SAS unit ‘snatched’ Woolwich terror suspect Michael Adebolajo in Kenya???

Anynama141

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I suggest you look into the work of Robert Pape if you want to understand why "people blow themselves up"

A quick look at Wikipedia:

Pape's Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism (2005) contradicts many widely held beliefs about suicide terrorism. Based on an analysis of every known case of suicide terrorism from 1980 to 2003 (315 attacks as part of 18 campaigns), he concludes that there is "little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions... . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland" (p. 4). "The taproot of suicide terrorism is nationalism," he argues; it is "an extreme strategy for national liberation" (pp. 79–80). Pape's work examines groups such as the Al-Qaeda to the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers. Pape also notably provides further evidence to a growing body of literature that finds that the majority of suicide terrorists do not come from impoverished or uneducated background, but rather have middle class origins and a significant level of education.

How does Pape explain the suicide bombings in Afghanistan before the US invasion, or the suicide attacks in Iraq targeting other Muslim sects? And that's before we consider suicide attacks such as 9/11 or the London Tube bombings. His theory rather falls down there.

faustino1

Anynama141 wrote: »

I read Machiavelli many, many years ago. The difference between now and the age of Machiavelli is that information nowadays has a way of getting out, and once it's out you can't stop it spreading.

Hmm, your viewpoints seem to contradict that assertion.

It would take a very brave leader in a democratic country to come up with a murderous plot involving the murder of their own citizens in the internet age, when every secret document is a CTRL+C CTRL+V from the internet.

Brave leader?

I wouldn't consider Tony Blair taking the UK to war with Iraq based on lies a "Brave Leader"

Anynama141

faustino1 wrote: »

Hmm, your viewpoints seem to contradict that assertion.

They don't. Please explain how you think so?

faustino1 wrote: »

Brave leader?

I wouldn't consider Tony Blair taking the UK to war with Iraq based on lies a "Brave Leader"

Nor would I. A very foolish one, yes. He's not very popular in the UK any more, is he?

faustino1

Anynama141 wrote: »

They don't. Please explain how you think so?

Well, for start, the earth was FLAT when Machiavelli was around so I doubt he can give you any insight into the mind of a person TODAY.

Nor would I. A very foolish one, yes. He's not very popular in the UK any more, is he?

But UK citizens died because of his lies.
In 2012, an average of 22 US veterans committed suicide EVERY DAY.

22 people per DAY.

Not to mention the millions of Muslims that were displaced/killed because of lies by Tony Blair.......

Anynama141

faustino1 wrote: »

Well, for start, the earth was FLAT when Machiavelli was around so I doubt he can give you any insight into the mind of a person TODAY.

With respect, how does that show that my statement contradicted my own views? And I suggest if you don't understand what Machiavelli has to do with what you were talking about, you could do worse than reading his work. Times change quickly, but people change slowly.

Incidentally, the world has been known to be spherical for thousands of years.

faustino1 wrote: »

But UK citizens died because of his lies.
In 2012, an average of 22 US veterans committed suicide EVERY DAY.

22 people per DAY.

Not to mention the millions of Muslims that were displaced/killed because of lies by Tony Blair.......

Yes - and what has this got to do with what I posted? It's like you are responding to posts that someone else is writing.

faustino1

Anynama141 wrote: »

With respect, how does that show that my statement contradicted my own views?

Machiavelli isn't going to teach you anything about the conflict in the Middle East.

Incidentally, the world has been known to be spherical for thousands of years.

Yep..we know that now but Machiavelli didn't, nor did he know then what people are truly capable of, that's my point.

Yes - and what has this got to do with what I posted? It's like you are responding to posts that someone else is writing.

You want to believe governments are acting on your behalf at all times.
You're unwilling to accept covert operations by the security services are against you, and unfortunately that's not the case.

Writings of Machiavelli are absolutely worthless in any attempt to analyze what's happening in the world today.

A book like this would be worth 100x more. when trying to understand foreign policy of the Middle East.

Anynama141

faustino1 wrote: »

Machiavelli isn't going to teach you anything about the conflict in the Middle East.

I suggest that you read his work before you state that. I disagree - he was writing about the principle of 'divide and rule' rather a long time ago.

faustino1 wrote: »

Yep..we know that now but Machiavelli didn't, nor did he know then what people are truly capable of, that's my point.

