Tech Universities for all

Max Powers

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/cabinet-signs-off-on-plans-for-three-new-technological-universities-1.1410620

So WIT and Carlow to form one, Cork and Tralee IT, another with Dublin ITs. As usual, this is a hotch-potch step towards renaming all of them Tech Unis. Galway/Mayo failed for now, it wont be long though before they do get one, along with midlands. I suppose, once this is in place, a campaign for investment in 'Tech Uni SE' will need to start to get it up to proper Uni status, what we need.

Maybe im being a bit cynical, but we need to be able to attract business and compete with Unis for funding, I cant see this helping those goals much unless major changes accompany the name change

MOD WARNING:
This is not turning into another thrash the government thread, as such I request that people stay on topic.
I must also remind people to attack the post and not the poster! I will not remind people of this again!

Sully

Pessimism even with good news, chriky can we never be positive! Everything is a downer! We should be delighted with this news after years of campaigning and neglect by successive governments. The South East is on its knees and needs this welcome boost. Did you expect that it was just WIT that was getting upgraded? It was well known that Cork & Dublin would also be getting the approval, to be fair. I agree if there all upgraded it would be farcical but I was never thinking it would be just WIT being upgraded.

The government followed through on their commitment for a University for the South East, despite many repeatedly saying (especially on this forum and using it as a stick to poke me) they wouldn't. They quickly started the process to allow for a Tech University, got the colleges to submit applications and have now approved WIT. There in government just over two years and they have done more than Fianna Fail who have been in government for decades. Credit where credit is due, to be fair.

Yes Boss

A typically ignorant, political decision. Only in Ireland!:rolleyes:

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

Pessimism even with good news, chriky can we never be positive! Everything is a downer! We should be delighted with this news after years of campaigning and neglect by successive governments. The South East is on its knees and needs this welcome boost. Did you expect that it was just WIT that was getting upgraded? It was well known that Cork & Dublin would also be getting the approval, to be fair. I agree if there all upgraded it would be farcical but I was never thinking it would be just WIT being upgraded.

The government followed through on their commitment for a University for the South East, despite many repeatedly saying (especially on this forum and using it as a stick to poke me) they wouldn't. They quickly started the process to allow for a Tech University, got the colleges to submit applications and have now approved WIT. There in government just over two years and they have done more than Fianna Fail who have been in government for decades. Credit where credit is due, to be fair.

WRONG! The only way this was ever going to be a benefit for Waterford and the South East was if only Waterford/Carlow and possibly DIT got it. Now it is clear that every I.T. in the country will be able to become a technological uni. I said from the start that this would be a sham if other I.Ts got it and that is seemingly just what it is. Another sham for Waterford.

Why are you once again trying to score points for your party for what is obviously a total con job. I had high hopes for this and would have praised Fianna Gael if they gave us something that was relatively unique to Waterford and thus gave us an advantage over other locations but alas this is not to be. Also I thought we were suppose to keep politics out of these discussions?

mike65

Remember when WIT was proposed and Cork Regional Technical College screamed like a stuck pig? Suddenly it was ITs for everyone and thus rendered meaningless. An arms race based on nomenclature.

Sully

O Riain wrote: »

WRONG! The only way this was ever going to be a benefit for Waterford and the South East was if only Waterford/Carlow and possibly DIT got it. Now it is clear that every I.T. in the country will be able to become a technological uni. I said from the start that this would be a sham if other I.Ts got it and that is seemingly just what it is. Another sham for Waterford.

Why are you once again trying to score points for your party for what is obviously a total con job. I had high hopes for this and would have praised Fianna Gael if they gave us something that was relatively unique to Waterford and thus gave us an advantage over other locations but alas this is not to be. Also I thought we were suppose to keep politics out of these discussions?

Well that's your opinion, I think its great news for Waterford. The South East now has a University, as promised, and will now hopefully be able to attract more investment and jobs. It was well known from the offset that it wouldn't be just WIT being upgraded, there was a large interest since before the Tech Uni idea was tabled and it was well known that it was more than WIT getting the nod.

Its awful selfish to suggest only WIT and maybe one other college be given this status.

The South East has been crying out for a University and it has obtained it. I don't believe for one second it will impact us if other colleges become a Technological University, Carlow & WIT are serving the South East region and other regions can do their own thing.

