Random Wrasslin' thoughts.....

Angron

Riddle101 wrote: »

Since people are going on about Joey Ryan, has anyone seen this video of Lio Rush no selling a table spot and Package Piledriver? In my opinion that is unacceptable, it just completely ruins wrestling matches seeing guys killing each other and no selling moves that should end a match. Just gives indy wrestling a bad name.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aa0VVV9MfFo

Road Warrior Hawk would be proud.

LeeJM

Also MNG you are going on about non fans seeing that spot and it being embarrassing and dragging the whole business down etc etc. Yet you are being exactly like those non fans you talk about and laser focusing on a five minute segment on a four hour long show that featured some the best wrestling you will see anywhere in the world. Pete Dunne, Tyler Bate, Marty Scurll, Mark Haskins, Ricochet, Matt Sydal, War Machine, Jeff Cobb were all on that show and yet all you want to discuss is Joey Ryans dick flip on a barely mobile former WWE Champion that in the grand scheme of things means absolutely fúck all. Let it go and realise that their are aspects of the business that you dont enjoy. Thats fine, hell like I said I dont even like Joey Ryan but I understand he has his place in the business the same way Razor Ramon Hard Gay had, the same way the Right to Censor had, the same way Tarzan Goto had. Oh and go watch that OTT show and if all you want to talk about afterwards is Joey Ryan then I dunno what to tell you because his match and time in the ring was so insignificant to that show.

Me Nice Guy, whatever you do don't watch this. It exposes the business.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pprlLlVhpQo

LeeJM

Omackeral wrote: »

Me Nice Guy, whatever you do don't watch this. It exposes the business.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pprlLlVhpQo

I love that spot and watch it every so often to remind myself of how great it was.

Necrominus

Necrominus wrote: »

Just read through the last page of this. Who in the name of God is Joey Ryan and what is this dick spot people are on about?
Literally never heard of the guy until his name popped up here

It's Joey Ryan, the man who ruined global Pro Wrestling. Shut the forum down please.

LeeJM

LeeJM wrote: »

I love that spot and watch it every so often to remind myself of how great it was.

Wrestling can be f*cking dumb. I love it. Imagine you fighting your boss and his son for a 50% share in the company.... in a ladder match. Imagine battling your undead brother in a flaming wrestling ring where the object is to set your auld sibling on fire there. For every Angle vs Benoit technical classic you had the former Olympian hamming it up with the Milkomania milk truck and singing Sexy Kurt.

gerrybbadd

I cant figure out this outrage. Wrestling has always had kooky spots.

Jesus, Kota Ibushi (consider one of, if not the best in the world) used to do matches against a blow up sex doll.

Matt Hardy was "broken"
Santino had a snake that turned against him one time, when Khali charmed it with a flute.
Al Snow had an imaginary friend in Head.
Perry Saturn brought a mop to the ring with him.

leggo

But the Midnight Express!!!

Mr.Nice Guy

I expected when I clicked on to this thread that at least one of you would have answered the question I posed on previous pages which I must have asked about 3 or 4 times at this stage. I'll ask it again so you can likely ignore it again:

is there any move that a wrestler could do which you feel would be indefensible and an embarrassment to the business, or is your view that anything goes if it gets a reaction?

How can you criticize me and others who find this so objectionable and so over the line, and then not tell us whether or not you think personally there is actually a line to be crossed? And if there is a line of decency, what would be beyond the pale for yourselves? This goes to the heart of the whole discussion. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

This is not about goofy antics in wrestling. It's about a sleazy, intelligence-insulting antic in wrestling which drags the reputation of the business into the gutter.

Some have said Ryan doesn't have an audience for his idiocy. I just pointed out a few pages back that a BBC show in prime time displayed the clip as a way to poke fun at wrestling. That's millions of people. And maybe hundreds of thousands are seeing his antics over the internet. It's all causing harm to the perception of wrestling in the eyes of the mainstream. They see it as low-rent, cheap trash - which this spot is.

As for the claim that...

