Dublin Passport Control Possible Discrimination

aldeirm2

I went to Madrid on holidays with the lads for the bank holiday weekend, and on my return to Ireland I waited in the EU Passports queue with my Irish passport (it was a long enough queue) and as usual i saw every single person in front of me just flash the passport and run through, when it was my turn I showed the officer my Irish passport, he then proceeded to grab it off me, inspect it very thoroughly and then ask me questions such as:

Where are you coming from?
Do you live here?
Do you have a job here?

Its important to note that I am slightly dark skinned, I have a Arabic name and I'm not originally from Ireland but have lived here for practically all my life.

I answered his questions and then he let me through, now I have no issues with passport control asking people questions including my self for the safety of Ireland, because Ireland's safety means my safety.

But to be honest I don't see how questions such as "do you have a job here?" or "do you live here?" will determine weather I am going to be allowed in to my home country or why out of bout 30 people that i saw go through i was the only one being asked any questions ( I am afraid to say I was the only none Caucasian in the queue.)

I think this was just some old school racism and a way to tell me "just because you have an Irish passport, don't mean you will be treated like one" and to be honest it worked, because it made me feel like a second class citizen.

I'm wondering if anyone has ever been questioned going in to Dublin on their Irish or EU passports?

devnull

I've seen this happen in Cork as well with people who held valid EU passports being asked to all such questions under the sun, despite the fact as an EU national it's really none of their business since you are allowed in the country no matter what.

Victor

Racism (on grounds of nationality) is the fundamental concept underlying passport control.

Everyone thinks they feel like a second class citizen at passport control. As least they don't feel you up like the customs and security types (I had four old pound coins in my back pocket going through the metal detector).

Often, questions like "What is the purpose of your travel?", "Where are you coming from?", "Do you live here?" and "Do you have a job here?" are not there as important questions - they are (a) stalling for time (b) analysing your behaviour / reactions (c) studying your confidence level. When I went to the UK recently, I was asked "Do you have any additional ID?" - once I flicked open my wallet, they were happy, without even checking if I actually had the additional ID - it was an observation and confidence checking exercise.

I would consider "Do you have a job here?" an inherently racist question in such a situation - as it is something that is irrelevant. The correct question would be "Where do you work?" or "Do you have a job?" (can be harsh questions during a recession).

murphaph

I've never had any such questions showing my Irish passport in Dublin. Sounds like you were singled out to me but I wasn't there.

devnull

I've never seen it happen to someone holding an Irish passport, but at Cork on the 2-3 occasions I've flew there, I've seen it be asked of people with other EU passports from the European mainland.

ted1

To be honest you were stopped as you don't look traditionally Irish, as such the person on the gate singled you out, the questions asked are to determine if your nervous etc and your answers rehearsed.

Very few people who look traditionally Irish would be stopped, you described yourself as having an Arabic complication and as such would not be indegnious to Ireland, and genreally few arabics would have Irish passports.

Unfortunatly, This is something you'll have to grin and bear. Hope you had a nice holiday.

coylemj

Consider yourselves lucky, time was back in the 1970s when the IRA were exploding bombs in GB and the Irish got serious aggro from the UK cops on border points, especially coming off a ferry. Any Paddy with a beard was guaranteed an aggressive 'welcome' by the cops in Heathrow and Holyhead which involved getting taken aside and being treated as a second-class citizen, even with the theory of free travel between the two countries.

Answering a few questions at passport control nowadays is a breeze in comparison, let's keep things in perspective.

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

Any Paddy with a beard was guaranteed an aggressive 'welcome' by the cops in Heathrow and Holyhead which involved getting taken aside and being treated as a second-class citizen, even with the theory of free travel between the two countries.

You do realise that most 'Paddies' aren't British citizens?

Con Logue

Victor wrote: »

You do realise that most 'Paddies' aren't British citizens?

Well I am a British citizen as well as Irish (born there of Irish parents) but certainly got the questions even though I didn't (and still don't) fit the profile. Bad times for the Irish then caused by a small few.

Judgement Day

Perhaps I was just lucky but I frequently traveled between the UK and Ireland during the height of the troubles and never was treated with anything but courtesy. I didn't have a beard though and you never can tell what might be hidden there.