I couldn't agree more that if every other IT is upgraded, it would be a farce. I 100% agree with that, but right now as it stands, its great news.

Max Powers

Sully wrote: »

Pessimism even with good news, chriky can we never be positive! Everything is a downer! We should be delighted with this news after years of campaigning and neglect by successive governments. The South East is on its knees and needs this welcome boost. Did you expect that it was just WIT that was getting upgraded? It was well known that Cork & Dublin would also be getting the approval, to be fair. I agree if there all upgraded it would be farcical but I was never thinking it would be just WIT being upgraded.

The government followed through on their commitment for a University for the South East, despite many repeatedly saying (especially on this forum and using it as a stick to poke me) they wouldn't. They quickly started the process to allow for a Tech University, got the colleges to submit applications and have now approved WIT. There in government just over two years and they have done more than Fianna Fail who have been in government for decades. Credit where credit is due, to be fair.

Sully,
to be fair, im very positive on this forum if you look at my posts, highlighting the things happening around the VT and private works. I do agree with you i when you say did i expect it just to be WIT, no I didnt but i didnt expect Cork to be brought in as well, DIT yes. What Tech Uni was about was differentiating us from the rest of the ITs, giving us some hope on the jobs/investment front, its clear that this is just the start, Cork tech uni now and soon it will be the midlands and west, give it a few years. its what happened the last time and will happen again. So to sum up, it is a small positive step, could have been a big one, opportunity lost.

O Riain

Sully wrote: »

Well that's your opinion, I think its great news for Waterford. The South East now has a University, as promised, and will now hopefully be able to attract more investment and jobs. It was well known from the offset that it wouldn't be just WIT being upgraded, there was a large interest since before the Tech Uni idea was tabled and it was well known that it was more than WIT getting the nod.

Its awful selfish to suggest only WIT and maybe one other college be given this status.

The South East has been crying out for a University and it has obtained it. I don't believe for one second it will impact us if other colleges become a Technological University, Carlow & WIT are serving the South East region and other regions can do their own thing.

I couldn't agree more that if every other IT is upgraded, it would be a farce. I 100% agree with that, but right now as it stands, its great news.

Great we have one. Dublin now has 4, Cork 2, Galway will have 2 and Limerick will have 2 leaving us once again at the very bottom of the pile.

Benimar

I'm sorry Sully, but we don't have a University, we have a Technological University, which is not the same thing.

This is just RTC to IT Mark II from what I can see. Once Galway/Mayo sort out the paperwork they will be 'upgraded' too meaning all the major catchment areas will be TUs instead of ITs. So where is the differentiation?

The difference of course being that the South West, West and Dublin will have actual Universities to go along with their TUs. The South East will not.

The news is positive in the sense that the application was successful, so we don't fall behind any further, but thats as far as it goes really.

Bards

Sully wrote: »

Pessimism even with good news, chriky can we never be positive! Everything is a downer! We should be delighted with this news after years of campaigning and neglect by successive governments. The South East is on its knees and needs this welcome boost. Did you expect that it was just WIT that was getting upgraded? It was well known that Cork & Dublin would also be getting the approval, to be fair. I agree if there all upgraded it would be farcical but I was never thinking it would be just WIT being upgraded.

The government followed through on their commitment for a University for the South East, despite many repeatedly saying (especially on this forum and using it as a stick to poke me) they wouldn't. They quickly started the process to allow for a Tech University, got the colleges to submit applications and have now approved WIT. There in government just over two years and they have done more than Fianna Fail who have been in government for decades. Credit where credit is due, to be fair.

I thought a mere mention of politics would get threadds moved to the Mega Thread or have things changed back to normal?

Cabaal

Bards wrote: »

I thought a mere mention of politics would get threadds moved to the Mega Thread or have things changed back to normal?

This is big news for Waterford so we decided to make an exception for now as it isn't strictly government.

However, this thread is not an open forum to bitch about the government. If you want to do that take it to the relevant forum.

If you want to discuss this further then PM Mods or C-Mods or take it to the feedback thread

letsbet

This is a long way from what people had hoped for and is virtually pointless. I wonder is the funding for WIT (or USE or whatever pointless renaming they will potentially go with) going to be increased significantly. We were told that we (WIT and Carlow) needed a certain percentage of staff with PhDs. Not sure if that matters anymore but if you want a proper University (this won't be anywhere near that) then you need to have a lot of active researchers.

