petrol. Driving few hundred kilometers per month.

Our mechanic replaced whole oil so according to manual he topped up 3-4 liters. And it was gone after about a month.

When you say 'the oil was gone', do you mean that when you checked the dipstick there was no oil on it? That doesn't mean there is no oil at all in the engine (it would die very quickly and maybe quite spectacularly in that case), it just means that you have less than the official minimum level of oil (which is not good, but is not the same as no oil at all)

Sounds to me like you need to get in the habit of regularly checking your your oil level (maybe every couple of days, or every one hundred miles or so), until you find out exactly how much oil it's losing, and also if it is starting to lose it faster, or is fairly constant. (Top to bottom of the dipstick is probably half a liter to maybe as much as a liter, depending on the size and design of the engine).

You also want to be keeping an eye out as to where this oil is going. You don't have to be a mechanical genius to do this. Is there oil leeking from somewhere around the engine. Is there an oily patch where you park it at night. Does it smoke when you accelerate hard, or on the over run when you take your foot off the throttle.

You need to work out more precisely how much oil you are losing, and how you are using it before you know how bad it is. As others have said, it may be acceptable oil loss that you just get used to topping up at the same time as petrol. It may just be an oil leek that needs an easy and cheap to fit new gasket, or it may be something more expensive. Either way though, it's not the last owners problem, it's yours. After all, it's possible (but unlikely), that it broke just after you bought it.

If you don't know about cars, always take someone who does to check out a car you are buying, and if it's more than a cheap banger, pay for an expert from the AA or where ever to do a check/evaluation. There are so many 'lemons' floating around in the private used car market....

jomoloney

throw a can of http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_11101_catalogId_15551_productId_203587_langId_-1_categoryId_212351

into it and drive on

MidlandsM

jomoloney wrote: »

throw a can of http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_11101_catalogId_15551_productId_203587_langId_-1_categoryId_212351

into it and drive on

waste of time

paddyc310

Make sure you keep oil in it or you will end with nothing ,,there must be a lot of smoke..try some of the engine cleaning additives,any friend mac antic to take a look for you have it to long now that he would take it back,,good luck jacubo

jacubo

My current estimate is it burns about 1l of oil per 200 km. Going to continue with daily oil checks and will see if this estimate is correct. If it is I will probably be looking at fixing the engine as running cost would be pretty high.

Also I noticed there is this ugly smell sometimes when driving. I think this is oil.

shaaane wrote: »

Keep an eye on the oil level and it should give you years of trouble free motoring. I remember buying my corolla back in 07. I had researched the vvti engine and found out about the oil burning beforehand and the dealer even told me to keep an eye on it as it drinks oil. That didn't stop me. Sign of a good, honest dealer IMO. Keep a 5l drum of oil in the boot. Top it up every 10 days. The only bit of engine trouble I had in 4 years with that corolla was a failed coil.

jacubo

My wife took car to the mechanic and he told her oil was almost gone. We did not check oil level first time (when this issue happened) since we did not know there was issue with oil being burnt.

Yep, I am going to continue daily oil checks. And after a while I should failry accurate estimate how much oil it needs. My current estimate is 1l per 200 km.

I went to better mechanic (than the one who replaced oil) and he told me oil is leaking from three places, but the leakages are not significant. There is no oily patch where I park. Most of oil is being burnt and it produces white smoke when pressing accelerating pedal harder.

I took someone with me when buying this car. He did not find anything seriously wrong with this car. Sounds like I took wrong person :-)

HungryHaggis wrote: »

When you say 'the oil was gone', do you mean that when you checked the dipstick there was no oil on it? That doesn't mean there is no oil at all in the engine (it would die very quickly and maybe quite spectacularly in that case), it just means that you have less than the official minimum level of oil (which is not good, but is not the same as no oil at all)

Sounds to me like you need to get in the habit of regularly checking your your oil level (maybe every couple of days, or every one hundred miles or so), until you find out exactly how much oil it's losing, and also if it is starting to lose it faster, or is fairly constant. (Top to bottom of the dipstick is probably half a liter to maybe as much as a liter, depending on the size and design of the engine).

