Sallins Loop

n0brain3r

Just wondering if something different was going on today. Twice passenger services entered the loop and where passed by a following train. Until today I've only ever seen freight, PW and track machines use the loop. Has something changed or it regular occurrence at Sallins?

Thanks,
nb

foggy_lad

n0brain3r wrote: »

Just wondering if something different was going on today. Twice passenger services entered the loop and where passed by a following train. Until today I've only ever seen freight, PW and track machines use the loop. Has something changed or it regular occurrence at Sallins?

Thanks,
nb

Just Irish rail massaging the journey times so that the following train does not go over the magical ten minutes late! They often delay trains which are on time or early by up to 10-15 minutes to allow late trains overtake and prevent them being officially late which will only happen when they are late by more than ten minutes.

n0brain3r

That might of been it but to be fair I've worked overlooking the loop for nearly a year and its the first time I've seen passenger services use it.
The first 6 car 22000 was passed by a Cork service and the second 3 car passed by another 22000. So maybe intercity taking preference over commuter?

kc56

For some reason the slow line may not have been in use this evening. The 1810 used the fast line and departed Heuston after the 1815. A Hazelhatch, an up train was stopped on the fast line.

If the slow line was out of service, it might make sense to park a slow train in the Sallins loop to let faster services past.

Before the quad track came into operation, it wasn't unknown for a Kildare local to wait in the Sallins loop for a late running Cork service. The 0835, as it was then, often waited in Kildare for Cork trains but if the Cork was especially late, the Kildare would go ahead and wait at Sallins.

n0brain3r

The first was sometime before lunch and the last when I was heading home about 6. Just had a look at the twitter feed and a car struck a bridge between Newbridge and Kildare this evening so that may of had something to do with it too.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just Irish rail massaging the journey times so that the following train does not go over the magical ten minutes late! They often delay trains which are on time or early by up to 10-15 minutes to allow late trains overtake and prevent them being officially late which will only happen when they are late by more than ten minutes.

Is that the official reason Foggy or just your version?

flyingsnail

Was there passengers on them? Could they have been empty from Portlaoise that were being overtaken?

n0brain3r

Definitely passengers on the second at around 18:00 as it pulled out of the loop and stopped at the Station to disembark. The first I don't know as it was Dublin bound and I heard it enter the loop first wand when I looked could only see the last car.

When I saw the first I presumed it was a stock transfer it was only when I saw the second with passengers I thought it was a little unusual.

Just in relation to Foggys point I don't see what the issue is. If services are delayed and an opportunity exists to average out these delays over a number of trains does that not work out better for the passengers as a whole?

foggy_lad

n0brain3r wrote: »

Just in relation to Foggys point I don't see what the issue is. If services are delayed and an opportunity exists to average out these delays over a number of trains does that not work out better for the passengers as a whole?

Thw way I see it is that if a train from Portlaoise or Waterford is early or on time those passengers are happy campers and will use the train again but if they are delayed just so that the cork or westport train can make up time especially if it is just so that train is not declared late then how could they be happy? Two wrongs don't make a right. One train that is maybe 15minutes late is better than two that are 10minutes late.

bikeman1

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that all the time. That would be poor regulation of trains. Certain trains have higher priorty over others. A Cork train even if it is running late has priority over a stopping train.

Similarly a passenger train has priorty over an empty train or freight or railtour.

Foggy that would be like suggesting a DART that is on time at Howth Junction should be allowed to proceed ahead if the Enterprise is running 5 minutes late.

Good regulation usually holds the DART let the Beller fly in non stop and run the DART 3 or 4 late and let it try and make up time, rather than let the enterprise get stuck behind the DART from HJ.

To suggest that the signal man is, putting two up trains both running non stop up to Dublin if one is on time and the other is late running behind, into Sallins Loop to make the arrivals on time is total nonsense. Stopping trains yes, but not for express trains.

Even in the days of 071s and Mk2s on passengers that never happened with a Cork train catching up behind.

Unless you are in CTC Foggy you can't know the full reason for it.

Jamie2k9

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that all the time. That would be poor regulation of trains. Certain trains have higher priorty over others. A Cork train even if it is running late has priority over a stopping train.

Not always. It used to be the case more so but not as much now.

The bridge strike yesterday evening could of caused problems.

foggy_lad

bikeman1 wrote: »

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that all the time. That would be poor regulation of trains. Certain trains have higher priorty over others. A Cork train even if it is running late has priority over a stopping train.

Similarly a passenger train has priorty over an empty train or freight or railtour.

Foggy that would be like suggesting a DART that is on time at Howth Junction should be allowed to proceed ahead if the Enterprise is running 5 minutes late.