That is difficult to do when the President (although I hate using that term as it is not appropriate for an IT) has pulled the funding for staff to undertake PhDs and the funding for researchers to travel to conferences. Also when asked how a lecturer was supposed to do a PhD when teaching 18 hours (or God knows how much after Haddington Road) and he said "you can't". The whole thing is a farce. There isn't even money in the college at the moment for ink for staff printers or for bulbs for overhead projectors. Simply renaming the college (along with most other places in Ireland) is not good news at all if it's simply that - a renaming. It might change the perception of some people but not very much imo.

Sully

Max Powers wrote: »

Sully,
to be fair, im very positive on this forum if you look at my posts, highlighting the things happening around the VT and private works. I do agree with you i when you say did i expect it just to be WIT, no I didnt but i didnt expect Cork to be brought in as well, DIT yes. What Tech Uni was about was differentiating us from the rest of the ITs, giving us some hope on the jobs/investment front, its clear that this is just the start, Cork tech uni now and soon it will be the midlands and west, give it a few years. its what happened the last time and will happen again. So to sum up, it is a small positive step, could have been a big one, opportunity lost.

There was talk for a while that WIT & Tralee were merging, but it was widely known when I was in college that Cork and Dublin would be looking for an upgrade. The University issue was something I was actively involved in for a while, but even lecturers spoke about it. I didn't know the others were applying.

Benimar wrote: »

I'm sorry Sully, but we don't have a University, we have a Technological University, which is not the same thing.

This is just RTC to IT Mark II from what I can see. Once Galway/Mayo sort out the paperwork they will be 'upgraded' too meaning all the major catchment areas will be TUs instead of ITs. So where is the differentiation?

The difference of course being that the South West, West and Dublin will have actual Universities to go along with their TUs. The South East will not.

The news is positive in the sense that the application was successful, so we don't fall behind any further, but thats as far as it goes really.

Nobody was being given the full blown University Status, that was said from day one. Instead it was agreed that a second type of University would be created and that certain colleges which were performing well enough would be upgraded.

I am not nor was I ever of the understanding that all ITs are or would be upgraded and that's not whats happening. If it was announced that they would be, I wouldn't be supporting it at all and would agree that its effectively an upgrade for everybody but nothing to help the region.

Bards wrote: »

I thought a mere mention of politics would get threadds moved to the Mega Thread or have things changed back to normal?

Well considering in most political threads individuals frequently quoted pre-election promises and said they weren't following through on them - I felt it was important to remind people that this was a pre-election promise followed through despite people saying they wouldn't do it. I have no intention or desire to get into another "My party is better than yours" debate or into a fully fledged political discussion. I think its fair to agree that referencing the promise is important when announcing the news.

You cant avoid a small bit of political referencing in this thread, and that has been acknowledged so far by the mods that this thread will have a limited political role but deserves its own thread due to the news being big. Limited being key and its hoped that we can discuss this civilly without getting into a "Who can make the best personal attack" competition.

Max Powers

i think nearly all of the posts on this indicate a slight degree of positivity but really we all see the name changes happening across the country in a few years. as one said, once GMIT sort out the paperwork, they will be on board too.
Next campaign is for a full and proper uni, we will need investment for that to happen, we will need to differntiate Tech Uni SE from the rest, with some investment, some luck we may get full Uni, what will the govt of that day probably do, yep, change all of them to Unis, just like it played out in the UK and here with RTC-IT-Tech Uni

Cabaal

Off-topic posts deleted,
The next person to start going off topic gets banned

letsbet

Sully wrote: »

The South East now has a University, as promised

Did they promise us a university or a technical university (ignoring that they didn't mention the upgrade of all the other places)? Unfortunately the attitude of "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is not apt here. Do we think that WIT will be a university with appropriate funding and teaching contracts commensurate with existing proper universities. If anyone thinks that that will happen in the current climate then they need their head examined.

Why does Waterford need a university? The country has too many universities at the moment. The idea is not great, diluting the advantages if being called a university. The only it that maybe deserve to be a university
is DIT.

