were you encouraged to go to college in school and do you think you should have been?

steddyeddy

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

He must have had something interesting to say, because I don't believe for a second that somebody of the 4th year of a cell biology program doesn't know that. Not credible.

I'm not asking you to believe it to be honest.

Odysseus

No far from it, sure I didn't even pass my inter cert. I don't think anyone went to college from 2nd level in my class. A very small amount of us did eventually make it as mature students, but it had nothing to do with any support we got in second level.

rainbow kirby

steddyeddy wrote: »

This still happens every year and it is something that I would attriubute to unskilled teachers more than anything else. Again I would urge those with an interest in science to go back to college. We need more people with a real interest and not the people we're getting.

I did my bit, did 2 lab sciences and applied maths for LC, studied computer science in UCD, and work in scientific software! Full spectrum nerd here.

steddyeddy

Meritocracy Wins wrote: »

Never had a meeting with the career guidance teacher. I come a very poor background and was led to believe that college was not within my reach so I never bothered. My mother and father always said they couldn't afford me to go to college,yet my Dad spent his life in the pub. I did well in my leaving cert and once school was finished just went out and found a job. I worked in a job for years and hated it but thought that was the way of the world and just stuck it out.

It was the same story for most of my mates at the time. I look back now and wish that I had gone to college and had become a doctor. I would love to be a doctor. Any young people that get the chance, my advise is make the most of it.

Go back mate!

steddyeddy

rainbow kirby wrote: »

I did my bit, did 2 lab sciences and applied maths for LC, studied computer science in UCD, and work in scientific software! Full spectrum nerd here.

Fair play. Delighted to meet another scientist

Meritocracy Wins

steddyeddy wrote: »

Go back mate!

A bit long in the tooth and have real world responsibilities. I am however taking further education in the career I landed in. I am resigned to the fact it will be hard to get back into it but at least I'll be well qualified when the opportunity arises.

Dave0301

steddyeddy wrote: »

Just a simple question as to whether you were encouraged to go onto third level education by the teachers at your school. I know the answer is often dependent on socio economic factors so I wouldn’t blame yourself if you were never encouraged to go on to third level education. I was never encouraged to go onto third level education but I am here now where as some people were encouraged to go onto third level, got here and dropped out or scrapped by. Ithink it is commendable that teachers encourage their pupils to go onto third level but I think that the focus on third level ability is erroneously linkedinto socio economic groupings rather than academic ability.

I think we should personal focus more on innate academic ability rather than encourage all people to go onto third level. The quality of graduate has dropped in recent years and this is something we need to act on. I have met tons of fetac/mature/access course students who were told that “working class people don’t dream of college” and I have met my share of middle class kids who were told that “college is their destiny”. The former (especially mature students) are over represented as achievers and scorers of high grades and the latter have been generally good but someidiots have slipped through the nets.

Anyway back to the original question were you encouraged to go to college in school and do you think you should have been?

I think you may be laying too much emphasis on what influence the teacher may have. I would certainly hope that all teachers would equip students with the tools to succeed at third level, as well as actively encourage them to aim for a degree they want.

A major influence on a person's decision to attend college, is the support / or lack of support from their home environment. I know my mother always stressed the importance of gaining a degree as it was something she did not have, and always regretted. Conversely I know many of my peers went onto trades or manual labor, as it was the norm for their family.

Ficheall

steddyeddy wrote: »

Again I would urge those with an interest in science to go back to college. We need more people with a real interest and not the people we're getting.

What advice would you give someone who has an interest and a phd and still can't get a job? :P

steddyeddy

Dave0301 wrote: »

I think you may be laying too much emphasis on what influence the teacher may have. I would certainly hope that all teachers would equip students with the tools to succeed at third level, as well as actively encourage them to aim for a degree they want.

A major influence on a person's decision to attend college, is the support / or lack of support from their home environment. I know my mother always stressed the importance of gaining a degree as it was something she did not have, and always regretted. Conversely I know many of my peers went onto trades or manual labor, as it was the norm for their family.

But the norm doesn't mean that the person is best suited to something? UCD has a long line of people who call college the "norm" for their family but some of those drop out or fail. People have posted here that it wasn't considered the norm for them to go to college yet they made it and are doing brilliantly.

steddyeddy

Ficheall wrote: »

What advice would you give someone who has an interest and a phd and still can't get a job? :P

Travel! I will have to go to Germany to get work in all honesty. Depends what the PHd is in though?

Dave0301

steddyeddy wrote: »

But the norm doesn't mean that the person is best suited to something? UCD has a long line of people who call college the "norm" for their family but some of those drop out or fail. People have posted here that it wasn't considered the norm for them to go to college yet they made it and are doing brilliantly.

