Tenant took furniture

kristian12

My other half has been renting out a furnished house that was left them to the same tenants for the last 10yrs. When the tenants moved in an inventary was drawn up along with a 12month contract however that contract has never been renewed. The tenancy is registered with the PRTB. Now the tenant moved out over the bank holiday weekend and taken all the furniture and electricals.

I'd consider this theft but other half is saying it'd be hard to prove it wasn't their stuff in the first place after all this time. Any opinions on our next move?

MarkR

Contact the former tenant first I would presume. Check www.threshold.ie. Seems to be tenant centred, but maybe they can help.

gaius c

Did you contact the tenant?

Is the furniture listed on the inventory? If it is, sounds like a fairly slam dunk case to me.

Dispute resolution with PRTB. Start the process now. http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes

kristian12

Thanks i'll certainly be encouraging the OH to follow it up, We don't have a forwarding address for the tenant. Do you reckon its worth involving the Gards? or isn't there anything they can do?

the_syco

I'd call the Gardai, as this is theft.

Victor

After 10 years, one could expect even new furniture to have suffered some damage or even breakages.

However, in the face of it, this is somewhere between depriving the landlord of their property (a theft offence) and actual theft.

foggy_lad

Most of the furniture and electrical items would be due for renewal during a ten year tenancy so it is very possible that the tenant bought much of the furniture and electrical items themselves unless they went to the LL and asked for broken/worn out items to be replaced.

Washing machines are not expected to last beyond 4-5 years with normal use and the same for most other electrical items, a mattress might last 4 years with the bed lasting 4-7 years, couch might be expected to last 3-5 years with light/normal use.

kristian12

The only thing we replaced during the tenancy was the washing machine last year.

To be honest if the tenant had asked the OH would probably have said yes anyway as it would have to have been replaced before anyone else moved in its just the taking it that has got to us.

whippet

foggy_lad wrote: »

Most of the furniture and electrical items would be due for renewal during a ten year tenancy so it is very possible that the tenant bought much of the furniture and electrical items themselves unless they went to the LL and asked for broken/worn out items to be replaced.

Washing machines are not expected to last beyond 4-5 years with normal use and the same for most other electrical items, a mattress might last 4 years with the bed lasting 4-7 years, couch might be expected to last 3-5 years with light/normal use.

A lot of expectations there Foggy Lad ..... a cheap-o Cost Plus Sofa's couch would do well to get 3 years but from a decent furniture supplier a couch would and could last well over ten years.

I am a landlord and some of the electrical goods and furniture i'd be expecting to last at least 10 years. There is an american fridge freezer which cost about €1200, a couch and armchair which cost over €2500, a dishwasher that was over €600 ... etc .... if my tenants suggest that 3 years is the life span I will get telling them where to go. If they want newer models and more uptodate furniture they are more than welcome to buy them and pay to have mine shipped to a location of my choice.

You can't put a definitive time scale on the expect useful life of a white good or piece of furniture ...

djimi

foggy_lad wrote: »

Most of the furniture and electrical items would be due for renewal during a ten year tenancy so it is very possible that the tenant bought much of the furniture and electrical items themselves unless they went to the LL and asked for broken/worn out items to be replaced.

Washing machines are not expected to last beyond 4-5 years with normal use and the same for most other electrical items, a mattress might last 4 years with the bed lasting 4-7 years, couch might be expected to last 3-5 years with light/normal use.

The landlord is entitled to find all items which are on the inventory still in the property when the tenant leaves, unless they have either been replaced previous (with the landlords knowledge and consent) or they have been broken and the landlord notified.

In this case, where there is an inventory, the landlord is well within their rights to persue the tenant for every single item that is missing. By the sounds of it, the tenants have commited theft on a fairly large scale.

freyners

foggy_lad wrote:

couch might be expected to last 3-5 years with light/normal use.

Surely your joking on this one, a decent couch can last far longer than that if you take proper care of it?

I understand it if you mean in situations where the LL buys flimsy cheap stuff but you cannot expect a LL to replacing couches every 3/4 years if they buy in quality stuff

djimi

freyners wrote: »

Surely your joking on this one, a decent couch can last far longer than that if you take proper care of it?

I understand it if you mean in situations where the LL buys flimsy cheap stuff but you cannot expect a LL to replacing couches every 3/4 years if they buy in quality stuff

Im fairly sure my parents have owned three couches in my lifetime (30 years), maybe four at the most.. A couch lasting less than 5 years (assuming it was the absolute cheapest of the cheap to start with) has been seriously abused.

kristian12

Will the Gard do anything do you reckon? Is an inventary 10yrs old still viable?