Sully

letsbet wrote: »

Did they promise us a university or a technical university (ignoring that they didn't mention the upgrade of all the other places)? Unfortunately the attitude of "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is not apt here. Do we think that WIT will be a university with appropriate funding and teaching contracts commensurate with existing proper universities. If anyone thinks that that will happen in the current climate then they need their head examined.

They said University and they specified the South East because they were the only region campaigning for years. Labour's Ruairi Quinn said there would be no further Universities under his watch, as Education Minister, but he wanted to create a new type of University. Colleges were asked to apply, WIT & Carlow did. I think we expect to see the details of this plan today.

But before this government got elected, I was told that Cork & Dublin were looking for an upgrade (told by college lecturers, students, it was covered in college newspapers which I wrote for, mentioned by Students Union and its former presidents). When they got elected, the same story and it was expected they would be given it. Nobody was of the understanding (and I campaigned for it) that we would be on our own but that it was expected WIT and Tralee would be going for it and not Carlow.

I must reiterate: I do NOT support and will NOT support any further upgrading of Universities. I firmly believe this tier of universities should be for a very select few. Also, I will NOT support it if the funding isn't in place and improvements aren't put in place.

letsbet

Well it seems to me then that it's a bit of a stretch to say that they kept their election promise.

Sully

letsbet wrote: »

Well it seems to me then that it's a bit of a stretch to say that they kept their election promise.

It was said pre-election it would be a University. Now sadly, its not a fully fledged University and when it was inserted into the programme for government I immediately questioned it (if you dig back, you will see from my posts two years ago that I asked - my involvement in politics was well known before the GE) but was assured that it would benefit WIT.

So I remained hopeful and I was worried that Labour may derail our chances of getting any upgrade. As had been pointed out, it went quiet for a period while the colleges worked on their applications (this was widely known, but ignored during political attacks). But yeah, as long as its the select few and as long as it benefits the SE Region - I'm game.

hardybuck

I'm going to ask the obvious question here - what's different? Outside of Carlow and Waterford pooling resources, is this just a change of the sign on the door in real terms?

As we an open economy and trying to attract international investors, I feel that something like Tech Universities popping up everywhere will confuse them.

I'm also in agreement with views exchanges about the possibly diluting the status of existing Universities by this move.

Sully

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm going to ask the obvious question here - what's different? Outside of Carlow and Waterford pooling resources, is this just a change of the sign on the door in real terms?

As we an open economy and trying to attract international investors, I feel that something like Tech Universities popping up everywhere will confuse them.

I don't think we know the full spec yet. I *think* that's what is being announced today. It would have to be more than a name change for the colleges to be interested and for people in the regions (especially the South East) to support.

hardybuck

Sully wrote: »

I don't think we know the full spec yet. I *think* that's what is being announced today. It would have to be more than a name change for the colleges to be interested and for people in the regions (especially the South East) to support.

I think if IT officials were offered the chance to change their name to a University without needing to make any significant change they'd be delighted!

letsbet

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm going to ask the obvious question here - what's different? Outside of Carlow and Waterford pooling resources, is this just a change of the sign on the door in real terms?

The main objective of the government is to have less colleges (rightly or wrongly). What they would get from this is is the merging of a few places and they hope that changing the name will make people happy to do so. One thing's for sure, we can't say that it's a wonderful day for the south east. We need to see all of the details. A lot of good courses will also potentially be lost from Waterford according to the plans that we've heard. It's also surprising some people high up in WIT said last week that "that whole Carlow thing is now off the table".

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I think the key difference between an IT and a University is research output as has been already mentioned. The funding gap for research between universities and ITs is vast. I have done PhD research in both an IT and in am currently in a university. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. In the IT I wasn't even provided with gloves (I'm a chemist). In the university I have access to resources and material that the IT could only dream of. I think that is the fundamental difference, you can change names all you want, but with the current fiscal situation the ITs are going to continue to lag behind the universities.

letsbet

Sully wrote: »

It was said pre-election it would be a University. Now sadly, its not a fully fledged University

This suggests then that they didn't keep their promise. Also, it's a technical university not a university. Thus, to say that the government are going to create a university in the south east (therefore keeping their promise) is not true and you are being mis-leading when you say that. The two are clearly not the same thing. Also, as you've stated above what was promised in pre-election and in the programme for government are two different things. So, to say "This was promised in the election and in the programme for government" is also incorrect.

mecco

A couple of points that seem to be getting lost in everything:

1) No-one has gotten anything yet. 3 groupings have been approved to go forward with an application. However, it is certainly good news as the South East application has cleared the first another major hurdle.

