Haddington Road Agreement published

Godge

sean200 wrote: »

what happens if you are a teacher but not in the TUI or the ASTI ???

A good question and not one that anyone has the answer to.

Chris_5339762

I really want to know what happens if you are not in a union. I've disagreed from the start with the unions running this.... if things go to a vote why cant all workers vote?

antoobrien

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I really want to know what happens if you are not in a union.

There's no mention in the text of the sectoral agreements being with specific unions, so it's not unreasonable to assume that everyone in a given sector will be getting the same deal.

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I've disagreed from the start with the unions running this.... if things go to a vote why cant all workers vote?

Who else should be running the negotiations? If the unions have a coverage of 2/3 or more of the employee base it is hardly unreasonable to expect that they would be in a position to represent the views of a majority of employees.

Riskymove

antoobrien wrote: »

Who else should be running the negotiations? If the unions have a coverage of 2/3 or more of the employee base it is hardly unreasonable to expect that they would be in a position to represent the views of a majority of employees.

tbh I heard little protest from non-union members about getting pay increases negotiated by unions

antoobrien

Riskymove wrote: »

tbh I heard little protest from non-union members about getting pay increases negotiated by unions

Indeed. I was working in a few factories as a temp and we were treated the same way as the fully paid up union members (down to the union reps telling us what was a "reasonable request" from management).

notharrypotter

antoobrien wrote: »

a "reasonable request" from management

I believe there is an EU law that enshrines the concept of equal pay for equal work.

Employee status is not a factor.

everyone in a given sector will be getting the same deal

Equal pay for equal work would apply.

woodoo

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I really want to know what happens if you are not in a union. I've disagreed from the start with the unions running this.... if things go to a vote why cant all workers vote?

I'd say if the deal carries for the bulk of unions then it will be deemed to apply to all. So only those in anti unions will fight it and be treated differently.

antoobrien

notharrypotter wrote: »

I believe there is an EU law that enshrines the concept of equal pay for equal work.

Employee status is not a factor.



Equal pay for equal work would apply.

EU law also allows for differences based on seniority etc. Status all else being equal is not an issue that would allow a pay differential.

However the piece you quoted has nothing to do with pay rather what work was done on the floor. The unions regularly overrode management in attempts to force a requirement for overtime. We could easily have produced more product quicker with a couple of minor tweaks to how we worked, but the unions did a paisley on it.

markpb

notharrypotter wrote: »

I believe there is an EU law that enshrines the concept of equal pay for equal work.

Not all employees work equally well but, in the public service, all employees at the same level are paid equally.

ardmacha

I believe there is an EU law that enshrines the concept of equal pay for equal work.

There may well be, but any protection from the enabling legislation is being removed from public servants, although of course the private sector continue to enjoy it. I suppose someone could take a case on the matter.

Count Dooku

ardmacha wrote: »

There may well be, but any protection from the enabling legislation is being removed from public servants, although of course the private sector continue to enjoy it. I suppose someone could take a case on the matter.

Public sector don't need legislation, because they have power over politicians

Jawgap

Count Dooku wrote: »

Public sector don't need legislation, because they have power over politicians

It's true, we do......

creedp

Count Dooku wrote: »

Public sector don't need legislation, because they have power over politicians

You do realise that the 2009 and 2010 PS pay cuts were imposed by legislation and you also do realise that it is the PS that prepared the legislation as instructed by the politicians.

ardmacha

Public sector don't need legislation, because they have power over politicians

Votes have power over politicians, most of these are in the private sector or the welfare sector.
The crap politicians we get are because of voters.

creedp

creedp wrote: »

The highlighted text above shows why we have real problems with reform in the public sector - no Minister will allow reform which impinge on his patch. Who do you think sets up these quangoes? Who do you think decides on the senior people to staff these quangoes? Who do you think decides on getting rid of these quangoes? Very easy of course to blame one quarter all the time ..