I don't disagree with that at all, and I was't trying to imply that I believe people should be restricted by immediate influences. I was making the point that college may not appear to be an option for some people due to family influences, more so than teachers encouraging them.

steddyeddy

Dave0301 wrote: »

I don't disagree with that at all, and I was't trying to imply that I believe people should be restricted by immediate influences. I was making the point that college may not appear to be an option for some people due to family influences, more so than teachers encouraging them.

Ah right I apologise for taking you up the wrong way (also sounded dirty)

Sugar Free

Heavily encouraged by the school who prided itself on having a high % of students go on to third level.

That said, I was motivated to go anyway. I saw how people from my parents generation who had no third level were much more limited in their options. My own parents drummed into me that jobs for life, which they have, were becoming non-existent so that spurred me on as well.

mariaalice

I am not a fan of the idea that somehow schools should make up for what is lacking in the home environment ( that does not mean I don't think schools could do some what better ).

I think it depends on the era you went to school in tbh, for example no subject teacher ever talked to us about going to university or what we would do after school why would they they saw there role as proving an academic education and that all, I doubt teacher ever disencoraged working class children from going to college why would they. Encouraging or discouraging pupils from going to college did not come in to it.

I went to the Tech in Tuam. Never heard mention of college once and I cant ever remember chatting to a guidance counsellor.
Will definately be encouraging my own kids to do 3rd level.

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

I am not a fan of the idea that somehow schools should make up for what is lacking in the home environment ( that does not mean I don't think schools could do some what better ).

I think it depends on the era you went to school in tbh, for example no subject teacher ever talked to us about going to university or what we would do after school why would they they saw there role as proving an academic education and that all, I doubt teacher ever disencoraged working class children from going to college why would they. Encouraging or discouraging pupils from going to college did not come in to it.

Unfortunatly as you see from the posts here many people were discouraged from taking up certain subjects or not encouraged to aspire in the first place.

mariaalice

steddyeddy wrote: »

Unfortunately as you see from the posts here many people were discouraged from taking up certain subjects or not encouraged to aspire in the first place.

Yes but you might be misinterpreting why this happened, my husband went to school in Wales and went to a Grammar school which he got in to by passing the 11+ which was an academic exam all 11 year olds did and if you passed you got in to the Grammar school and got an academic education, university was see as only for the very academic in that environment teachers often told pupils they weren't good enough to do something because in reality they weren't,.. for example if you wanted to do engineering you were expected to have a A at O Level Maths before you could do Maths or Science at A level, it was noting to do with being working class or any class there was not the climate of repeating or encouraging pupils either you could do it or not and that was the end of it!, parents never went near the school and teacher never contacted parents.
That what it was like in the school I went to as well it was a different time and a different environment.

Going to college is all about the home environment and was even more so in the past.

The Cool

In my school it was the norm, like someone else said the school prided itself in its third level rate, definitely more went on to college than didnt. This was at a decent school near Letterkenny - not my local. Strangely enough our career guidance teacher was hellbent on us going to uni in the UK, she spent most if our leaving cert cycle pushing UCAS applications. We had a few arguments because she gave very little time to CAO stuff and i refused to even consider UCAS- i come from a low income farming background and this was when uni in the RoI cost about €800 a year as opposed to £3000 in the Uk.
I always knew Id go to college and when i got there and saw what i could do with my arts degree i immediately set my sights on a masters. I was the first on both sides of my family to go to college bar my gran who was a primary teacher.
In contrast my cousin, 5 months younger than me, never had any ambitions to further herself nor was any such notion encouraged. There was a lot of talk of her dropping out after the junior cert but she ended up staying on, putting no effort into the leaving and going straight to work in spar.
Some people just have different ideals of whats important in life i guess. When i was 20 my gran (not the educated one) gave out to me because I had no job, car or boyfriend like my cousin did. I told her I had spent my savings on studying abroad and was now working my bum off to get into a masters. That was my norm, but not hers.

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

Yes but you might be misinterpreting why this happened, my husband went to school in Wales and went to a Grammar school which he got in to by passing the 11+ which was an academic exam all 11 year olds did and if you passed you got in to the Grammar school and got an academic education, university was see as only for the very academic in that environment teachers often told pupils they weren't good enough to do something because in reality they weren't,.. for example if you wanted to do engineering you were expected to have a A at O Level Maths before you could do Maths or Science at A level, it was noting to do with being working class or any class there was not the climate of repeating or encouraging pupils either you could do it or not and that was the end of it!, parents never went near the school and teacher never contacted parents.
That what it was like in the school I went to as well it was a different time and a different environment.

