SPAD fad

El Alamein.

I don't see the big problem with this either. It is now in law and that is that. Sinn Fein and Republicans can moan and cry about it all they want. It got passed. A bit like the flag decision at Belfast City hall. Accept democracy.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Firstly, the goals of the legislation.
Secondly, what points?

You said anyone who would kill for their beliefs was a radical and an unsavoury type.
I asked if you applied this to those who killed for their beliefs in WW1 or WW2.

Crooked Jack

El Alamein. wrote: »

I don't see the big problem with this either. It is now in law and that is that. Sinn Fein and Republicans can moan and cry about it all they want. It got passed. A bit like the flag decision at Belfast City hall. Accept democracy.

Restricting the flying of the british flag over Belfast City Hall was a step towards equality (one that even came with concessions to the unionist feeling of superiority.) This bill is a step away from equality. It's a law targeted at a specific party and a specific combatant in the conflict with a further aim of creating a hierarchy of victims, something that will push the chance of reconciliation back another ten years.

El Alamein.

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Restricting the flying of the british flag over Belfast City Hall was a step towards equality (one that even came with concessions to the unionist feeling of superiority.) This bill is a step away from equality. It's a law targeted at a specific party and a specific combatant in the conflict with a further aim of creating a hierarchy of victims, something that will push the chance of reconciliation back another ten years.

This bill is equality. It stops criminals from being in special advisor positions at Stormont. This isn't a bill just for terrorists. You are wrong to say it is aimed at Sinn Fein.

To the point of hierarchy of victims argument. You really need to get away from this attempt to try and convince people that people who planted bombs are in some way on the same level with the people they blew to pieces.

What is disturbing is you try and actually play down what Lenny Murphy did to try and suit your disturbing logic and argument. It holds no weight for the majority of rational people.

The majority of people in Northern Ireland just will not have it that the guy who planted the bomb on the Shankill road is somehow a victim and on the same level as the people he blew apart.

The people who got murdered in these bombings didn't stand a chance. The argument of the bomb planters being victims is probably one of the most psychotic and disturbing arguments you will see which have no rationality behind them.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Evasion. If they voted for a party that supported the armed struggle and contains many who participated in same, they aren't going to be bothered by the appointment of advisors with the same history.

That's not true at all, there are people who vote for SF who would never vote for a paramilitary. Northern Ireland is a big place you can't say this or that doesn't exist.

Nodin wrote: »

The party supported the armed struggle.

Indeed they did but this law doesn't ban people who lended political support to paramilitaries. Only a paramilitaries themselves.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You said anyone who would kill for their beliefs was a radical and an unsavoury type.
I asked if you applied this to those who killed for their beliefs in WW1 or WW2.

One word, conscription.

Crooked Jack

El Alamein. wrote: »

This bill is equality. It stops criminals from being in special advisor positions at Stormont. This isn't a bill just for terrorists. You are wrong to say it is aimed at Sinn Fein.

You are naive to think it wasnt aimed at Sinn Fein. Unionism was always careful to incite and encourage loyalist murderers but the mainstream parties never brought them on board. Meanwhile state forces were rarely punished for their crimes and when they were they still conveniently qualify to be SPADs. The Brit that shot 12 year old Majella O'Hare in the back as she walked to Mass was acquitted. The Brit that shot 13 year old Kevin Heatley in the head as he sat on a wall out side his house was found guilty of unlawful killing and sentenced to three years (well under the five year limit of this bill) and then released a week later. This bill is aimed squarely at Sinn Fein and has nothing to do with victims or equality. No victim benefits from it and as i pointed out, the only victim affected by it is Paul Kavanagh, who will lose his job.

El Alamein. wrote: »

To the point of hierarchy of victims argument. You really need to get away from this attempt to try and convince people that people who planted bombs are in some way on the same level with the people they blew to pieces.

What is disturbing is you try and actually play down what Lenny Murphy did to try and suit your disturbing logic and argument. It holds no weight for the majority of rational people.

Liar. I in no way "played down" what that monster did.

El Alamein. wrote: »

The majority of people in Northern Ireland just will not have it that the guy who planted the bomb on the Shankill road is somehow a victim and on the same level as the people he blew apart.