You also want to be keeping an eye out as to where this oil is going. You don't have to be a mechanical genius to do this. Is there oil leeking from somewhere around the engine. Is there an oily patch where you park it at night. Does it smoke when you accelerate hard, or on the over run when you take your foot off the throttle.

You need to work out more precisely how much oil you are losing, and how you are using it before you know how bad it is. As others have said, it may be acceptable oil loss that you just get used to topping up at the same time as petrol. It may just be an oil leek that needs an easy and cheap to fit new gasket, or it may be something more expensive. Either way though, it's not the last owners problem, it's yours. After all, it's possible (but unlikely), that it broke just after you bought it.

If you don't know about cars, always take someone who does to check out a car you are buying, and if it's more than a cheap banger, pay for an expert from the AA or where ever to do a check/evaluation. There are so many 'lemons' floating around in the private used car market....

jacubo

Has anyone actually used it? Is there any chance oil consumption will drop?

jomoloney wrote: »

throw a can of http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_11101_catalogId_15551_productId_203587_langId_-1_categoryId_212351

into it and drive on

jacubo

What kind of cleaning additives do you recommend? I do not know too much about cars but learning due to this situation :-)

paddyc310 wrote: »

Make sure you keep oil in it or you will end with nothing ,,there must be a lot of smoke..try some of the engine cleaning additives,any friend mac antic to take a look for you have it to long now that he would take it back,,good luck jacubo

Henry Ford III

jacubo wrote: »

Has anyone actually used it? Is there any chance oil consumption will drop?

I wouldn't bother.

OREGATO

What grade of oil are you putting into it and is it the right viscosity for the engine (5w 40, 10w 40 etc)

I would say it might be worthwhile to flush the oil and then put the recommended grade of oil into it - information should be available from the owners manual/internet/Toyota garage.

Whenever I've purchased a second hand car, regardless of what the seller tells me, I change the oil/filters/plugs etc, just for peace of mind.

PS, as above, I wouldn't bother with any of the additives.

jacubo

I got advice to try mineral oil and heard it should be burning in smaller quantities. I have bought 15W40 (mineral) which is one of oils recommended in manual. But have not replaced it yet. Will do this probably this week.

OREGATO wrote: »

What grade of oil are you putting into it and is it the right viscosity for the engine (5w 40, 10w 40 etc)

I would say it might be worthwhile to flush the oil and then put the recommended grade of oil into it - information should be available from the owners manual/internet/Toyota garage.

Whenever I've purchased a second hand car, regardless of what the seller tells me, I change the oil/filters/plugs etc, just for peace of mind.

PS, as above, I wouldn't bother with any of the additives.

djimi

If its going through a litre of oil every 200km then its unlikely that someone as straightforward as changing the grade of oil is going to sort the problem (unless you are running something ridiculous in there at the moment).

jacubo

That's what I think too. But reasoning is also that currently I have mixture of oils there. And this is definitely not recommended. So I think replacement of whole oil makes sense and will also see if quantity of oil being burnt drops after this.

OREGATO wrote: »

What grade of oil are you putting into it and is it the right viscosity for the engine (5w 40, 10w 40 etc)

I would say it might be worthwhile to flush the oil and then put the recommended grade of oil into it - information should be available from the owners manual/internet/Toyota garage.

Whenever I've purchased a second hand car, regardless of what the seller tells me, I change the oil/filters/plugs etc, just for peace of mind.

PS, as above, I wouldn't bother with any of the additives.

djimi wrote: »

If its going through a litre of oil every 200km then its unlikely that someone as straightforward as changing the grade of oil is going to sort the problem (unless you are running something ridiculous in there at the moment).

joujoujou

1l of oil in 200km is not normal in early VVTi. It's actually 5x more than normal.

More than likely oil leaks through piston rings or valve seals.

Repair would probably cost you more than 2nd hand engine.

If you'll be lucky enough to get significantly younger engine, it will burn less oil for sure.

Swapping old 3ZZ-FE to young 3ZZ-FE (even from a different model) is a pretty straightforward job, if any sensor's electrical plug won't fit, just keep your old one.

jacubo

I do not think it is leaking significant amounts since there is no single trace of oil where I park. Also mechanic said the same - it is leaking but small quantities.