Going to college is all about the home environment and was even more so in the past.

But if someone is a natural scientist and shows an interest in school should they not be encouraged to go to school to study science? At the very least would it not be wrong to discourage him or her?

EDIT: mariaalice some posters said their teachers closed off many options for them. Is this not black and white?

mariaalice

steddyeddy wrote: »

But if someone is a natural scientist and shows an interest in school should they not be encouraged to go to school to study science? At the very least would it not be wrong to discourage him or her?

EDIT: mariaalice some posters said their teachers closed off many options for them. Is this not black and white?

They may well have but it is the interpretation that it was because the student came from a working class background, that I don't agree with.

spurious

steddyeddy wrote: »

EDIT: mariaalice some posters said their teachers closed off many options for them. Is this not black and white?

I'm sure some of ours this year think 'the teachers' stopped them from doing a second or third LC Science subject, when in fact the powers that be have made us run the school with ten less teachers to teach 140 extra pupils.

Something has to give and in this case, subjects are dropped. Has it a knock-on effect on the kids? Of course, but it's not the teachers doing it.

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

They may well have but it is the interpretation that it was because the student came from a working class background, that I don't agree with.

You have never heard any educator say that "working class people don't aspire to education"?

steddyeddy

spurious wrote: »

I'm sure some of ours this year think 'the teachers' stopped them from doing a second or third LC Science subject, when in fact the powers that be have made us run the school with ten less teachers to teach 140 extra pupils.

Something has to give and in this case, subjects are dropped. Has it a knock-on effect on the kids? Of course, but it's not the teachers doing it.

I'm not talking about genuine cutbacks which I completely understand and sympathise with. I am talking about an unwillingness to encourage kids to reach their potential. This was going on too during the celtic tiger.

spurious

I've spent my whole teaching career in one of the geographical areas which has the lowest participation in third-level. It was heart-breaking seeing them run out of school during the so-called boom to take labouring jobs, but many of them needed to get that money for family reasons and the idea of studying in college for years made them laugh.

Now they are a little more open to the idea.

When I was at school in the 70s, I did not know it was possible to leave after your Inter., because nobody I knew ever had. It's the same for some of the kids I teach. When I suggest college for them, they think I'm taking the piss.

steddyeddy

spurious wrote: »

I've spent my whole teaching career in one of the geographical areas which has the lowest participation in third-level. It was heart-breaking seeing them run out of school during the so-called boom to take labouring jobs, but many of them needed to get that money for family reasons and the idea of studying in college for years made them laugh.

Now they are a little more open to the idea.

When I was at school in the 70s, I did not know it was possible to leave after your Inter., because nobody I knew ever had. It's the same for some of the kids I teach. When I suggest college for them, they think I'm taking the piss.

Well I'm in the position of demonstrating labs to many of these mature students when they come to college and some of them only really believed in themselves when they walked out with firsts.

If they think you're taking the piss it's your job to change that. We had one teacher who encouraged us to go to college and that was it. The rest discouraged it.

mariaalice

steddyeddy wrote: »

You have never heard any educator say that "working class people don't aspire to education"?

A teacher would never say that, what they would say is the student does not come from an environment where education is supported. Lots of working class parents care very much about their child's education and teachers know that.

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

A teacher would never say that, what they would say is the student does not come from an environment where education is supported. Lots of working class parents care very much about their child's education and teachers know that.

Well they would say that and have done in my experience. What makes you doubt there are bad teachers out there? There are bad scientists, plumbers you name it!

Hersheys

steddyeddy wrote: »

Fair play. Delighted to meet another scientist

I'm a scientist too! Full on nerd!

I was encouraged to go to college but to study a different course to the one I ended up in.

steddyeddy

Hersheys wrote: »

I'm a scientist too! Full on nerd!

I was encouraged to go to college but to study a different course to the one I ended up in.

XXXXX :P! Ha ha fair play! Are you a mental scientist like me or a normal one?

Dave0301

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I'm in the position of demonstrating labs to many of these mature students when they come to college and some of them only really believed in themselves when they walked out with firsts.

If they think you're taking the piss it's your job to change that. We had one teacher who encouraged us to go to college and that was it. The rest discouraged it.

It would be naive to lay this responsibility solely at the doorstep of the teacher. Yes they should play a role in ensuring that if the students are able achieve the grades for college, or if they have aspirations, ensure that they do what they can to help.

However, a student's view on academic matters at both second level and third, are hugely influenced by their parents or family background.