Three new "technological universities" to be created

nesf

Details: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/cabinet-signs-off-on-plans-for-three-new-technological-universities-1.1410620?utm_source=morning-digest&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=digests

Basically we're getting something being called a university in Waterford, Cork and Dublin, being made up of a partnership between several ITs. I'm really unsure what "technological university" is supposed to mean. I feel, quite cynically, the word university is in there solely to placate people in Waterford demanding a university and that we're not going to see something resembling a university being created (i.e. there tends to be a distinct lack of humanities and theoretical science courses in ITs). What I think we'll see is these partnerships being able to offer more full degree and Masters courses, perhaps much more specialised than the broader kinds of degrees offered in traditional universities.

But we'll see.

pablomakaveli

I know cit is already offering masters and even phd courses and besides not having any courses mainly in technological and business areas is more or less of a university standard when it comes to the courses it does offer.

Cody Pomeray

The technical University is a reasonably common European variety of University isn't it? Plenty of them in Germany and Austria, where they are Technical Universities or Science Universities (in our system, we just intend Technical to mean either).

I'm open to correction here but I don't think as many EU Governments are as precious about the distinction 'University' as we are in Ireland.

nesf

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I know cit is already offering masters and even phd courses and besides not having any courses mainly in technological and business areas is more or less of a university standard when it comes to the courses it does offer.

Yeah, I know for a fact that CIT has some very solid courses, mixed with some dross but it's the same with the Universities. I'm more curious about what the name change and presumably funding changes will bring.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The technical University is a reasonably common European variety of University isn't it? Plenty of them in Germany and Austria, where they are Technical Universities or Science Universities (in our system, we just intend Technical to mean either).

I'm open to correction here but I don't think as many EU Governments are as precious about the distinction 'University' as we are in Ireland.

Well, university and college are words that have lost all meaning really. UCC, NUIG and UCD are universities within a university which is fairly strange as a concept.

University in Ireland (not necessarily elsewhere!) is considered more prestigious than College as a term. That's the main reason we're getting Technical Universities and not a reuse of the term Technical Colleges. That other EU countries have things called Technical Universities isn't really relevant unless we're borrowing their model of education (which mightn't be a bad idea in some cases).

But don't think for a second there's any kind of egalitarianism amongst third level institutions in the EU in general, one need only look at the French École system to see this isn't true. They might throw the term University around but there's still plenty of elitism going on.

antoobrien

nesf wrote: »

Well, university and college are words that have lost all meaning really. UCC, NUIG and UCD are universities within a university which is fairly strange as a concept.

Not really. Berkeley is part of the wider University of California, rather than a university in its own right.

Cody Pomeray

nesf wrote: »

That other EU countries have things called Technical Universities isn't really relevant unless we're borrowing their model of education (which mightn't be a bad idea in some cases).

It is very relevant.

Lets face it, new industrial/ manufacturing investment in this country is almost inesvitably of a foreign nature. Ireland is competing with other EU countries for this investment, and so are Irish graduates. It makes sense that our graduates are not dismissed as coming from an institution below the equivalent of a Fachhochschule in Germany or Austria, or another form of technical university, which appears to be widespread in Europe.

nesf

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

It is very relevant.

Lets face it, new industrial/ manufacturing investment in this country is almost inesvitably of a foreign nature. Ireland is competing with other EU countries for this investment, and so are Irish graduates. It makes sense that our graduates are not dismissed as coming from an institution below the equivalent of a Fachhochschule in Germany or Austria, or another form of technical university, which appears to be widespread in Europe.

Changing the name of a third level institution doesn't change the level of graduate coming out of it. I do not think that foreign companies who are seriously considering Ireland as an option would be doing so little research as to not have some idea of the level of graduates coming out of relevant courses, be they in ITs or Universities.

Cody Pomeray

nesf wrote: »

Changing the name of a third level institution doesn't change the level of graduate coming out of it. I do not think that foreign companies who are seriously considering Ireland as an option would be doing so little research as to not have some idea of the level of graduates coming out of relevant courses, be they in ITs or Universities.

The campaign to change the name of TCD to Grafton Street Community College starts here.

