anti 457

danotroy

ive seen an increasing number of these around on billboards in melbourne over the last forthnight and an increase in news paperarticles stating that too many 457's are being issued.

Its seems both the media and the construction industry are uniting on the front against the influx of temporary skilled workers?

I think this is a dangerous road to go down as the inherent racism in Australia could easily spread through the classes who perceive that they have been hit most.

catbear

Most aussies i know who give out about 457 think it's all about chinese workers. When i explain that i'm a 457 they're surprised and say things like "but you're one of us".
I've never experienced any "racism" for being Irish but instead have been told on two occasions "we need more of you, too many blacks getting in".

danotroy

catbear wrote: »

Most aussies i know who give out about 457 think it's all about chinese workers. When i explain that i'm a 457 they're surprised and say things like "but you're one of us".
I've never experienced any "racism" for being Irish but instead have been told on two occasions "we need more of you, too many blacks getting in".

I maybe should of articulated my point a bit more. From what i have read in the media they are stating the fact that the uk and ireland are second and third respectivly in the uptake of 457's but on the front page they had a picture of an indian man with a headline of no more 457's! or something to that effect. then you had brendan o connor claiming that 10,000's of 457s were rorted when in fact 0.58 per cent of 29,100 visas were in fact dishonest.

My point is this scare mongering can create an atmospehere of distruct towards 457 visa holders. An extreme case would be guys such as this guy banding all of us together as 457 free loading hippies.
<mod edit>No need for this video</snip>

danotroy

danotroy wrote: »

I maybe should of articulated my point a bit more. From what i have read in the media they are stating the fact that the uk and ireland are second and third respectivly in the uptake of 457's but on the front page they had a picture of an indian man with a headline of no more 457's! or something to that effect. then you had brendan o connor claiming that 10,000's of 457s were rorted when in fact 0.58 per cent of 29,100 visas were in fact dishonest.

My point is this scare mongering can create an atmospehere of distruct towards 457 visa holders. An extreme case would be guys such as this guy banding all of us together as 457 free loading hippies.

I acknowledge this is an extreme comparision, i am not on a 457 i just think its stange that externally the australian government is trying to get skilled workers to come but internally they are trying to drag the process down via the press and these adverts.

mandrake04

danotroy wrote: »

0.58 per cent of 29,100 visas were in fact dishonest.

Its 29,100 active sponsors not visas, and like it says that's the ones that have only been found guilty so far.

DIAC and the ATO are to cross data match the personal pay and tax records of temporary visa holders going back to 2011 to find out exactly how much and who exactly have been paying them.

They just haven't been caught yet.

danotroy

mandrake04 wrote: »

Its 29,100 active sponsors not visas, and like it says that's the ones that have only been found guilty so far.

DIAC and the ATO are to cross data match the personal pay and tax records of temporary visa holders going back to 2011 to find out exactly how much and who exactly have been paying them.

They just haven't been caught yet.

my mistake. but o connor did say "I was asked to sort of give an estimate, and that is my estimate,” Mr O'Connor told ABC radio

mandrake04

danotroy wrote: »

my mistake. but o connor did say "I was asked to sort of give an estimate, and that is my estimate,” Mr O'Connor told ABC radio

Yeah O'Connor made an estimate of 10,000 without consulting DIAC advisors, he was heavily criticised for making such a outrageous figure without having the proof. The next week the ATO and DIAC announced that they were cross matching the personal information of Temporary visa holders up to 3 years rather than the 90 days for everyone else.

DIAC denied it wasn't specifically targeting 457 visa holders but that it was looking at all temporary visa holders, this is a lie. O'Connor announced that figure was criticised and then is going to justify it by catching them out in the tax records thats something that takes time.

10,000 might be a bit OTT but its defnitely more than 0.58 %

danotroy

mandrake04 wrote: »

Yeah O'Connor made an estimate of 10,000 without consulting DIAC advisors, he was heavily criticised for making such a outrageous figure without having the proof. The next week the ATO and DIAC announced that they were cross matching the personal information of Temporary visa holders up to 3 years rather than the 90 days for everyone else.

DIAC denied it wasn't specifically targeting 457 visa holders but that it was looking at all temporary visa holders, this is a lie. O'Connor announced that figure was criticised and then is going to justify it by catching them out in the tax records thats something that takes time.