Good regulation usually holds the DART let the Beller fly in non stop and run the DART 3 or 4 late and let it try and make up time, rather than let the enterprise get stuck behind the DART from HJ.

To suggest that the signal man is, putting two up trains both running non stop up to Dublin if one is on time and the other is late running behind, into Sallins Loop to make the arrivals on time is total nonsense. Stopping trains yes, but not for express trains.

Even in the days of 071s and Mk2s on passengers that never happened with a Cork train catching up behind.

Unless you are in CTC Foggy you can't know the full reason for it.

I would suggest that if any train is going to be made late by holding it back for another train to pass then it should not be done ever! if the flagship services cant arrive to Sallins or Howth Junction, Malahide etc on time that is an indication of more serious issues that won't be sorted by delaying another train load of passengers just so that Irish Rail can say the train was "on time"(ten minutes late!). Passengers on intercity trains have no more right to be allowed ahead than those on commuter services and dart have the right to arrive on time or a bit early if the running of their service allows for that!

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Not always. It used to be the case more so but not as much now.

The bridge strike yesterday evening could of caused problems.

The bridge strike was late in the evening after 1900.

Most likely explanation was that the quad section was reduced to twin. Definitely the down slow was not in use for the 1810 and it was held to run after the 1815 to Westport. The train seen in the Sallins loop at 1800 could have been the train I say stopped at Hazelhatch on the fast up at 1825; this was most likely a stopping service.

n0brain3r

bikeman1 wrote: »

I'm afraid it's not as simple as that all the time. That would be poor regulation of trains. Certain trains have higher priorty over others. A Cork train even if it is running late has priority over a stopping train.

Similarly a passenger train has priorty over an empty train or freight or railtour.

Foggy that would be like suggesting a DART that is on time at Howth Junction should be allowed to proceed ahead if the Enterprise is running 5 minutes late.

Good regulation usually holds the DART let the Beller fly in non stop and run the DART 3 or 4 late and let it try and make up time, rather than let the enterprise get stuck behind the DART from HJ.
.

That is certainly what appeared to be happening yesterday the first I saw enter the loop was passed by a Cork service which I presume was non stop to Heuston. As kc56 says it seems most likely that the quad track was reduced to dual operation seems like IE where making the best of a bad situation.

LXFlyer

It sounds like perfectly sensible regulation to me. If there was a problem with the four track then Sallins would be the next available place for scheduled overtaking moves to take place.

Victor

Commuter services are normally prioritised over long distance services here and in the UK on the basis that the commuter is likely to be making the trip 10 times a week and will likely be very time dependent, while the long distance passenger is likely to be making the trip less often. Of course, this isn't always true and things can get a bit dogmatic at times, especially on the Enterprise, where it is stuck behind a DART for want of a minute or two. A balance should be struck based on the likely number of passengers on the train, how late it is, whether it can make up time and the effects on other services.

Notably, some countries use a secondary metric of number of minutes late total for the reporting period, which prevents the other metrics being abused too much.

DART gets higher priority over other commuter, which has higher priority over intercity / Enterprise, which has higher priority over freight and PW trains.

kc56

Victor wrote: »

Commuter services are normally prioritised over long distance services here and in the UK on the basis that the commuter is likely to be making the trip 10 times a week and will likely be very time dependent, while the long distance passenger is likely to be making the trip less often. Of course, this isn't always true and things can get a bit dogmatic at times, especially on the Enterprise, where it is stuck behind a DART for want of a minute or two. A balance should be struck based on the likely number of passengers on the train, how late it is, whether it can make up time and the effects on other services.

Notably, some countries use a secondary metric of number of minutes late total for the reporting period, which prevents the other metrics being abused too much.

DART gets higher priority over other commuter, which has higher priority over intercity / Enterprise, which has higher priority over freight and PW trains.

I think Heuston side, Cork trains have top priority followed by Intercity, Commuter, freight etc. So yesterday's sidelining of a commuter service is in keeping with this policy.

Jamie2k9

kc56 wrote: »

I think Heuston side, Cork trains have top priority followed by Intercity, Commuter, freight etc. So yesterday's sidelining of a commuter service is in keeping with this policy.

Cork used to but since the new timetable was introduced all intercity services are being treated equally and this business of Cork trains going ahead is very rare and if its late now 99% of the time that's it, none of this overtaking business. Commuter does suffer a little but its nothing major. For once the Heuston timetable is working very well. Long may it last.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

n0brain3r

Same thing this evening with southbound passenger services holding in the loop. I'm guessing this has something to do with the backlog from the fatality earlier?

Is it a big no no to run a service on the opposite line e.g. Allow the service holding to stop at the platform and switch the service following to the other track and back again after the station.