Dymo

kristian12 wrote: »

12month contract however that contract has never been renewed.

It doesn't have to be renewed as what you would have had is a Periodic lease (commonly called a 'month by month' lease) when their fixed-term lease ends. Normally, when a lease becomes periodic, the tenant does not sign a new lease, but must still follow the rules set out in the original agreement. A tenant on a periodic lease does not have to sign a new fixed-term lease, although if they do not they risk the security of their tenancy.

Marcusm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Most of the furniture and electrical items would be due for renewal during a ten year tenancy so it is very possible that the tenant bought much of the furniture and electrical items themselves unless they went to the LL and asked for broken/worn out items to be replaced.

Washing machines are not expected to last beyond 4-5 years with normal use and the same for most other electrical items, a mattress might last 4 years with the bed lasting 4-7 years, couch might be expected to last 3-5 years with light/normal use.

The value, quality or standing of the items is irelevant as there is no significant monetary boundary on theft offences. If the house has been completely emptied, it is prima facie established that property has been misappropriated.

mgbgt1978

TBH the guards probably won't do much. But you will often be asked for a Pulse number (make sure you ask the Guard for this) by various bodies such as insurer's, PRTB, etc.
In other words, if you don't report this to the Guards then you will find that other agencies will be unable to assist.

StillWaters

foggy_lad wrote: »

Most of the furniture and electrical items would be due for renewal during a ten year tenancy so it is very possible that the tenant bought much of the furniture and electrical items themselves unless they went to the LL and asked for broken/worn out items to be replaced.

Washing machines are not expected to last beyond 4-5 years with normal use and the same for most other electrical items, a mattress might last 4 years with the bed lasting 4-7 years, couch might be expected to last 3-5 years with light/normal use.

You are surely joking!

L1011

Contact the tenant, then the Guards. I don't see the purpose of engaging the PRTB in what is a theft case.

Victor

foggy_lad wrote: »

Most of the furniture and electrical items would be due for renewal during a ten year tenancy so it is very possible that the tenant bought much of the furniture and electrical items themselves unless they went to the LL and asked for broken/worn out items to be replaced.

Washing machines are not expected to last beyond 4-5 years with normal use and the same for most other electrical items, a mattress might last 4 years with the bed lasting 4-7 years, couch might be expected to last 3-5 years with light/normal use.

I'm sure my parents still have some of the furniture they got when they got married 52 years ago.

In my place, in 10 years, the only thing that has broken is one basic chair (already about 10 years old when I moved in) and my own toaster gave up the ghost.

Sure, some of the stuff is quite dated, but most of it is perfectly usable.

foggy_lad

djimi wrote: »

Im fairly sure my parents have owned three couches in my lifetime (30 years), maybe four at the most.. A couch lasting less than 5 years (assuming it was the absolute cheapest of the cheap to start with) has been seriously abused.

Victor wrote: »

I'm sure my parents still have some of the furniture they got when they got married 52 years ago.

In my place, in 10 years, the only thing that has broken is one basic chair (already about 10 years old when I moved in) and my own toaster gave up the ghost.

Sure, some of the stuff is quite dated, but most of it is perfectly usable.

This is all furniture in a family home situation but as we all know many tenants will not treat other people's property anywhere as well as they will treat their own so the lifetime expectation of white goods and furniture in any rented property must be lowered. Many tenants will have young children who break things and jump all over furniture.


(The property beside me has been rented three times in the last 18 months and the first time it was vacated most of the furniture had to be thrown out and the flooring ripped out because the tenant was keeping the rubbish in the house to avoid paying refuse charges, she had been keeping it outside the back door until I phoned the litter warden two years ago in May when I woke to the stench of about 40 black bags rotting in the morning sun. The next tenants were not much better as the place was raided by the Garda and most of the furniture was again beyond use and had to be thrown out and the place repainted. This LL seems to use a lot of cheaper 2nd hand furniture for her tenants.)


http://www.threshold.ie/download/pdf/minimum_standards_feb_2013.pdf

foggy_lad

I agree that because there is an inventory that the tenant should have left items in the property to match what was on the inventory but after ten years most of these items should have been replaced by the landlord anyway and should not be used for a new tenant as they have been well used for at least ten years.

As items broke the tenant should have got the landlord to replace them and that would have sorted that out but at the end of the ten years this has probably worked out a lot less costly for the landlord in this case.

djimi

foggy_lad wrote: »

I agree that because there is an inventory that the tenant should have left items in the property to match what was on the inventory but after ten years most of these items should have been replaced by the landlord anyway and should not be used for a new tenant as they have been well used for at least ten years.