The facebook page will say "it won't change the quality of the degree".

nesf

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The campaign to change the name of TCD to Grafton Street Community College starts here.

The facebook page will say "it won't change the quality of the degree".

Heh.

Perceptions would change, the level of the graduates wouldn't, at least initially. But, I sincerely hope that you don't think that if we grabbed the IT in the country with the most meagre academic standards and thrust it into the NUI or the University of Dublin as a college that academic standards would suddenly rise (I know you don't think this). The things that would make the standard rise would have that affect regardless of whether it was called an IT or a University.

Cody Pomeray

Yes I agree the name itself may only be a minor issue in substance for most employers, I don't think it's the major issue but it may be a minor factor when an employer is faced with 100 CVs.

It's also good for morale. All ITs are not equal, and I think it is fair to single out DIT, CIT and WIT in those respects, whilst also giving the likes of GMIT and LIT something to work towards.

nesf

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Yes I agree the name itself may only be a minor issue in substance for most employers, I don't think it's the major issue but it may be a minor factor when an employer is faced with 100 CVs.

It's also good for morale. All ITs are not equal, and I think it is fair to single out DIT, CIT and WIT in those respects, whilst also giving the likes of GMIT and LIT something to work towards.

Yeah but employers know which ITs are good for which areas. Similarly having a degree in a particular subject, it matters where you did that degree. Not all Universities are equal either, though they all have an area where they excel I think.

I don't really care about calling these new groupings technical universities. I think the name change is fairly pointless but meh, whatever, it's more political optics than practical. What I'm really interested in is what changes it will bring about. Will we see the former ITs branching into new areas because of this? Will we see specialisation similar to the what the NUI universities have done?

goose2005

So basically, education resources are to be spread even thinner to placate culchies.

nesf

goose2005 wrote: »

So basically, education resources are to be spread even thinner to placate culchies.

Nah, it's all a distraction so the Pale dwellers can have a fourth uni.

echo beach

goose2005 wrote: »

So basically, education resources are to be spread even thinner to placate culchies.

No they are being spread even thinner to placate proud mammies whose children HAVE to go to a university, regardless of their own interests or abilities.

It is all snobbery. Some for the best scientists in the world have degrees from MIT, an Institute of Technology. It has never felt the need to change its name and its graduates aren't going around with a chip on their shoulder because they didn't go to a 'proper' university.

DylanII

echo beach wrote: »

No they are being spread even thinner to placate proud mammies whose children HAVE to go to a university, regardless of their own interests or abilities.

It is all snobbery. Some for the best scientists in the world have degrees from MIT, an Institute of Technology. It has never felt the need to change its name and its graduates aren't going around with a chip on their shoulder because they didn't go to a 'proper' university.

A University in the USA is not the same thing as a University in the Ireland.

Cody Pomeray

echo beach wrote: »

MIT, an Institute of Technology. It has never felt the need to change its name and its graduates aren't going around with a chip on their shoulder because they didn't go to a 'proper' university.

MIT is a University. The nominal description or title of an institution doesn't itself create a University.

nesf

DylanII wrote: »

A University in the USA is not the same thing as a University in the Ireland.

If I remember correctly Colleges (generally speaking) are more prestigious than Universities there.

ardmacha

This is another form of grade inflation. The government is more interested in quantity than quality, judging by recent legislative proposals, the aim is to turn universities into RTCs rather than the other way around.

ucdperson

No doubt lecturers in this new "university" will be paid on the university lecturers scale, not the inflated IT one.

goose2005

nesf wrote: »

Nah, it's all a distraction so the Pale dwellers can have a fourth uni.

There already is one - Maynooth was in the Pale too

DylanII

goose2005 wrote: »

There already is one - Maynooth was in the Pale too

So whats the other one?

Maynooth, UCD and Trinity? I didn't think there was another one.

How so Joe

DylanII wrote: »

So whats the other one?

Maynooth, UCD and Trinity? I didn't think there was another one.

DCU, surely? That's definitely closer than Maynooth is. Not that I'm disputing that Maynooth is in the pale.