For thousands of years people knew that the earth was NOT flat. I'm not sure why you think that Machiavelli thought otherwise?

faustino1 wrote: »

You want to believe governments are acting on your behalf at all times.
You're unwilling to accept covert operations by the security services are against you, and unfortunately that's not the case.

With respect, I have no evidence to suggest otherwise. I don't believe things without evidence, as that is religion or madness.

faustino1 wrote: »

Writings of Machiavelli are absolutely worthless in any attempt to analyze what's happening in the world today.

A book like this would be worth 100x more. when trying to understand foreign policy of the Middle East.

You are declaring that one of the most fundamental tracts on real politik is 'absolutely worthless' without actually reading it?

faustino1

Anynama141 wrote: »

I suggest that you read his work before you state that. I disagree - he was writing about the principle of 'divide and rule' rather a long time ago.

For thousands of years people knew that the earth was NOT flat. I'm not sure why you think that Machiavelli thought otherwise?

If we were arguing about the origin of the universe, writings from the 1500s probably wouldn't be acceptable.

You are declaring that one of the most fundamental tracts on real politik is 'absolutely worthless' without actually reading it?

To understand US foreign policy, I'd recommend Strategic Vision: America and the Crisis of Global Power

To understand the criminality of it, Guilt By Association: How Deception and Self-Deceit Took America to War

Millions of innocent people have died in the last 10 years because of lies you choose to believe in...

Anynama141

faustino1 wrote: »

If we were arguing about the origin of the universe, writings from the 1500s probably wouldn't be acceptable.

...and if we were discussing the strategies used by people in power, they certainly would be acceptable - unless you are suggesting that people have totally changed in that time?

faustino1 wrote: »

To understand US foreign policy, I'd recommend Strategic Vision: America and the Crisis of Global Power

To understand the criminality of it, Guilt By Association: How Deception and Self-Deceit Took America to War

Millions of innocent people have died in the last 10 years because of lies you choose to believe in...

At this point I am tired of your strawman strategy so I am reporting this post.

Brown Bomber

Anynama141 wrote: »

A quick look at Wikipedia:

How does Pape explain the suicide bombings in Afghanistan before the US invasion, or the suicide attacks in Iraq targeting other Muslim sects? And that's before we consider suicide attacks such as 9/11 or the London Tube bombings. His theory rather falls down there.

Seeing as he is an expert in suicide bombings and you clearly aren't I'm sure he would laugh in your face at your mentioning of phantom suicide bombings in Afghanistan pre-invasion.

I'm not getting into the others but the US and friends formented the sectarian civil war in Iraq to suit their own ends.

Do you remember the SAS guys caught with explosives and dressed as Arabs?

Anynama141

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Seeing as he is an expert in suicide bombings and you clearly aren't I'm sure he would laugh in your face at your mentioning of phantom suicide bombings in Afghanistan pre-invasion.

He's a soi disant expert, it seems, seeing as he needs to ignore important data to make his hypothesis fit. And what's this about 'phantom suicide bombings'? I assure you for the people blown up, they felt very real.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not getting into the others but the US and friends formented the sectarian civil war in Iraq to suit their own ends.

Those ends being to make the country ungovernable and to totally discredit the idea of regime change? The US will have to wait 20 years before trying to 'spread democracy' somewhere else on the back of the Iraq disaster. I think you give them far too much credit - never attribute to malice what can be sufficiently explained by stupidity.

Brown Bomber

Anynama141 wrote: »

He's a soi disant expert, it seems, seeing as he needs to ignore important data to make his hypothesis fit. And what's this about 'phantom suicide bombings'? I assure you for the people blown up, they felt very real.

Nah, you are wrong. From the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan
http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?page=publisher&publisher=UNAMA&type=&coi=&docid=49997b00d&skip=0

In Afghanistan, suicide attacks are a new phenomenon. Before the assassination of
Ahmad Shah Massoud on September 9th 2001, the notion that suicide might be used to
kill others was considered alien. Indeed, when such attacks began appearing with
regularity in 2005 and 2006, the community’s initial response was to reject the possibility
that Afghans themselves might be involved.