As items broke the tenant should have got the landlord to replace them and that would have sorted that out but at the end of the ten years this has probably worked out a lot less costly for the landlord in this case.

Thats not the point; the fact is the landlord has an inventory of items that they are entitled to expect to find in the property, be it the original item or the one that it was replaced by. If the tenant removed them for any reason then they are obliged to notify the landland, and at the very least bring them back when they move out.

handlemaster

kristian12 wrote: »

The only thing we replaced during the tenancy was the washing machine last year.

To be honest if the tenant had asked the OH would probably have said yes anyway as it would have to have been replaced before anyone else moved in its just the taking it that has got to us.

sounds like he did you a favour so. stop crying move on...

ted1

File a report and claim off your insurance

the_syco

There's quite a big difference between replacing the stuff over 10 years and letting the landlord know in advance, and taking everything there to use in their new house.

OP; you'd best have someone look carefully at what was taken, in case there is anything that could cause damage to the property, or harm to anyone (loose electrical wiring, and/or water pipes not feeding anything.

gaius c

foggy_lad wrote: »

Most of the furniture and electrical items would be due for renewal during a ten year tenancy so it is very possible that the tenant bought much of the furniture and electrical items themselves unless they went to the LL and asked for broken/worn out items to be replaced.

Washing machines are not expected to last beyond 4-5 years with normal use and the same for most other electrical items, a mattress might last 4 years with the bed lasting 4-7 years, couch might be expected to last 3-5 years with light/normal use.

Fine but then the onus is on the tenant to inform the landlord that such and such a piece of furniture is now broken or worn out.

worded

handlemaster wrote: »

sounds like he did you a favour so. stop crying move on...

Exactly what I think. The tenants replaced the crap that was there with their own stuff and removed it on exit.
They paid the rent for 10 good years and saved you getting a skip at the end of it.

What's gone was not fit for purpose by the end of 10 years.

10 good years. Hopefully your next tenants will make you happier when they go

ck83

worded wrote: »

Exactly what I think. The tenants replaced the crap that was there with their own stuff and removed it on exit.
They paid the rent for 10 good years and saved you getting a skip at the end of it.

What's gone was not fit for purpose by the end of 10 years.

10 good years. Hopefully your next tenants will make you happier when they go

If it wasn't fit for purpose, then why would they have taken it?

worded

ck83 wrote: »

If it wasn't fit for purpose, then why would they have taken it?

They didn't take it, they probably dumped it and replaced everything to their own taste over the 10 years instead and then removed what was theirs on exit.

Most furnished properties are a joke in Ireland. Landlords refuse to store their substandard rubbish so the tenants have no choice but to dump it. After 10 years do you really expect your sticks back?

They paid half your mortgage and you want you 10 year old sticks back? Listen to yourself.

D3PO

its an interesting topic.

The moral aspect of which is clear they should not have removed anything. I assume the tenant didn't receive their deposit back ?

Then theirs the practical / common sense side of this. Same furniture for ten years would have been fully written off as capital depreciation so a landlord providing tax returns would have this furniture listed as valueless.

They shouldn't have taken the stuff but if you replaced nothing over ten years its fair to assume that some / much of the items had been replaced by what most of us must assume were very good tenants and this is why they took the items in question.

now if that's the case they went about things wrong they should obviously have contacted the LL to replace / repair said things, but as it would appear they were good hassle free tenants they decided to sort themselves at their expense.

I'm on the fence here. You must have a phone number for them ? First step ring them and find out what the story is.

Perhaps the OP could advise what items were taken so people can form a better opinion

ck83

I find it hard to believe that in the whole ten years, the landlord wasn't in the house once, to notice a gradual/sudden replacement of all the furniture and electrical items. If I read the op correctly, it's all the furniture and electrical items that's missing. I also find it hard to believe that any tenant would replace everything in a house, and not have the decency to either stick at least some of the old stuff in a shed/attic and later put it back where it belonged, or even inform the owner of their intention and give them the option to keep it. Sounds like the landlord in question was never consulted about any of it- which is what makes me think it was more like theft. Why do it all without asking/telling, if there's nothing wrong with it?

I too would be interested to know what exactly was taken... Did it include the replacement washing machine I wonder?

djimi

handlemaster wrote: »

sounds like he did you a favour so. stop crying move on...

worded wrote: »

Exactly what I think. The tenants replaced the crap that was there with their own stuff and removed it on exit.
They paid the rent for 10 good years and saved you getting a skip at the end of it.