10,000 might be a bit OTT but its defnitely more than 0.58 %

i am not an expert on this matter. however i am in the opinion that scaremongering leads to more and more scaremongering which leads to people looking for a scape goat when they peercieve they are being shafted. I have been on the receiving end of a drunken rant from a islander on a train to the effect of “go home stop stealing our jobs” who insisted the Irish were the reason he couldn’t get a job. The more the media play the 457 card the more these incidents will occur.

hussey

Yeah it's election campaign time, what better way to get votes than to promise the people more jobs, more money and more future.
Damn those skilled workers!!

mandrake04

danotroy wrote: »

i am not an expert on this matter. however i am in the opinion that scaremongering leads to more and more scaremongering which leads to people looking for a scape goat when they peercieve they are being shafted. I have been on the receiving end of a drunken rant from a islander on a train to the effect of “go home stop stealing our jobs” who insisted the Irish were the reason he couldn’t get a job. The more the media play the 457 card the more these incidents will occur.

Everyone probably knows someone who did something a bit bodgy for a 457, example knowingly being paid less than the TSMIT, labourers being sponsored as something in a skilled occupation, paying a sham employer $6000 to nominate them etc.

It might be a bit of scaremongering alright but there is definitely a basis of truth there, no smoke without fire. Even the Libs now admit they support/will continue support the 457 reforms as sensible house keeping so you know the current system it's not exactly kosher.

jackbhoy

danotroy wrote: »

ive seen an increasing number of these around on billboards in melbourne over the last forthnight and an increase in news paperarticles stating that too many 457's are being issued.

Its seems both the media and the construction industry are uniting on the front against the influx of temporary skilled workers?

I think this is a dangerous road to go down as the inherent racism in Australia could easily spread through the classes who perceive that they have been hit most.

Tbh I think the message in that poster is fair enough i.e. help train young Aussies to fill skills shortage long term rather than import people from other side of the world.

I'm not on a 457 myself but on the rare occasion when I have heard criticism I always answer with: "457 people only contribute to your economy without taking anything out, that is, they work, pay tax and spend their earnings in Aussie businesses but have never received a cent from the Aussie taxpayer by way of dole, education support or healthcare etc"

No6

I think the bit that a lot of Aussies miss out on is the skilled bit, I have noticed in my time here that the same emphasis is not put on further education by Australians as we do in Ireland.

The Aussie

jackbhoy wrote: »

Tbh I think the message in that poster is fair enough i.e. help train young Aussies to fill skills shortage long term rather than import people from other side of the world.

Thats what i thought straight away, but some people look for the Racism card when its not there, or suits their agenda...
It also smacks of a CFMEU membership drive to be honest, with a lead up to a Federal Election they are trying to remind Labour where its roots are.

I actually see nothing wrong with it in a way, you always need to be training the next generation no matter what industry it is, the Trade system in Ireland has totally collapsed and in years to come when it picks up there is going to be a massive generation gap and knowledge drain (will be good for me in retirement though :pac:). If Ireland had more control over immigration and Unions that were not in bed with Employers, the total collapse of the Construction Industry would have been far more controlled and gradual,resulting in far less Irish Tradesmen forced to emigrate for a better life for themselves and their family.

CatFromHue

I know one of the guys I worked with was giving out about the lack of apprenticeships and that there was too much specialization in lesser qualifications instead i.e. instead of someone doing an apprenticeship as a fitter they'd do a a course in lathe work or something instead.

I genuinely have no idea if he was talking rubbish or not though

jackbhoy

CatFromHue wrote: »

I know one of the guys I worked with was giving out about the lack of apprenticeships and that there was too much specialization in lesser qualifications instead i.e. instead of someone doing an apprenticeship as a fitter they'd do a a course in lathe work or something instead.

I genuinely have no idea if he was talking rubbish or not though

Think about it though. Under the current system if you owned a construction business, had a ton of work on and needed resources, are you going to invest in 3-4 years of training up an apprentice or take on a 457? With the latter you have someone ready to go, who requires little or no training and (most tempting of all) you can negotiate hard on salary etc because you hold so much of bargaining power.