Just as a follow on to the above ... while the current Govt are preaching PS reform to achieve greater efficiencies by reducing pay and terms and conditions for others its nice to know that they don't forget whose No.1. They have voted today to take next week off .. just like that .. meaning that all work provisionally done in response to the agenda for next weeks Dail sittings will now be thrown in the bin and will all have to be done all over again for the week they return .. there efficiency for you! Leading by example!!

robp

Jawgap wrote: »

Not thoroughly, but I work in the PS and work regularly and on an ongoing basis with a number of staff-heavy departments and agencies and my experience is that very few are fit for purpose.

They are not over resourced per se, but their staffing and resourcing is not configured to meet service demand. I've described it as 'lumpy' - the wrong people in the wrong places doing the wrong work.

It's also very monolithic - name one agency that is genuinely multi-departmental? Or any non-constitutional body or executive agency that is accountable (there's a laugh!!) to the Oireachtas instead of the minister?

Instead of having agencies and projects directed to meet and address problems, they are configured to suit the parent department and the minister. That leads to duplication, overlap and redundancy (not the good kind).

As a minimum there should be proper redeployment and redundancy programmes in place, otherwise we'll continue to try and bang square pegs into round holes.

Is this an example of this working else where? I am really struggling to be convinced that in 2013 there are still sizeable public sector pockets which are overstaffed, as there are simply so many areas which are developing understaffing. In 2008 Ireland's public sector was at the OCED average and by 2011 the proportion of public sector compared to the total population was below 2001 levels. I am sure the staff shortages are highly variable and some less important in their work then others, even some insignificant but it is very widespread.

Jawgap

robp wrote: »

Is this an example of this working else where? I am really struggling to be convinced that in 2013 there are still sizeable public sector pockets which are overstaffed, as there are simply so many areas which are developing understaffing. In 2008 Ireland's public sector was at the OCED average and by 2011 the proportion of public sector compared to the total population was below 2001 levels. I am sure the staff shortages are highly variable and some less important in their work then others, even some insignificant but it is very widespread.

DAFM - because of the move to single farm payments,several hundred, if not over a thousand staff with little or nothing to do.

HSE - when the health boards were merged there were no redundancies and there are still admin pockets and officers with chronic over-staffing problems.

Local Authorities - there are about 32 LAs in the country for a population of 4 million or so - that's 32 county managers and countless directors of services and so on - the Birmingham metro area in the UK has a slightly smaller population and they get by with just 8 LAs. Scotland also has 32 LAs for a population of 5 million and its worth noting that LAs provide more and better services than do LAs in Ireland.

And that's even before you get to talking about which services should be contracted out or mutualised.

OECD figures show that compared to other countries we have low numbers in the public sector, but the comparisons consistently fail to compensate for the fact that the countries we are compared with (mostly the Nordic ones and Belgium) are members of NATO and spend (as a % of GDP) 4 to 5 times what we do on defence. The comparisons also fail to take account of the fact that we have single tier policing in Ireland.

Jawgap

Kieran Allen's take on the HRA:

Column: The Haddington Road deal is just the same as the last, with a few tweaks

"WHAT IS IT about democracy in Ireland? When people vote and give the wrong answer, they are asked to vote again. The government did it with the Lisbon Treaty referendum and now the union leaders are doing the same with the Croke Park proposals.

Some ‘tweaks’ have been made on the last version. Clever people with calculators have worked out how many concessions need to be given to particular groups to ‘get it over the line’.

But the overall equation remains the same. The government is tearing up an existing agreement to take another €1 billion from the pay and pensions of public sector workers. The original Croke Park 1 was not due to run out until mid 2014."

tiredofthis

The PSEU have written to members saying that they have signed the Haddington Road Agreement and registered it with the Labour Relations Commission. Does anyone know if there is a public register of union/employer agreements? I've asked the LRC but no reply so far.

notharrypotter

The Labour court has a search facility if it helps.

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labour.nsf/LookupPageLink/HomeRecommendations

What is

single tier policing

?

tiredofthis

notharrypotter wrote: »

The Labour court has a search facility if it helps.

http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labour.nsf/LookupPageLink/HomeRecommendations

What is
?

Thanks for the suggestion. I can't find agreements using the search, just recommendations. LRC have not replied. Transparency is not in the LRC "
"mission/goals etc".