What's gone was not fit for purpose by the end of 10 years.

10 good years. Hopefully your next tenants will make you happier when they go

The furniture was not the tenants to remove/dump. Paint it any way you like; the bottom line is that the furniture, regardless of how old or potentially worn, was still the landlords property and they were entitled to find it all present and accounted for.

I cannot believe that people are actually defending the actions of these people.

Zulu

worded wrote: »

They didn't take it, they probably dumped it and replaced everything to their own taste over the 10 years instead and then removed what was theirs on exit.

As a tenant, you are not entitled to "dump" your landlords belongings.

Most furnished properties are a joke in Ireland. Landlords refuse to store their substandard rubbish so the tenants have no choice but to dump it. After 10 years do you really expect your sticks back?

Utter tripe & rubbish. Renting is paying for a service. If you pay for yellow pack, budget, thrift you can expect the crap you pay for. There's a range of products available, with a range of costs to suit the market.

They paid half your mortgage and you want you 10 year old sticks back? Listen to yourself.

:rolleyes: I take it you are trolling. They paid for a service, simple as. Listen to yourself. :rolleyes:

Victor

worded wrote: »

They didn't take it, they probably dumped it and replaced everything to their own taste over the 10 years instead and then removed what was theirs on exit.

Most furnished properties are a joke in Ireland. Landlords refuse to store their substandard rubbish so the tenants have no choice but to dump it. After 10 years do you really expect your sticks back?

They paid half your mortgage and you want you 10 year old sticks back? Listen to yourself.

Let's stick to the topic at hand.

Moderator

handlemaster

djimi wrote: »

The furniture was not the tenants to remove/dump. Paint it any way you like; the bottom line is that the furniture, regardless of how old or potentially worn, was still the landlords property and they were entitled to find it all present and accounted for.

I cannot believe that people are actually defending the actions of these people.

Yes they shouldnt have taken it. The OP said they would have had to change it anyhow. Its like leaving some rubbish outside your house and someone takes it . Yes they didnt ask but the up side is it wont cost you anything to get rid of it. Why stress over it !!

djimi

handlemaster wrote: »

Yes they shouldnt have taken it. The OP said they would have had to change it anyhow. Its like leaving some rubbish outside your house and someone takes it . Yes they didnt ask but the up side is it wont cost you anything to get rid of it. Why stress over it !!

Because its theft. The landlord is not given a chance to assess what needs to be replaced and what doesnt. People seem to be making out like the tenants did the landlord a favour; they most certainly did not.

handlemaster

djimi wrote: »

Because its theft. The landlord is not given a chance to assess what needs to be replaced and what doesnt. People seem to be making out like the tenants did the landlord a favour; they most certainly did not.

I guess it can be argued either way. It depends on your view in life. The OP has said as much that the goods need to be changed. With that in mind whats the point in chasing.

djimi

handlemaster wrote: »

I guess it can be argued either way. It depends on your view in life. The OP has said as much that the goods need to be changed. With that in mind whats the point in chasing.

Well if someone walked into your house off the street and cleared away all of your ten year old furniture that may or may not have needed to be changed, would you just say "ah well they did me a favour taking it away for me", or would you view it as the theft that it is and persue them for it?

It may be about the principal as much as anything, but as I said the landlord has not been given a chance to assess what needs replacing and what doesnt, and is now in a position where they must replace everything regardless.

handlemaster

djimi wrote: »

Well if someone walked into your house off the street and cleared away all of your ten year old furniture that may or may not have needed to be changed, would you just say "ah well they did me a favour taking it away for me", or would you view it as the theft that it is and persue them for it?

It may be about the principal as much as anything, but as I said the landlord has not been given a chance to assess what needs replacing and what doesnt, and is now in a position where they must replace everything regardless.

as i say it depends on your life view point. Have house rented after 10 years if I had in mind to change everthing.. good ridence to it . Each to their own

worded

Id say SVP or any charity would refuse to accept the furniture after 10 years.

But not content with 10 years rent .... Oh it's the principle .....

Chase them to their graves for this !

Zulu

handlemaster wrote: »

I guess it can be argued either way.

Anything can be argued each way, however, not everything should be. In this case they appear to have stolen the landlords property, which, is not ok.

It depends on your view in life. The OP has said as much that the goods need to be changed. With that in mind what's the point in chasing.