Cody Pomeray

that's come up more than once...everyone forgets DCU:pac:

DCU was itself controversial at the time, I heard today.

Godge

ucdperson wrote: »

No doubt lecturers in this new "university" will be paid on the university lecturers scale, not the inflated IT one.

Explain with links, please?

A university professor, if I recall properly earns around 140k. I don't think there are any academics in IoTs earning more than around 100k. I mightn't be exactly right but I am not far off.

DylanII

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

that's come up more than once...everyone forgets DCU:pac:

DCU was itself controversial at the time, I heard today.

I always forget DCU - I think I kind of lump it in with the ITs

nesf

Godge wrote: »

Explain with links, please?

A university professor, if I recall properly earns around 140k. I don't think there are any academics in IoTs earning more than around 100k. I mightn't be exactly right but I am not far off.

Professors on average don't earn that. Some professors can earn far more (professors in medicine earn 190k, they're on a different scale to everyone else) but it takes 8 years of service in this role to reach 140k (and this is only for older professors, not newly appointed ones that can't reach 140k). In most departments I know of, it's rather unusual to be appointed to a professorship with more than 8 years of working life left to you.

Professors are definitely well paid, no question about that. The issue is that they don't as a rule hit the top salary point in the scale, as opposed to say lecturers who generally will have time to do that. The other issue is that they only make up a small fraction of third level teaching staff so it's a bit pointless using them for comparison. It's better to compare lecturers and senior lecturers to their colleagues in the ITs on both salary and qualifications needed.

nesf

goose2005 wrote: »

There already is one - Maynooth was in the Pale too

donaghs

From reading the press, I still can't see why this change is happening?

Sure, people in those regions and institutions want "university" status for themselves. Any other reason?

amen

DCU was itself controversial at the time, I heard today

I always forget DCU - I think I kind of lump it in with the ITs

Why ?

Nearly all degrees are to 4 year honours level degrees.

Cody Pomeray

Well I don't know the ins and outs of it. I'm not denying DCU's present standing as a University. I just had lunch with two university staff one day and they were recalling how the decision to make a University of DCU was ridiculed as a stunt at the time, rightly in their opinion, because the degrees DCU were offering were instructive in nature, i.e. mainly offering technical programs designed to produce technicians, not scientists.

I'm not saying they were right, just that it seems it was a controversial decision. If anything, their opinion has been proved wrong. DCU has a very well established school of Law & Government in particular, which has arguably eclipsed its more technical degree programs.

So even if granting University status to DCU was a stunt, it was a stunt that may have had positive consequences.

Godge

nesf wrote: »

Professors on average don't earn that. Some professors can earn far more (professors in medicine earn 190k, they're on a different scale to everyone else) but it takes 8 years of service in this role to reach 140k (and this is only for older professors, not newly appointed ones that can't reach 140k). In most departments I know of, it's rather unusual to be appointed to a professorship with more than 8 years of working life left to you.

Professors are definitely well paid, no question about that. The issue is that they don't as a rule hit the top salary point in the scale, as opposed to say lecturers who generally will have time to do that. The other issue is that they only make up a small fraction of third level teaching staff so it's a bit pointless using them for comparison. It's better to compare lecturers and senior lecturers to their colleagues in the ITs on both salary and qualifications needed.

The 2010 Professor scale in UCD runs from €113,604 to €145,952 in six points (you reach the sixth point after five years service, not eight).

http://www.ucd.ie/hr/add/salary_scales/scales.htm

Professors take up about 10-15% of all university academic positions. According to this there were over 400 of them in 2007.

http://www.reviewbody.gov.ie/Documents/Report_No_42.pdf

According to this there were 3,429 other academics in the university sector at around the same time.

http://benchmarking.gov.ie/Documents/Benchmarking%2007.pdf


10-15% hardly represents a small fraction. I know of many professors appointed in their early 40s. It is beginning to manfiest itself as a problem as they are now blocking promotion prospects for those behind.

Let us look at the scales now. Link above shows UCD. Link below shows DIT (same as other IoTs as I understand, apart from Director and President posts).

http://www.dit.ie/hr/resourcing/leave/salary-scales/


Assistant Lecturer runs from 39,715 to 49,487 in DIT.
On the same comparison, it runs from 35,355 to 56,602 in UCD. Would prefer the UCD one myself.