I think the 457 visa has an important role to play in resolving real skills shortages but the way it works currently, (in some sectors) it is actually contributing to long term skills shortages by making training of young workers such an unattractive proposition!

danotroy

Im just trying to highlight an issue I feel is rising here. Yes for sure train apprentices, but be sure not to start a war on 457 visa holders as many of them are English and Irish not just every Indian taxi driver you see.

catbear

The Aussie wrote: »

If Ireland had more control over immigration and Unions that were not in bed with Employers, the total collapse of the Construction Industry would have been far more controlled and gradual,resulting in far less Irish Tradesmen forced to emigrate for a better life for themselves and their family.

The property bubble was responsible for the collapse of the construction industry. At its height 15% of the Irish workforce worked directly in some form of construction with an additional 8% working in services to construction. If anything the property bubble created more Irish tradies that might have gone into other sectors otherwise.

Zambia

This is true tradesmen were seen as raking in the cash, hence several people migrated to that line of work.

I see nothing wrong with the poster. The state as a whole would prefer to see its youth engaged and heading to skilled work as opposed to having them on the dole and importing in foreign workers.

Cooperspale

catbear wrote: »

The property bubble was responsible for the collapse of the construction industry. At its height 15% of the Irish workforce worked directly in some form of construction with an additional 8% working in services to construction. If anything the property bubble created more Irish tradies that might have gone into other sectors otherwise.

Totally agree, I know 4 farmers who became builders overnight and there is no way they'd have gone into construction except for the celtic bubble

Slidey

I do see their point.

I work on a minesite as a fitter, a lot of us there are imports, be it Europe of NZ. As was pointed out the other day, there must be at the very least 150 fitters working on site and not one single apprentice. How they expect to replace the 457 imports when this mentality is in place is beyond me

mandrake04

jackbhoy wrote: »

Think about it though. Under the current system if you owned a construction business, had a ton of work on and needed resources, are you going to invest in 3-4 years of training up an apprentice or take on a 457? With the latter you have someone ready to go, who requires little or no training and (most tempting of all) you can negotiate hard on salary etc because you hold so much of bargaining power.

I think the 457 visa has an important role to play in resolving real skills shortages but the way it works currently, (in some sectors) it is actually contributing to long term skills shortages by making training of young workers such an unattractive proposition!

There's definitely a genuine need for 457 to quickly fill holes in "Skilled" occupations, but if you look beyond the mist the unions and government are not really targeting the Nurses, Doctors, Engineers, fitters, carpenters etc they are talking about jobs in lower skilled and unskilled, employers sponsoring friends/family for the sake of it, sponsoring people who are prepared to work for less money and conditions because there might be a chance of permanent residency at the end of it.

Even the unions are saying that they want the 28 day rule scrapped because it gives the employer to much control, they would rather see it scrapped and introduce a right of appeal for Australians who missed out on a job. Next they will want to break the employers biggest weapon.... link of 457 to PR.

mandrake04

danotroy wrote: »

but be sure not to start a war on 457 visa holders as many of them are English and Irish not just every Indian taxi driver you see.

Why not?

Why would English and Irish Taxi drivers deserve more than an Indian Taxi driver?

Would you say an Irish labourer [Insert dressed up skill here] is more deserving of a 457 than an Indian Doctor?

danotroy

catbear wrote: »

The property bubble was responsible for the collapse of the construction industry. At its height 15% of the Irish workforce worked directly in some form of construction with an additional 8% working in services to construction. If anything the property bubble created more Irish tradies that might have gone into other sectors otherwise.

I for sure can attest to this. Alot of my friends are now 28-29 in their final year of study for their first degree as when they finished school at 18 they went straight for apprenticeships, made some great money until they got laid off spent it all and went back to uni.

danotroy

mandrake04 wrote: »

Why not?

Why would English and Irish Taxi drivers deserve more than an Indian Taxi driver?

Would you say an Irish labourer [Insert dressed up skill here] is more deserving of a 457 than an Indian Doctor?

This is the exact point im making. If the media are going to go down the road of blaming the 457s for the lack of jobs a witch hunt may likely follow. I have seen in the melbourne papers a full spread to the effect of "457 scammers" with a picture of a few indian men on the cover and the text stated that indians were the biggest users/abusers of 457's. They also said irish and english were heavy users/abusers but the emphasis was on indians coming and taking our jobs.