Say you've a 10 year old car that you are thinking of replacing. Does that make it acceptable for me to "take it off your hands" without first asking? No. Of course it doesn't.

The Cool

I agree with djimi. Sure, when you're renting a place for 10 years there are bound to be some replacements etc, but if you're replacing it with stuff you are going to take with you when you leave, then you have no right to be throwing out the other stuff. I've rented a good few homes myself in various conditions but even in the most shoddily-furnished house I would never have the neck to just throw away something broken that belonged to the landlord, because it's not my property.
Renting a house for 10 years does not give you privilege over its contents, at the end of the day it's someone else's property and what the tenants have done here is theft. Get onto the PRTB or somesuch OP, best of luck with it.

djimi

handlemaster wrote: »

as i say it depends on your life view point. Have house rented after 10 years if I had in mind to change everthing.. good ridence to it . Each to their own

Fair enough. Each to their own I guess. Personally Id like to have the chance to look over my property to see what needs replacing before I have to completely re-kit out a house, but maybe thats just me.

djimi

worded wrote: »

Id say SVP or any charity would refuse to accept the furniture after 10 years.

But not content with 10 years rent .... Oh it's the principle .....

Chase them to their graves for this !

Paying rent does not entitle you to remove any of the landlords belongings from the property.

pwurple

handlemaster wrote: »

as i say it depends on your life view point. Have house rented after 10 years if I had in mind to change everthing.. good ridence to it . Each to their own

It does indeed. Ah sure... let them away with it. That's so irish it's funny.

I replace mattresses every tenacy, but I have good quality solid timber furniture in there, I wouldn't expect to replace that. And while I have replaced white goods during tenacies when things break, I never replace them as a matter of course between tenancies if they are working. That's utter madness. Even if they needed replacing due to looking a bit shabby, you can sell them if they work.

I don't quite understand how the tenants actually left with the furniture and goods... I always meet tenants when a lease is ending to discuss the deposit, forwarding address, utility sign over, any issues I need to be aware of for my inspection. I take their keys while doing a brief visual check, escort them out and change the alarm code.

kristian12

I know a lot is being said about them doing the OH a favour but surely it should have been OH decision on what needed replacing?? Yes i agree 10yr old beds would need replacing but the leather (real) sofas we saw just a month ago was perfectly usable without tears or much wear and tear. They took the beds, fridge freezer, washing machine and sofas.

They would have had their deposit back no problem this week as apart from needing painting the house was fine. They have been pretty decent tenants and i will admit they took care of the property painting the outside and suchlike.

enigmatical

Maybe contact the tenant first to ensure there hasn't been some kind of horrendous mix up.

I mean, it's possible they hired movers who moved everything out or that there was some kind of genuine confusion.

syklops

Zulu wrote: »

Utter tripe & rubbish. Renting is paying for a service. If you pay for yellow pack, budget, thrift you can expect the crap you pay for. There's a range of products available, with a range of costs to suit the market.
:

No there isn't. The rental market in Ireland is not that clear cut. The budget yellow pack properties as you put it are priced in the same margin as the quality places, and it is difficult to tell which is which in your ten minute viewing. It is extremely rare for a landlord to put quality furniture into a rental property. My current place does and its in a minority(I also wish I didn't have to move out in a few weeks time).

In the near 15 years that I have been renting, it has never been a renters market. Its not simply a case of paying for quality. What often happens is the quality places get taken within hours of their ads going up,

Zulu

kristian12 wrote: »

They would have had their deposit back no problem this week as apart from needing painting the house was fine. They have been pretty decent tenants and i will admit they took care of the property painting the outside and suchlike.

I don't know if I'd refer to tenants as "pretty decent" if they nicked all my furniture and whitegoods.

makeorbrake

worded wrote: »

Id say SVP or any charity would refuse to accept the furniture after 10 years.

But not content with 10 years rent ....

Irish begrudgery seeping through in your posts. "Not content with 10 years rent" - should the landlord have given the use of the property away for free? Last I checked, Ireland was capitalist - not communist.

worded wrote: »

But not content with 10 years rent .... Oh it's the principle .....
Chase them to their graves for this !

Said by you sarcastically - but damn right - chase them up. Of course, it depends on how you were dragged up raised but I can't see how anyone could interpret this as anything other than theft.

Zulu

syklops wrote: »

No there isn't.

Yes, there is. As both a tenant & a landlord I know this to be true.
What you are describing is the issue we all have with quality cheap rental properties, which, I grant you are very hard to get. But if you have the money, there's plenty of quality out there.

To say they are priced in the same market is preposterous.

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