Lecturer runs from 53,607 to 83,811 in DIT but from 50,807 to 81,452 in UCD. Not a huge amount of difference, DIT higher by a small amount but takes longer to get there.

But UCD have a post of senior lecturer that goes up to 94k, is this the same as sneior lecturer teaching in DIT which goes to 91k?

Above that we have the academic management grades in DIT, senior lecturer 2 and senior lecturer 3 which peak at 104,770. These are also below the max of Associate Professor of 110,058.

So, to conclude, the evidence suggests that salary scales are higher in UCD than in DIT across all grades apart from the Lecturer/College Lecturer grade where DIT is ahead by 2,350 but has a longer payscale.

nesf

Godge wrote: »

The 2010 Professor scale in UCD runs from €113,604 to €145,952 in six points (you reach the sixth point after five years service, not eight).

http://www.ucd.ie/hr/add/salary_scales/scales.htm

Professors take up about 10-15% of all university academic positions. According to this there were over 400 of them in 2007.

http://www.reviewbody.gov.ie/Documents/Report_No_42.pdf

According to this there were 3,429 other academics in the university sector at around the same time.

http://benchmarking.gov.ie/Documents/Benchmarking%2007.pdf


10-15% hardly represents a small fraction. I know of many professors appointed in their early 40s. It is beginning to manfiest itself as a problem as they are now blocking promotion prospects for those behind.

Let us look at the scales now. Link above shows UCD. Link below shows DIT (same as other IoTs as I understand, apart from Director and President posts).

http://www.dit.ie/hr/resourcing/leave/salary-scales/


Assistant Lecturer runs from 39,715 to 49,487 in DIT.
On the same comparison, it runs from 35,355 to 56,602 in UCD. Would prefer the UCD one myself.

Lecturer runs from 53,607 to 83,811 in DIT but from 50,807 to 81,452 in UCD. Not a huge amount of difference, DIT higher by a small amount but takes longer to get there.

But UCD have a post of senior lecturer that goes up to 94k, is this the same as sneior lecturer teaching in DIT which goes to 91k?

Above that we have the academic management grades in DIT, senior lecturer 2 and senior lecturer 3 which peak at 104,770. These are also below the max of Associate Professor of 110,058.

So, to conclude, the evidence suggests that salary scales are higher in UCD than in DIT across all grades apart from the Lecturer/College Lecturer grade where DIT is ahead by 2,350 but has a longer payscale.

1) Yes, I got the scale wrong, sorry.

2) In what universes is one tenth not a small fraction of something?

3) Are you comparing like with like? Are the same qualifications necessary to become a DIT lecturer, is a DIT lecturer expected to do as much research as a UCD lecturer? Etc.

Godge

nesf wrote: »

1) Yes, I got the scale wrong, sorry.

No problem

nesf wrote: »

2) In what universes is one tenth not a small fraction of something?

A fraction is a small part of something, less than the whole.

It would stand to reason that a small fraction is a part of a part. one-fifth of a half or something like that. Funnily enough, that is 10% which would support you. However, when you use an adjective in a mathematical sense, it becomes inaccurate and open to various interpretations. I can only go with mine.

As a rough guide, when I see the word "small fraction" I tend to associate it with a small percentage (less than 10%). I would then classify a tiny fraction as something in the range of 1 -3 %.

There is also a relativity factor. Obviously, if you have hundreds of grades of lecturer, 10-15% is a huge fraction. Where, you have 5-6 grades, in my opinion, you would want one grade to be substantially less than the others to justify describing it as a "small" fraction. When you look at the numbers, you find that there are 220 Associate Professors (less than the 400 Professors) and 663 Assitant/Junior/below the bar lecturers which suggests that there are a lot of "small" fractions making the use of the adjective questionable.

nesf wrote: »

3) Are you comparing like with like? Are the same qualifications necessary to become a DIT lecturer, is a DIT lecturer expected to do as much research as a UCD lecturer? Etc.

