Official Haswell reviews in!

jumbobreakfast

http://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/intel_haswell_core_i5_4670k_core_i7_4770k_review,1.html

http://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/5522/intel-core-i7-4770k-haswell-4th-gen-cpu-and-z87-express-chipset-review/index.html

Havent even read them myself yet

gamer_Niall

Nice one!

Serephucus

Performs slightly better than the 3770K, much less idle power usage, ridiculous overclocking temperatures. I'll be sticky with Ivy I think.

game4it70

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7003/the-haswell-review-intel-core-i74770k-i54560k-tested

Here is another one.

TTL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrLtjgbga5g&feature=player_embedded

jumbobreakfast

Gaming performance when using a separate graphics card has not improved much according to these tests but I want to see some benchmarks of Arma 2 and 3 as that is still very dependent on CPU power.

Serephucus

TTL's review: 4770K @ 4.6, 1.2V

91°C. H100i.

Hope he gets a de-lidding vid up soon...

game4it70

Serephucus wrote: »

TTL's review: 4770K @ 4.6, 1.2V

91°C. H100i.

Hope he gets a de-lidding vid up soon...

Those temps are putting me off as i feel my water wont work as well as it should if there is such bad tim aplication again.

I dont think i'd have the nerve to de-lid it so i may get a 2nd ivy instead.

Serephucus

Heh, Bloodbath, better sell those Cooler Master shares. :P

Yeah, I'm a little hesitant to de-lid as well, but if my planned build goes ahead, I'll have a 140 rad cooling CPU and GPU, so I'll need whatever thermal help I can get. :P

tuxy

Serephucus wrote: »

TTL's review: 4770K @ 4.6, 1.2V

91°C. H100i.

Hope he gets a de-lidding vid up soon...

Does haswell use solder or TIM between the die and IHS?

Serephucus

Not sure. My suspicion is TIM though, as Tom has said he "will be doing a de-lid, and a de-lid guide" so I assume the Intel guys have told him which.

game4it70

Thats deffo cutting it fine with just a 140 so a delid would be needed if you want any sort of overclock.

I have a quad and double so kinda need to delid i'd say as its a waste other wise.
:mad:

Decisions decisions hmmmmm

Serephucus

Guy on [H] managed to get pretty damn good temps with a very similar setup. I'm not hugely bothered with a high overclock anyway to be honest. It's not like a 4.8GHz CPU is actually needed right now.

Gumbi

Serephucus wrote: »

Guy on [H] managed to get pretty damn good temps with a very similar setup. I'm not hugely bothered with a high overclock anyway to be honest. It's not like a 4.8GHz CPU is actually needed right now.

It is on Starcraft But that's more of an insult to SC's multithreading than a good reason to OC this high HAHA.

BloodBath

TTL's review: 4770K @ 4.6, 1.2V

91°C. H100i.

Hope he gets a de-lidding vid up soon...

Wtf is that? What was running when that test was recorded? Intelburntest?

Still crazy high for a H100i.

Heh, Bloodbath, better sell those Cooler Master shares.

I only have eyes for AMD shares Gone up 60% since I posted here about them.

Serephucus

BloodBath wrote: »

Wtf is that? What was running when that test was recorded? Intelburntest?

Still crazy high for a H100i.

That was with OCCT, which is a Linpack test, so similar-ish to IBT. The 91 was also the hottest core, but the coldest was a chilly 87.

Gumbi

BloodBath wrote: »

Wtf is that? What was running when that test was recorded? Intelburntest?

Still crazy high for a H100i.



I only have eyes for AMD shares Gone up 60% since I posted here about them.

I might come off as being amateurish, but here goes: my budget Hyper 212 manages 4.6ghz on 1.285v on my 3570k , maxing out at 90 degrees Celsius... Those results with the H100i (high end water cooler?) can't be right, can they? That bodes terribly for Haswell if that's the case.

That's really cool with regard to the AMD shares btw :P

Serephucus

Yes it does. Hence my jab at Boodbath and his Evo. :P

I'll go out on a limb and say you'll be limited to around 4.4 with an Evo on Haswell.