The PSEU have now written to members to say that there will be a ballot, but there's no sign of the voting papers. It's strange - can they unregister an agreement?

The Croke Park 2 agreement (accepted by a majority of PSEU members) said that the ICTU public services committee would be part of the implementation/monitoring body. Haddington Road has the same clause. UNITE has rejected Haddington Road and other unions may do so. Can ICTU just put together a public services committee consisting of the public service unions who have signed up to Haddington Road?

I believe that single-tier policing means we have a national police force. UK has a number of police forces, each with its own Chief Police Officer. The nearest thing to a national police authority is the Association of Chief Police Officers.

Other countries, such as Italy have several police forces which have different responsibilities - although I believe that they are all national forces.

Mr Cumulonimbus

SIPTU votes yes by 76% to 24%. The INTO voted yes by 63% to 37% earlier in the week.

Jawgap

I give it 18 months tops before the government reneges..........and by this time next year they'll have started pleading inability to restore salaries despite promising to do so.

creedp

Jawgap wrote: »

I give it 18 months tops before the government reneges..........and by this time next year they'll have started pleading inability to restore salaries despite promising to do so.

I agree .. that was so pathetic about this whole process ... the Govt is coercing people to vote to agree a deal that is replacing a deal reneged on by the same Govt .. .what credibility could the process have?

woodoo

creedp wrote: »

I agree .. that was so pathetic about this whole process ... the Govt is coercing people to vote to agree a deal that is replacing a deal reneged on by the same Govt .. .what credibility could the process have?

I see this one last until its final year. Staff can go back to their old hours if they renege.

On a personal level my increments continue so i'm quite happy.

ikarie

woodoo wrote: »

I see this one last until its final year. Staff can go back to their old hours if they renege.

On a personal level my increments continue so i'm quite happy.

It doesn't matter if they renege, its written into law, you signed up to a clause in the emergency legislation under collective bargaining, if all bets are off then the emergency legislation just comes back into force = pay cuts, increment freezes, longer hours, etc. you'll NEVER get your job conditions back and redundancies will appear in the very near future because basically your job contracts under the legislation are worthless and you voted for this!

Has anyone here even read the emergency legislation act and its modified additions, it's scary stuff!
Remember FG despises the PS/CS and ALL unions and Labour is impotent in this matter.

If I had been PS or CS I'd be out the door right now, because it seems between banks and Government any Irish contracts of any discription are worthless.

ardmacha

People here rant on about unions this and unions that. The government abolished contract law and employment law built up over a century (bar the EU working hours directive) as it applies to the PS and the unions don't seem to even object.

notharrypotter

I believe the phrase you are looking for is "never waste a good recession".

Also when your employer can change your terms and conditions at the stroke of a pen and there is no one else to appeal to you are in a very poor position.

IBEC and its ilk are rubbing their hands with glee.

Once they have "sorted" the Civil Service and Public service the rest of the workforce is next.

Happy days

donegal11

ardmacha wrote: »

People here rant on about unions this and unions that. The government abolished contract law and employment law built up over a century (bar the EU working hours directive) as it applies to the PS and the unions don't seem to even object.

Did nurses and teachers abolish contract law when they went on strike and achieved a reduced working week and newly created S&S payments, and benchmarking increasing wages again. You can choose when to cry about contract/employment law but don't expect anyone to care when enhanced boom time conditions and wages are reduced according.

Fizzical

donegal11 wrote: »

Did nurses and teachers abolish contract law when they went on strike and achieved a reduced working week and newly created S&S payments, and benchmarking increasing wages again. You can choose when to cry about contract/employment law but don't expect anyone to care when enhanced boom time conditions and wages are reduced according.

Did you read the legislation? No, didn't think so.

This section has effect notwithstanding—
(a) any provision by or under—
(i) any other Act,
(ii) any statute or other document to like effect of a university or other third level institution,
(iii) any circular or instrument or other document,
(iv) any written agreement or contractual arrangement,
or
(b) any verbal agreement, arrangement or understanding or any expectation.