Victor

No, second incident with a maintenance machine.

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4869&p=116&n=237

Delays up to 80 minutes to services to and from Heuston

09 July 2013

Update: 16. 50hrs

Delays to services to and from Heuston up to 80mins remain due to a mechanical fault on a track maintenance machine.

This website will be updated as further information is made available.

Iarnród Éireann apologises for any inconvenience caused.

flyingsnail

n0brain3r wrote: »

Same thing this evening with southbound passenger services holding in the loop. I'm guessing this has something to do with the backlog from the fatality earlier?

Is it a big no no to run a service on the opposite line e.g. Allow the service holding to stop at the platform and switch the service following to the other track and back again after the station.

They are having some problems with a track machine that failed between Sallins and Newbridge and some track / signal fault at Cherryville Jctn

n0brain3r

Wow not a good day for rail passengers. Is running on the opposite line ever permitted to deal with blockages like this?

flyingsnail

n0brain3r wrote: »

Wow not a good day for rail passengers. Is running on the opposite line ever permitted to deal with blockages like this?

Yes you could set up single line working around the blockage, and as far as I know that is currently set up between Sallins and Newbridge. The trouble is that when that is set up you can only have one train between Sallins and Newbridge which leads to delays. Currently the delays are being compounded in both directions by the signalling problems at Cherryville.

n0brain3r

Am I right in thinking its a last resort as they seem to be very slow to implement it when something occurs.

What about two allowing trains headed in the same direction is passing on double track is it not workable with the number of slots available? E.g Too much conflicting traffic in the other direction.

With commuter traffic the bulk of traffic is one direction in the morning and the reverse in the evening. Could you have express services leap frog locals in this fashion? Or is it a timetabling/scheduling nightmare!

dazberry

n0brain3r wrote: »

Wow not a good day for rail passengers. Is running on the opposite line ever permitted to deal with blockages like this?

It happened on the DART before (late 80s, early 90s I'd guess) when the lines came down on the north bound line in Harmonstown. I was on the DART behind that lost power and was stranded after the depot in Fairview for a couple of hours. We were eventually taken off and put on (using little ladders) a south bound DART to Connolly which then ran back along the south bound line north towards Howth. South bound diesel trains in situ had been moved over and left waiting on the north bound line.

D.

Losty Dublin

n0brain3r wrote: »

Am I right in thinking its a last resort as they seem to be very slow to implement it when something occurs.

What about two allowing trains headed in the same direction is passing on double track is it not workable with the number of slots available? E.g Too much conflicting traffic in the other direction.

With commuter traffic the bulk of traffic is one direction in the morning and the reverse in the evening. Could you have express services leap frog locals in this fashion? Or is it a timetabling/scheduling nightmare!

Basically it's a nightmare to work with. The CTC signal men don't like to use "wrong way working" unless they absolutely have to as it means rejigging train paths at short notice and overriding pre programmed movements. While overriding a movement itself is simple it's dealing with the delays that every other train on the line will face over a few hours thats nasty; don't forget that the trains coming into Dublin are required to work services out of Dublin that evening again so these services will suffer as well.

Some sections are not signaled to work trains wrong way so slower speed limits will apply, hence more delays. Often the fault can be sorted quicker than the delays in working around a failed train so it's rarely resorted to.

Jamie2k9

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Basically it's a nightmare to work with. The CTC signal men don't like to use "wrong way working" unless they absolutely have to as it means rejigging train paths at short notice and overriding pre programmed movements. While overriding a movement itself is simple it's dealing with the delays that every other train on the line will face over a few hours thats nasty; don't forget that the trains coming into Dublin are required to work services out of Dublin that evening again so these services will suffer as well.

Some sections are not signaled to work trains wrong way so slower speed limits will apply, hence more delays. Often the fault can be sorted quicker than the delays in working around a failed train so it's rarely resorted to.

The Westport train could of easily pushed the machine to Kildare or bay platform in Newbridge at a very slow speed to clear the back log which is why I think it was a track problem and not a broken down machine.

Losty Dublin

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The Westport train could of easily pushed the machine to Kildare or bay platform in Newbridge at a very slow speed to clear the back log which is why I think it was a track problem and not a broken down machine.

Assuming that a railcar or a track machine are carrying around draw gear bars, a movement like that would take a couple of hours minimum just to get to Newbridge. Track vehicles can only be moved by other locos at a speed of 5MPH or by a DMU if authorised the Chief Infrastructure Engineer.