Monotype

Very meh overall. We do get 6 SATA 6Gbps with the Z87 chipset though which is nice.
I suppose Intel don't really feel the pressure to better themselves, just keep themselves ticking over... or tock to be precise.

The boards should be good for two generations, given previous roadmaps, so it's good for new builds. Not worth Sandy/Ivy upgrades unless you have to have the latest.

uncle_sam_ie

My Sandy 2500k OC'd to 4.5 Ghz was a good buy at the time. I see no reason to upgrade to Haswell.

BloodBath

I don't like upgrading anything unless I'm getting at least double the performance. I'll have my 3570k for a while I think.

jumbobreakfast

Intel i7 950 @ 3GHz here so I'll be upgrading. I could only get the 950 up to a reasonably stable 3.8 GHz so I'll probabaly get a pre-overclocked bundle this time.

Handy comparator here:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/100?vs=836

ShadowHearth

uncle_sam_ie wrote: »

My Sandy 2500k OC'd to 4.5 Ghz was a good buy at the time. I see no reason to upgrade to Haswell.

I am with my good old Sandy too!



But really, anyone that has 2500k and just plays games and not bothered about epenis is safe for a long time. My Setup is 1 year 6 months old as I speak. Any game i Throw at it goes maxed out. the only thing that I might upgrade is going to be a GPU, but I dont really need it this gen at all. Good all sandy will be with me for a good few years.

tuxy

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

Intel i7 950 @ 3GHz here so I'll be upgrading. I could only get the 950 up to a reasonably stable 3.8 GHz so I'll probabaly get a pre-overclocked bundle this time.

3.8GHZ on an i7 950 is good.
The newer intel CPUs overclock better, I have never head of anyone not being able to reach 4.2 ghz from sandy bridge onwards.
You would be wasting money by buying a pre-overclocked bundle.

ShadowHearth wrote: »

But really, anyone that has 2500k and just plays games and not bothered about epenis is safe for a long time. My Setup is 1 year 6 months old as I speak. Any game i Throw at it goes maxed out. the only thing that I might upgrade is going to be a GPU, but I dont really need it this gen at all. Good all sandy will be with me for a good few years.

Yeah, I normally play new games at high setting. A full system build will normally last me 6 years if I replace the graphics card after 3 years.

beno619

Unless I find a killer deal on Ivy il probably go Haswell next week mostly for the better power consumption.

Has anybody found detailed overclocking coverage ?

This also gives AMD a chance to impress with Kaveri come the end of the year.

NTMK

meh its ok hoping for lower temps for WC but its hardly surprising that they're struggling to amaze us like the did with sandy.

BloodBath

Probably won't see many improvements until Skylake and Skymont.

Silicon is reaching the end of the line at that stage though.

abbir

I'm using my Sandybridge i5-2500k and see no reason to upgrade. I've it overclocked to 4.2ghz and still have low temperatures. The machine is 2 years and 5 months old and still works great.

I'd like to get a new graphics card and am tempted by the gtx 770 but I'm trying to hold out to see what AMD brings out next.

jumbobreakfast

tuxy wrote: »

3.8GHZ on an i7 950 is good.
The newer intel CPUs overclock better, I have never head of anyone not being able to reach 4.2 ghz from sandy bridge onwards.
You would be wasting money by buying a pre-overclocked bundle.

Yeah it only BSOD'd about once a month so I was fairly happy with it but it took me a long time to get it right (had to downgrade to 6GB RAM too) and I just dont have the time or interest now. I want about 4.6+ GHz this time round as Arma 2 and 3 seem to still be heavily CPU bound and if I dont get a pre-overclocked bundle I might end up with a chip that is a poor overclocker.

BloodBath

4.5+ is pretty easy. The only people struggling to get above 4.2 are using the stock cooler.

Tea_Bag

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

Yeah it only BSOD'd about once a month so I was fairly happy with it but it took me a long time to get it right (had to downgrade to 6GB RAM too) and I just dont have the time or interest now. I want about 4.6+ GHz this time round as Arma 2 and 3 seem to still be heavily CPU bound and if I dont get a pre-overclocked bundle I might end up with a chip that is a poor overclocker.

it honestly is very very simple to OC sandy chips, its nothing like the 1366/AM3 era. read a quick quide. there's probably 6 steps.