2) It's up to the South West grouping how they plan on showing they service a geographical/regional need that isn't catered by the long standing UCC that is across the road. But that is their issue to deal with, so let them at it.So long as the political process is equitable and transparent, it will avoid the fiasco that was the RTC to IT upgrades.

3) It's technological, not technical. (Sorry, i'm pedantic )

4) I have an issue with people calling it a new tier. As if it'll be below the existing universities by design. It'll be a university with a focus on technological areas. (Areas where WIT has proven to be strong already as one of the best Institutes of Technology, so that'll help the proposal.)

letsbet

Technological indeed, my bad! The point about clearing the first hurdle is a good one. If the requirement for PhDs etc is still in place then we're back at the old chicken and egg situation:

• You need to have a certain percentage of staff with PhDs.
• Then you can become a "university" and have more funding and time to do research.
• Can we have time and funding now to get the PhDs?
• Ah, no.

It reminds me of the way the ICC attempt to keep Ireland from becoming a test-playing nation. And in the same way that Irish players then go to play for England as it's their only way to play test cricket we have lecturers leaving for universities as they get to do research and teach at a higher level (I know of two in WIT who have done so and two who are strongly considering it).

Sully

mecco wrote: »

1) No-one has gotten anything yet. 3 groupings have been approved to go forward with an application. However, it is certainly good news as the South East application has cleared the first major hurdle.

I was always of the understanding that they sent in their applications sometime ago and the government paved the way for these applications ages ago.

The article linked in the OP confirms that the applications have been accepted and that they are being created?

letsbet

Sully wrote: »

I was always of the understanding that they sent in their applications sometime ago and the government paved the way for these applications ages ago.

The article linked in the OP confirms that the applications have been accepted and that they are being created?

I suppose we'll have to wait for further details but the phrasing would suggest that. However, if so, you'd wonder why they ignored the criteria that they set out. Look forward to hearing the details later on.

hardybuck

mecco wrote: »

4) I have an issue with people calling it a new tier. As if it'll be below the existing universities by design. It'll be a university with a focus on technological areas. (Areas where WIT has proven to be strong already as one of the best Institutes of Technology, so that'll help the proposal.)

There are tiers. There are in every country. If the Technological (that is a mouthful) University is to focus on technological areas, is it to stop offering courses like Business Studies for example?

As an employer, I can say that a Commerce student from UCC and UCD have received a similar level of education during their time in both those colleges. While the quality of the individual will always be the most important factor at the end of the day, can I be sure he/she is getting the same level of degree coming out of a Business Degree in Tralee IT? Right now, the answer is no.

letsbet

Not sure if this is too much to post. If so, please delete but I have no link:

Minister Quinn sanctions major re-organisation of higher education

The Minister for Education and Skills, Ruairí Quinn T.D., has today announced a major re-organisation of the country’s higher education sectorthat includes provision for the creation of new Technological Universities.

This announcement follows recommendations made by the Higher Education Authority (HEA) to Minister Quinn. The HEA's report called for consolidation of the Institute of Technology (IT) sector; the creation of a small number of technological universities; the formation of regional clusters between universities and stronger ITs; implementation of recommendations to rationalise teacher education; as well as increased sustainability and capacity in the higher education system.

Minister Quinn said; "A new relationship between the state and the 39 publicly funded higher education institutes will be implemented. This will allow the system to respond in a more coherent way to national priorities set down by the government and provide graduates with the skills and qualifications that are essential for Ireland’s social and economic well-being.

“A new performance framework will be put in place to increase the transparency and accountability of institutions for delivery of agreed performance outcomes. Integral to this will be a process of strategic dialogue between the HEA and each higher education institution".