There's no magic left in a world where everyone knows magic isn't real, so pretending it is is just a couple guys doing a stupid dance in a ring fooling nobody. Whereas if you actually show some self-awareness and treat the audience with respect by saying, "We know this is ridiculous, but you love it anyway and we're gonna have some fun with it" then guess what? You actually ENGAGE them! There's a disconnect between the adult audience and WWE programming right now, whereas the indies who trend towards catering for a smarter audience are all booming. This isn't a coincidence.

This is demonstrably false. Have a look at the demise of WCW with "ridiculous" moments like the fingerpoke of doom and David Arquette winning WCW's title. This did not "engage" WCW's audience. It destroyed it.

All you are left with when you run off most of your audience is a small collection of die-hards, just like with TNA. And it's no surprise that the best PPV buyrate TNA ever did was Angle vs Joe, a feud they allowed Dutch Mantel to book, who presented the feud in a SERIOUS way, and with hype videos showing the intensity of the upcoming FIGHT. Not a bunch of silly, juvenile nonsense to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

And in regards to magic, if you go to a magic show, what the audience does is suspend disbelief. Everyone knows if they think about it that the magician is not really sawing the lady in half. Those secrets were let out of the bag twenty years ago by the masked magician chap. But people in the crowd suspend their disbelief to heighten their enjoyment.

If a magician did a show where he pulled out his penis, and began waving it around as a wand, and when people complained his reply was, "well this is all bullsh*t so what does it matter if I use a willy for a wand", do you think this would be of benefit to other magicians in the area, even if a lot of people paid to see this idiocy? I suspect not, and I suspect it would do huge harm to the reputation of the actual talented magicians out there who want to be booked at reputable functions, and not be seen as a f*cking circus act, befitting of a low-rent hen night.

LeeJM

The WWE World Heavyweight Title was used during a feud that involved necrophilia, thats probably a line in the sand nobody ever wants to cross. Dutch Mantell for all his plaudits has also been on booking committees that have booked Jeff Jarrett to hit women with guitars and call them all sorts of names, should we talk about that or just the stuff that he did well?

Mentioning Joe and Angle like they've never done questionable stuff.

Samoa Joe was going around as a vigilante with a sharpened machete threatening people, Kurt Angle wanted to have bestiality sex with Booker T's wife. Get over it.

Bounty Hunter

Im not sure what the point of mentioning past spots is. If I'm teaching a kid (as I do) who does something wrong and he then says well this other lad did it (or something similar) I would tell him that that it doesn't matter what someone else did cos what he did now is wrong (and in many of those cases in retrospect *Katie Vick for example* they were too)



If I was a wrestler I would never want to be involved in that spot as it'd make me seem like a joke. If I was a booker I wouldn't want that spot booked on my show if that was a show for a big promotion. I won't lie though if I was in charge of a small indie show and a wrestler was happy to have that spot done to him (especially one that would garner even more attention as a result) i'd happily let them bring a lot of attention to my promotion (even if somewhat negative) by doing the spot.

I don't like the fact that people like Cody or Foley were involved but I don't blame the promter for saying yeah go ahead lads and tbh in some ways I don't blame Joey Ryan as if not for this he might have already drifted out of PW relevance.

Mr.Nice Guy

Omackeral wrote: »

Mentioning Joe and Angle like they've never done questionable stuff.

Samoa Joe was going around as a vigilante with a sharpened machete threatening people, Kurt Angle wanted to have bestiality sex with Booker T's wife. Get over it.

Mate, you're afraid to answer a question I've put to you several times. I'll ask it for what must be the fifth time:

is there any move that a wrestler could do which you feel would be indefensible and an embarrassment to the business, or is your view that anything goes if it gets a reaction?

Telling someone to get over their viewpoint when you're too afraid to reveal your own. Unbelievable.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Mate, you're afraid to answer a question I've put to you several times. I'll ask it for what must be the fifth time.

Telling someone to get over their viewpoint when you're too afraid to reveal your own. Unbelievable.

Afraid?! Really?! Didn't realise you were putting that question to me. I'll answer now. I personally think anything with weed-whackers, panes of glass and light-tubes is anything BUT wrestling but I also realise that those matches take place far away from the main stream and have little to no influence on the grand scheme of things... just like Joey Ryan.

