Construction Industry and pay rates

Farmer Pudsey

skafish wrote: »

And yet again I will reiterate the same point to you...... Anybody who is self employed can pay PRSI, and having done so, is entitled to SW. I suggest (yet again) you check your facts before you post.

Only means tested SW and I suggest you check your facts. Selfemployed have little or no access to SW in the way employed workers have. They would have to pass a means test which means that unless they have virtually no savings or other funds,however some employed try to put a bit away for there pension or college funds ( often in the form of property/Cash as they tend not to trust pension funds). This makes it impossible to qualify for SW. they have no access to jobseekers or sick benifit( the government was thinking of changing this)

Dob74

Piriz wrote: »

The Construction Industry Federation hiked up rates of pay during the boom to aprox 25euro per hour for all qualified trades people. Since the collapse of the industry and the economy these rates have remained.

The CIF is regularly lobbying for more investment in construction; however, they have not reduced pay rates to become more competitive..

Why? do you think it should happen? and do you think it ever will happen?

http://www.siptu.ie/divisions/utilitiesconstruction/construction/rearatesfortheconstructionindustry/

The Union rate of pay at the height was 18.60 an hour for a qualified trademens that's paye.
You could become self-employed and get 25 an hour but you won't qualify for holiday pay, social welfare etc since you where self-employed.

Geuze

the_syco wrote: »

What class of PRSI do they have to pay, as opposed to what class of PRSI that they can pay if they want to be able to claim SW should they be unemployed?

Self-employed pay class S, which does entitle them to the State Pensions, but not to JB. That is what they complain about.

Employed pay class A, which means they can get 9 months JB.

Both types of workers can apply for the means-tested JA ("dole").

Dob74

skafish wrote: »

And yet again I will reiterate the same point to you...... Anybody who is self employed can pay PRSI, and having done so, is entitled to SW. I suggest (yet again) you check your facts before you post.

PRSI for self employed is for your contributory pension. JA and JB are means tested so most people wouldn't qualify. So please check your facts.

Geuze

Please note that JB is not means-tested. It is based on having enough PRSI at class A.

Self-employed people pay class S.

See here:

http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/Jobseeker's-Benefit.aspx

Social insurance (PRSI) contributions:

To qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit, you must pay Class A, H or P PRSI contributions. Class A is the one paid by most private sector employees. Class H is paid by soldiers, reservists and temporary army nurses, who do not qualify for Jobseeker's Benefit until they have left the army.

enricoh

theres 2 schools being built near me and both are being built by nordy contractors. pretty much everyone on site is nordy. the union hourly rates here are too high to compete with up north.
a mate looked for a job on one n was told by foreman the pay was 60stg a day! coz the dole is crap up north the lads will work for 300stg a week n travel up n down every day. if u get the dole here, rent allowance n any nixer at all u'd be better off not working

smellyfinger

flutered wrote: »

has any one here have the pleasure of working for BAM, if so you will be able to put posters in the know.

I know a few guys in working for them through an agency in a civils job in Tralee co Kerry and take €8.65 an hour. I also know of guys driving machinery on this site but not working directly for BAM but for a subbie for €8.65 an hour. Years ago when I worked on contract for local authorities we were warned that our subbies had to pay the jlc rates and if it was found out that we were non compliant then we could be kicked off the job. Also the unions were on our backs too looking for their touch too.

flutered

smellyfinger wrote: »

I know a few guys in working for them through an agency in a civils job in Tralee co Kerry and take €8.65 an hour. I also know of guys driving machinery on this site but not working directly for BAM but for a subbie for €8.65 an hour. Years ago when I worked on contract for local authorities we were warned that our subbies had to pay the jlc rates and if it was found out that we were non compliant then we could be kicked off the job. Also the unions were on our backs too looking for their touch too.

thanks for your info, this just proves what people are being asked to work for, tom parland need not ask for any more reductions in peoples pay, that is all ****e from the construction bosses, they are pulling in as much now as they were during the boom.

smellyfinger

i reckon the big construction firms are even more profitable now than during the boom. they have all the rates cut and are slow to pay and the tendering process here is set up that if your turnover is not high then you dont qualify to tender. in ten years there will be probably 10 firms doing all the government work and paying the trades people peanuts. thats progress i suppose