BloodBath wrote: »

Probably won't see many improvements until Skylake and Skymont.

Silicon is reaching the end of the line at that stage though.

it also means you shouldnt be investing too much in AMD (though i fully agree theyre a good investment, and would drop money on them any day of the week, had i any), but rather MIT/Manchester Uni. Fairly sure between them they've the patents sealed for pretty much every alternative to silicon. Royalties/licencing Yo!

BloodBath

Ah it's small money. €500 + the bonus €175 Plus500 gave invested. I'm sticking around for a year or so and selling it then. I'm expecting at least a quadrupling of value by then. If I had more spare cash I'd definitely be pumping it in although there's less value there now.

Bought at 2.8, highest so far was 4.4, currently 4.0. Expecting 10+ by next year.

Tea_Bag

bonus wha? 500 gave??

honestly, ive been saying AMD is a solid investment for a long time. there's so much more for the piledriver architecture to give in refinements, its GPU's are usually much better value, and its the sole winner of the console war.

BloodBath

Sorry I should have clarified. Plus500 is the program I use for trading. It's an online trader account similar to a poker type account. There was a €150 bonus for a €500 deposit and a free €25 just for making an account. You can trade with this money without ever putting any funds in.

You have to build up trading points to withdraw the bonus money though but you can still invest with it.

There's also virtual currency if you want to mess about to see how you get on. You start with 20k. i'm up to 32k on that. Invested in Tesla and AMD. Now I just need some real life funds to start making my fortune trading

game4it70

Prices/stock are up now.
Some of the mobo's are very good prices.

Cpus
http://www.hardwareversand.de/2211/Socket+1150.search

Gumbi

BloodBath wrote: »

Sorry I should have clarified. Plus500 is the program I use for trading. It's an online trader account similar to a poker type account. There was a €150 bonus for a €500 deposit and a free €25 just for making an account. You can trade with this money without ever putting any funds in.

You have to build up trading points to withdraw the bonus money though but you can still invest with it.

There's also virtual currency if you want to mess about to see how you get on. You start with 20k. i'm up to 32k on that. Invested in Tesla and AMD. Now I just need some real life funds to start making my fortune trading

That's actually really cool! Especially the virtual currency.

Gumbi

game4it70 wrote: »

Prices/stock are up now.
Some of the mobo's are very good prices.

Cpus
http://www.hardwareversand.de/2211/Socket+1150.search

€222 for the 4670k isn't as bad as I had thought it would be earlier.

beno619

Gumbi wrote: »

€222 for the 4670k isn't as bad as I had thought it would be earlier.

Pricing is quite nice but could they really justify a premium over Ivy for desktop parts, they seem cheaper than Ivy launch prices IIRC ?

game4it70

Gumbi wrote: »

€222 for the 4670k isn't as bad as I had thought it would be earlier.

Its the cheapest i've found.

Really struggling to find a nice looking mobo though.
I wanted a gene but there about 200e which more than i want to spend and also all pre-order.

NTMK

Tea_Bag wrote: »

bonus wha? 500 gave??

honestly, ive been saying AMD is a solid investment for a long time. there's so much more for the piledriver architecture to give in refinements, its GPU's are usually much better value, and its the sole winner of the console war.

yep with the consoles they'll have plenty of cash to compete with intel (200 million APU's over 5-7 years guaranteed)

Monotype

I'm liking the selection in the motherboards for Haswell, especially the ITXs.
E.g., look at this one from MSI. €115 from hardwareversand.
http://www.msi.com/product/mb/Z87I.html
Dual[/url] LAN - that's generally a feature that reserved for high end boards. OK, maybe not the most useful for most people, but it's nice to see the little extras. There's also a wireless card in a mini-PCI-E slot which also supports Wi-Di for easily doing a wireless monitor. Four USB3 ports and a USB3 header too!