Now do you care to defend your super serious heroes Joe and Angle carrying hunting knives and threatening violent animal sex? What's either of those things got to do with a technical masterclass or a 5 star match?

Mr.Nice Guy

Omackeral wrote: »

Didn't realise you were putting that question to me. I'll answer now. I personally think anything with weed-whackers, panes of glass and light-tubes is anything BUT wrestling but I also realise that those matches take place far away from the main stream and have little to no influence on the grand scheme of things... just like Joey Ryan.

Now do you care to defend your super serious heroes Joe and Angle carrying hunting knives and threatening violent animal sex? What's either of those things got to do with a technical masterclass or a 5 star match?

Well thank you for addressing my question, but with respect you didn't answer it. See I am trying to find out from yourself and others if there is a move that a wrestler can do to an opponent that you consider to be indefensible and an embarrassment to the business - or do you think anything goes if it gets a reaction? I'm still none the wiser on where you stand.

In answer to your query, I don't defend Joe and Angle being involved in those segments, no. I think they were dumb. I have never suggested Joey Ryan is the first guy to do dumb things in wrestling. I am rather suggesting that Joey Ryan has lowered the bar several levels by using his PENIS to slam opponents, something so obviously phony and low-rent that it degrades the wrestling business.

If your response to this is to again tell me to "get over it" then you first have to tell me why you think I need to get over it - because in your eyes this is not enough of a lowering of the bar, or rather because you think there is no bar to be lowered and that anything goes. And this is why I ask you to answer my above question if you would, so I can know where you're coming from.

I think I answered it in a perfectly reasonable way. I think those ultra violent matches with those skinny fat blokes hitting each other with weed whackers and light tubes is ridiculous. I don't get it. It doesn't appeal to me. I don't think it appeals to any major majority of others. That's why we don't see it in mainstream wrestling. Some people obviously do like it, or else it wouldn't be booked to happen. It doesn't degrade the wrestling business, it's just another facet of an extremely varied form of entertainment. It doesn't appeal to me so I don't watch it. There's no fear of it showing up on my tv screen because it's not over in the mainstream. Same as, and I'm repeating myself here, Joey Ryan.

The reason I used the term 'get over it' is because it's not gonna be on any TV show anytime soon. It's not gonna invade your sphere of influence. Ignore it, don't seek it out. It's very easily done.

Mr.Nice Guy

But see the difficulty I have is I agree with you in not liking those matches with fat guys hitting each other in ultra dangerous ways. We are on the same page as far as that goes. But where we seem to differ is on Joey Ryan because I find this even more sleazy, pitiful, and low-rent - a guy flipping opponents with his penis - yet you seem to be okay with that? And I'm not quite sure (still) why that is.

Do you believe that anything goes? This is why I posed the hypothetical question a few pages back about 'what if a female wrestler used her vagina in a similar way' - she got crowd reactions, she got crowds to see her, but does that make it okay? What about a tag team that had a move where they defecated on their opponents? Would this sort of toilet humour be okay? Should I ignore this when I feel it is doing harm to a hobby of mine that I enjoy?

You say it's not going to invade my sphere of influence, but mate I've just pointed out that a wrestling legend like Mick Foley, and one of the most talked about wrestlers outside WWE, Cody Rhodes, have given this guy a seal of approval by working with him.

Can you not see why I find this objectionable? Can you not see that I worry this becomes a trend? Some of you are saying, fair play to the guy for making a living out of it. What's to stop some other low-talent chap thinking they will do the same thing using some of the hypotheticals I outlined above? It opens a Pandora's Box then of Jackass-style juvenile trash if this stuff gains acceptance. That is my issue and why I feel strongly about it. You say ignore it like it will go away. I don't think it will just go away unless it is challenged. That's my point.

Ok first of all I never said whether I liked the spot or not. I think it's daft. But others liked it. Having said that, I've been to OTT and have seen spots that would be crap if I was watching them from home but when you're there, they're a bit of craic. An example would be a fella using a Street Fighter style Hadouken move or Pastor William Ever doing holy moves like phantom chokeslams where he doesn't touch the guy but the dude bumps for a chokeslam anyway. They're silly but the live crowd like them.