There was an Old Man with a beard,
Who said, "It is just as I feared!
Two Owls and a Hen, four Larks and a Wren,
Have all built their nests in my beard.

Edward Lear

Con Logue

Judgement Day wrote: »

Perhaps I was just lucky but I frequently traveled between the UK and Ireland during the height of the troubles and never was treated with anything but courtesy. I didn't have a beard though and you never can tell what might be hidden there.

There was an Old Man with a beard,
Who said, "It is just as I feared!
Two Owls and a Hen, four Larks and a Wren,
Have all built their nests in my beard.

Edward Lear

The questions were courteous, as were the answers, so I never had any hassle. They still had to ask though.

beazee

aldeirm2 wrote: »

Where are you coming from?
Do you live here?
Do you have a job here?

Been there, done that, I've a Polish name and a Polish passport.

I don't see how questions such as "do you have a job here?" or "do you live here?" will determine weather I am going to be allowed in to my home country

This is to determine whether you're a social leech of non-Irish origin. Some do indeed have Irish passports. And it's fair as long as it's only three questions. In the end it's all about taxpayers' (yours) money.

But how they're going to tackle Irish social leeches living off in Canaries it beats me.

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

You do realise that most 'Paddies' aren't British citizens?

Actually the folk from Belfast getting off the ferry in Liverpool probably got similar treatment, despite them being UK citizens which I assume is what you mean when you refer to 'British' citizens. The cops in GB would have considered everyone from the island of Ireland as a 'Paddy'.

I saw the Dubliners being pulled over in Heathrow once, hence my statement that having a beard was a distinct handicap, I also knew a few people with beards and they said that the beard virtually guaranteed you a grilling on entering the UK back then.

corktina

they are just doing their job, some of them will be better at it than others.

murphaph

I think it's out of order asking Irish citizens whether or not they have a job. I accept such questions from foreign immigration services, but I wouldn't be at all happy being asked that by a guard in Dublin airport.

bk

I don't believe this is discrimination or racism, I think it is just social profiling.

Now I know some in the US get their PC knickers in a twist about social profiling and consider it racist, but in reality it is just common sense human intelligence police work that has been done by good police officers for hundreds of years.

Is it really that awful that they will quickly wave your typical looking burned red off a flight from Madrid "paddy" who also sounds Irish, but might take a few seconds longer with someone who looks a little different?

In reality it is just common sense policing, I honestly don't believe there is any racism meant. I'd expect to get an extra grilling being white when entering an Arab or African country as I'm obviously not local.

If this is what goes for racism these days, then things are much better then I thought they were!

BTW If you think this is grilling, you should try going through Isreals Tel Aviv Airport, now they grill you. They literally spend about 30 minutes talking to you as they go through everything in your luggage.

BBTW Coming off a flight from Poland with my Polish girlfriend I actually found it quiet nice that they not only left everyone though quickly, but actually said hello in Polish!

They aren't really bad guys, they are just trying to do their job.

Fred Swanson

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Carawaystick

bk wrote: »

I don't believe this is discrimination or racism,


BTW If you think this is grilling, you should try going through Isreals Tel Aviv Airport, now they grill you. They literally spend about 30 minutes talking to you as they go through everything in your luggage.

Are you a citizen of Israel? Do they get the same treatment as gentiles?

coylemj

Carawaystick wrote: »

Are you a citizen of Israel? Do they get the same treatment as gentiles?

A lot of Arab muslims and christians are citizens of Israel, the two categories you describe (gentile and citizen of Israel) are not incompatible.

Cookie_Monster

aldeirm2 wrote: »

Its important to note that I am slightly dark skinned, I have a Arabic name and I'm not originally from Ireland but have lived here for practically all my life.

Honestly, are you surprised you are stopped?
Unfortunitly arabic-looking and arabic-named people fit the profile they're supposed to question because of world events and attitudes. Rightly or wrongly you just have to deal with it.

ted1

Fred Swanson wrote: »

You wouldn't get that sort of questioning going to Poland or other EU state.

We are an island nation so the only real way to get here is by plane or boat from the uk which is a European country.