SIX PACK

With the Construction industry picking up. I think it's high time SIPTU fought for a new JLC agreement with the big players.
Expecting Some construction workers to work outdoors in the middle of winter in the freezing wind and rain for €8.65ph is taking the piss.

flutered

SIX PACK wrote: »

With the Construction industry picking up. I think it's high time SIPTU fought for a new JLC agreement with the big players.
Expecting Some construction workers to work outdoors in the middle of winter in the freezing wind and rain for €8.65ph is taking the piss.

according to breaking news.ie some are doing it for less, but we are well on our way to a low cost high tax economy.

gaius c

SIX PACK wrote: »

With the Construction industry picking up. I think it's high time SIPTU fought for a new JLC agreement with the big players.
Expecting Some construction workers to work outdoors in the middle of winter in the freezing wind and rain for €8.65ph is taking the piss.

Why? There's an over-supply of such workers and limited cash to go around.

flutered

gaius c wrote: »

Why? There's an over-supply of such workers and limited cash to go around.

a better reason is required.

SIX PACK

Just seen this on the news. Fair play to those lads for standing up for their rights too much exploitation going on by the Big firms. Luke Fitzpatrick and another guy stuck up on the Tower crane tonight until they get paid properly
http://m.rte.ie/news/2014/1007/650724-school-site/

Packrat

From the reports, those guys are "self employed" with a subbie under the "tax deducted" scheme.

How it works: Main contractor, in this case Rhattigans subcontract a package to a subbie for a fixed price under the new form of govt contract. He then gathers a crew of these guys, and puts them on "self employment" at lower rates per sq metre or per block or whatever way he thinks he can make a profit.
Main contractor pays the subbie (after 60 days if he's lucky) less whatever rate Revenue tell them to deduct (between 0 & 35% depending on how his status is with them)
He pays the gang weekly or fortnightly, - again deducting whatever rate revenue tell him to.
Revenue/ various accountants add up the tabs at year end and either refund or bill people depending on how they did.

Rhattigans have a huge number of these schools to build over the next year, and the unions (who are broke as a joke) want to reestablish some control over the industry.

Most lads working under this system would prefer a weeks wages, but (understandably after the debacles of 2008 - 11, most subbies would rather stop than employ people "direct" ever again.

The bottom line is that NOBODY is making money here, the GCs are still struggling to survive under vastly reduced rates, the subbies (average company lifespan is about 4 years) are barely making a living, and the lads on the lump are getting more than the dole.

Time and a return to profitability/ normal (pre 2000) building industry will sort out most of these issues.

SIX PACK

How did JJ Rhatigan get all those contracts ?
Must of made a big donation to Political party.

Packrat

SIX PACK wrote: »

How did JJ Rhatigan get all those contracts ?
Must of made a big donation to Political party.

:-) That wasn't even still working in 2009.

At least BAM didn't get them.

paul1969

no irish married man can drive kildare to dublin thats married with a couple of kids for 500 euro a week spend 60-100 on petrol pay for parking.there's nothing out of it.Maybe for 3 months work.no holiday pay no pension. that governments made us pay a few year ago.There has to be a decent rate of pay for us and the foreign man.i worked in other countries this place is gone to be a joke.They want u to work maybe 7.30-6 no overtime or nothing off most of them.It suits young lads where 6-7 are living in a house with nothing to keep only there mickeys.

chopper6

There's a "builder" on tradesmen.ie tried to charge a friend of mine 40 euros for putting 4 screws in a wall....another bloke quoted 500 quid to install a stove and was finished in an hour.

Farmer Pudsey

chopper6 wrote: »

There's a "builder" on tradesmen.ie tried to charge a friend of mine 40 euros for putting 4 screws in a wall....another bloke quoted 500 quid to install a stove and was finished in an hour.

I am not exactly sorry for your friend if he could not put the few screws in the wall himself. If you ask some one to do somthing stupid like that you deserve what you get.

Yes there tends to be lads that will try it on pricing stuff. You have to price around. When buying a car you do take first price from a salesman. Some lads consider 100/day huge money for a tradesman taht is a sole trader. However they should remember that he has to take his holiday pay and employer PRSI out of that. He also has to fund any day he is sick and any day he will not have work.