On the card with Ever doing the holy chokeslam, I saw Tyler Bate, Matt Riddle, Mark Haskins, Ryan Smile, Pete Dunne and a host of other phenomenal guys. I didn't leave the Tivoli Theatre thinking ''that Preacher fella doing the magic phantom spot is ruining wrestling.'' It provided a bit of comic relief. If everyone has a straight up 5 star classic match after match, the card loses luster. Nothing is special. It's cool to take a breather now and then. If it was good enough for Mick Foley, it's ok by me. It's an over 18's indy show in a small setting, it's not gonna start any global trends.

FWIW, Joey Ryan would've made it by now if he was going to. He's found his niche and found his ceiling. He's a one trick pony. Some like it, some don't. Can't please all of the people all of the time. That's pretty much all my points made on this. We're probably wrecking the thread at this stage.

PopePalpatine

PopePalpatine wrote: »

RIP in 24-inch pythons.

Huh?

PopePalpatine

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Huh?

Well, his old tattoo was on his bicep, hence the "24-inch pythons" reference.

PopePalpatine

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Well, his old tattoo was on his bicep, hence the "24-inch pythons" reference.

It's confusing cos his arms are still there! RIP Brahma Bull would've been better!

Dunno which spot is better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYTRm7nYHh4

or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOcjq4siu7A

Lithium93_

Omackeral wrote: »

Dunno which spot is better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYTRm7nYHh4

or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOcjq4siu7A

I'd personally say the invisible choke slam.

Lithium93_

Lithium93_ wrote: »

I'd personally say the invisible choke slam.

I dunno man, you can hear him call the spot pretty clearly. Kinda takes you out of the moment.

Mr.Nice Guy

Omackeral wrote: »

Ok first of all I never said whether I liked the spot or not. I think it's daft. But others liked it. Having said that, I've been to OTT and have seen spots that would be crap if I was watching them from home but when you're there, they're a bit of craic. An example would be a fella using a Street Fighter style Hadouken move or Pastor William Ever doing holy moves like phantom chokeslams where he doesn't touch the guy but the dude bumps for a chokeslam anyway. They're silly but the live crowd like them.

On the card with Ever doing the holy chokeslam, I saw Tyler Bate, Matt Riddle, Mark Haskins, Ryan Smile, Pete Dunne and a host of other phenomenal guys. I didn't leave the Tivoli Theatre thinking ''that Preacher fella doing the magic phantom spot is ruining wrestling.'' It provided a bit of comic relief. If everyone has a straight up 5 star classic match after match, the card loses luster. Nothing is special. It's cool to take a breather now and then. If it was good enough for Mick Foley, it's ok by me. It's an over 18's indy show in a small setting, it's not gonna start any global trends.

FWIW, Joey Ryan would've made it by now if he was going to. He's found his niche and found his ceiling. He's a one trick pony. Some like it, some don't. Can't please all of the people all of the time. That's pretty much all my points made on this. We're probably wrecking the thread at this stage.

So you agree you'd think they were dumb if you saw them at home, but because you're actually there, you figure why not indulge the clown show and those making a mockery of the business as well as themselves. Problem is the number of people NOT there dwarfs the die-hards who are there, and they are turned off by this garbage, and rightly so.

Omackeral wrote:

Dunno which spot is better

Maybe poll the 100 odd people who showed up.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Problem is the number of people NOT there dwarfs the die-hards who are there, and they are turned off by this garbage, and rightly so.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Maybe poll the 100 odd people who showed up.

They'll never see it unless they're there. You say yourself there's only 100 or so at these type of shows. What harm?! It's a drop in the ocean! How does this not compute? I'm done with you on this. I can't state the same points over and over.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

So you agree you'd think they were dumb if you saw them at home, but because you're actually there, you figure why not indulge the clown show and those making a mockery of the business as well as themselves.

That pro wrasslin, serious business. It's blokes in costumes pretending to fight each other for our amusement. That's what it is. You're trying to come off all smart but you're getting worked more than anyone else it seems.