Anynama141 wrote: »

Those ends being to make the country ungovernable and to totally discredit the idea of regime change? The US will have to wait 20 years before trying to 'spread democracy' somewhere else on the back of the Iraq disaster. I think you give them far too much credit - never attribute to malice what can be sufficiently explained by stupidity.

Twenty years? What about the "regime change" for "democracy" in Libya? And the US armed, trained and backed Shia and Kurdish militias like the Wolf Brigade and these went on a rampage in Sunni areas which led to a Sunni resistance which led to the Civil War.

Iraq is now essentially 3 states, before the war nobody cared who was Shia or Sunni, they intermarried, lived in the same neighbourhoods, went to the same schools and so on.

Anynama141

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Nah, you are wrong. From the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan
http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?page=publisher&publisher=UNAMA&type=&coi=&docid=49997b00d&skip=0

So is that one of your phantom assassinations? It pre-dates the US invasion, doesn't it?

I think that makes me right, actually, and you wrong.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Twenty years? What about the "regime change" for "democracy" in Libya? And the US armed, trained and backed Shia and Kurdish militias like the Wolf Brigade and these went on a rampage in Sunni areas which led to a Sunni resistance which led to the Civil War.

There was a popular uprising in Libya, as there was in Egypt and in Tunisia. Why focus on Libya? I don't think you can credit/blame the US with any of them.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Iraq is now essentially 3 states, before the war nobody cared who was Shia or Sunni, they intermarried, lived in the same neighbourhoods, went to the same schools and so on.

Citation needed.

Brown Bomber

Anynama141 wrote: »

So is that one of your phantom assassinations? It pre-dates the US invasion, doesn't it?

I think that makes me right, actually, and you wrong. .

You are just splitting hairs. There was no culture of suicide bombing in Afghanistan before the US invasion as you implies. Therefore your criticism of Pape on this was uninformed and misguided.

Anynama141 wrote: »

There was a popular uprising in Libya, as there was in Egypt and in Tunisia. Why focus on Libya? I don't think you can credit/blame the US with any of them.

Citation needed.

I'm not sure which you need the citation for but here is information on the US formenting sectarian war in Iraq
http://truth-out.org/news/item/13122-how-petraeus-quietly-stoked-the-fires-of-sectarian-war-without-getting-burned

And here is information regarding the lack of sectarian troubles in Iraq before the US occupation.

American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee Communications Director Raed Jarrar joins Ahmed Shihab-Eldin to talk about America creating a sectarian divide between during the Iraq War.
"These issues were not a part of the daily life," Jarrar said. "We didn't talk about who's a Sunni and who's a Shiite...until 2003. There is a very clear line in Iraq's consciousness when these issues were introduced."
http://live.huffingtonpost.com/r/archive/segment/did-america-create-sectarian-divide%3F/51474c0402a760656300032f

Anynama141

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You are just splitting hairs. There was no culture of suicide bombing in Afghanistan before the US invasion as you implies. Therefore your criticism of Pape on this was uninformed and misguided.

I said that Pape ignores suicide bombings that do not fit his hypothesis. He ignores the suicide bombings in Afghanistan that happened before the US invasion. This is not splitting hairs - it means that the roots of the culture of suicide bombing pre-date the invasion.

So perhaps it is Pape and your good self who are uninformed or misguided?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not sure which you need the citation for but here is information on the US formenting sectarian war in Iraq
http://truth-out.org/news/item/13122-how-petraeus-quietly-stoked-the-fires-of-sectarian-war-without-getting-burned

And here is information regarding the lack of sectarian troubles in Iraq before the US occupation.

Thanks for the links. It's one man's opinion, but if you listen to the piece you linked, Raed Jarrer actually blames the Iraqi ruling council for causing the sectarian divide.

The second piece you link starts thusly:

In April 2004, the US-supported Iraqi Civil Defense Corps units, recruited from Sunni communities, collapsed in the face of insurgent offensive, shrinking overnight by more than 50 percent - including 82 percent of the troops in the Sunni stronghold of western Iraq. The US military and the Bush administration suddenly realized that they could not rely on the Sunni troops and police to fight the Sunni insurgency.