No, the qualifications and the roles are different.

There is a greater element of lecturing in a role in DIT and a lesser role of research. The qualifications are also different. A university would generally require a PhD or at the least, that the applicant be currently completing one. DIT would like that, but would insist on three years' real-life working experience.

These differences strike to the heart of the difference between a traditional university and a technological university. A traditional university is research-led while a technological university is research informed and focussed on innovation, industry interaction and applied research. Something like this:

http://www.dit.ie/hothouse/

or this

http://www.rubiconcentre.ie/index.php/about-us/the-centre/centre-overview

starlit

I thought was for all the IT's in munster specifically itt, cit and wit. Lit was mentioned too either with or instead of wit.

Godge

doovdela wrote: »

I thought was for all the IT's in munster specifically itt, cit and wit. Lit was mentioned too either with or instead of wit.

here is the press release from the Department

http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Press-Releases/2013-Press-Releases/PR-%202013-%2005-%2030.html


It mentions three


"The Minister is also instructing the HEA to begin to implement the report's recommendations that will result in the consolidation of three groups of institutes of technology to progress towards attaining Technological University status. The three are:
The Dublin Institute of Technology, the Institute of Technology Tallaght and the Institute of Technology, Blanchardstown
The Cork Institute of Technology and the Institute of Technology, Tralee
The Waterford Institute of Technology and Carlow Institute of Technology. "

T runner

The roots of all this are in the Bord Snip report. It ahs nothing to do with Waterford wanting to be a University etc. although id concede that RTCs wanting to become universities has contributed to the fall in standard of our qualifications here.

There have been several reports since including an international body recommending amalgamating Trinity and UCD to form an International class University along the lines of Copenhagen, with subsequent research capabilities. That was thrown out immediately.

Anyway, these colleges will form strategic "clusters", and in time would hope to become Technical Universities.

An Bords snips motivation was along the lines of 10 less Presidents, Financial controllers, Registrars salaries etc. equals a saving of 10 million per annum.

I saw a seminar where a BT futurologist claimed that predictions in the business world could now only be made 3 years in advance.

Companies will stop warehousing employees in expensive buildings (work from home or the Coff-ice.) Eventually they will stop hiring the jack of all trade employees and contract out individual pieces of work to the global market.
This means expertise will be all important which should mean that people's education will need to be very modular, with specific niche modules. The old system of several year degrees will fade.

I hope the new institutions will be dynamic enough for this change and even if they are, i hope the government invests any savings on a national Fibre broadband network so we can apply for this pieces of work on the world market.

MadsL

nesf wrote: »

Well, university and college are words that have lost all meaning really. UCC, NUIG and UCD are universities within a university which is fairly strange as a concept. .

Yes, I can see how strange you find the idea of Oxford and Cambridge "university" as a concept. After all, it has only been around since the 12th Century.

DylanII wrote: »

A University in the USA is not the same thing as a University in the Ireland.

Do explain, I am all ears.

Cody Pomeray

MadsL wrote: »

Yes, I can see how strange you find the idea of Oxford and Cambridge "university" as a concept.

They are comprised of small colleges within their Universities, often with specific focuses in the arts or sciences, or organised on gender lines. Not quite the same as a University within a University.

DylanII

MadsL wrote: »

Do explain, I am all ears.

In the USA a University is a collection of colleges. So there would be a School of Business Administration and a College of Engineering. The awards would be given by the university but the individual colleges are run separately.

In Europe a University is generally one school/college that is a public institution. There are no separate colleges, a university is no different to a college except that it offers higher level degrees (Phd)

[Jackass]

I think DIT would be worthy of a University status, especially when they are on their new campus. I think they've attempted to be recognised as one for quite some time.

Technological Universities are not something new or uncommon. Cal Tech probably being the best known one, often ranks ahead of the likes of Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard etc in university rankings (see here), regardless of what you may think of university rankings, at least shows the status of some of the tech universities.

Carlow and Waterford sounds like it's reaching a bit though. I don't know how well they would be able to resemble a university with current size and facilities. There's no mention of any investment going into the project to improve standards, so to just merge two ITs and call them a uni is a bit strange. Maybe even diminishes the accreditation in Ireland somewhat, as virtually all national institutions would now be a uni.