And no I would definitely not say the Irish&English are more deserving to be here than any other person. I think I may have been wrong with the original poster calling for apprenticeships but the tone of the newspaper I saw the other week wasn’t too welcoming for those who weren’t English or irish.

AngryHippie

jackbhoy wrote: »

Think about it though. Under the current system if you owned a construction business, had a ton of work on and needed resources, are you going to invest in 3-4 years of training up an apprentice or take on a 457? With the latter you have someone ready to go, who requires little or no training and (most tempting of all) you can negotiate hard on salary etc because you hold so much of bargaining power.

I think the 457 visa has an important role to play in resolving real skills shortages but the way it works currently, (in some sectors) it is actually contributing to long term skills shortages by making training of young workers such an unattractive proposition!

Part of the problem comes from where the skills shortages are.

If you look at a typical mine site, (mining and related construction account for a large proportion of the skills shortage) Most work on a mine site involves high risk work. Apprentices, due to their age and their lack of experience, are a far higher risk on a mine site. Indeed some of the bizarre safety measures you will find in a typical SWMS on a mine have been put in place because of an apprentice or inexperienced worker a number of years ago. If it happens once, they presume they are exposed to it again, and they are forced by due diligence and duty of care to put measures in place to prevent recurrence. This extra measure of safety usually slows production down....resulting in an increased demand for skilled labor to complete a given project in a given time-frame.

The reality of the situation is that a high risk mine site is no place for an apprentice, they are too green and too gung-ho to avoid incidents and LTI's.

The Vocational Training system over here is quite good, but unfortunately, there is no regulated scheme to gradually increase exposure to risk. One day your plumbing in domestic houses, you apply for a job, complete your S11 and a month later you are in a high risk multi-hazard environment. No amount of induction or training can make this transition without someone getting carried away or a lapse in concentration. Then its down tools, investigate, re-assess and review the entire safety management plan. (which would be audited every three months in any case)

Its a tricky one, and unfortunately for the odd ill-informed aussie, its a situation entirely of their own making, and the 457 skilled visa is the best short-term solution to the problem.
A high proportion of these workers will take their skills overseas when things get quiet in any case, moving on to the next boom on the next continent that allows them. The ones that stay, will contribute to the economy & society, for the most part be grateful for the opportunities and will only add to the future skills pool for the next upturn in commodity prices.

Try telling them that !!!!:pac:

catbear

As it's election season and mining is waning 457 visas are an easy target, personally i don't take any of it seriously. I actually make a joke of it when people ask me am i staying long term, " i don't know, if my 457 goes i'll be deported". They hate when someone says that!

The Aussie

catbear wrote: »

The property bubble was responsible for the collapse of the construction industry. At its height 15% of the Irish workforce worked directly in some form of construction with an additional 8% working in services to construction. If anything the property bubble created more Irish tradies that might have gone into other sectors otherwise.

Yes, I remember the whole fantasy (in a good way:D),

You could not even stop at the service station for fuel without being offered a job, not the point I was making though.

catbear

I've reread your post Aussie and the only thing I can glean from it is that you want tighter immigration policies in Ireland. Ireland has always benefited from pooling its labour market with the UK and the EU to a lesser extent and I don't see any reason why that has to change. Emigrants can't be blamed for the mismanagement of Ireland during the septic tiger, if anything they were mostly late arrivals to the party but seem to take a disproportionate amount of the blame if listening to the Joe Duffy show is anything to go by.

But then again listening to Australian media where all refugees are criminals I can understand why see things the way you do.

The Aussie

danotroy wrote: »

I think I may have been wrong with the original poster calling for apprenticeships.

YES.

danotroy wrote: »

The tone of the newspaper I saw the other week wasn’t too welcoming for those who weren’t English or irish.

Was I like this one....



You seem to keep on pushing for the whole race thing, Why?

The Aussie

catbear wrote: »

I've reread your post Aussie and the only thing I can glean from it is that you want had tighter immigration policies in Ireland

That boat has long sailed, the point was if Ireland had control of its own border.

catbear

The Aussie wrote: »

That boat has long sailed, the point was if Ireland had control of its own border.

If Ireland remained isolated from Europe and the world you might not be an Aussie in Ireland.

The Aussie

catbear wrote: »

If Ireland remained isolated from Europe and the world you might not be an Aussie in Ireland.