So the Sunni insurgency which devastated Iraqi civilians was already well underway at the start of this tale? I would suggest that it was the Sunni insurgency that was responsible for most of the sectarian bloodshed; of course this would not have happened under Saddam's regime, so to that extent you can blame the US and company for its existence, but it is also entirely possible that this would have happened anyway if Saddam's regime came to a 'natural' end given the way that Saddam favoured Sunnis.

Either way, it seems a stretch to suggest that they deliberately set the country at war with itself as - I have pointed out - that made the country virtually ungovernable and totally destroyed the idea that you can just rock up and 'install' democracy wherever you like by force of arms.

Anynama141

Another suicide bombing in Afghanistan - nine children dead. I wonder why it doesn't seem to bother the Islamic extremists that by far the greatest victims of Islamic terror are innocent Muslims.

A suicide bomber has killed at least nine children and a policeman in eastern Afghanistan, police say.

The attacker, who was on a motorcycle, struck at a market in Samkani district near the Pakistan border. At least 15 other people were injured.

Local officials said a passing military patrol was the target and coalition soldiers were among casualties.

The Nato-led Isaf force had no word on casualties, but said it is investigating the attack.

The police chief in in Paktia province, where the attack happened, said the bomber detonated his explosives at midday just as a local school was letting pupils out for lunch.

Good job, bomber. 72 virgins for you.

BloodBath

A drop in the ocean compared to how many the Yanks have killed.

Anynama141

BloodBath wrote: »

A drop in the ocean compared to how many the Yanks have killed.

Well that's ok then...?

BloodBath

I'm not saying it's ok but when you throw around terms like "Islamic terror" you should realise it's nothing compared to American terror.

Anynama141

BloodBath wrote: »

I'm not saying it's ok but when you throw around terms like "Islamic terror" you should realise it's nothing compared to American terror.

It depends, I guess. How many were killed by the Americans in Iraq, and how many were killed by Islamic insurgents? In Afghanistan?

I'm not a fan of US foreign policy, but it's rare that they set out to murder civilians.

Royal Irish

Anynama141 wrote: »

It depends, I guess. How many were killed by the Americans in Iraq, and how many were killed by Islamic insurgents? In Afghanistan?

I'm not a fan of US foreign policy, but it's rare that they set out to murder civilians.

According to the Afghan Human Rights Commission the Taliban account for 80% of civilian casualties in Afghanistan.

Brown Bomber

Anynama141 wrote: »

Another suicide bombing in Afghanistan - nine children dead. I wonder why it doesn't seem to bother the Islamic extremists that by far the greatest victims of Islamic terror are innocent Muslims.

Good job, bomber. 72 virgins for you.

"Islamic Extremists"?

That article makes no mention of the bomber being an "Islamic extremist". How do you know what his/her motivation was???

What your knee-jerk assumption does do is illuminate why you wrongly reject Dr Pape's work. Let's face it it's laughable you (or anyone else) calling Pape "misinformed" on suicide bombing when a) Your opinion is based on assumptions such as the above and your false assumptions that there were suicide bombings in Afghanistsan pre-invasion and b) Dr Pape has dedicated a large portion of his academic career to researching and analysing sucide bombings and bombers.

Anynama141

Brown Bomber wrote: »

"Islamic Extremists"?

That article makes no mention of the bomber being an "Islamic extremist". How do you know what his/her motivation was???

If the bomber was sent by the Taleban, as they nearly all are, then it was an attack by Islamic extremists.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What your knee-jerk assumption does do is illuminate why you wrongly reject Dr Pape's work. Let's face it it's laughable you (or anyone else) calling Pape "misinformed" on suicide bombing when a) Your opinion is based on assumptions such as the above and your false assumptions that there were suicide bombings in Afghanistsan pre-invasion and b) Dr Pape has dedicated a large portion of his academic career to researching and analysing sucide bombings and bombers.

Uh...you yourself provided an example of a suicide attack in Afghanistan that pre-dated the US invasion, rather sinking this line of argument below the waterline.

I know that you are on a one-man crusade to prove that there's no such thing as Islamic terror etc., but you realise that this makes you as much of a propagandist as the nutters who see no wrong in any act by the Israelis? I think you are sacrificing wider acceptance of your points by adopting far too extreme a position, and I think it seriously undermines what is quite a worthwhile effort on your part.

Brown Bomber

Anynama141 wrote: »

If the bomber was sent by the Taleban, as they nearly all are, then it was an attack by Islamic extremists.