Presumably they would award their own accreditation and no longer have it awarded by HETAC once this is in place?

Cody Pomeray

[Jackass] wrote: »

I don't know how well they would be able to resemble a university with current size and facilities. There's no mention of any investment going into the project to improve standards,

Well that could be reflective of two things.

Firstly, the enhanced funding and resources that have been made available to the ITs over the years finally being acknowledged.

And secondly, the synergistic effect of collaboration and shared resources which is a de facto improvement in resources.

The latter is presuming that departments will be based at either campus, and not simply remain offering identical courses on both campuses. I might be wrong about that, but I'd hope they would be seeing this as an opportunity to re-acollacate their resources to maximise efficiency in this way.

MadsL

DylanII wrote: »

In the USA a University is a collection of colleges. So there would be a School of Business Administration and a College of Engineering. The awards would be given by the university but the individual colleges are run separately.

Separately? Lets take an example. http://facts.stanford.edu/administration/
Would appear to run as a single entity to me. I'm confused.

http://facts.stanford.edu/academics/

Seven "schools". Schools = Faculties? No?

Tzar Chasm

this all stems from a classic bit of idiotic stroke politics by Michael martin in 1997.

WRTC was established in 1970 along with all the other rtc's however by the 90's there was a vast difference between the level of courses being offered amongst these institutes, waterford wanted recognition of the strides it had made in the level and diversity of courses it offered, so a petition was made to upgradewaterford to the level of IT, putting on the same playing field as DIT, the only institute of that type in the country at the time, this also played into dit's plans to upgrade themselves to university status at some stage.

so the minister for education Niamh Breathnach granted WIT its current status, differentiating it from the rest of the rtc's and all was well with the world.

however, Cork rtc saw this and decided amongst themselves that they too deserved IT status, despite there being a university in cork and crtc not having the same depth of courses as waterford.

then there was a change in government, which landed a corkman at the helm in education, realizing that crtc could not justify being upgraded on its own merits, but also realizing that denying their petition would destroy his re election chances, Micky martin had the stroke idea of just upgrading all the rtc's, problem solved for him.

what this second upgrade did was destroy WIT's achievement, as the upgrade became a meaningless name change and we were lumped back into the rtc category, it also however had the unfortunate consequence of downgrading DIT into that same pool.

so now in a further slap to the face waterford is being told it can have a sort of University status, as long as it brings along its 'Ruprecht' Carlow

Godge

[Jackass] wrote: »

I think DIT would be worthy of a University status, especially when they are on their new campus. I think they've attempted to be recognised as one for quite some time.

Technological Universities are not something new or uncommon. Cal Tech probably being the best known one, often ranks ahead of the likes of Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard etc in university rankings (see here), regardless of what you may think of university rankings, at least shows the status of some of the tech universities.

Carlow and Waterford sounds like it's reaching a bit though. I don't know how well they would be able to resemble a university with current size and facilities. There's no mention of any investment going into the project to improve standards, so to just merge two ITs and call them a uni is a bit strange. Maybe even diminishes the accreditation in Ireland somewhat, as virtually all national institutions would now be a uni.

Presumably they would award their own accreditation and no longer have it awarded by HETAC once this is in place?

http://9thlevel.ie/wp-content/uploads/PR30-05-13_report_to_minister.pdf

It seems from Appendix A that you need to meet certain standards to become a technological university

ardmacha

The crooks have no interest in standards

In this report
However, these changes are not ends in themselves rather, they are key enablers to
ensure that the Irish higher education system can continue its long record of
contribution to Irish society and ensure that that record can continue even more
powerfully into the future.

this 6 weeks before they cut salaries according to what is expedient in the civil service without any reference to the needs of education whatsoever.

djpbarry

[Jackass] wrote: »

I think DIT would be worthy of a University status, especially when they are on their new campus. I think they've attempted to be recognised as one for quite some time.

There's actually quite a bit of opposition within DIT. Many of the staff would rather DIT set itself apart from the universities and focused on being a top-class IT.