A lot of illegal immigrants come through the airport. Poland has plenty of road access and as such the airports of plains or other EU states don't get immigrants coming through the airport

meeeeh

Irish passports are poplar for forgeries because a lot of countries don't demand visas for irish passport holders. I'm Slovenian and it's similar with slovenian passports. You don't look like a stereotypical Irishman so there is a bigger chance you'll be asked some questions. I get a look in sometimes because my kids have irish passports and I don't. I don't think there is anything more to it.

purplepanda

Mossad often issue their own Irish passports.

Judgement Day

purplepanda wrote: »

Mossad often issue their own Irish passports.

Whereas most Arab states don't need to as Fianna Fail gave away so many to them for dubious investments in Ireland.

coolhandluke

When alan shatter is giving out irish citizenship to all and sundry , this is bound to happen......i believe many of them couldn't even satisfy the passport office of their documentation.

IvySlayer

Him asking about a job is weird, I wonder what would happen if you told him it was none of his business?

Fred Swanson

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Victor

coolhandluke wrote: »

When alan shatter is giving out irish citizenship to all and sundry , this is bound to happen......i believe many of them couldn't even satisfy the passport office of their documentation.

Trolling not welcome.

Moderator

dowlingm

I remember flying Cork-Manchester when things were starting to calm down in the North, it was my first time in the UK in a few years and found myself on the far side of the Greater Manchester Police desk before panicking and thinking I was going to be called back - but it turned out it was just unmanned. Bit of a culture shock from getting an chat from Strathclyde Police on trips to Glasgow (went to uni there for a short time).

By contrast when I flew to Canada for the first time I couldn't figure out the immigration queues - which were the "Canadian" lines and which the "foreigner"? Turns out there was no such distinction, with CBSA being mostly concerned with dutiable goods...

Then there's the Cuban system where everyone must go in to the booth on their own (i.e. spouses separately) and they go through your passport backwards and forwards. They don't stamp it though as they know it would kill their tourism trade if every tourist had to get a new passport before their next trip to the States to avoid potential grief!

OP: if you have concerns perhaps a polite letter to the head of the Dublin Airport GNIB detachment, cc'd to your local TD and the Minister for Justice would be in order. You might want to wait a few weeks though as the latter may have a change in personnel the way things are going.

Fred Swanson

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Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

OP: if you have concerns perhaps a polite letter to the head of the Airport Police detachment, cc'd to your local TD and the Minister for Justice would be in order. You might want to wait a few weeks though as the latter may have a change in personnel the way things are going.

Nothing to do with the Airport Police, who are merely concerned with safety and security of the airport.

Immigration is part of the GNIB - a Garda function http://www.garda.ie/controller.aspx?page=31

kravmaga

dowlingm wrote: »

OP: if you have concerns perhaps a polite letter to the head of the Airport Police detachment, cc'd to your local TD and the Minister for Justice would be in order. You might want to wait a few weeks though as the latter may have a change in personnel the way things are going.

Not sure when you were in Dublin Airport last as your profile location says Canada.

The Dept of Justice officals are manning the GNIB gates on a pilot project to release Garda onto frontline Policing duties. If it was indeed a uniformed/plain clothes AGS member he/she may ask questions.

Dublin Airport /Security do not man or have anything to do with Immigration controls.

aldeirm2

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Honestly, are you surprised you are stopped?
Unfortunately arabic-looking and arabic-named people fit the profile they're supposed to question because of world events and attitudes. Rightly or wrongly you just have to deal with it.

I was a little surprised I was stopped because no one else was, but that is ok as you mentioned, unfortunately there are a lot of stupid/crazy extremists out there giving us decent Muslims a bad name (bad being an understatement), my main concern were questions such as "do you have a job" I fail to see the correlation between holding a job and being a threat to national security.

aldeirm2

bk wrote: »

I don't believe this is discrimination or racism, I think it is just social profiling.

Now I know some in the US get their PC knickers in a twist about social profiling and consider it racist, but in reality it is just common sense human intelligence police work that has been done by good police officers for hundreds of years.

Is it really that awful that they will quickly wave your typical looking burned red off a flight from Madrid "paddy" who also sounds Irish, but might take a few seconds longer with someone who looks a little different?

In reality it is just common sense policing, I honestly don't believe there is any racism meant. I'd expect to get an extra grilling being white when entering an Arab or African country as I'm obviously not local.