You are missing a trick here. If you are an Afghan, or more accurately a Pashtun and you want to resist a foreign invasion by force -- both a moral right and a right under International Law -- then you pick up your rifle and join the Taleban. There is no other alternative available. It doesn't necessarily mean you are overtly religious or even religious at all.

Using your logic of: the higher the level of Islamic fundamentalism = the greater the frequency of suicide bombings then it must surely follow that the current generation of Afghan resistance fighters are more religious than the Mujahadeen of the 80's.

Anynama141 wrote: »

I Uh...you yourself provided an example of a suicide attack in Afghanistan that pre-dated the US invasion, rather sinking this line of argument below the waterline.

By that logic Sweden has a culture of sucide bombings from it's solitary attack; though it does not.

If I am not mistaken the solitary attack you were referring to was not a suicide bombing in the traditional sense but moreso a political assasination of a political rival. It wasn't a bloke in a car but operatives posing as journalists with a bomb in their camera.

Anynama141 wrote: »

II know that you are on a one-man crusade to prove that there's no such thing as Islamic terror etc., but you realise that this makes you as much of a propagandist as the nutters who see no wrong in any act by the Israelis? I think you are sacrificing wider acceptance of your points by adopting far too extreme a position, and I think it seriously undermines what is quite a worthwhile effort on your part.

I am very well aware of the existence of Islamic terror. It is one of the scourges of our time. However, lumping any and all resistance to barbaric imperialism only contributes to the circle of violence and the "us" and "them" mentality that empowers the lunatics on both sides who try to bring to realisation the "clash of civilisations".

Penn

Warning to all to quit making the discussion personal and to discuss the topic at hand civilly or not at all.

silentrust

Anynama141 wrote: »

Are we astonished that the British secret services are interacting with people in the Muslim fundamentalist world, despite the fact that the authorities publicly acknowledge that this is what is happening?

Who exactly should they be trying to recruit/turn/spy on - the normal moderate Muslims?

You're right - is this sort of thing really so surprising? :-)

Anynama141

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I am very well aware of the existence of Islamic terror. It is one of the scourges of our time. However, lumping any and all resistance to barbaric imperialism only contributes to the circle of violence and the "us" and "them" mentality that empowers the lunatics on both sides who try to bring to realisation the "clash of civilisations".

The problem seems to me that most of the 'resistance' seems to involve killing innocent Muslims in Muslim countries, including but not limited to children. And the terror attacks (which I would not characterise as resistance of an invasion) entails killing just about anyone that they can manage to in a non-Muslim country.

I can't really stand over either of these as a valid or humane tactic.

Brown Bomber

Anynama141 wrote: »

The problem seems to me that most of the 'resistance' seems to involve killing innocent Muslims in Muslim countries, including but not limited to children. And the terror attacks (which I would not characterise as resistance of an invasion) entails killing just about anyone that they can manage to in a non-Muslim country.

I can't really stand over either of these as a valid or humane tactic.

Take the subject of this thread and please don't confuse this with condoning the attack but he and his buddy targetted a solider. They could have easily killed many of the civilians in the area but chose not to.

Anyway, I looked into the suicide bombing you brought up and it was carried out by on-again-off-again-on-again US ally / warlord /drug trafficker/ anti-Soviet "freedom fighter (excuse the spelling) Gulbadyn Hekmatyar. He is actually part of the current Afghan government. This attack certainly doesn't fit the profile of they did it because they are very, very Muslim.

Brown Bomber

Did MI5 help Lee Rigby killer escape Kenyan jail before he murdered soldier? MPs probe claims Adebolajo was sprung free after he was arrested for trying to join terror group

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638314/Did-MI5-help-Lee-Rigby-killer-escape-Kenyan-jail-murdered-soldier-MPs-probe-claims-Adebolajo-sprung-free-arrested-trying-join-terror-group.html#ixzz32kJ0G99H
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Sober Too

If he`s indeed correct in his astonishing statement , Chris Spivey claims the two MIchaels are living freely , one in London the other in Jamaica , oh I know couldn`t make it up territory !

He ( Spivey ) claims to recently experience helicopters hovering above his house, for hours at a time.Check his site out while its still there I guess !!

chrisspivey.org