In general these sort of workers find the next 4-8 weeks hard nobody wants you around the house coming up to christmas and few want jobs done early in the new year for money reasons. Great time to bargin with trades men

chopper6

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I am not exactly sorry for your friend if he could not put the few screws in the wall himself. If you ask some one to do somthing stupid like that you deserve what you get.

She couldnt do it herself because she's pregnant.

Farmer Pudsey

chopper6 wrote: »

She couldnt do it herself because she's pregnant.

Even at that it show how useless her friends are

gaius c

chopper6 wrote: »

There's a "builder" on tradesmen.ie tried to charge a friend of mine 40 euros for putting 4 screws in a wall....another bloke quoted 500 quid to install a stove and was finished in an hour.

4 screws in a wall? 10-15 mins work maybe?
How long was the drive to and from the house? 20 mins each way?
That's the bones of an hour. 40 quid an hour isn't actually that extortionate in such a case (basically wasting his time and I'm extremely skeptical on builder costs in general).

Farmer Pudsey

gaius c wrote: »

4 screws in a wall? 10-15 mins work maybe?
How long was the drive to and from the house? 20 mins each way?
That's the bones of an hour. 40 quid an hour isn't actually that extortionate in such a case (basically wasting his time and I'm extremely skeptical on builder costs in general).

You can't allow for tavelling time for sole traders. Just like you cannot allow for what they have to put aside for Holidays, lean periods when they have no work, putting a bot aside in case they get sick, or a bit for a retirement nest egg. You also have to ignore employer's PRSI.

Packrat

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You can't allow for tavelling time for sole traders. Just like you cannot allow for what they have to put aside for Holidays, lean periods when they have no work, putting a bot aside in case they get sick, or a bit for a retirement nest egg. You also have to ignore employer's PRSI.

So all these things that he has to pay for come out of his bottom line then? In that case why not pay him 8.65 so?

Some people here think everyone is creaming it except themselves.
Some people are idiots.

gaius c

There's a similar argument to be had about legal rates for simple admin tasks like photocopying deeds and whatnot that would appear at first glance to be extortionate.
It's expensive because you're taking time from them that they could be using to do more important (and valuable) work.

denlaw

So people don't like paying for a quality trades-person but would have no qualms about forking out for some one who has a "profession"...
my brother is a sparks and spends quite a lot of time fixing others bodges, the weekend sparks,as he calls have read a handyman's annual and can rewire the New extension, same goes for chippys and block layers and plasterers as well...

braddun

I pay my men 50 euro an hour

Qualitymark

I am not exactly sorry for your friend if he could not put the few screws in the wall himself. If you ask some one to do somthing stupid like that you deserve what you get.

Interesting theory of doing business. You're entitled to screw (as it were) someone you feel should be able to do the work you're hired to do?

Farmer Pudsey

Qualitymark wrote: »

Interesting theory of doing business. You're entitled to screw (as it were) someone you feel should be able to do the work you're hired to do?

I am not in business however nowadays loads of young people are helpless. most are incapable of driving a nail or in this case the poster's friend and nobody she knew were capable of putting 4 screws in a wall. As well they failed to price the job, before getting some one to do same. How hard can it be to ask a local chippie, ''look I need 4 pitcure hung'' or whatever the crews are for.

I have got caught myself where I need a tradesman in hurry to do something and I was limited in my ability to price around. I took it on the chin and it was for more than 40 yoyo's. As another poster made the point the lad that did this had to come do the job and get home again. What if this took over an hour of his time.

Go into B&Q and try to buy a small pack of screws or nails it will cost 3-4 euro for most packs. You would buy 10 times as much for a tenner. I do not see lads down outside the door protesting about it. And if you did you get a lot of sympathy I think.

People who need small jobs done need to learn to do them themselves. I know a lad that will do that type of work, he is an electrician, he said he is amazed the amount of times he goes into houses to do a small electrical job and the house wife asks (and pays him) to hang picture, mirrors fix a wardrobe door etc. When pricing a job he charges 70 euro for the first hour and 30/hour after that. The reason being is the first hour has to cover his time pricing work and getting supplies.

Having said all that I be slow getting him to put a screw in the wall for me.