The people who got murdered in these bombings didn't stand a chance. The argument of the bomb planters being victims is probably one of the most psychotic and disturbing arguments you will see which have no rationality behind them.

The guy who planted the bomb on the Shankill Road is as much a victim as anyone else. The people who died are dead. For those they left behind, wether they were killed in a gun battle with the brits or out doing their shopping, the pain is no less real.
If they were killed in the conflict they were a victim of the conflict and any other attitude will only see us bogged down in these "who is more worthy" arguments and set reconciliation back further.
This bill attempts to say that one persons pain is more valid than another. That's despicable, discriminatory and completely against the spirit of the GFA and equality.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

One word, conscription.

That was a close one Murray, it was coming up on him fast but he locked the steering wheel, pulled up the handbrake and managed to dodge the issue.

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

That was a close one Murray, it was coming up on him fast but he locked the steering wheel, pulled up the handbrake and managed to dodge the issue.

I'm not dodging the issue at all, you're trying to deflect from the issue by bringing up the world wars.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm not dodging the issue at all, you're trying to deflect from the issue by bringing up the world wars.

Indeed i'm not. You said anyone who kills for their beliefs is a radical and unsavoury. Now do you still stand by that statement, or, as I suspect, does it only apply to republicans, with the odd nod towards loyalists thrown in so you come across as balanced?

Iwasfrozen

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Indeed i'm not. You said anyone who kills for their beliefs is a radical and unsavoury. Now do you still stand by that statement, or, as I suspect, does it only apply to republicans, with the odd nod towards loyalists thrown in so you come across as balanced?

When paramilitaries start fighting an upfront war and bind themselves by the Geneva convention then you may have a point.

Crooked Jack

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

When paramilitaries start fighting an upfront war and bind themselves by the Geneva convention then you may have a point.

So i take it you're not going to answer the question then? Why didn't you just say that at the start and save us all this messing?

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's not true at all, there are people who vote for SF who would never vote for a paramilitary.

.

....they'd be few and far between.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Indeed they did but this law doesn't ban people who lended political support to paramilitaries. Only a paramilitaries themselves.

....it doesn't ban paramilitaries. It bans people who have served time for paramilitary offences from acting as advisors - a dig, essentially, considering this doesn't affect MLA's, MP's or TD's, county councillors or anything else.

Dunrum Arbella.

You are naive to think it wasnt aimed at Sinn Fein. Unionism was always careful to incite and encourage loyalist murderers but the mainstream parties never brought them on board. Meanwhile state forces were rarely punished for their crimes and when they were they still conveniently qualify to be SPADs. The Brit that shot 12 year old Majella O'Hare in the back as she walked to Mass was acquitted. The Brit that shot 13 year old Kevin Heatley in the head as he sat on a wall out side his house was found guilty of unlawful killing and sentenced to three years (well under the five year limit of this bill) and then released a week later. This bill is aimed squarely at Sinn Fein and has nothing to do with victims or equality. No victim benefits from it and as i pointed out, the only victim affected by it is Paul Kavanagh, who will lose his job.

Look at what is in the bill, it doesn't just rule out terrorists. It rules out criminals regardless. So you are just wrong.

Crooked Jack, the majority of people in Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic do not care if the bill upsets you. Most people agree with it and really aren't bothered about the fascination you seem to have with terrorists and the apologist attitude towards them.

Liar. I in no way "played down" what that monster did.

Yes you did, you called Lenny Murphy a victim!. Only in the warped mind of an extremist Republican like yourself would you label Lenny Murphy a victim.

Go tell that to the families of the victims of Lenny Murphy and you will get a slap in the face. Trying to legitimise terrorism regardless of the sides to defend PIRA terrorism. The lowest of the low. The problem you have Crooked Jack, is the majority of people don't agree with you and frankly just see it as typical Republican loony views.

The guy who planted the bomb on the Shankill Road is as much a victim as anyone else. The people who died are dead. For those they left behind, wether they were killed in a gun battle with the brits or out doing their shopping, the pain is no less real.
If they were killed in the conflict they were a victim of the conflict and any other attitude will only see us bogged down in these "who is more worthy" arguments and set reconciliation back further.
This bill attempts to say that one persons pain is more valid than another. That's despicable, discriminatory and completely against the spirit of the GFA and equality.