The Asrock Z87E-ITX (€160 @ HWV) - http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z87E-ITX/index.us.asp
Has six SATA ports, better sound and a mSATA slot as well as a mini-PCI-E slot. Also has a card with the new "ac" wireless standard which will apparently be able to do 1Gbps.

tuxy

Delided haswell 20C lower in bios

http://www.overclock.net/t/1313179/official-delidded-club/18730#post_20106947

In BIOS the CPU is neither idle nor stressed. We will have to wait and see how it performs under stress but it looks like intel is either using really low quality TIM or not applying it correctly.
Does this save them much money over the soldered solution we saw in sandy bridge?

Serephucus

20°C idle temp drop?! Man, I want to see load results.

NTMK

tuxy wrote: »

Delided haswell 20C lower in bios

http://www.overclock.net/t/1313179/official-delidded-club/18730#post_20106947

In BIOS the CPU is neither idle nor stressed. We will have to wait and see how it performs under stress but it looks like intel is either using really low quality TIM or not applying it correctly.
Does this save them much money over the soldered solution we saw in sandy bridge?

its not a cost issue really its a process issue. The way sandy was done is a pain in the hole compared to sticking a load of TIM into the lid. the TIM in some cases could actually cost more than the fluxless solder

Gumbi

Serephucus wrote: »

20°C idle temp drop?! Man, I want to see load results.

Without reading the thread, that simply can't be idle, can it? I would imagine idle temps to be, at maximum 35ish degrees (probably a touch lower in the BIOS, too). So take away 20 from that and we're below most ambient temps; therefore, impossible :P

tuxy

A CPU is not idle in BIOS afaik

tuxy

NTMK wrote: »

its not a cost issue really its a process issue. The way sandy was done is a pain in the hole compared to sticking a load of TIM into the lid. the TIM in some cases could actually cost more than the fluxless solder

When it come to both CPUs and GPUs manufactures seem to put way too apply way too much TIM. Is this to err on the side of caution.

Too little would cause the chip to fail.
But too much would just cause some excess heat but not so much that the chip would fail with stock settings.

Serephucus

tuxy wrote: »

A CPU is not idle in BIOS afaik

Can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be (I don't know, educated guess here). Even if it's not, it's got to be much closer to idle than 100% load across all cores.

I'd love to see someone running a 4670K on the stock cooler, encoding a hundred or so videos with Handbrake, and see the temperature results. I have a feeling Intel's "good enough" solution would in fact be not good enough.

NTMK

Serephucus wrote: »

Can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be (I don't know, educated guess here). Even if it's not, it's got to be much closer to idle than 100% load across all cores.

I'd love to see someone running a 4670K on the stock cooler, encoding a hundred or so videos with Handbrake, and see the temperature results. I have a feeling Intel's "good enough" solution would in fact be not good enough.

I havent seen my sandy ever be idle in bios. its usually 10-12°C hotter in bios (though that could be down to the cooler being weird in the bios too)

its not really about "good enough" its about getting as many working chips out the door. the yield of devices where i work is about 15-20% and about 1/3 of those failures is to do with solder near silicon causing issues. if we could get rid of solder with TIM and Adhesive we would even if it cost a lot more.

I can run a video encode for a while to see what temps i get on a 4770K with a stock cooler if you want but it will be at the end of the month at the earliest

as regards the deliding ill wait to see how others get on and more importantly how my chip behaves

also which M-ATX board would you go with

BloodBath

If they are going to go with a TIM method then they should be using high quality stuff with proper application.

Why spend billions developing a cpu and then slap any amount of low grade gunk onto it?

marco_polo

AFAIK advanced speedstep/cool n'quiet power saving features of the CPU are not functioning while you are in the BIOS menu, which is why the temps tend to be higher than when idling in windows. I presume because the BIOS software has to be as lightweight/simplistic as possible.

tuxy

BloodBath wrote: »

If they are going to go with a TIM method then they should be using high quality stuff with proper application.

Why spend billions developing a cpu and then slap any amount of low grade gunk onto it?

It looks like Intel do not care once the CPU runs stable at stock speeds with a stock heatsink.


If the connection between the die and IHS is very poor. Will this render an expensive cooler ineffective and hence a waste of money unless you are deliding?