Your right, the joys of having 3 Passports I suppose, I can blow anywhere the wind takes, might even end up in America yet with the Wife's job.

danotroy

The Aussie wrote: »

YES.



You seem to keep on pushing for the whole race thing, Why?

Because of the inherent racism in australia! it is in everywhere. even in the public sector council job i was in was rife with racism the whole department was white and would often make snide racist remarks. these were educated people! if you need a current example refer to this weekends footy action and fallout thereafter.

your typical bogan australia will see all the negative hype in the media about foreign workers when in fact the majority are irish english. much ado about nothing, just the racist media fueling a fire that nobody here seriously wants to put out .

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

Because of the inherent racism in australia! it is in everywhere. even in the public sector council job i was in was rife with racism the whole department was white and would often make snide racist remarks. these were educated people! if you need a current example refer to this weekends footy action and fallout thereafter.

your typical bogan australia will see all the negative hype in the media about foreign workers when in fact the majority are irish english. much ado about nothing, just the racist media fueling a fire that nobody here seriously wants to put out .

I think that's a pretty big call. That you think that there is inherent racism in Australia? You do realise what 'inherent' means don't you? Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I live in a very multicultural country and don't for a second believe that the views of a minority or the actions of individuals that happened to be reported and on occasion sensationalised in the media are reflective of most Australians day to day dealings in their communities.

I see more racism and gross generalisations in this forum than I see in my day to day life that's for sure.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I think that's a pretty big call. That you think that there is inherent racism in Australia? You do realise what 'inherent' means don't you? Of course you are entitled to your opinion but I live in a very multicultural country and don't for a second believe that the views of a minority or the actions of individuals that happened to be reported and on occasion sensationalised in the media are reflective of most Australians day to day dealings in their communities.

I see more racism and gross generalisations in this forum than I see in my day to day life that's for sure.

Will are you denying australia has a problem with racism?

*I would say ireland still has a problem with racism but it pales in comparison to the undercurrent of racism here.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

Will are you denying australia has a problem with racism?

Yes, I am denying that 'Australia' as in Australia the country has a problem with racism. Australia the country is I am guessing probably one of the most culturally and ethnically diverse countries in the world. There are of course racist individuals in this country (not all of them born here as evidenced by this board) but I think that they are far from a majority here and that Australia is not a country where racism is intrinsic or inborn or characteristic or an essential attribute as your use of the word inherent would suggest.

Australia is not an inherently racist country and it's offensive and ignorant for you to suggest as much.

Is there racism here in Australia...well yes, because as has been shown clearly here there are posters here in Australia that hold views and express opinions that could clearly be judged or interpreted as racist. That's aside from our home grown racists who express similar views.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Yes, I am denying that 'Australia' as in Australia the country has a problem with racism. Australia the country is I am guessing probably one of the most culturally and ethnically diverse countries in the world. There are of course racist individuals in this country (not all of them born here as evidenced by this board) but I think that they are far from a majority here and that Australia is not a country where racism is intrinsic or inborn or characteristic or an essential attribute as your use of the word inherent would suggest.

Australia is not an inherently racist country and it's offensive and ignorant for you to suggest as much.

Is there racism here in Australia...well yes, because as has been shown clearly here there are posters here in Australia that hold views and express opinions that could clearly be judged or interpreted as racist. That's aside from our home grown racists who express similar views.

ok. your claiming that australia is racist because of people on this forum?
I obey the laws of australia i have never made a racist remark whilst here and I get uneasy in the office when such behaviour is seen as common ive raised it with a colleague who told me its australia mateee. It is my opinion that australia has a problem with racism.

more than 1 in 3 respondents believed that ‘Australia is weakened by people of different ethnic origins sticking to their old
ways’; and
more than 1 in 3 respondents agreed with the statement that there were groups that did not belong in Australia


http://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/~/media/ProgramsandProjects/Publications/Attachments/Building%20on%20our%20strengths%20-%20full%20report%20v2.ashx

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

Will are you denying australia has a problem with racism?

*I would say ireland still has a problem with racism but it pales in comparison to the undercurrent of racism here.

Well having lived in Ireland for 10 years and having been back here in Aus for 2 I would have to disagree.