Absolutely laughable to try and claim the Shankill bomber was a victim. Never heard a bigger load of horse sh*t in all my life. The innocent victims had NO CHANCE. Blow apart because of warped fascist Republican ideology. Most Irish people don't care and don't agree with this mentality.

Crooked Jack

Dunrum Arbella. wrote: »

Look at what is in the bill, it doesn't just rule out terrorists. It rules out criminals regardless. So you are just wrong.

No, I'm not. There are all sorts of stipulations on this bill. http://relativesforjustice.com/?p=1501 The SDLP were opposed to it until the draw of opportunistic point scoring and the emotional blackmail of Ann Travers u-turned their already directionless political outlook.
They know this bill is flawed and pointless.

Dunrum Arbella. wrote: »

Crooked Jack, the majority of people in Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic do not care if the bill upsets you. Most people agree with it and really aren't bothered about the fascination you seem to have with terrorists and the apologist attitude towards them.

This is the third political thread you've commented on since joining today and in each one you have claimed to know what the people want. mind if I ask how you "know" all this. See, Im a democrat so I have this pesky desire to do totally unnecessary stuff like ask the people what their opinion on something is before I claim to speak for them.

Dunrum Arbella. wrote: »

Yes you did, you called Lenny Murphy a victim!. Only in the warped mind of an extremist Republican like yourself would you label Lenny Murphy a victim.

The place is coming down with liars today. Obviously I dont need to defend against the allegation that I downplayed what Lenny murphy did because the posts are there and anyone can go read them, so this whole strawman argument is obviously just a deflection.
As for being a victim. Well, yeah, he was a victim. The IRA executed him and I'm delighted they did. He deserved it and a lot more, but he's still a victim of the IRA and a victim of the conflict. That doesnt mean I agree with him, doesnt even mean I respect him, but he was a victim of the conflict.

Dunrum Arbella. wrote: »

Go tell that to the families of the victims of Lenny Murphy and you will get a slap in the face. Trying to legitimise terrorism regardless of the sides to defend PIRA terrorism. The lowest of the low. The problem you have Crooked Jack, is the majority of people don't agree with you and frankly just see it as typical Republican loony views.

Hard to tell what you're accusing me of here. Am I a PIRA apologist? Am I a Shankill Butchers fanboy? Or are you just a raving loon who set up an account today (possibly a re-reg, you arent called Keith by any chance?) so you could have some sort of outlet for your hysterical nonsense?

Dunrum Arbella. wrote: »

Absolutely laughable to try and claim the Shankill bomber was a victim.

Thomas Begley was a victim of the conflict as much as anybody else. His family felt the same pain as anyone else's and deserve the same respect.

Dunrum Arbella. wrote: »

Never heard a bigger load of horse sh*t in all my life. The innocent victims had NO CHANCE. Blow apart because of warped fascist Republican ideology.

Fascist republican ideology? Is that like up down ideology? Or black white ideology? Or is it perhaps the case that you dont actually know what fascist means, it's just a nice buzz word to throw out there?

Dunrum Arbella. wrote: »

Most Irish people don't care and don't agree with this mentality.

You're really gonna have to let me borrow this crystal ball of yours that allows you to know the opinions of the irish nation on all issues without consulting them. Id love to find out what the nation's favourite film is or wether they make crisp sandwiches with or without butter.

Dunrum Arbella.

No, I'm not. There are all sorts of stipulations on this bill. http://relativesforjustice.com/?p=1501 The SDLP were opposed to it until the draw of opportunistic point scoring and the emotional blackmail of Ann Travers u-turned their already directionless political outlook.
They know this bill is flawed and pointless.

It obviously isn't pointless because you would not be commenting on it if it was. The SDLP did what was right. You just don't like it with the extremist Republican view you have.

This is the third political thread you've commented on since joining today and in each one you have claimed to know what the people want. mind if I ask how you "know" all this. See, Im a democrat so I have this pesky desire to do totally unnecessary stuff like ask the people what their opinion on something is before I claim to speak for them.