If this is what goes for racism these days, then things are much better then I thought they were!

BTW If you think this is grilling, you should try going through Isreals Tel Aviv Airport, now they grill you. They literally spend about 30 minutes talking to you as they go through everything in your luggage.

BBTW Coming off a flight from Poland with my Polish girlfriend I actually found it quiet nice that they not only left everyone though quickly, but actually said hello in Polish!

They aren't really bad guys, they are just trying to do their job.

I didn't say it was a grilling, I said that I fail to see how questions such as "do you have a job" and "do you live here" will determine weather I am a threat to national security.

Being of Arab decent I expect some special attention unfortunately due to them idiots giving all of us a horrible name.

Also just to point out I have an Irish accent and I was not going in to tel aviv or any other foreign country, I was trying to get back in to my own country.

wexie

aldeirm2 wrote: »

... I said that I fail to see how questions such as "do you have a job" and "do you live here" will determine weather I am a threat to national security.

I think it's probably more so to gauge your interaction with them rather than the actual answers to the questions. They probably just wanted to see if you were nervous etc. So they have to ask you something to get you to talk and if they asked something like : "do you like biscuits ?" people might get so confused / freaked out that the response becomes hard to gauge.

While it would sure seem that going through an airport may well be more stressfull for you than it would be for most of us, to me this doesn't sound like a case of racism.

bk

aldeirm2 I think you missed the point of what I was saying.

I know they weren't grilling you, and the questions they asked weren't actually important.

The point of the questions wasn't the actual answers, it has more to do with seeing how you react:

- Do you look nervous when asked questions?
- Do you take too long or struggle with the answers?
- Are you too quick with the answers, thus seeming prepared?
- What is your body language like?

A good cop will be able to read your body language and the way you answer the questions and quickly decide if you deserve more attention or not?

The reality is because you don't look "typical" Irish he decided to take a closer look at you and asked some questions, but given that you have an Irish accent, he was probably quickly satisfied that you were fine and it is why he didn't spend even more time answering questions.

The questions also give the officer more time to check if your passport might be forged.

Again the whole point of this isn't to be racist, but to catch people who have forged documents and who are trying to enter the country illegally.

What is the alternative to this? Immigration control spend 10 minutes talking to everyone in detail to make sure they are EU citizens and thus we end up with 2 hour queues at emigration control? Or that they do the sensible thing and leave people who look obviously Irish through fast and spend a few seconds longer with people who don't fit the typical profile?

It is just common sense policing and not really racism.

US border control do the same, they spend about 5 minutes "chatting" to you while they finger print you and take your picture. They'll ask you are you going for business or pleasure? Where you will be staying? Who do you work for? etc.

Funny the last time I went to the US, I ended up having a long friendly chat with the US border control guy, he asked me did I work for tech company a or b?!! I said I worked for a, he was like yeah there are a lot travelling through from a and b today for a tech conference. Then he proceeded to ask me what programming language did I use? etc.

Now that was on the ball social profiling.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Oh yes you do. Been to Poland 6 times in the last year. Every time they take significantly longer to check my passport then my Polish Girlfriends national ID card. Mine gets thoroughly checked while see just gets a quick nod. You also have to go through an extra immigration control check when leaving Poland (unlike Ireland) and from strange reason they take even longer checking you passport there.

Again nothing racist about it, just that flights to and from Poland tend to be 95% Polish, so me being Irish is a little different and they spend longer checking it.

bk

To develop my point further. What they are trying to stop is people entering the country illegally with fake or altered documents.

The problem with this is that some fakes can be really good and it can take an expert a few minutes under a microscope to spot them.

Obviously it is impossible to spend minutes checking each passport in detail like this. So instead they use common sense:

Person A approaches security, they look Irish, don't look nervous, have an Irish accent, then you take a very quick look at the passport to make sure it isn't the back of a kellogs box.

Person B approaches security, they don't look Irish. So you spend 30 seconds longer asking one or two questions to see how they respond, do they look nervous and spend a bit longer examining the passport for any obvious signs of forgery.

In this case person b (you) had an Irish accent, and wasn't nervous in your answers so no problem go right ahead.