The Minister continued: "Following discussion with Government colleagues this week, my response to the HEA report formally sets out the Government's national priorities and its key objectives for the higher education system. I will be asking the HEA to report to me on an annual basis on the collective performance of the higher education system against these national priorities and objectives and a set of high level system indicators which will be finalised in the coming weeks. A legislative framework will be brought forward to enable the implementation of these very important processes."
Minister Quinn said this new focus on system and institutional performance will bring the funding and governance of Irish higher education into line with best practice internationally. “It marks a new era for students and other stakeholders of the system".
The Ministeris also instructing the HEA to begin to implement thereport's recommendations that will result in the consolidation of three groups ofinstitutes of technology to progress towards attaining Technological University status. The three are:

• The Dublin Institute of Technology, theInstitute of Technology Tallaght and the Institute of Technology, Blanchardstown
• The Cork Institute of Technology and the Institute of Technology, Tralee
• The Waterford Institute of Technology and Carlow Institute of Technology.

The next stage for each of the applications will be the preparation of a plan to meet the criteria for Technological University status. The plan must be based on a legally binding memorandum of understanding between each consortium of institutions describing their consolidation into a new single institution.
The plans will be evaluated by an independent expert international panel that will decide if the applicant can meet the agreed criteria in the proposed timetable and can proceed to the final stage.
Minister Quinn added that:“It is clear some institutes are not seeking to amalgamate with others and become Technological Universities. However, all institutions must concentrate on the core mission of developing close links with the local and regional business community and giving the best possible quality of education to their students, both from home and abroad.“
In addition, the Minister is asking the HEA to establish regional clusters of institutions in three identified regions, Dublin/Leinster, the South/South East and West/Mid/West. All seven universities and 14 ITs will be grouped as follows:

• South/South East - University College Cork, Cork IT, IT Tralee, Waterford IT and IT Carlow;
• West/Mid/North West - University of Limerick, Mary Immaculate College, Limerick IT, Galway-Mayo IT, IT Sligo, Letterkenny IT and NUI Galway (St Angela’s and Shannon College incorporated into NUI Galway);
• Dublin/Leinster Pillar I – University College Dublin, Trinity College Dublin, National College of Art and Design, Marino Institute of Education, Dun Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design and Technology;
• Dublin/Leinster Pillar II – Dublin Institute of Technology, IT Tallaght, IT Blanchardstown, Dublin City University (and incorporating linked colleges, National College of Ireland, Dundalk IT, NUI Maynooth, Athlone IT and Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland

Heads of institutions in these clusters will now develop regional plans, eliminating unnecessary duplication of provision and establishing clear pathways of transfer and progression for students in the region. Emerging alliances between universities and institutes of technology will be strengthened and promoted - developing critical mass and centres of excellence in undergraduate, postgraduate and research provision.
The re-configuration of higher education follows on from the National Strategy for Higher Education to 2030 (the Hunt report) that set out a series of objectives for a reformed system. The re-configuration also incorporates the rationalisation of initial teacher education recommended in a report published last year by the HEA and the recommendations of the review of creative arts provision in the Dublin area also published in 2012.

letsbet

It seems very much like we merge with carlow and then down the line there is potential for an "upgrade". The whole plan seems to focus on cost-cutting as far as I can see.

mecco

Sully wrote: »

I was always of the understanding that they sent in their applications sometime ago and the government paved the way for these applications ages ago.

The article linked in the OP confirms that the applications have been accepted and that they are being created?

You're right, it is further on then I thought. My confusion was from the fact they have a next step they must pass (To implement a legally binding plan to link with Carlow) as letsbet mentioned.

mecco

hardybuck wrote: »

There are tiers. There are in every country. If the Technological (that is a mouthful) University is to focus on technological areas, is it to stop offering courses like Business Studies for example?

As an employer, I can say that a Commerce student from UCC and UCD have received a similar level of education during their time in both those colleges. While the quality of the individual will always be the most important factor at the end of the day, can I be sure he/she is getting the same level of degree coming out of a Business Degree in Tralee IT? Right now, the answer is no.

Sure, I'd agree with all that. That's the practicality of the situation and the SE group will have to make sure they have quality courses. But the point I'm making is let's not sell the new institute as being less before we even start taking course quality into it.

As regards your other point, I'm simply guessing that if they delivered Business courses etc as an Institute of Technology, they would continue to do so as a University of Technology.

hardybuck

mecco wrote: »

Sure, I'd agree with all that. That's the practicality of the situation and the SE group will have to make sure they have quality courses. But the point I'm making is let's not sell the new institute as being less before we even start taking course quality into it.