Your edit here doesn't reflect my experience at all.

danotroy

Must apologise for the edits working on a small screen its tough, I shall not edit again as it may look like I’m trying to sneak a point past you further up the page ! A point I was trying to make in my last post about the vic health study on racism is that while Australia may be a large culturally and ethically diverse place it doesn't mean everyone is accepted as equals.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

ok. your claiming that australia is racist because of people on this forum?

No, I am claiming that there are people who are on this forum who are expressing views that could be construed as racist.

I obey the laws of australia i have never made a racist remark whilst here

'Yes for sure train apprentices, but be sure not to start a war on 457 visa holders as many of them are English and Irish not just every Indian taxi driver you see.'

See if you said that in my office I would tell you to pull your head in.

and I get uneasy in the office when such behaviour is seen as common ive raised it with a colleague who told me its australia mateee. It is my opinion that australia has a problem with racism.

I'd have to agree with you. Because if you were in my office and you expressed many of the views you had here I would consider many of your generalisations and opinions as inherently racist.

more than 1 in 3 respondents believed that ‘Australia is weakened by people of different ethnic origins sticking to their old
ways’; and
more than 1 in 3 respondents agreed with the statement that there were groups that did not belong in Australia


http://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/~/media/ProgramsandProjects/Publications/Attachments/Building%20on%20our%20strengths%20-%20full%20report%20v2.ashx

Here's a study for you.

1 in 3 Irish people believe in leprechauns.



http://www.irishcentral.com/news/One-third-of-Irish-people-believe-in-leprechauns---do-you-118981264.html

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

'Yes for sure train apprentices, but be sure not to start a war on 457 visa holders as many of them are English and Irish not just every Indian taxi driver you see.'

See if you said that in my office I would tell you to pull your head in.


l[/url]

I wasn't saying this as if i said it. I was expressing the sentiment in the hearld sun if you look at my other posts. In short the hearld sun had a front page article on abuse of the 457 visa and had a picture of an indian chef or taxi driver on the front.

Instead of an irish labourer Skilled worked.

Will Heffernan

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I'd have to agree with you. Because if you were in my office and you expressed many of the views you had here I would consider many of your generalisations and opinions as inherently racist.]

Which I say to illustrate the fact...that even though you may 'say' things that could be construed as racist that you ARE in fact racist.

That as you pointed out:

more than 1 in 3 respondents believed that ‘Australia is weakened by people of different ethnic origins sticking to their old
ways’; and
more than 1 in 3 respondents agreed with the statement that there were groups that did not belong in Australia

I believe that people might 'say' that but I don't believe that 1 in 3 Australians are racists or that they want to see 'different ethnic groups' leave the country or that they truly believed that there was no place for them here.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Which I say to illustrate the fact...that even though you may 'say' things that could be construed as racist that you ARE in fact racist.





I believe that people might 'say' that but I don't believe that 1 in 3 Australians are racists or that they want to see 'different ethnic groups' leave the country or that they truly believed that there was no place for them here.

What would people gain by claiming that people dont belong here in a study by the health board?
i would of thought it would of been the opposite in that people would claim to be a better person in a study rather than a worse person.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

What would people gain by claiming that people dont belong here in a study by the health board?
i would of thought it would of been the opposite in that people would claim to be a better person in a study rather than a worse person.

What would 1 in 3 Irish people gain from claiming to believe in leprechauns?

I haven't looked at the details of the study but to answer your question off the top of my head...1. People find many inappropriate ways to express their dissatisfaction and displeasure....this could be one of those. 2. People often say things that they don't really mean. I could go on an on.

mandrake04

danotroy wrote: »

just the racist media fueling a fire that nobody here seriously wants to put out .

maybe you could share some of this racist media with us.

Most of the mainstream media seems to support 457 visas or at least critical of the government over them.

danotroy

mandrake04 wrote: »

maybe you could share some of this racist media with us.

Most of the mainstream media seems to support 457 visas or at least critical of the government over them.

I cannot find it online unfortunately. It was herald sun print media a week or so back.

Will you are comparing a government funded study against an Irish America newspaper fun article that's not even Apple and pears thats Apple and yachts.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

I cannot find it online unfortunately. It was herald sun print media a week or so back.

Will you are comparing a government funded study against an Irish America newspaper fun article that's not even Apple and pears thats Apple and yachts.

I am speaking generally.