Person C approaches security, they don't look Irish or look nervous. You ask a few questions and they stumble or answer in a nervous manner. You probably ask them to step aside and take them for a more detailed interview. While been interviewed a specialist checks the passport in detail.

It is just common sense, not racism.

BTW they do this in Poland too, speak Polish fluently, well you probably are Polish and not sneaking in, don't speak Polish and they spend a bit longer looking at your passport. And this is true for many European countries with unique languages, I've found exactly the same when entering Norway, Lithuania, etc. Being able to speak the language allows them to quickly filter people. We don't have that in English speaking countries so much, so it tends more to accents and in Ireland how people look.

hfallada

At least they are enforcing some kind of border control now. Like how many undocumented get through Dublin airport with forged passports and the passport control dont seem to care

dowlingm

kravmaga wrote: »

Not sure when you were in Dublin Airport last as your profile location says Canada.

The Dept of Justice officals are manning the GNIB gates on a pilot project to release Garda onto frontline Policing duties. If it was indeed a uniformed/plain clothes AGS member he/she may ask questions.

Dublin Airport /Security do not man or have anything to do with Immigration controls.

I forgot it was GNIB not Airport Police - will correct my post above. Last time I was in DUB was last August and it was a uniformed officer at T1.

Victor

hfallada wrote: »

At least they are enforcing some kind of border control now. Like how many undocumented get through Dublin airport with forged passports and the passport control dont seem to care

Oh really?

n97 mini

OP, you kind of answered your own question. "Arab people, also known as Arabs (Arabic: عرب‎, ʿarab), are a panethnicity[15] primarily living in the Arab world, which is located in Western Asia and North Africa."

So Arabs would not be typical in Ireland.

If I lived in a primarily Arab country I would expect to be stopped regularly at Passport Control.

Strumms

For what it's worth I always find the Guards on the immigration desks at Dublin airport very pleasant... Usually it's a quick check of the passport and a "welcome home Sean" in my experience. The fact that the Guard in question briefly stopped and asked you about your work or living circumstances is hardly cause for accusations or racism or indeed the sensationalisim that seems to be infered over somone just doing their job. He is just doing his job.. Asking trigger questions to check you out... You were not be first and won't be the last, Nazi interrogation. It ain't.

I remember during the tail end of the troubles and it was a regular thing to have to deal with very passive aggressive police in the UK who would get very smart with you to try and get a rise out of you. The guys they had posted at Holyhead were assholes.. I was also stopped once at the old Waterloo Eurostar terminal,, taken to one side, had my passport taken only for it to be returned with an apology and that they had mistaken me for a killer on the run... I guess I must have one of those faces... ,!

Carawaystick

I'm surprised with the amount of posters saying treating an Irish citizen differently based on his/her race isn't discrimination or racism. It clearly is, by definition.

Whether it is right or wrong for gardaí to discriminate so, is a topic for discussion.

Mrs OBumble

I think Bk is right on the money.

But I would like someone to tell me what it means to look "typically Irish".

FWIW, I believe that every time I go into an airport with a flight booking or off a flight:

• They're expecting me based on bookings or checkins at the other end
• They're using CCTV + facial recognition to spot me as I walk in.
• This plus their risk profiling software has most of the say over whether I'm stopped: Provided nothing about my trip looks unusual, I won't be hassled at flight security, border control, drug checks, etc

Maybe I've just done too many Oz - NZ trips, where the above is definitely true. But I would expect it here too.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

We don't have that in English speaking countries so much, so it tends more to accents and in Ireland how people look.

And more to the point we're an island. Up until the late 90s we had virtually no immigration worth talking about.

bk

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But I would like someone to tell me what it means to look "typically Irish".

Fred Swanson

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bk

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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You are absolutely correct, you don't have to answer any questions, in which case the Garda will direct you to a private interview room while your passport is thoroughly checked and they are satisfied you match the passport.

In reality it is quicker to just answer the stupid questions and get on with your life.

coylemj

bk wrote: »

You forgot the white socks, shorts, Laois GAA shirt and black shoes.

Carawaystick

n97 mini wrote: »

And more to the point we're an island. Up until the late 90s we had virtually no immigration worth talking about.

You might have forgotten those britons evicting Irish over the years, especially in Ulster, Laois, etc

Fred Swanson

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