As regards your other point, I'm simply guessing that if they delivered Business courses etc as an Institute of Technology, they would continue to do so as a University of Technology.

Sure, and would imagine that the criteria for becoming a Technological University is lower as a result. If WIT and Carlow were to come up to University standard in the morning, they'd have a bit of work to do in my opinion. More to do with their course catalogue and postgraduate offerings as much as anything else. Becoming a Tech could allow them to gradually build their standard over time, and that could be a positive thing.

letsbet

The HEA were pushing for a merger between Cork IT / IT Tralee and Waterford IT / IT Carlow and it's not completely off the table it appears. At any rate we now go to stage 2 - where it seems it'll take a long time (if we ever get there) to meet the criteria. In the meantime, all that will happen is more consolidation in the system and you assume there'll be job losses at some point as why else would they want to merge and cut duplication as they put it.


From the HEA Report to the Minister:
In considering the cases of the Cork IT / IT Tralee and Waterford IT / IT Carlow expressions of interest, the HEA had regard to whether the strategic interest of the regions and the country would be better served by the creation of a single technological university from these two separate proposals. Combining all four institutes, there would be clear potential for a multi-campus technological university of scale. With approximately 23,000 students, current income of over €220 million, 2,500 academic, support and research staff, and research income of €37m, such an institution would certainly offer enhanced benefits to students, enterprise and communities in the South, and it would have greater potential to compete internationally.

However, based on institutional submissions and on HEA engagement with the institutions, it is clear that at present there is no appetite for such a proposal. Notwithstanding this, as the institutions engage with the process of meeting the technological university criteria, the option of a more co-ordinated approach up to and including a single institution should be kept live and reconsidered if it offers a realistic prospect of delivering a stronger institution.

Subject to this proviso, it is recommended that each of these two separate expressions of interest should now proceed to the next stage of the process for designation as a technological university as set out in the Landscape Document.

Meathlass

Both Carlow and Waterford ITs will have to merge first and sort out duplicating courses etc. Then they can apply as a single 'Waterford and Carlow Insitute of Technology' for Technological University status.

I can't see a merger happening for at least 2 years and then the new entity would need to operate on its own for at least 2 years to consolidation the partnership. Applying for TU status, application being reviewed and accredidation provided would easily take 2-3 years. But it's good that this first major hurdle has been crossed.

Max Powers

'Clusters'......i wonder where these clusters might lead to, where will that cluster will be based, ran from, budgets controlled from etc, with talk like this, WIT or TechUni SE will go the way WRH went, slow but consistent cuts and not a fair crack of the whip. Do they think the SE isnt a region in itself.

Maybe im being overly cynical and anything like i said is miles down the road, but that word doesnt bode well for the SE when any govt starts talking about it.

added by MP....a bit cynical and paranoid maybe..

Mr Tibbs

Just a thought its strange when Limerick were granted University status after a long campaign nearly as long as ours every other college did not achieve similar just like whats being proposed here in this wonderful news for this town (city). Hope I'm not banned for this.

Sully

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Just a thought its strange when Limerick were granted University status after a long campaign nearly as long as ours every other college did not achieve similar just like whats being proposed here in this wonderful news for this town (city). Hope I'm not banned for this.

Lol why would you be banned? For the town jibe? Irelands oldest City, it just didnt grow.

Its hard to understand what your saying - is it that when Limerick got upgraded that there wasn't a flood of other upgrades?

So your suggesting it may not happen here that a flood of applications will be granted?

Psychedelic

On the one hand it looks like good news, but I think we can safely write off any chance about ever having an actual university in Waterford.

If WIT is merged with Carlow IT there's no going back, and I wonder if the merger will actually be a negative thing. Instead of having a technological university across several WIT campuses, there will be the other campus up in Carlow, who will have to get a share of the funding, courses etc. Then again the merger could be a good thing, and if it works at TU level it might strengthen a case to be upgraded to full university status.

That whole clusters thing seems like just another indicator that the South East region is being slowly wiped out, so eventually we won't be able to lobby for things based on what the South East needs, because there will only be East, West/Midlands and South regions.