Mr.Nice Guy

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

So you agree you'd think they were dumb if you saw them at home, but because you're actually there, you figure why not indulge the clown show

YES, ABSOLUTELY!!! I mean Jesus Christ guy, is it a difficult concept? Joey Ryan and his willy won't be on WrestleMania or WrestleKingdom. It's ok! If I go to a show such as OTT and there's gonna be stellar matches, I have no problem having a little break from that. If I'm there and I've paid my entry free, I'm gonna loosen up and have a good time with the entertainment. You donb't like, go to the bar, go buy some merch, go to the bathroom.

Necro

Still don't know who Joey Ryan is :P

My knowledge of pro wrestling is really big league orientated. I have to say, of a spot like that appeared in WWE I'd hang my head in shame.

All the angles brought up as comparisons are in my humble opinion low points for wrestling in general. Giving birth to hands, necrophilia, men being hung on PPV, terrorists taking out a dead man, a man in face paint eating worms, etc etc... It's all rubbish.

I don't really have any horse backed in this race, I legitimately had no idea of this spot or indeed the card/event it appeared on was in Ireland until it was highlighted here.

It's not cos I'm living under a rock in terms of wrestling. But I genuinely don't have the time, or indeed the vested interest to scope out the indie scene. I barely get time to watch a highlight show of RAW these days.

To answer MNG's question directly about what move would be the final straw or so to say regards wrestling... I honestly don't know.

But some random unknown dude hitting another dude with his dick is probably a line I'm not sure I want to see crossed. I agree it makes it worse as you have legends like Foley and to a lesser extent Cody involved. It doesn't help that a BBC show then highlights it as a comedy sketch (but then again, have they ever shown wrestling before?)

But if a couple of thousand people watch it.. meh. Not a deal breaker for me. If Roman Reigns replaces the Superman Punch with the Dick Slap then we'll have a problem though

Mr.Nice Guy

Omackeral wrote: »

They'll never see it unless they're there. You say yourself there's only 100 or so at these type of shows. What harm?! It's a drop in the ocean! How does this not compute? I'm done with you on this. I can't state the same points over and over.

I was not there and I have seen it. :pac: The harm is great because they are inflicting this trash far beyond the realm of those willing to pay for it.

Omackeral wrote:

That pro wrasslin, serious business. It's blokes in costumes pretending to fight each other for our amusement. That's what it is. You're trying to come off all smart but you're getting worked more than anyone else it seems.

This is not pro wrestling. What you paid to see was a bunch of guys with no concept of what pro wreslting is, who may be able to hit athletic moves crisply, but who have no respect or understanding of what the business is supposed to be about - athletic competition with scripted finishes. What you paid to see was self-indulgence on a gross scale. You can insult me all you want, and try to shut down my right to express my views all you want, but you won't alter my view on that.

Omackeral wrote:

YES, ABSOLUTELY!!! I mean Jesus Christ guy, is it a difficult concept? Joey Ryan and his willy won't be on WrestleMania or WrestleKingdom. It's ok! If I go to a show such as OTT and there's gonna be stellar matches, I have no problem having a little break from that. If I'm there and I've paid my entry free, I'm gonna loosen up and have a good time with the entertainment. You donb't like, go to the bar, go buy some merch, go to the bathroom

I can assure you I won't be paying to see Ryan or others like him. Whatever people want to do in private settings is their own business. But when they film this trash and put it out into public view for public consumption, tainting the view of professional wrestling in the process, that is where I must object.

Necrominus wrote:

But if a couple of thousand people watch it.. meh. Not a deal breaker for me. If Roman Reigns replaces the Superman Punch with the Dick Slap then we'll have a problem though

I agree with most of what you say but don't you think there is a worrying prospect of others like Ryan with limited talent, who want to get a name for themselves, resorting to ever more low-rent tactics that you'd tend to associate with the likes of Steve-O, Johnny Knoxville etc? And I like watching those antics when I'm watching Jackass, but I don't like watching this being styled as pro wrestling, when to me it is embarrassing, stupidly phony, and in Ryan's case, sleazy and crass.

Insect Overlord

Is your issue from a subjective moral standpoint, or are you coming concerned purely with the perception of the wrestling business?