We are going to have a change of government here in Australia I think.

We are talking about a country with a AAA+ international credit rating, a couple of decades of continual growth, a nation with relatively high wages and low taxes with very little 'real' unemployment when compared to other nations.

I was away for 10 years and having come home I can't believe how much 'many' Australians whinge, complain and moan...just like I see a lot of Irish here on this board and Irish people I meet day to day whinging and complaining about how crap it is they can't get ANOTHER job where for 3 months they turned a stop sign for a couple of grand a week.

1. People say stupid stuff.
2. People whinge about stupid things.

You were saying that Australia is inherently racist...that is garbage. It's not true.

I could start making all sorts of stupid generalisations about the Irish....about Irish backpackers and it would be equally garbage and idiotic as some of the views I've seen expressed here...like the one about Australia being an inherently racist country.

Will Heffernan

The point I wanted to make...that I didn't even get close to above was that...we have things relatively good here in Australia and yet we are likely to have a change of government because people think things should be better.

These are people who are doing well that think they should be doing better.

They survey people in the street and ask them a loaded question and then you get to use that to back up your argument that Australia is inherently racist.

I just don't buy it.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

The point I wanted to make...that I didn't even get close to above was that...we have things relatively good here in Australia and yet we are likely to have a change of government because people think things should be better.

These are people who are doing well that think they should be doing better.

They survey people in the street and ask them a loaded question and then you get to use that to back up your argument that Australia is inherently racist.

I just don't buy it.

You obviously don't think very much of your government if yoy think one of their health bodies would just stop people in the street with a loaded question to make it seem the country is loaded. I love this country and if you Gave me a horror story about a back packer I would believe it.
Your head is in the sand in respect of this racism. is alive and well here and by recent events not much has changed in twenty years in relation to sports.

Will Heffernan

danotroy wrote: »

You obviously don't think very much of your government if yoy think one of their health bodies would just stop people in the street with a loaded question to make it seem the country is loaded.

OK...if you want to go down this route how about this....how about I say that Ireland is an inherently racist country?

Then I point to Irish government statistics on the treatment on travellers in general and members of the traveller community specifically? I don't have those on hand but I bet I can rustle the stats up in no time at all. I also think I could more than likely find some 'surveys' on Irish peoples views on travellers?

Do you think that Ireland is an inherently racist country? Do you think that you can lump the whole country together and label Ireland as a country that is intrinsically and essentially a racist country?

I think a great deal of my country and it's system of government and I just find your categorisation of my country as 'inherently racist' ignorant and incredibly offensive.

What about if I a I love this country and if you Gave me a horror story about a back packer I would believe it.
Your head is in the sand in respect of this racism. is alive and well here and by recent events not much has changed in twenty years in relation to sports.

I think what you are saying is ridiculous and the points that you are making just make you look ignorant.

danotroy

Will Heffernan wrote: »

OK...if you want to go down this route how about this....how about I say that Ireland is an inherently racist country?

Then I point to Irish government statistics on the treatment on travellers in general and members of the traveller community specifically? I don't have those on hand but I bet I can rustle the stats up in no time at all. I also think I could more than likely find some 'surveys' on Irish peoples views on travellers?

Do you think that Ireland is an inherently racist country? Do you think that you can lump the whole country together and label Ireland as a country that is intrinsically and essentially a racist country?

I think a great deal of my country and it's system of government and I just find your categorisation of my country as 'inherently racist' ignorant and incredibly offensive.


I think what you are saying is ridiculous and the points that you are making just make you look ignorant.

You can say what yoy like its the internet. our treatment of travellers is appalling it reeks of not in my back yard attitude. Even recently in that poor woman's case in galway where she was told that she couldn't have an abortion as we are a catholic country. However our treatment of our asyulm seekers is much better than yours. Your gov. Is actively trying to annex the mainland, talk about racism winning votes.
if you are unwilling to even acknowledge that Australia has a race problem you are letting pride get in the way.If you want to go and talk about history I could highlight the stolen generation Pauline Hansons comments the recent attacks on Indian students cronulla riots. Inherent racism white Australia policy. The Chinese gold rush treatment.

The your one of us treatment the Irish get we are being over run by Asians your welcome here. You asked me did I know what inherently means I ask you the same thing. If anything the Irish were victims of inherent abuse.