Make a thread on this issue with a poll in AH and see if they actually a) care about it, b) agree and c) disagree with it. You are just upset that it stops criminals from getting a special advisor position at Stormont. Earth to Crooked Jack, most people dislike criminals.

The place is coming down with liars today. Obviously I dont need to defend against the allegation that I downplayed what Lenny murphy did because the posts are there and anyone can go read them, so this whole strawman argument is obviously just a deflection.
As for being a victim. Well, yeah, he was a victim. The IRA executed him and I'm delighted they did. He deserved it and a lot more, but he's still a victim of the IRA and a victim of the conflict. That doesnt mean I agree with him, doesnt even mean I respect him, but he was a victim of the conflict.

Everyone who read the post will see exactly what you said. You claimed Lenny Murphy was a victim. A complete slap in the face to all the families of the victims he murdered. Absolutely shameful of you. You only said it to try and justify the warped ideology you have.

Hard to tell what you're accusing me of here. Am I a PIRA apologist? Am I a Shankill Butchers fanboy? Or are you just a raving loon who set up an account today (possibly a re-reg, you arent called Keith by any chance?) so you could have some sort of outlet for your hysterical nonsense?

Its clear to most people you are a ranting Republican loony who hasn't got a sense of reality at all. You only defended Lenny Murphy by labeling a murderer as a victim to try and legitimise terrorism. You must think most people on here are thick or something with the drivel you post.

Thomas Begley was a victim of the conflict as much as anybody else. His family felt the same pain as anyone else's and deserve the same respect.

Thomas Begley was a terroist who murdered people in cold blood.

Fascist republican ideology? Is that like up down ideology? Or black white ideology? Or is it perhaps the case that you dont actually know what fascist means, it's just a nice buzz word to throw out there?

Supporting undemocratic ways, fascist like behaviour. Murdering innocent civilians in the name of a warped ideology.

You're really gonna have to let me borrow this crystal ball of yours that allows you to know the opinions of the irish nation on all issues without consulting them. Id love to find out what the nation's favourite film is or wether they make crisp sandwiches with or without butter.

Just look at the vast majority of opinions on this website. They disagree with terrorism, the PIRA and any other group which is involved in terrorism. You support terrorism. Get over it, the "war" is over and the border is in place.

awec

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awec

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Bigdeadlydave

awec wrote: »

These positions are public sector roles. They are civil servants. To suggest that the public have no right to decide who is hired into these rolls is daft in the extreme. In fact that's barrel scraping.

Serious criminals are barred from the rest of the civil service, why should this lot be treated any differently?

The anger directed toward Ann Travers in this thread is utterly disgusting but not surprising. I guess she's not entitled to speak out cause she's speaking out against SF?

What I find most hilarious is this yapping about a hierarchy of victims. The dripping irony here is that this hierarchy was created by Sinn Fein. Obviously it's totally lost on some.

So the public can elect Gerry Kelly, he can be a minister etc, yet his advisor cannot come from a similar (or even less serious) background? Seems daft to me.

awec

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Bigdeadlydave

awec wrote: »

Gerry Kelly is an MLA. SPADs are civil servants and should be subject to the same rules as all other civil servants.

SPADs are also not elected by the public.

I'd be utterly disgusted if some unionist politician hired Michael Stone as an advisor. Why there is moaning that people like Kavanagh can't take up these very highly paid roles any more is beyond me.

Maybe you'd like us to go back to the days where in the north people had to swear an oath to the crown to be a civil servant? Exclude everyone with nationalist or republican feeling from the jobs?

People like you should get out of the past and accept the reality, former political prisoners are not like "normal prisoners" (you and your ilk, unless you are particularly stuck in the past) acknowledged this when you overwhelmingly voted for them to be released early. But now you want to exlude them from working for the public service entirely.

Excluding them from being advisors is just pathetically childish and vindictive - times have changed and you mightn't like it, but you should try to get used to it.

In reality I expect it will make very little difference because these jobs tend to go to young people, all they will do (I expect) is shuffle things around and employ these people in constituency offices and the like (they'll still be payed by the Brits don't ya know )

awec

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