This is exactly the dillema I'm facing now:
- replace for 2nd hand engine which is going to cost roughly between 50-60% of cost of repairing current engine
- fix current engine

joujoujou wrote: »

1l of oil in 200km is not normal in early VVTi. It's actually 5x more than normal.

More than likely oil leaks through piston rings or valve seals.

Repair would probably cost you more than 2nd hand engine.

If you'll be lucky enough to get significantly younger engine, it will burn less oil for sure.

Swapping old 3ZZ-FE to young 3ZZ-FE (even from a different model) is a pretty straightforward job, if any sensor's electrical plug won't fit, just keep your old one.

djimi

If you are sure about the cost of repair vs replace then Id be inclined to repair. You stick a second hand engine in and there is no guarantee that it wont have its own issues.

joujoujou

jacubo wrote: »

I do not think it is leaking significant amounts since there is no single trace of oil where I park. Also mechanic said the same - it is leaking but small quantities.

[...]

I do think it significantly leaks. To combustion chamber. :P

jacubo

I got an estimate from the mechanic. Chances are repair may cost bit more since he may find more issues than he suspected but I do not think it is going to be much more.

And you're right that replacing an engine is gamble. In theory I can replace it twice for cost of repairs, but still there is no guarantee this is going to work..

djimi wrote: »

If you are sure about the cost of repair vs replace then Id be inclined to repair. You stick a second hand engine in and there is no guarantee that it wont have its own issues.

BostonB

I'd assume a replacement engine would have a warranty. I wouldn't get one without.

jacubo

Well. If i wanted to buy new one there would be a warranty. But with used ones it is hit or miss.

BostonB wrote: »

I'd assume a replacement engine would have a warranty. I wouldn't get one without.

Chris_Heilong

billy2012 wrote: »

Must be a HONDA!!!!

Think you got that mixed up with another Japanese brand.

BostonB

jacubo wrote: »

Well. If i wanted to buy new one there would be a warranty. But with used ones it is hit or miss.

Well don't buy a used one without a warranty.

BostonB

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Think you got that mixed up with another Japanese brand.

Like Irony?

jacubo

Is it possible to get warranty on used one?

BostonB wrote: »

Well don't buy a used one without a warranty.

Wheelnut

You say you've bought some 15w40 oil? That's the way to go. 15w40 is the heaviest (?) multigrade in use today and it's your best chance if the thickness of your oil is a factor. Furthermore, it's most likely that any 15w40 you buy will be a mineral oil so it will be economic to buy large quantities.

Do NOT heed the advice to flush the engine. Flushing will remove any carbon build-up that may be helping to seal the rings and will make things worse.

IIRC the oil consumption problem in the VVTi was due to the piston rings. Therefore a "repair" would involve a complete strip-down of the engine, new rings and possibly a re-bore or honing of the cylinders. This is major and expensive work so it might be cheaper to buy a second-hand engine. However the oil consumption problem is widespread with this engine, so you may be no better-off with a second-hand engine.

My conclusion is that you should do an oil and filter change, and fill with 15w40, then try that for a month or two.

jacubo

Yep. I bought 15W40 mineral oil which is recommended in Toyota's manual. I heard it may help a bit.

The mechanic also mentioned replacement of rings and possibly few more parts. And yes used engine is much cheaper (about 50%). But as you said I am not sure what are the chances of buying decent engine.

I am going to replace the oil with 15W40 indeed. But should I also replace oil filter as well? It was replaced month ago after we experienced this problem for the first time.

Wheelnut wrote: »

You say you've bought some 15w40 oil? That's the way to go. 15w40 is the heaviest (?) multigrade in use today and it's your best chance if the thickness of your oil is a factor. Furthermore, it's most likely that any 15w40 you buy will be a mineral oil so it will be economic to buy large quantities.

Do NOT heed the advice to flush the engine. Flushing will remove any carbon build-up that may be helping to seal the rings and will make things worse.

IIRC the oil consumption problem in the VVTi was due to the piston rings. Therefore a "repair" would involve a complete strip-down of the engine, new rings and possibly a re-bore or honing of the cylinders. This is major and expensive work so it might be cheaper to buy a second-hand engine. However the oil consumption problem is widespread with this engine, so you may be no better-off with a second-hand engine.

My conclusion is that you should do an oil and filter change, and fill with 15w40, then try that for a month or two.