Shunting to Kildare would have been out of the question as the points for PW sidings are accessed from the Cork end only and both the platform and running line are required.

end of the road

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

yeah, sadly us peasants heading down to the work house in rosslare have to have our journeys made longer so that those only heading up the road can have full priority, giving us priority might achieve a few minutes less but on the rosslare line any minutes saved meaning less time traveling is a boness, proper scheduling and timetabling and their really would be no difference to the dart in giving intercity and regional services priority over it and commuter services

The_Wanderer

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

The Westport train could of easily pushed the machine to Kildare or bay platform in Newbridge at a very slow speed to clear the back log which is why I think it was a track problem and not a broken down machine.

So IE just placed a Tamper in Newbridge Bay platform for the fun of it? http://smu.gs/10NFsfq The afternoon delays started with the Tamper sitting down and were compounded by Signal Failures at Sallins and Cherryville.

If, and I'm not sure this is even permitted, the ICR was to push the failed tamper it would have needed staff from Portlaoise to attach the emergency towing coupler. Before assistance arrived at the scene, the tamper was able to move under its own power to Newbridge.

Jamie2k9

The_Wanderer wrote: »

So IE just placed a Tamper in Newbridge Bay platform for the fun of it? http://smu.gs/10NFsfq The afternoon delays started with the Tamper sitting down and were compounded by Signal Failures at Sallins and Cherryville.

If, and I'm not sure this is even permitted, the ICR was to push the failed tamper it would have needed staff from Portlaoise to attach the emergency towing coupler. Before assistance arrived at the scene, the tamper was able to move under its own power to Newbridge.

The train I was on said nothing about a signal failure at Sallins and when he tried to communicate the PA system was all interrupted. Have they no staff in Dublin to attach the towing coupler and even if it was promoted it would of being much faster, we are talking around 3 hours even getting a polite loco to the scene shouldn't take so long. IE didn't think to add the fact about signaling failure at Sallins either. I missed that in Newbrige as I was waiting for the toilet.

They should not of backed services from Heuston to Nass when they know full well they wouldn't of had the problem sorted out quickly as they know only to well if there is a failure between Heuston and Kildare it always takes at least 2h30-3h to clear it.

They had a few options to get loco's but yet it still to hours to do it. Just how many more train failures do we need to see before somebody with a brain actually has a plan to get things moving asap. They get plenty of practice but they never ever do things differently and get it sorted.

I know you work for them but we see this happening way to often, the signalling problems wouldn't of had major affects as the level of problems wouldn't of being overly major as they didn't happen until much lather.

Financial penalties are needed from the NTA as this is unacceptable, the CEO should have goals to meet and clearing failures within 60 minutes isn't a major ask and is easily possible.

Anyway yesterday was a costly day from refunds, food, buses, fuel and staff costs, they bank balance will be hit and just maybe they will wake up and have plans in place for failures. Then there is other transport costs that passengers will be compensated for such as taxi's. Complete joke and yesterday mornings incident has very little to do with it so don't use it as an excuse.

dowlingm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Financial penalties are needed from the NTA

What use is that? It merely adds to IE's deficit which the State will pay because it must, or to fares. It's not like it's coming out of a private shareholder's pocket, or god forbid any employee at IE whether management or staff?

SeanW

foggy_lad wrote: »

I would suggest that if any train is going to be made late by holding it back for another train to pass then it should not be done ever! if the flagship services cant arrive to Sallins or Howth Junction, Malahide etc on time that is an indication of more serious issues that won't be sorted by delaying another train load of passengers just so that Irish Rail can say the train was "on time"(ten minutes late!). Passengers on intercity trains have no more right to be allowed ahead than those on commuter services and dart have the right to arrive on time or a bit early if the running of their service allows for that!

Are you sure you've thought that through?

If you halt a stopping train for two minutes to allow an express past, that's all the time that's lost - two minutes. But if you let it go ahead and jam the line with its lower speed and frequent stopping pattern, the express behind will lose 10 minutes or more.

2 minutes? versus 10+ mabye 20 minutes? Plus the fact that the enterprise and Cork-Dublin services use locomotive arrangments that do not handle start-stop travel very well. Unfortunately when you have local trains and express trains sharing the same track, these are the trade-offs that inevitably result.

Victor

dowlingm wrote: »

What use is that? It merely adds to IE's deficit which the State will pay because it must, or to fares. It's not like it's coming out of a private shareholder's pocket, or god forbid any employee at IE whether management or staff?

There will be an accounting measure where the infrastructure arm will have to pay the operations arm for the delays caused by the signalling failure, points failure and the track machine breakdown.

Potentially one should have a bonus arrangement whereby staff and management are rewarded for good performance across a holistic range of measures - safety, punctuality/reliability, cleanliness, cost effectiveness, etc.