Us: "Waterford/South East needs X"
Government: "Well, X is already in the South Region" (in Cork)

Max Powers

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Just a thought its strange when Limerick were granted University status after a long campaign nearly as long as ours every other college did not achieve similar just like whats being proposed here in this wonderful news for this town (city). Hope I'm not banned for this.

what you're saying is that our achievement is downgraded by the fact that others are brought into the same even though we fought the fight, i agree 100%. Same happened with the RTC - IT campaign and yes as you point out, same is happening here probably.
Re: UL, Chuck Feeney primarily, JP and other rich Limerick people pumped millions into UL before it was UL making it look and feel like a Uni. No other Uni in Ireland has gotten such private investment, maybe UCD.

DeiseforLiam

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Just a thought its strange when Limerick were granted University status after a long campaign nearly as long as ours every other college did not achieve similar just like whats being proposed here in this wonderful news for this town (city). Hope I'm not banned for this.

UL and DCU were created at the same time AFAIR (late 80s?). They had been NIHEs which were institutes of higher education a level above the (then) RTCs.

Trotter

Does this move Waterford's economic cause forward in comparison to the other regions? No.

For me it's another example of name changing and reminds me of the RTC to IT farce. Until the political (sorry) will is there to provide Waterford with a leg up, we'll have to put up with these farcical 'everyone please celebrate' type announcements.

This region has the population density for a university of its own and there is no good reason why a solid functioning university could be set up. I don't believe the other regions need this like the SE does. I don't even believe DIT needs upgrading but I could be convinced on that one. Cork? No way.

Anyone with a pair of eyes can see that Waterford's advancement as a region is being blocked because we'll see pigs fly before resources are diverted from the other regions into ours as opposed to us being given goodies that everyone else gets too to make sure we gain no advantage.

The key here is advantage. This 'tech uni for most people in the audience' is an example of how Waterford/SE never gets the advantage over other regions.

And that my friends is a political policy and decision :eek: so I'll stop.

Advantage. We never ever get the advantage and Waterford will never see a university (a real one not a diet/light one) because it would annoy the other regions who apparently have the right people on speed dial.

letsbet

It's even worse than that as today's decision doesn't even come close to giving tech uni status. It just basically says that you can apply. In the meantime you have to merge and maybe in five years ye will qualify for tech uni status but we won't be giving ye any help in getting there. I'd be tempted to say that it all adds up to bad news rather than my earlier thought that it's just a lack of good news.

Nypd

To me it looks like a farce !!

The other regions mentioned for upgrades already have universities based in their areas.
It's another sad day for our belguired city.

KevIRL

My views on this are mixed, it is a plus to see the University issue progressing in some facet, however it does hark to some sort of sop akin to the WRTC > WIT move, swiftly followed by the rest of the institutions some years back.

Lightbulb Sun

Would not be an idea to try partner with UCC or something?

DKIT is trying to become a partner of DCU, therefore degrees from there will be a University accredited degree.

Sully

Psychedelic wrote: »

On the one hand it looks like good news, but I think we can safely write off any chance about ever having an actual university in Waterford.

If WIT is merged with Carlow IT there's no going back, and I wonder if the merger will actually be a negative thing. Instead of having a technological university across several WIT campuses, there will be the other campus up in Carlow, who will have to get a share of the funding, courses etc. Then again the merger could be a good thing, and if it works at TU level it might strengthen a case to be upgraded to full university status.

That whole clusters thing seems like just another indicator that the South East region is being slowly wiped out, so eventually we won't be able to lobby for things based on what the South East needs, because there will only be East, West/Midlands and South regions.

Us: "Waterford/South East needs X"
Government: "Well, X is already in the South Region" (in Cork)

I don't get you? We are not being put into clusters... We are merging with a college in the South East. That's two colleges in the South East merging for a University to the South East? We aren't being paired with Cork?

I'm probably missing something obvious in your post, sorry.

letsbet wrote: »

It's even worse than that as today's decision doesn't even come close to giving tech uni status. It just basically says that you can apply. In the meantime you have to merge and maybe in five years ye will qualify for tech uni status but we won't be giving ye any help in getting there. I'd be tempted to say that it all adds up to bad news rather than my earlier thought that it's just a lack of good news.

Heh? The application process was ages ago. Our application was granted and the process to become a Tech Uni is underway.

Trotter

Here's the big dividing question. Is a technical university equal in standing to UCC, DCU, UL, or NUIG?

If not, then there's nothing to see here because they are the other cities in the gateway strategy thats being rapidly flushed.